/lit/ - Literature

What about North Korea or some other not democratic place?

>>15540454
Allah help us all.

>>15540454
The only genuine constitution of the nation is the one written into the hearts of its people.

>>15540454
get a job you fucking loser
the world isnt ending

>>15540503
cope

>>15540454
>God(YHWH) help us all
theres the problem, christcuck. its also funny to see you distance yourself from muzzies when both of you come from the same source

>>15540507
cope with this
*heems you*
*pisses on your corpse*

>>15540454
Has there ever been a more based man than him?

>>15540462
All power is determined by its constituents. In that sense, they are in practice always 'democratic' because the demos has the power to topple any configuration of power. It is an historical rarity to see such unbalance that an established top power structure could btfo a general insurrection of the population previously under its command.
The government of North Korea was put there by Koreans anyway. Stalin helped a bit but the morons actually fell for the socialism meme. You may say they are kept under that government for a choice that their grandparents made, though that wouldn't contradict de Maistre (and is debatable in that special case).

>>15540515
Your pagan LARPing isn't going to save you from black people, Anon.

>>15540534
>if you dont like Yeshua and his tribe then you're a pagan
not necessarily, retard.

OP here. I like the discussion here. Please keep it going. I want to see everyone come in here. I want the conservatives, the fascists, the communists, the whigs, and everybody else in this thread. Go all out.

>>15540532
I would like to read more Burke as well but I found him boring compared to Maistre.

>>15540532
You know, it's funny. This board has made memes out of Evola, Guenon, Spengler and other odd, far-right thinkers. Yet we've been talking about De Maistre longer than we've been talking about any of those guys, but to this day, he's never been a "meme" on this board. Not in the way Evola and Guenon have been.

Is it because De Maistre is a big boy writer, and the average memester from /pol/ and Reddit can't wrap their heads around him?

>>15540561
I remember de Maistre being quite regularly dropped on /pol/ but that must have been in 2014 or so, before it became a reddit tourist attraction.

>>15540557
Burke is decent but really fails in my book due to his insistence on the worst parts of Anglo ideology like insisting on 'common sense' or the dismissal of 'extremism'.
Juan Donoso Cortes is the patrician supplementary material to de Maistre.

>>15540561
This board just likes all the whacky writers and philosophers. It's why they prefer, say, Joyce to Lawrence. Though Lawrence was a bit whacky himself. Maybe a better analogy might be how in the recent poetry poll they ranked Ezra Pound over T. S. Eliot.

>>15540503
>Stop being so scared of the riots caused by mass unemployement and just become employed instead!
200 iq poster

>>15540619
>worst parts
I would like to hear more about this. Why are these parts the worst of Burke? I know Maistre held Burke in fairly high esteem. Where does Maistre depart from Burke?

>>15540672
Not him, but I've read Burke, and the more right-wing you are, the more Burke starts to come off as a bit schizophrenic. Burke's denunciation of the French Revolution rings much more hollow when you find out that he supported the overthrow of the Stuarts in the Glorious Revolution. What makes the English Revolution acceptable, but not the French Revolution, if their only difference is degrees? Burke would probably say it was "common sense," like >>15540619 says.

Between the two of them I've always liked Samuel Johnson over Burke. Unlike Burke, Johnson opposed the English Revolution and always had Jacobite leanings, despite not being a Catholic himself. Johnson was also strongly opposed to the American Revolution and thought it was totally unjustified.

There's a reason Burke is considered the father of "Conservatism" rather than being considered a reactionary like De Maistre. Burke, and the conservative ideal he founds, is always trying to have it both ways. He wants SOME change, but not too much change, and his grounds for accepting some revolutions but not others aren't really clearly defined.

He's undoubtedly brilliant, though. He's just caught up in his own contradictions.

>>15540649
>muh riots
>muh unemployment
stay poor in your mother's basement you low iq faggot

A Caesar will rise and deliver us from communist scum

>>15540454
Yes we have... Wealthy civlizations tend to grow soft, indulgent and socially perverse. But it's also the case that this perhaps inevitable decay has been encouraged and exacerbated by various interests (oligarchs, anti-whites, traitorous politicians).

The notion that we 'deserve' this, however, is a bit silly... It suggests a free will and a degree of detachment from shaping influences which really isn't indicated. Nor will asking god for mercy save us, rather we must learn to be much less merciful ourselves (I don't believe in god, but if such a belief can inspire you to a hardened resolve then I'm all for it).

