/lit/ - Literature

Is that unique to America?

>>15625472
Why is it unique?

>>15625472
I don't understand. What's so bad with this?

>>15625472
Replace America with literally any country in the world and his argument still stands, this is clearly more an attack on universal ideals of masculinity rather than on America itself

I'm a fan of DFW, but this is not strictly an American thing

>>15625472
He looks like a hippie. Toss him into a reactor.

American culture isn't the only offender but you could argue it is the worst one.

>>15625512
Newfag

>>15625472
Yeah? I mean look at what the closest real-world analogues for American superheroes are. Musk is seen as iron man and wants a treehouse on mars. Suprise surprise, he alternates between acting like a dork and a demagogue. And then you see the caprain americas of the world and it tends to get worse. Not that this is a uniquely american thing.

>>15625488
>>15625491
>>15625496
I think he’s probably referring to American culture which you can infer from around the world such as movies, tv and video games which reinforce these issues of masculinity he’s talking about

>>15625526
Is that your psychoanalysis on celebrities or?

>>15625512
If he was wearing a lace-up henley and holding a sword engraved with runic characters, you would worship him

>>15625472
any civilized country.

>>15625530
Esl post
S
L
P
O
S
T

>>15625472
Hang in there David.

>>15625488
>>15625501
>>15625541
OP here - I posted this quote once before and the responses turned into a debate about whether this was an exclusively American thing or not. I'm hoping to treat it as a more general, modern observation about masculinity in this thread, as that aforementioned "America vs. the world" debate sort of derailed the discussion. While I think American culture elevates this ideal to new heights, I'm willing to concede it is fairly universal so even if you don't agree with that small excerpt about America I'd prefer if that doesn't became the central topic again. No hate, just wanted to get that out of the way.

>>15625524
I'm sorry anon. I'll go back lurking.

>>15625545
Nice contribution to the thread faggot fuck you

>>15625472
Why are men so deluded? Have liberal feminists really convinced you that patriarchy doesn't benefit you and abolishing it is going to make you happier? You were born so the game is rigged in your favor, fucking play it, and if you decide it's a terrible game and should be abolished do it out of respect for the people who have lost the most because of it, not because you're incapable of being a functioning adult

>>15625472
What’s wrong with any of that exactly? We are all competing regardless of whether or not it hurts DFW’s feelings; to deny that is to willingly shoot yourself in the foot while everyone else sprints towards the finish line

>>15625472
This isn't something culture brainwashes into people. What happens is that a minority of men are naturally like that, and other men defer to them and women are attracted to them, so many other men copy the behavior.

the negation of this is the truth. Reminder DFW is an elite and wrote books for other elites and never had a real job other than teaching the craft of writing tto elites, to younger elites. The guy is an establishment blowhard who took 1000 pages to say the same thing videodrome did with some criticism of academic fiction thrown in.

>>15625472
>competitiveness instead of concert

Competitiveness is healthy to a certain degree

>dominating others through intelligence or will

There's nothing wrong with this.

>being strong

LITERALLY nothing wrong with this.

>not showing your true emotions

Why would you want to? So that you can be like women and constantly backstab each other with little tidbits of intimate info you've gathered from the moments of weakness you've been a witness to?

>depending on others seeing you as a real man

While this has a certain point, the outsourcing of the evaluation of masculinity serves as a safeguard against wonky, personal definitions of masculinity that are willingly distorted for one reason or another.

>seeing your own value solely in terms of accomplishments

What else are you supposed to measure it in?

>being obsessed with your career or income

If it's not career or income it's something else. To be a man is to be obsessed.

I'm starting to believe angl*s are literally allergic to ideals. If a non-anglo fails to live up to the certain ideal, he usually starts to blame himself, not the ideal - while the anglo thinks it's the ideal that is faulty, not himself.

>>15625785
The writing itself is excellent. I really couldn't care less about whatever overarching concept it's presenting.

Huge DFW fan but this was one thing he was categorically wrong about, not just because those are universal values, but because parenting and culture does fucking NOTHING to prevent people into growing into adults who care about shit like status and being a 'real man'.

>>15625799
that's insane. his whole deal is fighting against that attitude. read flaubert or james instead if you want that

>>15625797
>r*ddit spacing

>>15625472
typical gen x slackerism lol. what a walking meme holy shit
>*burrrp*
>now clerks, THAT was a movie i tell ya!

>>15625797
Congrats you just proved his entire point

>>15625838
What?

>>15625537
if he was larping with a rune sword he probably wouldn't be saying stupid shit like 'competition bad masculinity social costruct hurrrr"

>>15625530
The ideology of american culture today is woke lgbtqiasjwtfnpc consumerism. If anything masculinity is stigmatized because it poses a threat to the corporate monoculture. But dont worry, DFW is consigned to the bin with the rest of the western cannon, soon you will be allowed to read nothing but diverse YA and comic books.

What globohomo in wants is a world of deracinated cattle with pink hair, identity has been reduced to consuming product bleating ideological newspeak and proudly getting fucked in the ass.

>>15625859

>>15625472
>>15625488
England's private schools were the ones who truly invented that in its colonial era.

>>15625707
I contributed, I got restated op

>>15625920
>newspeak
Fucking schizos never learn no matter how often they're schooled.

>>15625636
Lol, i remember when i derailed, scrap that, acurrately critiqued, that thread.

