/lit/ - Literature

>>15583978
System changes are pretty hard, most people want safety and stability. Capitalism might suck but it does provide these for fucks in the first world and gives enough power to the ruling class in the rest of the world to keep the others from trying anything else.

>>15583978
The semen monster cup is good

>>15583978
The profit motive has always been a bad one. But it corrupts everyone it touches. The smallest of bank accounts, the promise of a payment, is all it takes to buy loyalty. We’ve done this so long it seems like second nature.
The wealthier the state, the more stable, but its never stable for long. It’s always on the hunt for more victims. Modern capitalism moreso, ever worsening. The wheels are gonna come off this thing and we’ll all die if we don’t apply the breaks soon.

>>15584093
the alternative is slavery, that's why communism always ended up in starvation and slavery.

>>15584099
No, it IS slavery.
We have to pay for freedom. You don’t know shit about communism

>>15584093
>The profit motive has always been a bad one.
Talk about begging the fucking question; any actual argument here besides “this is all gonna collapse eventually” says increasingly nervous transsexual?

>>15584115
You can't escape slavery, It's impossible to escape the issue of the explotation of a slave caste.

Every society will need to function a slave caste.
Everyone.

The kind of jobs a society needs to function, in some survival sense, are low pay, low status, not very skilled jobs (really shitty blue collar jobs).
Someone has to do those jobs.

A lot of them are pretty shit, like cleaning toilets.
Others are stupidly boring, like farming.

You need a caste of such low status workers.
Always.
It's impossible to make a society without this caste.

And they will be exploited, and will be low pay, in any system.

The questions, is without a profit motive, who wants to do those jobs?
At least with a profit motive, they're voluntary.

The alternative is forcing people to do those jobs (slavery).

>>15584099
>alternative
Uhh, you already live in a "work for masaah or die" world in most capitalistic countries.

>>15583978
>capitalism was the only XX century ideology
It's really a 17th Century ideology.

>>15584151
in capitalism such slavery is voluntary and has a profit motive.

which makes people think is not slavery, is a magic trick.
the alternative to making people think they're not slaves, is actually real slavery.

>>15584115
>it IS slavery
Try being a little more historically illiterate, you privileged white bitch. Shit isn’t “like slavery” just because you don’t think it’s fairly compensated or desirable work, moron.

>>15584146
Cleaning toilets can be avoided with better designs. Farming is already mostly automated and some people unironically like doing it.

Also why do these jobs have to be low status if we recognize that they are crucial for society? We praise guys who kick the ball, write down shit that came to their mind, pretend to be someone else on camera or move around fiat currency. Why not lifting the status of fucks doing crucial jobs?

>>15584151
Lol, tell that to the homeless people in my city, not working, as the government changes the laws to enable them to get away with stealing more

>>15584171
You realize not all slavery was chattel slavery, do you, Burger-chan?

>>15584173
because marxists love to mention their low status and keep talking how soviet russia was much better for their workers, since working in gulags is much better.

>>15584173
scarcity, most people can farm, few can kick the ball in the right way

>>15584182
They have to beg and steal. That shit is work.

>>15584173
there's not a single society where their slave caste was seen as the highest social status caste.

>>15584184
If it’s not chattel slavery it’s not slavery— not even my requirement, it’s a standard of modern human rights conventions

>>15584198
It's not work, it's parasitism.

>>15584115
The problem with Communism is that it doesn't take human greed into account, which you often end up with the ruling party becoming essentially the new nobility with everyone else becoming the peasants. Capitalism is far from perfect and corrupt can be systemic with often someone is getting screwed, but by far capitalism at least allows for some social mobility, rather then you would get under a communist regime.

>>15584198
>everything that isn’t sleeping is “work”
So how is any system meant to solve this without nanomachines son? People have to work to make food come out of the ground

>>15584190
I doubt Ronaldo would do great as a farmer; someone more intellectual would probably kill themselves too. Kicking a ball REALLY well is obviously rare but for the sake of entertainment it's not crucial at all.

>>15584199
Almost like the ruling class had no interest in creating such a society. Why wouldn't it be theoretically possible? Through society the roles that were considered as good and bad changed too. Take shit like merchants and how the jobs Jews were allowed to do were seen as absolute disgusting shit. Now it's the best rewarded shit out there.

>>15584134
Did your mom have to bribe you to grow up?
Money is all that matters to you?

>>15584146
Yes you can.

>>15584171
Money literally puts us in debt. Wage slaves are debtors. Their value isn’t real. It’s a legal document designed to enslave you.

>>15584205
Obviously it's work.

>>15584211
SOME people having to work doesn't really mess with it being voluntary as long there are enough who would rather work than not work; which isn't that big of an assumption. Look how bored fuckers are in quarantine.