It's also telling that you lump fascism in with everything else, when it is the most ideal response we could have to the forces dragging us down. This suggests to me that you aren't serious about fighting for a future, but rather content to stew in eschatological fantasy — to imagine that the decline validates your mystical beliefs.

>>15540454
>>15540727
Suburbanites
>>15540719
Caesarism is 20th century ahistorical messiah fantasy garbage crafted by a bald fascist retard

>>15540532
>Has there ever been a more based man than him?
Louis IX

>>15540561
fascism wins meme power by historical proximity. most people can't even conceive of monarchy making a comeback because they've been so conditioned to view it as a dead, ancient thing by the school systems and pop culture.

>>15540745
>a bald fascist retard *who was right about everything so far*
ftfy

>>15540709
>>There's a reason Burke is considered the father of "Conservatism" rather than being considered a reactionary like De Maistre.
Burke is the William Buckley of the 18th century.
Inconsistent, passionate about political action rather than the ideas, but very polite and willing to play the game of debates, so he became the 'serious' poster boy of a large spectrum of ideas in spite of being clearly inferior.

Interesting thread here everybody. I wonder, what would Maistre's philosophy look like in a modern context? I would like to see someone describe it in both an American and European context. For example, who would be King of France today (Bourbons?) and what would he do differently?

>>15540709
Why did Johnson support the Jacobites?

Why do people view Maistre as a reactionary today? Is it because the institutions he supported don't exist much today except perhaps to some degree in a few Muslim countries? A bit like this >>15540764

>>15540774
Interesting take here.

This thread doesn't belong to /lit/

>>15540836
Why? It's no different from the Greek, Aquinas, Evola, Marx, etc. threads.

>>15540803
i often wonder how a monarchy could be established in america when we have no royal bloodlines. i feel like the only reasonable possibility would be for the pope to name a monarch. either that or we would need an airtight theological justification for revolution.

>>15540836
dilate

>>15540868
I think there was a rad trad cat youtuber / blogger who wrote a book about the Prince of Liechtenstein becoming king of the US. I would presume his argument owes to them carrying Stuart blood down the maternal line... so the Prince would also have authority over the entire British Commonwealth.

>>15540868
Not enough Catholics there and the popes have been very clearly outside this side of politics for a while (which is a good thing, the independence of the church is prime).
Realistically the only way to get a monarchy in the US would be as a late legitimization of a military government if it has a charismatic enough leader.

>>15540454
I saw maybe the funniest article I have seen in years today
>Over 1,000 health professionals sign a letter saying, Don’t shut down protests using coronavirus concerns as an excuse

but wait it goes on to say

> This should not be confused with a permissive stance on all gatherings, particularly protests against stay-home orders. Those actions not only oppose public health interventions, but are also rooted in white nationalism and run contrary to respect for Black lives.

What reaction can anyone even have to this? It's beyond absurdity

>>15540887
>maternal line

Chuck, i can’t sneed!

>>15541023
KEK

>>15540649

Boutta make heller guap off the stock market crash buddy sucks to be poor I guess tho

>>15540454
>implying islam isn't the west's salvation

>>15541018
Eh, that's how the Stuarts came to power.

>>15541015
Any field tied to academia is for leftist subversion. If you're surprised by this at all, you haven't been paying attention.

>>15540557
social democrat here
I want to keep protection for the disabled and the temporarily unemployed, you can do whatever else you want with the economy to limit spending
I also want laws to be based on evidence and instinct more than any specific philosophy
that might be a philosophy itself but I've never encountered it, I kind of doubt it because my thought is somewhat of a rejection of philosophy itself, is anyone familiar with something like that? a philosophy of "if you can prove it OR most people feel it then it's valid, if neither then it ain't shit"

>>15541119
>protection for the disabled and temporarily unemployed
You don't need to be a social democrat, whatever that is, to support humane social policy as you describe.

>>15540709
and the more right-wing you are, the more Burke starts to come off as a bit schizophrenic.
This starts to make sense once you realize that he was a Whig. In today's terms I guess that would make him an enlightened centrist. This is the biggest problem of conservatism to me, it doesn't properly pick a side between traditionalism and progressivism and ends up doing both poorly.