>>15625636
>OP here - I posted this quote once before and the responses turned into a debate about whether this was an exclusively American thing or not. I'm hoping to treat it as a more general, modern observation about masculinity in this thread, as that aforementioned "America vs. the world" debate sort of derailed the discussion. While I think American culture elevates this ideal to new heights, I'm willing to concede it is fairly universal so even if you don't agree with that small excerpt about America I'd prefer if that doesn't became the central topic again.

So you literally had this thread get 'derailed' once because an assload of people disagreed with one of the main premises.. And you reposted it without addressing said premise and expected a different result?

>>15625741
The people who have lost the most in patriarchy are still men, regardless of your opinions on it.

>>15625472
Did he go on to explain why it was so?

>>15625488
no, thats completely delusional to think it's unique to america and cements my thesis that DFW was an american oaf

>>15626372
>cements my thesis that DFW was an american oaf

Can you please elaborate? I'm not the anon you replied to but my opinion on him is fairly neutral so far. Would be interesting to hear your conclusions if you have a more in-depth understanding.

>>15625838
You're either a woman or have been subverted by their way of arguing.
Anyone who insists that response to unfounded criticism is evidence that such criticism is correct deserves a ticket to der Strafkolonie

>>15626404
>revel in violence and competition
>muh culture muh tradition muh dying communities
Mutts are a blight on this Earth.

>>15626227
DFW was an American writer whose insights obviously came from his perspective as an American. That doesn't discredit his entire point. I wanted to pose the quote unaltered instead of interjecting my own mixed thoughts on one aspect - it's not like I explicitly said he was right or wrong. There's plenty more to unpack in this quote, if that's all you want to focus on then that's your choice.

>>15625636
okay. TV is opium for the masses. People must watch it, enjoy it, so CIA pushes its advertisements, propaganda, and others push their advertisements, to sell you shit. You use TV so kids don't nag you. TV shows only positive things. TV shows to women only "real men", the way as their autism wants to see it. You want sweet lies you get it. TV culture created schizophrenic view on reality, people censored everything they don't like, and censored reality, turned blind eye to half of it.

>>15625817
I can read things in whatever way I so desire.

DFW is the best example of what happens when you are raised in an upper-middle class household in America as a male. Literally the most KEKED social class, especially because they are hardcore feminists.

>>15625495
There are literally more important things in life. Also remaining within the idealogical parameters you’re born and conditioned into rots the soul. You gotta break free and define your own sense of self, not just masculinity, regardless if that coincides with any cultural values.

>>15626485
>idealogical parameters you’re born and conditioned into rots the soul
So, you're under the assumption that masculinity is artificial and not natural.

>>15626496
American hyper-masculinity is a caricature of masculinity

>>15626496
No edgelord. I’m under the assumption that any cultural value is on the chopping block and that real masculinity begins with ruthlessly exorcising everything within yourself that isn’t your own. Insofar as their is a consensus about masculinity, it’s suspect. To maintain otherwise is to choose either ignorance or cuckoldry.

>>15626477
How did his ideas reflect being coddled or part of the upper middle class? He's Gen X, and was never hardcore feminist or SJW

>>15626579
What did I say that was edgy?

>>15626592
You presented a dichotomy typical of people trying to bait.

>>15626485
>more important things
Such as?
I mean, don’t get me wrong, I’m not all for money, but he throws career and success in there— those are pretty important things

>>15626619
Health, vitality, spiritual growth, values, creation.

>>15626603
Honestly sorry anon, I wasn't trying to bait, that is what I got when I first read what you posted. I thought you were arguing that the traits listed in the OP are not naturally present in masculinity. So, instead you're saying don't let masculinity be the only thing that defines you, is that correct?

>>15626632
>spiritual growth
I mean I listen to Enya too dude but don't drink the Kool-aid

>>15626638

>>15626404
>der Strafkolonie
It's "die Strafkolonie", not "der".

>>15626636
Sure, whatever makes you feel better

>>15626632
And, just to play devils advocate, are these good because they are not masculine? Like, if I am creative with an eye for competitiveness does that negate the value of the virtue?

>>15626656
>are these good because they are not masculine
My god you’ve got a one-track mind. No. Those have nothing to do with masculinity. They supersede it entirely.

>if I am creative with an eye for competitiveness does that negate the value of the virtue?
I’m sorry when did we start discussing virtue ethics?

>>15626681
>My god you’ve got a one-track mind.
Uh, does he OP not mention masculinity? ffs if you’re so sensitive to even being asked a question just don’t reply
>the second part
great. Thought you’d actually want to converse, guess you’re just a prick.

>>15626656
They are the grounds for any true masculinity to take root. If your self-worth is fed by and dependent on external supports like career and worldly success, you are deficient.

>>15626703
Hey do me a favor and go fuck yourself faggot. You’re clearly a summerfag who hasn’t the slightest scope of the words he’s using. Fuck off back to /v/.

>>15626654
I guess I still got it wrong.

>>15626707
Then, just cause you’re being more interesting than >>15626681>>15626715 this stupid fuck

What is it in your opinion about focusing on career primarily (and if it’s not your opinion my bad) that makes one dependent on these external, frivolous things? For lack of a better way: can I be a good career man and not be a superficial loser?

>>15626485

What do you mean "break free"? I don't get when individualists talk about stuff in extremist terms like this.

Its IMPOSSIBLE for you to shake off the influences of society and "break free & define your own sense of sense". Everything you do, from your mannerisms, linguistic idiosyncrasies, the idioms you use to think, the clothes you wear, were all designed by someone else. You can't possibly just "disregard all those things".

