/lit/ - Literature

Didn't get shit because I read it "Fourth-year student Adrien Robertson GOT kicked off the English Society’s first colloquium"
I almost raged before I read it again.


Now it all makes sense though. Zelda is hard nostalgia.

oh lol
>walk around thee map in a slightly different way
NEW STORY GUISE

DAT FUCKING SMILE DEM GLASSES RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGE

imho interactivity is the main problem that prevents video games from becoming art or at least good art.

The video-games of our day and age are about as viable a critical object of study as plush toys and slippy slides

It's not worth considering the video games of today as literature, but they might take on a form of art, so to speak....

Regardless, I think a big push of the technology will see us somewhere quite exciting in 10-20 years time...

I don't see games as literature, but they can be interactive fiction.

I like both games and fine literature but I'm not entirely comfortable with the two intersecting. I like them both for different reasons

>>1544385
>>of our day and age

yfw when plush toys and slippy slides installation

captcha Hedonistic artsi

>Mr. Robertson suggests the closest literary equivalent of Zelda would be any author who responds to fan fiction and alters their work accordingly.

Who the fuck does that?

>>1544416
>interactive fiction
When is fiction not interactive?

>>1544448
Any author who meets with their fans regularly. So Rowling, Pratchett. Shakespeare probably did. Dickens definitely did, one of the advantages of publishing in episodes.

>>1544454

Wow. Thanks, I had no idea.

>>1544447
cool, but as i said.

The video-games of our day and age are about as viable a critical object of study as plush toys and slippy slides.

>>1544460

Ever play PS:T or KotOR2? There are plenty of legitimate issues brought up in the writing in both games.

>>1544465
>Ever play PS:T or KotOR2?
Sure.
>There are plenty of legitimate issues brought up in the writing in both games.
No, those are projected into them.

>>1544460
I suppose the same goes for films and television?

Back in the 80's and early 90's sure but for the past 15 years some games have come out with phenomenal scripts that I pitied that they were not found in more established mediums.

>>1544460
You seem to be book smart, but unable to reach past the application stage of learning. Your knowledge lacks depth.

>>1544476
Earthbound, man. Earthbound. That stuff was awesome.

Even so, there's a wealth of analysis to be taken from Mario, or Zelda, or so many other seemingly simple games from the early 90s.

>>1544371
It's pro-game pablum directed towards non-gamers, hoping on cashing in on the idea of mythic quests, nostalgia, and readily recognizable titles to pull people towards a political point. If the speaker really wanted to talk about infinite possibilities in games, they should be talking about Dwarf Fortress, which creates a fairly new, if idiosyncratic, drama every time you fire it up, or tabletop roleplaying games.

>>1544476
>I suppose the same goes for films and television?
Sure, Film developed from crude realist captures of everyday life to an advanced storytelling form, thanks to people like Griffith; it wasn't an instantaneous process. I don't contest that video-games conceivably don't have the potential to be bonified objects of critical study.

>>1544477
0

>infinite
idk. overplaying his hand. would be more interesting to analyze recent trends in game development. more brainless shootan, more microrewards to hook the kids on repetitive activity etc.

>>1544470

Nonsense, you're basically saying "I don't believe the writers are intelligent enough to have intentionally written anything of value," which is just a projection of your own bias.

I'd say PS:T's complete subversion of the usual use of death in a game (which is completely intentional, by the way) alone could warrant a good deal of legitimate analysis.

>there's a wealth of analysis to be taken from Mario, or Zelda, or so many other seemingly simple games from the early 90s.

No, there isn't, unless there's also a wealth of analysis to be taken from slippy slides and G.I. Joe action figures. They're both inappropriate objects of critical study.

>>1544492
>you're basically saying "I don't believe the writers are intelligent enough to have intentionally written anything of value,"
where have I said that. i'd like you to point out exactly where you said that. If you do not precisely and exactly point out quite literally where I have said this I will not make any more attempt to engage you in discussion because it will be apparent to me that you are incapable of taking what I am saying without putting words in my mouth.

>>1544385
As opposed to our father's day and age when the player moved forward only? This is much more like a slippy-slide if you ask me.