>>15541119
>I want to keep protection for the disabled and the temporarily unemployed, you can do whatever else you want with the economy to limit spending
pretty based, I have a similar view
>I also want laws to be based on evidence and instinct more than any specific philosophy
all laws are based on instinct and emotions, read Nietzsche. the only domain of modern politics that touches upon something that can be scientifically assessed with decent accuracy is climate politics, that's it. economic policy? 1000 contending theories whose adherents are mutually hostile to one another. abortion? 1000 definitions of the human being, none of which is more helpful than the other. I mentioned climate politics as an example of pretty scientific sphere of politics but even there you have the dilemma "economy vs. environment" which doesn't lend itself for a scientific treatment. positivism is nihilistic and should be avoided.
>my thought is somewhat of a rejection of philosophy itself, is anyone familiar with something like that? a philosophy of "if you can prove it OR most people feel it then it's valid, if neither then it ain't shit
that's literally the definition of positivism and it's one of the most disastrous movements that happened in the 19th century, read Comte. Nietzsche's thought was largely a reaction to shortcomings of positivism

Reminder that Giorgio Agamben, heir to Foucault and Schmitt, literally doesn't think covid-19 is real.

>>15541015
>protests about ending the lockdown weeks ago are shutdown by local governments

>current protests are encouraged and even backed by corporations

What a strange world we live in.

>>15540709

An 'english' revolution would probably be 1776.
You're basically comparing life, liberty, property with liberty, equality, fraternity.

The difference in this accounts for Englands relative stability in the last 800 years, with slow evolution compared to the French who are on their 5th republic.

>>15541291
>An 'english' revolution would probably be 1776.
The guy literally specified he meant the Glorious Revolution, which you know actually happened in England, and was the reason for the lessened authority of the monarchy.

>>15541291

I'm always amazed at how the english civil war and Cromwell have been thrown out the english historical memory.

>>15541318

I'm a bit drunk. Well I'm guessing taking 'by your fruits ye shall be known' which one comes on top?

>>15541343
As an American, I think we should be focusing more on that than 1492 in school desu.

>>15541343

Well we still have bonfire day, minus the catholic hate. It's been totally removed from our education system, can you guess what it was replaced with?

>>15541360
>1492
more like 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

>>15541377
black history month?

Joker edit of de maistre pls

>>15541355
The reactionary argument is that 1776 wouldn't have happened without the GR. Somewhat debatable...but the UK and the US ended up in roughly the same spot anyway through the incremental increase of suffrage and the rise of bureaucratic structures replacing the old seats of power.

>>15541255
He was just quoting the words of the Italian National Center for Research. He may have underestimated how serious is a very contagious disease that sends 4% of contaminated persons in intensive care, but he was spot about the larger trend of sustained emergency as a justification for an increase in executive powers.

>>15540454
>Child is getting beaten by his parents
>He deserves it for not beating them back
That's your reasoning.

>>15541291
>Englands relative stability in the last 800 years
A simple look at the list of English monarchs over that era, with their lineage and a quick summary of how they came to power, would be enough to dispel that ridiculous idea. English wasn't any less instable that an other major nation before the 19 th century.

>>15541429
*Englad

>>15541442
*England
Damn I'm especially retarded tonight.

>>15541402

England learnt some lessons from the American revolution, but not that much. Imagine a world where the irish were given emancipation and the US Parliament seats.
WW1 was what really changed the relationship of the state in the common law countries.
I think we're seeing the fruits of an elite that's no longer tied to the land with the effective abolition of hereditary lords.

>>15541429

I would say what I meant was, England had a much more fortunate position with the Channel helping it remain 'relatively' safe from invasion and other influence from the continent. In my opinion this among other things allowed the development of the conditions that led to success.

>>15541525
I disagree. I think success started in 1688. Look at the War of the Roses and the violence associated with religious regime changes. Even the old American Catholic Encyclopedia is in favor of the Glorious Revolution just because it finally put an end to hundreds of years of internal conflicts.