There is no self without the rest of society.

>>15626729
Very simple test: if I take it away, what's left over? Extrapolate from your experience now your reaction to being deprived these things. If you recoil at the thought (of losing your status, things, girlfriend, whatever man), you are deficient.

Career men typically can only be career men in and through their egoic investment in their career, because that's exactly what it takes to be successful. Hard to be CEO when your indifferent to business as a principle.

>>15626737
You can always minimize your conditioning. Your post is defeatist.

>>15626754

It's only "defeatist" in the sense that you think what I am saying is a defeat. I accept that my culture influences me and I think I am better for it.

For some reason you think that all "authentic" meaning can only come from within. But my point is that meaning from within cannot possibly be disentangled from the opinions of society.

Hell, even this individualist stance you are taking is a western idea. I doubt that many people in Eastern culture have the same extreme idea as you, which just proves that even the act of being an individualist is, in a certain way, conformist.

>>15626715
try this newfriend: >>>/v/

>>15626776

sure but can you triforce?

>>15626772
And the meaning from without cannot possibly be disentangled from the inner meanings reified into law and social rules. The rule doesn't precede the moral intuition, it just formalizes. Everything you're saying is postmodernism 101 - man is exhausted by social determinations - so you'll forgive me if I'm not exactly convinced.

>>15626784
Δ
ΔΔ

the best I can do
t. phoneposting scum

>>15626787

What you are saying here seems reasonable. But my question still stands - how can you meaningfully separate internal and external values?

>>15626729
>”stupid fuck”
>doesnt know what the fuck he is talking about and asking retarded questions
Kys dumb nigger. I’ll mop the floor with your misguided ass.

>>15626805
Only by encountering their limitations through a personal crisis, and it's almost always the superficial external rules that are first to go (even if I agree you have to de-program yourself, you're not going to de-program the rule that says you don't grope women in public - it is socially determined and socially enforced but it is still eminently reasonable)

>>15626817
stupid fuck

>>15626847
based

>>15626821

So what is left behind after this crisis? If I claimed to you that, after peeling off the superficialities, what you'd be left with is a set of values which exist primarily due to a (somewhat arbitrary) external influence of society, would you claim that those values are not actually "external"? That the degree to which they appear external actually just represents a necessary symbiosis of individualist "truth" and the social rules that manifest themselves after that truth diffuses into society?

If I'm not misinterpreting you, that seems to assume some kind of fixed human truth that doesn't vary across societies. Is that the truth you are looking for?

>>15626737
>What do you mean "break free"?
Seize the means of production of course.

>>15625472
Now I know why he killeded himself. What a faggot. Still like him tho

>>15626869
No, it would be an individual truth, that is, only the truths and values that I myself can create, no one else. That I need society's springboard to get there doesn't invalidate it, anymore than I am still a part of my mother because I grew in her womb. The only absolutely unique individuals are monads floating in the divine void. The rest of us will have to make due. The basic idea is this: the universal truth is always hostile to, or in any case an attenuation of, the individual's truth.

>>15626421
You already posted it once unaltered and watched the thread get 'derailed.' You're an idiot for expecting a different result with the same starting material.

>>15626899

>That I need society's springboard to get there doesn't invalidate it, anymore than I am still a part of my mother because I grew in her womb.

This clarifies things well. It is not independent truth (which is what I assumed), it is more like unique truth.

>>15626889
>What a faggot.

Why? Because he was sincere enough to talk about problems other people normally don't open up about and get very defensive over - as evidenced by this thread?

>>15626939
Good distinction.

It's a constant push-and-pull between the consistency of the field and the individuality of its units.

>>15625472
DFW was never right about anything. He's like a gender swapped Ayn Rand.

Honestly? DFW seems to have fabricated events to write about in his journalism that never actually happened because they made for better writing than what he actually watched transpire. He drew pedants, poseurs, and pseudo-intellectuals to him because he was on some level something of those things. I don't really care what cultural critiques he concocted because they were almost certainly not rooted in anything more than some contrivance that he invented so that he could make those very critiques.

I know that DFW is viewed as some kind of figure of importance by a lot of people but I really cannot bring myself to take him seriously.

>>15626966
>comparing DFW to Ayn Rand

Ayn Rand had a huge yet damaging influence. People barely truly pay attention to DFW and just most dismiss him easily. Everything he said about irony was right.

>>15627018
He didn't invent post-modernism or our toxic culture or irony yet he critiqued both. It's one thing to deny his commentary but you're pretending he wrote about self-made issues when that's a huge stretch.

>>15627031
Look up what we now know about DFW's coverage of a particularly famous tennis match before the internet era. He invented stuff.

you snowflakes get triggered over everything. IM NEVER BUYING GILLETTE BRAND MACH 3 PROGLIDE RAZORS EVER AGAIN. I'M MENTALLY AND EMOTIONALLY HEALTHY

>>15625524
>t. No discerning talent.

I hate the revitalized nu masculinity bullshit that's come out of /pol/ anti woke culture, too many dweebs think being masculine is being a complete asshole towards other males. I'm a fairly introspective and sensitive male, it's nice when I can connect with another guy without them being overly aggressive and harsh for no reason.

>>15627328
/pol/mites buy into the very mythology that's corroded their culture from the inside, there is nothing funnier than some sped crying about jews but defending capitalism in the same breath.

>>15625472
These are all universal masculine virtues except for maybe "competitiveness instead of concert". Even then, all guys are competitive, just not at the expense of their friendships.