>>1544497

No they are of worthy of critical study just as any modern art painting is. Simple concepts they portrayed yet they still captured the attention of many.

>>1544505
This doesn't address what I've said in the least. The game could be as mechanically complex as you like.

>>1544497
Even though that's non-sequitur, there's as much to be taken from slippy slides and G.I. Joe action figures as a novel or a some piece of renaissance artwork. Further point; they're so ingrained in our culture, that you can mention them on an international message board apropos of nothing, and expect to be understood, showing how relevant they are to our culture. Please attempt to prove either statement wrong.

I'm guessing you don't like them because they lack cultural capital, and aren't in any way special or unknown. Again, feel free to prove this statement wrong.

>>1544451
I felt a bit more like a monster in playing Shadow of Colossus than reading Lolita, even though both works are supposedly intended to implicate you by virtue of your participation. I won't say that literature and film aren't interactive, but there's something to be said for a work responding directly to you pushing buttons.

He looks a bit like a lesbian.

>>1544512
I was thinking FtM transsexual looking at the picture and the text together.

>>1544510

Same here about SotC.

Never have I before questioned the purpose/price of my video game quest. Killing such large creatures that portrayed innocence yet great danger had me conflicted.

>>1544504

Ok:

>No, those are projected onto them.

Give me another interpretation of that post, because that's certainly what it sounded like.

Of course, you're a tripfag, so I don't know why I'm discussing anything with you at all.

>>1544510
True. I agree that first interaction (discounting writing a fanfic or imagining other shit), the interaction in a video game is more direct, clearer etc., but I think it would be naive to discount the modality completely from the simple act of writing a novel.

How often does that cretin need to repeat the phrase 'critical object of study'?

As anybody who has read Tom Engelhardt is aware, G.I. Joe dolls are indeed 'critical objects of study' and have been extensively studied, as objects, in critical fashion. This is especially so in relation to their impact on, and reflection of, America's 'war culture'.

CRITICAL OBJECTS OF STUDY
CRITICAL OBJECTS OF STUDY
CRITICAL OBJECTS OF STUDY
CRITICAL OBJECTS OF STUDY
CRITICAL OBJECTS OF STUDY

>>1544528

True! We even have museums dedicated towards toys.

Things like perfume even have archives and award ceremonies and such.

>>1544506
>No they are of worthy of critical study just as any modern art painting is
I'm not talking about art criticism, I'm talking about literary criticism, this is a literature board.
>Simple concepts they portrayed yet they still captured the attention of many.
This doesn't make anything worthy of critical study. You could say this about countless things.

>>1544509
>Even though that's non-sequitur
It isn't a non-sequitur if you understand what I'm saying and what's implied.

>there's as much to be taken from slippy slides and G.I. Joe action figures as a novel or a some piece of renaissance artwork. Further point; they're so ingrained in our culture, that you can mention them on an international message board apropos of nothing, and expect to be understood, showing how relevant they are to our culture. Please attempt to prove either statement wrong.
That's got nothing to do with whether they're appropriate for critical study or not. Thirdly, here's a hilarious twist on your piss-poor argument

>there's as much to be taken from toasters and tea cups as a novel or a some piece of renaissance artwork. Further point; they're so ingrained in our culture, that you can mention them on an international message board apropos of nothing, and expect to be understood, showing how relevant they are to our culture.
You could virtually slot anything in there in place of slippy slides or tea cups. You fail to get the point.

>I'm guessing you don't like them because they lack cultural capital, and aren't in any way special or unknown
guess about whatever you want

Lowest common denominator FTW

Also, I'm purely speaking in terms of objects of literary study; I don't about art criticism, soliological studies etc

>>1544538
>Simple concepts they portrayed yet they still captured the attention of many.
>This doesn't make anything worthy of critical study. You could say this about countless things.

So how is literature any different then? What makes it more so deserving of critical analysis than video games, architecture, cooking, toys, etc.?

>>1544538

>I'm not talking about art criticism, I'm talking about literary criticism, this is a literature board.