>>15584235
>money is all that matters to you?
Good to see after all these years you still cannot have a good faith argument without projecting a strawman onto your opponent.

>>15584210
>The problem with Communism is that it doesn't take human gr

>>15584202
>convention made to justify capitalism sees nothing wrong with capitalism
Really? That's shocking.

>>15584235
>enslave you
So you think a society with no currency, where overlords of some sort mandate who’s labor goes to which person based on their own reasoning is better?

You are dumb as shit: classic example of letting perfect be the enemy of good. I bet you’ve never even worked with your hands for a day, and no working in fast food doesn’t count

>>15584247
It was a question. I don’t know who you are, dummy.

Not interested anyway. Fuck off cappies.

>>15584245
>as long there are enough who would rather work than not work; which isn't that big of an assumption
????
What possible evidence could you have to justify this assbackwards claim— ALSO, how is this a morally superior alternative? You’re just going to coast off the hard work of people willingly giving themselves to it? That’s so fucked up what the hell is weong with you?

>>15584251
So then there is really nothing to be done to satisfy you? You have humans rights conventions asserting defense against slavery but to you this must also be capitalism’s evil because you’re about to lose an argument. Nice.

>>15584235
in argentina, there's 8 million workers and 22 million neets.
And they keep using socialists ideas to provide food for the 22 million neets using the taxes of the 8 million workers.

And clearly such taxation is not enough, so they default to printing, which creates a 50% anual inflation since 1940.

So, how would you motivate the 22 million neets in argentina to start working as hard as the 8 million workers?

Argentina is one of the less capitalists countries right now, next to cuba, venezuela and north korea.

So how would you fix argentina issue?

>>15584254
>overlords
People. Just all of us in control of our own lives. Issuing out non accumulative currency. Which I believe would even lead into a shared economy. But that’s all way off in the possible future

>>15583978
motive. motivation. enjoyment. joy.

>>15584259
It’s just you who’s dumb. Consistently. Unfailingly.

>>15584273
Why doesn’t everyone work 20 hours a week or less?
Soc-dem is shit. Big surprise.

>>15584275
>all of us in control of our own lives
That would be giving people the right to barge for their labor what they think is fair, this contributing to a larger market. How does eradicating currency give people more agency? It does not add up

>>15584288
>I SHOULD KNOW. I WENT TO ECONOMY SCHOOL!!

>>15584286
You need someone who will work most than others, again, we're back to the slave caste issue.

Why would this slave caste work harder and harder (to sustain the society) without being rewarded (profit motive).

Again, why would a person without a profit motive become part of this slave caste and work as a slave if he could be a neet instead?

>>15584275
>I believe
Srs q: why would your ‘beliefs’ mean a damn when it comes to the economy? Even experienced intellectuals can be put to shame by real world circumstances that happen unpredictably— why the hell is this REASONABLE, beyond the fact that you believe it to be? Like, give me a book to read or something so I can fully grasp your stupidity

>>15584296
Again, projection
No I didn’t go to “economy school” what the fuck are you even saying? Answer the damn question, for fucking once

>>15584262
> What possible evidence could you have to justify this assbackwards claim—
It's common fucking sense. Do you seriously think most people wouldn't want to kill themselves if they had a life consisting of eating, sleeping and jerking off with nothing in-between?

> how is this a morally superior alternative?
Because it'd be still voluntary. And given how digital the world is and how the few fucks who absolutely refuse to do any active work would still consume and hence provide data, hence do passive work.

Take shit like beta testing or content rating. (Or how shitholes like Facebook make money) Loser NEETs could provide valuable data for the people doing more traditional work.

damn, I always forget how impressively stupid butterfly is.
proof that it’s not just about reading, it’s about reading good material

>>15584245
So why should the people who voluntarily choose to work support people who do nothing

>>15584297
A better, more healthy society sounds like a decent reward.

>>15584325
Anon, why would anyone go mine coltan because it would be boring not too? And we NEED coltan for the digital savior thing you think is going to fix society
I mean, jesus, if you really believe that people are going to flock to work, doing necessary, arduous manual labor jobs cause its kind of fun, you have absolutely no experience with the real world and it’s honestly shocking to read your posts knowing you exist.

>>15584325
>>15584336
imagine there's a really crappy job like cleaning baby used diapers, which is like fundamental to a society.

And let's say is a really time consuming job, like you need to spend 10 hours per day every day, cleaning baby diapers.

like how do u convince me to do this job on a voluntary basis without a reward.

And since this job is really vital, you need 10k workers for this job.
How would you make sure this role is fullfiled without a profit motive?

Again, why the fuck would I clean diaper shit for 10 hours every day non stop for no pay when I can easily do other shit or be a neet?

>but muh automation
let's say is like a form of art that requires creativity.