For a more in-depth take read "Raffles and Miss Blandish"

https://orwell.ru/library/reviews/chase/english/e_bland

Bump

If this is true, why are americans so sissified and pathetic?

>>15625488
Yes. On the mediterranean the culture is, in general, very different. Being a man means you have many women, but freedom of work and enjoying life is infinitely more important than income. You can have an income that quadruples mine, but if you are at someone's service and I am my own boss, I am more respected than you are. If I manage my time however I want, and I don't have to work when other people tell me, I am more respected than you are. I get more women. Being accomplished is not nearly as important as not being bossed around. The point is: life is pretty nice down here even if you are not rich. You can buy a boat, or a sport car, but nobody gives a fuck if at the end of the day you can't go out partying whenever you want, or go out drinking coffee in the morning instead of going to work, or in general enjoying life instead of slaving yourself off for someone.
This is why work ethic is very poor. Nobody gives a shit about being good at their job. Having a job and not having to to do much, not being bossed around and being free to hedonistically enjoy your life is more valued than making 500k a year for a bank and buying a yacht you can use for three weeks a year. You get way more pussy by having little money and going out every night of the week, making a little trip now and then, and skipping work whenever you feel like it. And at the end of the day, on the mediterranean, that's all that matters: how much you can steal without being caught, how much time you can take for yourself away from your duties, how much you can enjoy life instead of being in pain.
Do your job poorly and quickly and then go out to enjoy good food, nice women, and whatever the hell you like to do for the rest of the day. Not working, or not having to work, is what makes you respected, way more than how much money you have behind you.

>>15628248
>Exerting your will upon others is bad. You should never make difficult decisions, as it might make people uncomfortable.
>Do not make eye contact with women or children, as this may make them feel uncomfortable. Please pay for everything and protect them though.
>Violence is never the answer. Go play some Battlefield.
>Overindulge in every excess, because you can and should. Don't worry about looking or feeling good. The dad bod is totes in this year.
>The modern world makes it hard to feel like a man. You don't wanna use this pussy soap and smell like a bitch, do you? Buy our new man-scented soap. It smells like hardwood and gear oil. The package is blue, not pink, 'cause pink is gay. What are you, a woman?
>Buy a truck and/or expensive sports car that you'll use to sit in traffic and maybe take out for a spin every three months. These are very manly cars. You can tell by the angles.

>>15625741
> there are commonly accepted rules, like "women and children first", that exhort you to put a woman's life before your own, and you are expected to be willing to sacrifice yourself in the event of war
> patriarchy benefits you and the game is rigged in your favor

>>15628278
What do you mean by Mediterranean? From what I know, work ethic and duty to family/society/dependents are huge parts of Mediterranean culture and masculinity.

>>15628306
>there are commonly accepted rules, like "this is a man's job" applying to most important positions
>patriarchy does not benefit you

>>15628331
The comment I replied to made it sound as though males only benefit from patriarchal arrangements, such that they could never rationally contemplate their abolition, which is just not true. If males are offered a trade-off between more life-threatening situations and more positions of power, it's not immediately obvious that it's such a sweet deal.

>>15628376
Not him, but you're genuinely retarded if you think that it's bad that the strongest members of society are expected to sacrifice themselves for the rest. This isn't even a matter of patriarchy. It's what makes every single institution function. Those who can do better must not only do so, but pass on the skills and knowledge to do so to their successors.

>>15628326
Italy, Greece and Spain, possibly Turkey. Family is important, but I don't understand what you mean by society/dependents. Work ethic is, generally speaking, very poor. Working a lot and being hard workers and "winning" over others through hard works are not values. Getting yourself space for enjoying life through cheating, on the other hand, is. The idea of "family" and "social relationships" is simlar to the roman clientes system: you need to be inserted in a network of people you can get stuff from (be it parents, friends, politicians, powerful people, ecc.). But even the powerful are trying to have as much as possible by doing as little as possible. People despise everyone who gets their ass busted for something. Having lots of sex and not having to work are the main things that characterize you as a man. You "win" by having these things, rather than simply being rich or by "achieving" things in your life. And the more you cheat to have them, that is, the less you work to have them, the more respected you are.

>>15628407
I'm not the guy you're replying to, but are you sure you're not just a lowlife who happens to hang out with other lowlifes?

>>15628407
I get what you mean but I'd argue it's more about being coy and maximizing success rather than achieving it as easily/lazily as possible. What I mean by duty society and dependents was that I see a lot of emphasis in Mediterranean culture on the importance of being productive and contributing to society and providing for those who rely on you.

>>15628386
It's trivially true that it's bad for an organism to engage in acts of genuine self-sacrifice. That's why the very existence of altruism is a controversial topic when not discussing close relatives (in the words of Haldane, "I would lay down my life for two brothers or eight cousins"; note, not "for the rest"). The fact that I need to point this out to you makes clear who is "genuinely retarded" here.

>>15626899
>The basic idea is this: the universal truth is always hostile to, or in any case an attenuation of, the individual's truth

Different anon here. Will you expand on this a little?

>>15625488
America is the only country with no culture. Read some jung and you understand why they need to cling to such things

>>15628463
Sorry mate, but you're retarded and your idea of evolutionary biology is completely wrong. Sacrifice for one's community is not an act of altruism. Sacrifice for a foreign community is.