Academic literary critics spend about 99% of their working lives trying to determine exactly what they mean by 'literature' and what sorts of things are appropriate objects of CRITICAL STUDY.

>This doesn't make anything worthy of critical study. You could say this about countless things.
You have not provided any meaningful criteria for what you think ought to be considered objects of critical study.

>It isn't a non-sequitur if you understand what I'm saying and what's implied.
I don't think you know what a non-sequitur is. If your conclusion relies on unspoken assumptions (I IMPLIED IT!!!), it is safe to assume that you have contructed your argument poorly.

Why don't you ever post anything interesting or intellectually valuable? Why!?

CRITICAL STUDY
CRITICAL STUDY
CRITICAL STUDY
CRITICAL STUDY
CRITICAL STUDY

Video games can be emotionally compelling because of the degree of participation, I was very moved at the end of the stonetalon quests in cata, BUT that doesn't mean they're artistically viable

inb4 lol everythings artistically viable, lrn 2 degree

>>1544548
>So how is literature any different then?
Its formal devices

>What makes it more so deserving of critical analysis than video games, architecture, cooking, toys, etc.?
I'm not interested in critical analysis sui generis, I'm interested in literary analysis, as I've already made clear.

>>1544538
Okay, so you're making some super intelligent point that no one can understand, and despite being intelligent you are unable to explain it in a way which is understandable.

Sounds like a cool story bro.

>>1544548
>What makes it more so deserving of critical analysis than video games, architecture, cooking, toys, etc.?

The general answer is antiquity and privilege. Books have been around a long time and only the lofty, rich folks had them up until recently. For that, it has the stigma of being something of which all people should become knowledgeable.

The fact is that a vast majority of people don't give a fat shit about literature nor books, and that they're not any less for that.

>>1544554

But video games borrow the same formal devices from literature and art (images) 2d. Combined with 3d interaction of the artificial environment portrayed along with music and moral dilemmas presented in the game itself.

>>1544554
>>So how is literature any different then?
>Its formal devices
So it has worth because it has been analysed. How insightful.

>>1544551
>Academic literary critics spend about 99% of their working lives trying to determine exactly what they mean by 'literature' and what sorts of things are appropriate objects of CRITICAL STUDY.
Cool, but that hasn't stopped them from having conventions over what constitutes proper literary objects, or in many cases critical objects, of study. We aren't studying toasters, kettles, towels.

>You have not provided any meaningful criteria for what you think ought to be considered objects of critical study.
family resemblance

>I don't think you know what a non-sequitur is. If your conclusion relies on unspoken assumptions (I IMPLIED IT!!!), it is safe to assume that you have contructed your argument poorly.
Again, if you understand what I am saying and what I am implying, you will deduce the inevitable conclusions quite easily.

>>1544556
I'm not going to dumb anything I say down for stupid shits, sorry

>The general answer is antiquity and privilege.
This applies to absolutely everything, you don't even have to be a vulgar marxist to realise this

>>1544554
What makes an object worthy of criticism?

>>1544566
>video games borrow the same formal devices from literature
I'd like you to give me an example of this. I will show you how it is insufficient.

>>1544572
You're putting words in my mouth and coming to completely false and irrelevant conclusions

Great. A debate on what constitutes good literature :).

>>1544576
There is nothing in an object that makes it inherently more worthy than any other object to criticise. This depends on conventions and family resemblance.

>>1544582
How would you know without playing them?

Fine. Have Planescape Torment.

>>1544588
You've given me an example of a game, but I asked for an example of a literary formal device used in a game. try again please

>>1544489

Funny in this post you conceded with the anon about how video games are in essence establishing their base for critical study as film did.

Yet you continue as if they are not and never will be worthy of critical study.

>>1544594
>The video-games of our day and age are about as viable a critical object of study as plush toys and slippy slides

>I don't contest that video-games conceivably don't have the potential to be bonified objects of critical study.

you haven't read the thread

>>1544593
Its full of symbolism. There you go.

>>1544593
You really are shite at arguing anything.


>What someone else said.
Glib, almost idiotic refutation in 4 words or less.