Capitalism isn't much of an ideology as it is just letting people interact in the modern world
When you try and have a governing body control interactions between people it tends to collapse

>>15584330
From practical side; it's cheaper and easier and lacks the downsides of a dystopian shithole that forces people to work.

Also again, one can still get value from people who don't do active work. You're currently working for 4chains, Google and probably MS by using their products and giving them data.

>>15584325
>common sense
>of course I decided to work in sanitation, cleaning public toilets for 12 hours a day-- what else was I gonna do? stay home, eating snacks and watching TV? I'm helping society!
your sense is anything but common my friend

>>15584245
>Obviously it's work.
No it isn't. Work produces something of value

>>15584233
>it's not crucial at all.
I know it's not crucial, but we are so rich that many of the things in demand are not crucial.

>>15584366
retarded commies think every job is easier or every job would be filled like by volunteers next day.

It's not like there's really crappy jobs that pay like 400k per year becuase nobody wants to do them, like submarine welding.

>>15584249
Based kool aid man

>>15584355
So people are going to build and maintain your cable, computer, and energy grid, all voluntarily, while you pay for their work by shitposting on 4chan? Communists are something else

>>15584342
>mining
For shit like that we can use the good ol profit motive actually. Having a high reward for crappy jobs would be motivating enough.

> And we NEED coltan for the digital savior thing you think is going to fix society
We really don't. People just want that shit.

Also where the fuck did you get the whole "no reward, work for fun" idea? I'm having basic income in mind, not some utopian society that works for the greater good.

>>15584350
> And let's say is a really time consuming job
Why would it be? Get more people and half the time. At some point the amount of time will be so little, a shitty job would feel a lot less shit and there would be a rewarding feeling of accomplishment. Look at fucking gyms. People are paying money for the privilege to lift weights.

> without a reward.
No one is suggesting that. Even aside of money, you could get your "diaper cleaner badge". Gaymers pay for the privilege of doing pointless and tedious labour already. Gamefying the shitty jobs should be the next big thing.

> How would you make sure this role is fullfiled without a profit motive?
In the very extreme case scenario of not enough people doing it the fucks who need diapers would decide to do it either way.

> let's say is like a form of art that requires creativity.
Art done with profit motive is usually shit either way. Good riddance.

>>15584411
>we don’t need coltan
Anon, you’ve already proven you know nothing about labor/the economy, pls don’t try and be an engineer now

>>15584391
I'm not a commie, bruv. Also it's exactly what happens now anyway. All of the people working in yuro countries could just get neetbucks but they want more moneys, recognizion, a sense of accomplishment, social time, or something to do.

>>15584391
retards can't understand why some blue collar jobs pay so much.

because nobody wants to do them, like they're so crappy you get cancer or your life span is shortened from them.

>>15584411
>why would it be
because some are?

Like imagine how time consuming would be basic infraestructure shit like construction.

>diaper cleaner badge
lmao no, some of blue collar jobs actually give you cancer or some other really crappy shit and you die at 60 from some like chemical cancer you got in the factory.

>gamefying the shitty jobs
Like how the fuck do u gamefy something like mantaining the electric network, or the sewers, retard.

>who the fucks needs diaper
There's shit like underwater welding which is fucking vital to modern society nigger, that is so crappy nobody wants to do because it really sucks and you can easily die from it.

>art
Do u think something like drilling an oil rig in a bumfuck frozen shithole doesn't require some kind of creativity?

>>15584431
"N-no, I can't live without my phone :("

You got a weird ass definition of "need", friendo.

>>15584450
I’m not the one who believe that Tech will solve all the worlds ills lol

ok, another crappy job.

Do u know how high is the turnover rate from industrial butcheries?
Like people get sick of that shit?

Or like the guys that kill stray dogs in japan?
Like most people quit very shortly?

>>15584450
You are just all over the place my man. First you are saying that we are going to address the problems in the labor market through a combination of willing work and technological advancement then when called out You’re willing to throw out the fancy tech because it’s too luxurious. Honestly, can you just explain your ideas in bullet points?

>>15584448
> Like imagine how time consuming would be basic infraestructure shit like construction.
Because it's motivated by the profit motive of the construction company to employ as few people as possible, pay them as little as possible and letting them work for as much as possible. Shit isn't even efficient for anyone else.
> some of blue collar jobs actually give you cancer
As does smoking, sitting for too long, and whatever RSI issues gaymers and hardcore masturbators get. With many it's down to shitty safety regulations as well, again, due the profit motive of the corporation.
> Like how the fuck do u gamefy something like mantaining the electric network, or the sewers, retard.
The same way you gamefy starring the the screen for hours clicking buttons. People pay good bucks for that shit.
> because it really sucks and you can easily die from it
Like extreme sports then. RedBull could sponsor that shit and we'd have underwater wielding competitions.
> drilling an oil rig in a bumfuck frozen shithole doesn't require some kind of creativity
And some fuck would enjoy planning it.
>>15584469
Nor did I say so.