>>15628412
No, I have been living abroad in the last five years, I have a normal and honest job, and have adapted to the reality of northern Europeans having to work. But I have met many people, rich and poor, from my home country, who respond to the description. Mediterraneans with solid work ethics are very rare, and usually leave their countries of origin when they can to go north.

>>15628436
I'd object to that. Of course you have people you are supposed to provide for. But "being productive" is absolutely unimportant, and there is great proud shown at every level of society (from the lawyer evading his taxes and getting easy money from a quick cause defending big corporations for firing poor people, to the politician with 3% of the votes who is a political nonentity but still gets free money from the state, to the university professor sitting on his ass and giving the highest possible grade to all his students without correcting exams because nobody checks on the quality of his courses) in being able to cheat so that you are not working and still getting stuff out of it. Most people are proud of being able to dodge work of any kind. This is not necessarily about being lazy, because they can work a lot on other things (hobbies or whatever). The point is doing what you want and dodge whatever imposed duty you have. Family is also very much a facade: you need it as a network, and you respect it as useful for you, but in mediterranean culture cheating on your partner is a rather common practice nobody gives much moral weight to. Morally speaking, there is a lot of more or less explicit nihilism in this way of living.
It's like catholic religion: everybody's catholic, but only old ladies go to mass. Why? The Church is still very powerful and can help for a number of reasons, so act catholic. But you don't go as far as embracing any idea, or activity, beyond the sheer pragmatic advantages it can give you in enjoying your life while doing as little imposed work as you humanly can.

>>15628474
As I said, there are scenarios where sacrifice can make some theoretic sense. But such scenarios are limited. Very limited. That's why I quoted Haldane's remark about two brothers and eight cousins. The math simply doesn't work beyond that (that's, incidentally, why the "gay uncle" theory makes no sense.). It most certainly doesn't work in an environment where "your community" is taken to include people you share no genes with - many such people. (Need I remind you that the rule regarding women and children applies universally, not just to your woman and your child?)

>>15628499
Are you from a post-Commie country?

>>15626869
Why are you trying so hard not to think? It's clear that you are not masculine and therefore don't understand what you are doing. Please don't take this as an insult but try to make it a learning experience. Read more books and feed your mind. Only then you can understand.

>>15626889
Yeah, fuck that suicidal faggot, hope he burns in Hell.

>>15626913
Never heard of quarks before buddy?

>>15626957
Because he was a weak player, game over, he can go be a faggot in hell.

>>15628507
I don't give a damn about Haldane and his remark. You are wrong. To sacrifice for the community to which one belongs, and to which one owes everything in one's life, is not illogical. What is illogical, on the other hand, is to adopt such a logic without taking it to its ultimate conclusion. That is, that the members of the professions of policeman, soldier, bodyguard, special agent, and every single other line of work that requires sacrifice have as little reason to protect you and the entirety of their society as you claim you do to protect anyone else. The result of this would be extremely inconvenient to disgusting parasites like yourself, since it would leave you at the mercy of anyone stronger, more popular, or possessed of a larger family with greater weapons and stronger men than you. But you would never draw such an obvious conclusion. Nope, you're in favor of rational conclusions based on the most recent discoveries in evolutionary biology, but only when they justify your own opposition to human society as it has evolved across the entirety of the planet, and only when it fits snugly within the framework of the contemporary centralized state with its robust police functions.
tl;dr You are a faggot. I don't care what you have to do to stop being a faggot. Just stop it.

>>15627022
Ayn Rand is the most important philosopher of at least the 20th century and her philosophy changed the world for the better.

>>15628515
I'm Italian

>>15628537
You can become angry all you want but this only shows you how I am right. You have to take a moment to read all the posts and think about what sort of loser you are.

>>15628544
Except she's virtually unkown except for circles of rich college kids finding excuses to justifying being assholes. Also she's ridiculed by every single academic philosopher I have met, both rightwing and leftwing.

>>15628554
So you are still a commie.

>>15628499
pretty based social values imo

>>15628558
Haha you mad loser lol

>>15628537
Haldane was one of the most important evolutionary biologists in the history of the field. It's not surprising that you're dismissive of him. Hell, I wouldn't be too surprised to learn that you have no idea who he was; your mediocre education has inveigled you into thinking that you must express an opinion, even if you know nothing. It remains trivially true that your "community" is not your blood in modern societies, and that therefore your reasoning makes no sense. Your ignorance and lack of ability to see commonsensical conclusions make it impossible to have a discussion with you, so I shall stop now.

>>15625472
He doesn't really think that America is the only place in the world with perceptions of masculinity does he? No wonder his writing is so fucking bad, he never started with the Greeks. Now he's mad at the US because he failed at being a man.

>>15628562
Jesus Crist was ridiculed too. Some people are just too weak to see the truth before them and they will believe their own lies. People that ridicule Randian thought just don't understand it or are afraid to admit that they are not the same as the Randian heroes of this world.

>>15628576
No, I am sitting here in one of my houses, laughing at you.

>>15628582
B-BUT MY OLD EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGISTS! YOU CAN'T JUST DISMISS WHAT SOME GUY FROM THE FIRST HALF OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY HAD TO SAY!
Whatever helps you sleep better at night, man.

>>15628608
You mean your mum's house?

>>15628613
Why do you ridicule the things that you do not understand?

>>15628617
My mother died of Corona.