>>1544594

...despite never having played the majority of games he dismisses.

>>1544582
You have to be kidding me? You are far too arrogant to realize how ignorant you are to even continue to argue with.

>>1544601
That's an utterly inadequate response because everything is symbolic, and symbolise countless different things to countless different people, and yet only some of these things serve as appropriate objects of critical study; further, language itself is symbolic. On a more restrained note, some works of art contain no symbolism; William Carlos Williams' poems for example. This is just an aside, but Shklovsky and other Russian Formalists really went to work on the Symbolism approach to art and criticism.

>>1544603
0

>>1544604
I've played a vast number of video-games in my lifetime but I have yet to consider any of them appropriate objects for literary study.

>>1544613
0

>>1544620
http://www.ludomancy.com/games/today.php

>>1544628
Graphics from 20 years ago, shitty music, a bunch of words strewn about the screen with a quasi-comic-sans font.

this is exactly the sort of thing that gives video-games a terrible reputation as "art games"

don't waste my time with Rohrer's or Messhof's garbage either

>>1544620
We can talk about this but:

Have you played Planescape Torment? I need to know to what level I have to communicate.

People who say video games are worthless are bitter because they wasted too much of their youth on them.

>>1544628

Play that game and tell me the why the elements used in this game cannot be criticized by lit standards?

>>1544635
Oh of course dismiss the game like you would dismiss a book by it's cover. And yet you say you can critically analyze literature. My aren't you a bright one.

>>1544647
There's nothing literary in it to criticise.

D&E is getting owned.

>>1544658
Really now? Not even the fight of one's own personal demons to realize the value of their own life?
The symbolism of one's own misery and struggles?

>>1544653
D&E really is one of the best examples I've ever seen of these guys who think they're superior because they study something 99.99% of the world can't be bothered to care about.

I have never seen a case so bad as his.

>>1544658
Any medium which uses narrative can be criticized.

>the fight of one's own personal demons to realize the value of their own life?
But that's not something in the video-game, that's something you've projected into it. Even if that was there in the text (it's not) as the "message" of the game would have nothing to do with it being a literary text.

>The symbolism of one's own misery and struggles?
I've already spoken about symbolism earlier in this thread, and what I've said there applies just as much to this.

>>1544658
>There's nothing literary in it to criticise.

I have to disagree on ths one with you. Old text based games generaly contain tons of text that could be criticized by lit standards if one w to.

However games as sum of all their parts obviously aren't literature.

>>1544658
D&E:

Are you well today? Are you sure that there is NOTHING literary in some games (as in any random subset)?

I believe you mean that there is nothing worth considering. But then you have to be clear for the sake of the masses.

>>1544635

I've played it and I have to disagree. It would be like you disregarding William Carlos Williams as a great American poet. But from your arrogance it would seem very likely.

>>1544667

Obviously I projected it. Disregard the obvious visual/audio/literary queues from the game. Combine with the self reflection from the creator of the game.

>>1544666
>Any medium which uses narrative can be criticized.
A platitude. Firstly, there is narrative wherever there are humans, narration is co-terminus with humanity itself. Therefore every medium uses narrative.
Secondly. you can criticise ANYTHING you want, but that is not what is at issue here. What is at issue here is whether video-games are an appropriate object of literary study.

>>1544668

>>1544682
>There's nothing literary in it to criticise.

This is why you will never be an original thinker, Derp. Your mind has a perpetual chastity belt on it.

>>1544682
>What is at issue here is whether video-games are an appropriate object of literary study.

Obviously not as they are object of "game" study.

>>1544671
>I've played it and I have to disagree
Cool, you can disagree all you want, makes no difference to me as long as you don't have a counter-argument.

>It would be like you disregarding William Carlos Williams as a great American poet.
William Carlos Williams could be a great American cocksucker for all I care, it has nothing to do with anything I've said.

>>1544668
>Old text based games
Sure, I think this particular genre of video-game are much more viable to literary criticism because they are for the most part literary in themselves, almost to the point where I am reluctant to call them video-games, but that would be an entirely different discussion. I take your point about these sorts of games, but they're not the ones I'm concerned with nor do they reflect the majority of games on the market, as you hint at yourself.