>>15584483
The technological advancements are just an example how activities that would be seen as traditionally useless actually create value. And sure, more tech would be great but it's hardly a requirement to make work voluntary. Simply cutting the hours of individual workers massively would have a big impact.

> can you just explain your ideas in bullet points?
"Basic income yo."

The rest is just considerations that might become relevant later when a generation or two who didn't grow up with the "I have to work to be" mantra will ask questions.

>>15584520
>dude companies are just paying 450k dollars to each worker in those oil rig fields in bumfuck nebraska because lmao the company feels is good to pay so much money to those workers, is a really a good company, it's like a non profit charity
>dude those companies could easily pay those workers 20-30k like what any other company pays an average worker, they could easily do that but they're so nice companies, they really love they workers, they could pay them 30k but instead they wanna pay 10 times more for no real reason
>the most funny thing is that there's dozens or hundreds of peoplew willing to work there, and the workers have to compete to get those jobs
>It's not like instead of hiring 10 workers at 30k they prefer a single worker for 350k

>>15584134
The game of monopoly doesn't last forever

>>15584566
I don't get why you'd think I'd disagree with paying more for shitty work no one wants to do. Just the opposite. If we'd have to pay toilet cleaners 200k a year, people might do it themselves or hit the fucking thing.

>>15584581
do u realize why an oil company may want to pay 450k to a worker?

>but dude, society can live without oil

>>15583978
It's the reason why it has lasted so long, but will also be the reason why it collapses. You really think those who own America aren't willing to sell it to the highest bidder? It's no different from someone who sells new shoes.

>>15584589
They don't "want" it. They have no other choice if they want to hire people for the shit.

> society can live without oil
I mean ... we could at least lower the use of it massively for a start.

So all you pseuds are going to riff on Capitalism without not so much as a mention of Max Weber?? More proof that this board is swirling down the drain.

As long as there are limited resources, there will be competition for the control of those resources. Communism simply awards distribution to a central group and hence 'ownership'. Capitalism allows more individual power in private acquisition and distribution of resources. In reality, in the West, we live under a mixed economy that is largely capitalism, with some communism (government intervention) in the management of resources.

The problem of resources won't be solved until there is effectively an infinite amount of any conceivable resource for each individual. From each according to their desire, to each according to their desire.

However, as resource availability expands, so will demand for those resources and accordingly a competition for control of them, so its doubtful that true equal resource will become possible, without severely changing the nature of demand (plug into matrix, Borg deindividualism, etc).

The 'fairest' system is one that allows the most opportunity to individual participants, if individualism is to be the ideal in line with human nature.

>>15584607
Bla bla bla... resources resources...
"I haven't read Max Weber... what did Tucker Carlson say about resources??"

>>15584651
That's just dismissing what I said without an intelligible rebuttal. More centralized economies largely work better in smaller, low-tech, highly homogeneous societies which are effectively more stable against change causing inequalities.

Since that is no longer the world norm at all, it won't particularly work.

Castrating self-interest and bad actors will require technological intervention itself, otherwise we would have seen successful sustainable communist societies.

Feel free to rebut with something besides insults or other argumentative fallacies.

>>15584651
>dude resources are infinite
how do u redistribute said resources?

central planning failed everytime and people starved, so what's the alternative?

>>15584695
Nah nah that's a good take dude. You got it. Just keep a purely materialist/economist viewpoint of the whole drama. That'll solve everything.

Nevermind Max Weber who traced the foundations of Capitalism back to the Protestant/Puritan work-ethic which provides the "spirit" of Capitalism.
Nevermind the "iron-cage of modernity" we've put ourselves in thanks to hyper-rationalisation and reign of bureaucratisation.

Nah just keep talking about resources and technology...

>>15584607
>communism is government intervention
retard

>>15584725
Jesus you're insufferable. Just present your argument about the influence of Protestant culture on capitalism

>>15584736
are ML not commies?

>>15584745
Firstly, don't blaspheme.
Secondly, I literally gave you the guy's name. Do you want me to hold your hand and write an exposition for you?
The book is called "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism".

Even Charles Taylor in his "A Secular Age" describes this phenomenon in depth. The movement from a magical "porous" world-view to a rational "buffered" one -> The decline of "magic" (religious mysticisms of Catholicm etc) and replacement of it by more human-centered aternatives (Lutheranism turned Calvinism turned Puritanism)
I mean, do you want me to write the whole thing?

>>15584783
If you're going to assert something, then yes you usually explain what you meant

>>15584745
But because I'm a nice guy I'll help you. I usually get paid to teach underwhelming students like you so you should thank me.

First i want you to tell me what some of the major differences are between Catholicism and Protestantism.