>>15628624
The one who fails to understand is you. You think you can leap from scrap phrases produced in the earliest years of evolutionary biology to discussions about human society as a whole. Has it ever occurred to you that most societies for much of human history have consisted of people who share little, if any, blood links? How on Earth do you propose to explain the willingness of members of these societies to fight and die for people who are not directly related to them with your mined quotes and MGTOW philosophy? And how do you propose to explain the continued existence of such norms in societies that have meticulously destroyed all forms of patriarchal power over the past 150 years?

>>15625797
Competitiveness that is not centered on a team or a community leads to people being atomized and alone. Your view would destroy loyalty, family, and fraternity for the sake of "winning".
Dominating others denies their abilities, and breeds resentment, isolating a leader from their subordinates. Your view would see workers become slaves, and further erode the virtues of loyalty.
Strength only exists relative to others, and only aids when used to help a community.
Hiding one's true emotions isn't about hiding tears when you stub your toe. All heroes exalt, rage, cry, and weep. These emotions are not bad things. In your world an angry man must hold his tongue for fearing of being fired by a domineering middle manager instead of speaking his mind and actually solving a dispute.
Depending on others seeing you as a real man implies there is no initiation to manhood. You must constantly be validated or lose your grasp over the masculine virtues. In your world this constant approval forces the man to bend his will to fit the atomized world around him.
Accomplishments only exist relative to a personal goal or a community. Who defines these things?
In the modern world career and income are presented as the only acceptable options. Great men of the past followed their passion for writing, philosophy, and art without regards to monetary success. Such people surely exist today, but will we notice their works focusing on solely on our material wealth?

>>15628626
That explains why the house is in your name.

>>15626850
(you)

>>15628566
I personally am leftwing leaning, the country has been prominently rightwing in the last 30 years. Center-right wing from 90s to 2010s, with a center government before it. After the 2010s, we have been leaning more and more towards extreme rightwing.
The poor work ethic is not politically aligned, and it is practiced by both left and right, the left focusing on not working and the right on downright stealing as much as possible. Corruption is widespread at every level and in every aspect of life, from politics to finding a tiny job in your equally tiny home town.
Take Matteo Salvini, current extreme rightwing leader: he never graduated from university and he publicly states how proud he is to never have studied. Trump, for as stupid as he may be, at least prouds himself at having had good education. In Italy it's the opposite: politicians, with very few exception (and especially on the right) proud themselves in NOT having had education. They ridicule studying and hard work. Salvini literally calls his adversaries (virologists, scientits, and other kind of people trying to rationally discuss how to handle a global pandemic) the "big professors", and know-it-all who thinks they know everything because they studied. I have lived in the US, UK, Germany and France, and among these countries there is none where putting effort into anything is as despised as it is in Italy.
It really has nothing to do with political leanings, it's a cultural attitude. That said, we still have the best food in the world.

>>15628648
Is this why the few Italians that I've met here in America have a positive view of fascism?

>>15628640
Yeah, cool, ain't it. What do you get when your mum dies? Her collection of used condoms?

>>15628648
>scientits
lel
Scousers are fairly proud of not working. In Italy is the non-education pride accompanied by the idea that time spent not working is for family, non-workplace interests, things like sports and arts?

>>15628597
By that argument you can basically legitimize every idiot who says anything and gets ridiculed. I can assure you that the percentage of people with ridiculous ideas who became completely obscure in the course of history is significantly higher than that of those who are remembered, so betting on the test of time does not play in your advantage in any way (nor does it give you any positive point, you're basically just saying "we'll see who's right!").

On the other hand, all present evidence (i.e. experts studying this stuff) suggests that her brand of utilitarianism is philosophically untenable, universally ridiculed, and, which is maybe her worst crime, her novels are very badly written.

>>15628670
Not necessarily. It can be staying with your family, sport, arts, but it can also be just random sex with prostitutes or whatever you find enjoyable. I don't see any redemptive aspect to it, it's not like hippie counterculture where people say "okay, I don't want to work because life is about having sex and being one with nature and finding yourself". There's nothing of the sort. It's pure hedonism accompanied by the pragmaticity of the lowest thief or pirate, with no romantic or redeeming aspect to it.

>>15628654
>>15628654
Fascism in general is seen in very different ways, in Italy. It's not as universally criticized as nazism in germany. Consider that fascism was there for 20 years, while nazism for around half that time in Germany. And racial laws came in rather late (after 16 years) so that people can still justify it politically as a non-inherently racist doctrine. Also, we are allowed to talk and joke about it and nobody gives a shit.
But I think Italians had towards fascism the same attitude they had towards everything else. It worked, it made material conditions better, so they kept it. When it failed, they killed the dictator. The riducule aspect of fascism, if you look at the whole aesthetic of Mussolini, already shows that it was never took to seriously back then, as it is not today (except by extreme right wingers who are, again, ridicule). You can still buy Mussolini's paraphernalia, and cups with Mussolini or even Hitler prints in tourist shops (take Rimini). Truth is: they're a funny joke, like priests, like the government and everything else. Nobody gives a fuck. If Mussolini gives you food and makes you work less, then go Mussolini. If Mussolini goes to war for the country and loses and we're all hungry, then fuck Mussolini.
Right now, people are in their "go Mussolini" phase (another guy, by the way, who was "excusing himself for erudition", as if studying and reading were a bad, for quoting a philosopher in his speech). It will pass and we'll go to a fuck Mussolini's phase soon, in my opinion. We'll still all want to work as little as possible, and go to the beach, have sex, eat nicely and so on and so forth instead.

>>15625797

>seeing your own value solely in terms of accomplishments

>What else are you supposed to measure it in?