>>1544678
>Disregard the obvious visual/audio/literary queues from the game
what obvious queues?

>Combine with the self reflection from the creator of the game.
What has the self reflection of the creator of it got to do with anything?

>>1544687
>perpetual chastity belt

Ha! You have no idea what you have said: It means you have been raped.

ED I think you are completely ass backwards.
You say people project upon video games yet you don't believe the same can be applied to literature?

>>1544692

You would know the queues if you actually played the game from beginning to end.

The self-reflection points to the intention of what he wanted the audience for his game to experience.

>>1544694
>You say people project upon video games
No, I say people project messages into video games

>you don't believe the same can be applied to literature?
Sure do, people project messages into bonified literary texts too

literary = letters

not that difficult guise

>>1544693
Original thinkers let their minds get raped continually.

I know exactly what I said, chimp.

>>1544703
>You would know the queues if you actually played the game from beginning to end.
Even if I did know the queues, what would that have anything to do with it being a literary text?

>The self-reflection points to the intention of what he wanted the audience for his game to experience.
Okay, but what does that have to do with it being a literary text? Why should I accept anything he has to say about anything?

>>1544687
There is no such thing as an original thinker

>>1544692
>I take your point about these sorts of games, but they're not the ones I'm concerned with nor do they reflect the majority of games on the market

So you are generalizing all video games then.

But since you are comparing the two what is the epitome of literature then?

>>1544714
>There is no such thing as an original thinker

Sour grapes?
There is, even if you'll never be one.

>>1544716
>So you are generalizing all video games then.
No, I'm not, I've already stated the ones I'm concerned with. This is besides the fact that generalizations are for the most part a healthy and necessary part of intellectual functioning, and can often be correct.

>But since you are comparing the two what is the epitome of literature then?
I'm not comparing them. I'm contrasting them. That's the point.

>>1544718
Cool, and you'll obviously never read Mikhail Bakhtin, you ignorant asshole.

>>1544692
>Sure, I think this particular genre of video-game are much more viable to literary criticism because they are for the most part literary in themselves, almost to the point where I am reluctant to call them video-games, but that would be an entirely different discussion.

The problem I have with majority of video games on the market now is that story part of it (what is viable subject to litarary criticism) and game part are pretty much completely dissociated from each and interactive decission made in one doesn't affect the other.

>>1544726
Half arsed philosophers and their disciples.

>>1544744
No, no, now. Mikhail Bakhtin says it, so I will mindlessly repeat it and help him prove him right.

>>1544714
>Even if I did know the queues, what would that have anything to do with it being a literary text?

The protagonist's character development is the plot.

Rising Action: The collection of words through interacting with he environment and the enemies. Replacing the words from the poem.

Climax/Turning Point: The acquisition of the final word and placement. Along with the choice between interacting with the male character

Falling Action: The result from final choice to interact with male character. To either stand on one's own feet or determined to find happiness with someone else.

Resolution/Denouncement: The rejection of depression and the earlier idea of suicide

>Okay, but what does that have to do with it being a literary text? Why should I accept anything he has to say about anything?
Because you said that my earlier arguments for symbolism and such were void because I projected it upon the game when in actuality that's what the creator intended for the audience to take from the game.

It pains me to agree so wholeheartedly with D&E but the rest of you are just trying too hard.

>>1544736
>story part of it (what is viable subject to litarary criticism) and game part are pretty much completely dissociated from each
I think you're very much on the spot there. My own feeling would be that these two elements have not yet been integrated very well so far. I feel that there are some games, such as MW2 (ironically) that deliver a fairly solid package in terms of narration and actual playability but this is sort of on the level of a Die Hard movie, nothing you'd put up alongside Ulysses or whatever. Now, the vast majority of video-games out there aspire to this level and in my opinion there's nothing wrong with that because as a matter of convention we play games for entertainment purposes. I wouldn't play the ulysses of video-games if it only had one button you pressed every half-hour. And we see this shit in games like the one already linked, you have toddler equivalent mechanics and whatever literary content you might consider to be there is wafer thin, for me it doesn't even equate to the compelling Die Hard's story would give me. So these games totally fail on the mechanics and literary side, while a game like MW2 at least has the fucking essential quality of being a good play, it doesn't have anything special literary-wise. But I don't think it'll always be like this.