>>15541163
well I also prefer government control over utilities but that's more of a matter of it making sense and hopefully leading to greater accountability
if the roads are bad or a water main is leaky you can vote in someone who will get them fixed, but if you have electrical issues, you typically have no other provider to go to (in my experience), and even if you can all they could offer is fixing things faster or undercutting on price, electricity is standard and it has to be
so yeah I support public corporations like USPS for water, power, mail, maaaybe landline phone service
for that matter maybe also cell phone service, you can already use anyone's towers and don't have any real control over which ones you use

>>15541209
my understanding of positivism was that proof was above all else and just because you ~feel~ something doesn't make it real, I contend that if most people feel something (kindness, hatred, presence of a higher power) it must be as real as a stone or a stick

So uh, do you people prefer mercantilism or free trade, what is the ''conservative'' position.
Isn't American conservatism ultimately a product of the enlightment too?

>>15541757
OP here. I'm a little bit agnostic about political science due to ignorance. I mean, I am probably more comfortable labeling myself conservative because I take the same stance on social issues that many of them do, but as far as arguments of free trade vs. protectionism, and that sort of thing go, really, you're asking the wrong person. With that said, I am definitely not a nat soc as I do communism since I despise thuggery and plebianism.

When I posted the OP I was just trying to channel Maistre's voice as commentary on contemporary affairs.

>>15541757
Conservative in the American sense isn't easily definable. A lot of very different people fall under that label.
You've got the mainstream GOP, which is basically the Democrats but 5 years behind on the cultural issues and with way more austerity yet a bloated military and Israel budget.
You've got the "patriot right", who are basically second amendment absolutist minarchists. Ron Paul and the like.
You've got the evangelical Christians, who are pretty much identical to the mainstream GOP ideologues except even less compromising on abortion, gay marriage, trans bathrooms, whatever. They also fanatically defend Israel because they think they're necessary for Jesus to come back. Ted Cruz is one of them.
Then you've got the Paleocons, who tacitly admit that the American revolution was basically a fuckup that caused all the progressive stuff the rest of the conservatives hate, but can't openly say that because it's too ingrained in the American identity. A lot of them advocate for protectionism, isolationism, closed borders, and an economic system similar to Catholic distributism. Pat Buchanan is the most famous one, Tucker Carlson is the face of them (except he goes even further left on policy than most paleocons do), they're not very popular with boomers but extremely popular with younger conservatives.
Trump is basically the first pretending to be the last.

>>15541828
>Paleocons
Would you say there's any country today that fits in with their perspective? Please don't tell me Poland.

>>15541757

I would prefer free market, so long as it's within the nation. For instance I would not want a company to be able to operate in my country if they did not play by the same rules as everyone else (tax, standards etc.)

>>15540868
The President could simply dismiss Congress tomorrow and rule by executive fiat and no one would do anything meaningful about it. You people underestimate just how weak the American republic currently is. Like Rome before us, we have fallen under the sway of populists and demagogues who are accruing huge amounts of irregular power to themselves, not just within the presidency but outside of it as well, in industry and finance. The only reason there have not been open attempts to abolish the republic yet is that I think the vast majority of these people are still wedded to the illusion of American liberty.

>>15541882
Hungary maybe? Georgia or Armenia might also fit.

>>15541961
are you dumb? they killed jfk for way less than that.

>>15542103
Right. They're trying to color revolution Trump out right now. An authentic American Caesar isn't coming anytime soon.

>>15541961
Only if the army obeys the president

>>15542133
yeah i could definitely see a fake puppet caeser though.

>>15542103
>>15542133
>they

Who's "they"?

>>15542187

>>15540454
that's why (fate permitting they reopen their border on July 1st as rumored) I'm heading to Vietnam asap. West is finished dudes. Like OP said we deserve this, so burn baby burn. These faggy zoomers deserve a shitty world anyway.

>>15542187
if i knew who "they" were, i would be on my way to slaughter them right now. the rothschilds, the bilderbergs, the jews, ultimately its just people who worship satan in some form or another.

>>15542209
The CIA couldn't even pull off a coup in shithole Venezuela. They've been trash for years and these days they're just coasting off their reputation and their drone strikes. Every aspect of our government as gone to shit, INCLUDING our intelligence agencies.

>>15540454
The United States is suffering because its governments and corporations have been hijacked by interest groups who don't represent the American people. Deserve's got nothing to do with it.

>>15542144
Most of the rank and file are Trump supporters, and generals can always be replaced.

>>15542239
CIA is currently run by a women. If you look at how female CEOs perform, the decline of our intelligence services won't come as a surprise.

>>15542239
They might be doing better if the secretary of state hadn't kept her emails on a unsecured personal server that resulted in dozens of high level assets in China exposed and neutralized.