Intrinsic personal qualities, cultivated virtue. In our society "accomplishments" basically amount to either trivial acts of social conformity (e.g. school graduation) or possessing a skill with enough acumen that using it for tedious labor is economically viable (like programming or some other gay shit which stops being fun as soon as you do it as a job).

Sexual conquest is probably the only truly life affirming thing that is possible to do in America, hence why our culture feels inclined to obsess over it so much and overstate its value

>>15628635
take the L on this one big boy. its becoming embarassing to read

>>15628673
Experts say this, experts say that, who cares what experts say? If experts would actually know anything they would get things done instead of wasting their lives pretending they know anything. Fact is that Randian philosophy is what drives people to do their own thing, great things, things that experts can only dream about. That is the most important thing about Randian philosophy, it works.

>>15628746
Very postmodern and left-tinted take on Italy. I understand why you speak of nihilism. If I were to ask a right-leaning individual, would he confirm your view?
Unrelated, but It is a little shocking when we consider that despite all this corruption and urge to cheat and enjoy holidays, Italy is still an industrial giant in Europe, and has been for much of the post-1945 world.

>>15629271
I don't think that's postmodern, the Italians have always been kind of pragmatic about politics

>>15629291
Italy has always struck me as the country in Europe where fascism is most fondly remembered and socially accepted. As was stated above, it's probably because it lasted for a long time, had generally good economic results, and was only associated with nazi-like ideas right before the Second World War. But after WWII it seems Italy was not de-fascitized in the same way Germany was de-nazified. Many monuments erected for Mussolini still stand smack dab in the center of Rome. At the same time, Italy also had the biggest communist party west of the Iron Curtain. I don't know what to make of it.

>>15629304
>the trains will run on time

>>15625495
it's masculinity reduced to a caricature of masculinity, in a middle-class american context it's specifically the transition into an affluent gynocentric consumer culture that imagines masculinity to be the inversion of a femininity reduced to a series of purchases. a more extreme example would be the ultraviolence of black men who spend their entire lives in the thrall of women (living with their grandmothers, beaten up by their older sisters, pursued by a string of exes looking for child support)

Wow, I wonder why Jews tried to meme him into a transcendant literary icon.

>>15629339
But:

>>15625472
>competitiveness instead of concert, winning at all costs, dominating others through intelligence or will, being strong, not showing your true emotions, depending on others seeing you as a real man in order to reassure yourself of your manhood, seeing your own value solely in terms of accomplishments, being obsessed with your career or income.

Is hardly stemming from new consumeristic American culture alone. Japanese culture, which is more deep-rooted, springs to mind. Except maybe the Japanese prefer concert to competitiveness, the rest is true, even for the "income" part (postwar salarymen were often referred to as Japan's modern samurais for their work ethic and devotion).

But expanding our scope of study, aggressive manhood models abound, also in the Middle-East

>>15629405
Japanese culture isn't/wasn't as interested in income as American.

>>15629465
I understand they may not be "greedy" and may be less concerned with class status, but how do you explain the salaryman phenomenon then?

>>15629465
And? DFW's criticism of masculinity is hardly JUST that it uses income as a measure of status.

>>15628694
work for the sake of capital can seem like a fool's errand sometimes, so I can appreciate a bit of hedonism, but denouncing knowledge and education isn't something I'm too fond of

>>15629379
>people don’t have their own opinions
>it’s always the Jews
>the Jews bro, the Jews

>>15625472
This is what MRA could have been if it hadn't been taken over by the fart right.

>>15625472
Where do I start with DFW?

>>15626817
stupid fuck

>>15629712
I started with Infinite Jest and I liked it.

>>15627328
so you are gay

>>15628554
I'm italian too, and I'm going to call you a finocchio.
You've swallowed the American bait hook, line ,and sinker: their idea of "work ethics" is a Randian joke, it means you're expected to do unpaid extra work to even have a chance to lick the boots of those above you, and the lack of worker rights means that if you don't go above and beyond your duty you'll be replaced by a more pliable fool.
If you're from the south I can kind of understand your position, but don't expect america to be free from organized crime, nepotism, and widespread corruption either: get a few friend there and you'll see how quickly the illusion shatters.

>>15629730
Good morning to you too faggot.

>>15630074
Did you dream about me last night anon?

>>15625472
He literally described the way how to create a strong nation

>>15630090
I dreamed of your mother

>>15629271
No he probably would blame immigrants and the left. But the truth is, the governments that lasted were rightwing, in Italy, and very little has been done. The two most long-lasting governments in Italy were both Berlusconi's, followed by Democratic-Christians, which is center-right before Berlusconi. I honestly don't see how you could blame immigrants and the left for the decline of the country right-wing politicians have been the ones in charge for most of the time.
Also, I agree with you on Italy's role as an industrial giant. After brexit, we could easily be the third economy of Europe, if it wasn't for the fact that corruption is so widespread. For us corruption is not about corrupting very powerful people: asking and giving favors is a cultural thing and everyone engages in it, more or less consciously. Everyone who is "below" makes favors to people who are "above", and this is how you build your network, be it the student with the teacher or the little politician with the big politician. The problem is: systems of favours have been formalized in other countries, e.g. a professor writes a letter of reccomandation to the student after working with him. This happens in the open, the letter is an official document, and if the student is shit, the professor is less trusted. In Italy, none of this is formalized and in the open: the professor asks another if his nephew can get a job in university because he's a "good boy" (with no credentials) and he ends up getting a job. You get jobs by calling friends and making favors, not by applying honestly, or because your family has friends and contacts. It's all networking and zero actual ability to do stuff. You understand that, given the position you hold in the network, that is, the more you can "help" without requesting help and the more you have friends without being bossed by someone else and being yourself the "boss", the more you are respected. But this does not necessarily have to do with income, achievements, physical appearance or general success in life. It's all about being well-connected, so that we can all help each other to fuck the state and never actually do some proper work.