>>1544763
>The protagonist's character development is the plot.
That's simply wrong. The structure of a story is a plot.
As far as character development goes, I didn't see any. I moved sprites across the screen a couple of times and the colours changed, the thing with hair blinked a few times. Not sure what there is to be gotten out of any of that.

>that's what the creator intended for the audience to take from the game.
Firstly, you did project, and secondly, how is whatever he intends for anything relevant to what I take from it?

Video games definitely present a very real and effective opportunity for story telling. The current resistance to video game criticism merging with literary criticism is much like the troubles film criticism faced.

That said, we're still in the early ages of video games. I can only think of a handful of games that present interesting views of existence, most tend to have fantastic and miserably abstract constructs that arbiter the events of the game, and cliche easy to grasp stories. Even in the case of games which misrepresent reality, most tend to offer very clear views of certain kinds of archetypal fantasies.
Take Pokemon, it is a game of mastery and collection of other beings. It is patriarchal and colonialist, a story of a boy becoming a man by mastering the world around him. The narrative given is opposite though, supposedly Ash beats Gary because Ash loves his pokemon. The relation a player has to his collected pokemon is not love.

But then you have games like the Metal Gear Solid series. Twisting stories that deal with complex political issues (heroicness, duty, freedom, patriotism, government corruption, conspiracy) along side very post-modern themes like simulation and loss of identity. Metal Gear always plays with the gaze of the player, breaking the 3rd wall in strange ways. ("Turn the game console off, right now, you've been playing for a very long time. Go home, I'll do the fighting"). Or the legendary Psycho Mantis scene.

>>1544766
Yeah, the Anons are the ones trying hard.

girlslaughingprettyhard.jpg

>>1544776
>Take Pokemon, it is a game of mastery and collection of other beings. It is patriarchal and colonialist, a story of a boy becoming a man by mastering the world around him. The narrative given is opposite though, supposedly Ash beats Gary because Ash loves his pokemon. The relation a player has to his collected pokemon is not love.
Okay, this one is complete horseshit.

The MGS one is decent; it presents the complex issues so heavy-handedly I think it undermines the possibilty of a significant commentary on any of the complex issues it's purported to engage with, but there are some interesting things MGS that does with its mechanics that merit interest.

>>1544774
>That's simply wrong. The structure of a story is a plot. As far as character development goes, I didn't see any.

They were visual queues of her change of heart about the value of her life. The story is structured around her change of heart=plot.

>Firstly, you did project, and secondly, how is whatever he intends for anything relevant to what I take from it?

Because he's trying to leave little room about his take on suicide.

>>1544789
this is the stuff to which you should probably limit the scope of your posts - arguing about computer games

>>1544682
Forgive me for feeding you your words, but in your first comment you said...
>critical object of study
... rather than...
>an appropriate object of literary study.
Who moved that goalpost? Was it you Anon? Put it back or it's an automatic loss for you.

>>1544789
>Take Pokemon, it is a game of mastery and collection of other beings. It is patriarchal and colonialist, a story of a boy becoming a man by mastering the world around him. The narrative given is opposite though, supposedly Ash beats Gary because Ash loves his pokemon. The relation a player has to his collected pokemon is not love.
Okay, this one is complete horseshit.

How is that horseshit? That seems to be a valid critical analysis of a game showing the disassociation of the plot to the gameplay and pointing out the subplot of growing into adulthood?