>>15625472
I get where he's coming from, but he's pushing it to an extreme. People value useful, stoic men. They also value men who are fun, funny and creative.
And this is really in the sense of what women value in men and what men value in themselves (because they want to be attractive to women).
The real argument that always seems to be being made here is that men aren't valued in spite of the character flaws that afflict women.
That's because young women are inherently valuable to men. Women in their 40s cannot get away with the same shit, but they're essentially invisible to society so we don't notice it.

>>15629918
I have lived in the US for two years and corruption is infinitely lower than ours, and that is a fact. Of course there is corruption, nepotism and organized crime: those things don't run the country like in our case, and they are not nearly as culturally engrained as they are in ours. Doesn't mean they don't have other problems, though. I lived there for two years and decided I'm most likely not going back, for many reasons.
My point was not that their system is generally better than ours. I don't care about whose country has the biggest dick. I just wanted to say that their values about masculinity being tied to success are not universally spread, and I tried to described a place I know in which I feel values are objectively different. Whose values are best was not part of my discussion, and I honestly don't give a shit about who has the best values, for what matters.

>>15630099
yeah, nation in one huge mental hospital.

>>15630099
yeah must be why so many men in modern America are utterly broken, dropping out of society, and committing suicide instead of opening up about their problems

>>15630099
Must be why men in modern America are feeling utterly lost and broken while withdrawing from society and committing suicide in droves

>>15628027
>universal masculine virtues
lmao instilled by Sigmund Freud. Vast majority the "virtues" are bullshit, but goys and rubes slurp it up because it came from someone they think are smarter than them.

Is this just another shitposting thread like the chomsky one?

>>15630128
Do Italy's Liga, Fratelli, and neo-fascists (like Social Movement) think Berlusconi was really a right-winger? French far-righters always disown the work of rightist governments like that of Nicolas Sarkozy.

>>15631669
>Must be why men in modern America are feeling utterly lost and broken while withdrawing from society and committing suicide in droves
Source?

>>15631796
https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/
Here, but it's been rising up this past decade, along with PC culture that usually includes an anti-masculine narrative.

>>15631796
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/23/us-suicide-rates-rise-40percent-over-17-years-with-blue-collar-workers-at-highest-risk-cdc-finds.html

https://www.npr.org/2020/03/18/817687042/deaths-of-despair-examines-the-steady-erosion-of-u-s-working-class-life

Additionally, US life expectancy fell for last three years in a row, but only among MEN, first time that's happened in over 100 years. And these don't include 2020 before you think corona is a factor.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/09/us-life-expectancy-has-been-declining-heres-why.html

There has been a sharp and dramatic rise in America unparalleled to any other country in not only the world but the West. So maybe DFW had a point. Although some countries like the UK are seeing a rise. I suspect it's somewhat shared in Anglo countries. (https://www.economist.com/britain/2019/05/14/deaths-of-despair-once-an-american-phenomenon-now-haunt-britain))

There's a lot more you can look up on the rise in MALE rates of depression, anxiety, suicide to see how it's a more of a problem more exclusive to men but you can use google for that. Search "men dropping out of society" and how rates of female college attendance and workforce presence have steadily and recently overtaken that of men as well. If you live in America and are surprised by any of this info you have seriously been living under a rock dude.

lol what. americans are pussies, relatively speaking. actually i find american men speak and act like women, not all but many. that said, cucking oneself to corporate inanities when it comes to wageslaving is a somewhat american characteristic. it's similar to some others, such as chinese for example, but chinese aren't so dumb as to believe the grand narrative and are purely self-serving (avoids that extra dimension of exploitation).

the real issue with this is that it's a hollow version of masculinity built on social fear, not sincere instances of those listed characteristics. so you get absurdities like not wanting to be ousted as a fag so much that you're uncomfortable with your bros, and your bros are not really your bros but your tormentors waiting for the chance to spergly oust you as a fag (not consciously ofc). social relations and traditional character devolve to this haze of ultrafearful autism and incoherent oneupping.

>>15632064
>so you get absurdities like not wanting to be ousted as a fag so much that you're uncomfortable with your bros, and your bros are not really your bros but your tormentors waiting for the chance to spergly oust you as a fag (not consciously ofc)
So, there is a lack of brotherhood essentially, correct? I agree with you in that instance. It doesn't help that there's been a drastic decrease on male only spaces.

>>15631709
The only on point post in this entire derailed shitshow.

>>15632190
>there's been a drastic decrease on male only spaces.
I wish it were still possible to see prostitutes and visit bordellos. Sadly this is outlawed in my country, France. Didn't most men before the beginning of adolescence as a life period lose their virginity to prostitutes?

>>15628289
I just want to say as an /o/ guy sports cars being turned into pseudo-grand-touring cars was a mistake. The Lamborghini was ALWAYS a sometimes food meant to do laps at your nearest track and not something you drive to work or the gym.

>>15625472
Masculinity is good and unmasculine people are inferior.