I saw the gold, and I took it. A different man might not have, I know that, and from time to time, I think back on the hour when I saw the gold and took it. You see, I was hungry. Isn't it ironic.
I don't remember much else about that night but the gold and the hunger. I don't remember the name of the tavern, or even the village, but I believe it was somewhere in southern Vvardenfell. I can't really be certain. For some time, I sat dumbly in my chair, my mind occupied with nothing but the pain in my stomach. If you've never been truly hungry from days of no food, you can't know what it's like. You can't concentrate on anything. It wasn't until a figure to my left got up from the table to get a drink and left a stack of gold marks behind that I snapped to awareness.
From this moment on, my memory is crystalline.
My eyes to the gold. My eyes to the stranger's back, walking calmly toward the barmaid. My hand to the gold. The gold in my pocket. I'm up from the table, and out the door. For just a moment, I look back. The stranger has turned to look my way. He wears a hood, but I can feel his eyes meet mine. I swear, I can scent a smile.
Out into the street, and behind some barrels I crouched down, waiting for my pursuer. One benefit of a lifetime running from guards, I know how to disappear. For nearly an hour, I waited there, suffering even more from hunger. You see, I was awake now and I had the means to buy myself a feast. This knowledge tortured me. When I finally got to my feet, I very nearly fainted. I had only enough energy to walk to the other edge of the village to a run-down tavern before collapsing at a table. I think I must have fallen unconscious for a moment before I heard the barmaid's voice.

>>1544801

“Can I get you something to eat, sera?”
I gorged myself on roasts and pies and huge frothing mugs of greef. As the fog of near fatal starvation began to lift, I looked up from my plate to see a gold-masked stranger looking at me, his vizard glowing by the blinding light of the moon through the window. He wore black leather armor and was a different physique and size from the man I had burgled, but I could tell he knew. I paid for my meal quickly and left.
I skirted the edge of the village, through a tiled central courtyard surrounded by the squalid peasant's cottages. There was not a light shining from any window or door. No one was on the streets. I could find no place to hide, so I took the road out of town, heading for the wilderness. Hunger had pushed me on in the days before, but now I felt what I imagined to be the whip of guilt. Or perhaps, even then, it was fear.
I fell twice, rushing down the dark path, unused to the slopes and pebbled texture. The sounds of animal life, which I had numbed to, were suddenly very loud in my ears. And there was something else out there in the night, something chasing me.
On the side of the road, there was a low wall, and I scrambled over it and hid. I knew enough about concealment to pick a spot where the bulwark sunk slightly so even if someone saw the outline of my figure, he would assume it to be part of the wall. It wasn't long before I heard the sound of running footsteps from more than one person pass me by and then stop. There was a moment of whispered conversation, and one of the people ran back on the path toward the village. Then, silence.

>>1544789
Ah, I'm glad to hear that D&E, after months of lurking I tend to agree with you as a Po-mo-bro.

And yes, the narative and mechanics supplied by pokemon are unrealistic and pathetic. Its still a "fun" game, but It hardly provides interesting insight into the world. If its world is taken literally as a model for how to engage in RL, you'd be a fucked up dude.

Metal Gear can be a little heavy handed, Kojima seems like a smart guy, but he's no Baudrillard. Still, he plays with representation in very interesting ways. Whenever you equip night vision or thermal goggles, your third person view also goes thermal. As if both you and snake wear the goggles. MGS2 plays on the idea of simulation alot, especially near the end with the AI that produces your commander gets corrupted. The AI speaks of your "role" to which Raiden gets up set. The commander responds with "Well this is a roleplaying game of sorts, your job is to play out your role"

But, back to your comments D&E, I'm concerned to see your distinction beteween criticism and literary criticism. Wouldn't you agree most mechanism of literary criticism could be applied to any kind of representation? Sure certain writers might be more applicable to certain mediums (Lacan to film, Baudrillard to Art etc), but the tools seem fairly media neutral. I don't know if you've read Roland Barthes Mythologies, but that book made clear to me that critical thought can be held against any object. In the book Barthes is ease discussing literature, professional wrestling, food customs, the press, advertising language, propaganda, even the vacation habits of royalty.

You said you're interested in literary criticism, not criticism of a sociological nature. To me, that's kind of one of the basic ideas of post-modernism. That to confine ourselves to individual fields results in shortsighted ideas.

>>1544793
>They were visual queues of her change of heart about the value of her life.
Cool, where did you get that from?

>The story is structured around her change of heart
Cool, the story could be about anything, which is all you have just said, but that's not the plot.

>Because he's trying to leave little room about his take on suicide.
Cool, where did you get that from?

>Take Pokemon, it is a game of mastery and collection of other beings
>it is a game of mastery
No surprise, every game is about mastery to some extent, the extent enough to beat it I should think

>collection of other beings
Now this is simply what you have projected into because prima facie there are no beings in the text except those of 'paper beings', which is simply to say
'actants'; they're not real, they're not beings, they're functions, objects, whatever. And with this in mind, this collection mechanic is hardly specific to Pokemon, you collect things in a huge number of video-games.

>It is patriarchal and colonialist, a story of a boy becoming a man by mastering the world around him
I for one would love to see a justification of this

>supposedly Ash beats Gary because Ash loves his pokemon.The relation a player has to his collected pokemon is not love.
No shit, when I read Wuthering Heights I didn't actually fall in love with Catherine. I wonder why.

Jesus, I love coming in to a thread late.
90% of the time at this point in a thread the discussion in NEVER about the original topic, but seven or so shades away from it.
So here I come bringing my wit and focus into this thread; uttering the statement-

"lol this guy must have Peter Molyneux as his speech writer AMIRITE?????"

IAMRITE

d&e is like a cat with these threads

Even if no game currently is worthy of literary criticism to you, don't at least agree that there is the potential for some future game to change this?

>>1544815
>Wouldn't you agree most mechanism of literary criticism could be applied to any kind of representation?
Sure, but I've never said they haven't. What I've been concerned with is whether they're appropriate to apply to this or that representation.

>but the tools seem fairly media neutral.
You won't find chiaroscuro in any novel, nor could you find the fundamental technique of 'perspective' in any literary text, or sfumato or whatever. As far as literary devices can be used in other mediums? I'm not so sure how you can divide those up. Seems to me you can use quite a few. What's even more problematic, at least for me, is the fact that literary criticism uses the same tools as the object it criticises, instead of film or art.

>I don't know if you've read Roland Barthes Mythologies, but that book made clear to me that critical thought can be held against any object. In the book Barthes is ease discussing literature, professional wrestling, food customs, the press, advertising language, propaganda, even the vacation habits of royalty.
I've read quite a few essays from it, like the ones on steak and chips, striptease, the wrestling one and so on. Unfortunately I read them before I had the slightest clue on Structuralism. It would probably be worth my while to go over them again.

>>1544829

>>1544789
The pokemon story actually makes sense for the gigantic irony involved. The player really gets some cognitive dissonance building up if they pay much attention to the plot at all.
On the SS Anne when you fight Gary he has a Raticate. He never has his Raticate again. It died. In Lavender town you meet him and he's all bummed out 'cause he's mourning over his dead pokemon. What does Ash do? Challange him to a pokemon battle of course, because Ash is too stupid to pick up on the queues.
So Gary decides he's gonna be league champ, and goes and achieves that dream, only to lose the title moments later to you. Professor Oak, of course, is Gary's only living relative, and when he hears that Gary is league champ he goes to visit Gary, only to find out that Ash Ketchum is the new League champ. Oak is dissapointed in his grandson, but congratulates Ash.
Of course, the player shouldn't feel any satisfaction from any of this, watching Gary Oak's dreams be torn down, but Ash fucking loves it.

This is a pretty big irony. Ash Ketchum is comparable to Humbert Humbert, really.

>>1544856
LOL

it's like you guys are really in deep thought over this stuff

Yo Bro, my turn, pass me the controller

>>1544858
>>1544858

i can read /v/ infograms too!

>>1544849
Literary criticism does take the same media as its object, but won't use all the same tools of its object. You might use a psychoanalytic idea to critique an book, but it doesn't have to be used to write the book. You could take use a historical study to write a book (making sure it fits with history appropriately), but need not pay that attention in your criticism.

It seems to me the tools of criticism and creation are pretty similar, except when they start dealing with very material aspects of medium (you probably won't use c++ to write your novel, but then again go check out Neil Stephensons Cryptonomicon).

But I think we're in general agreence.Video games could be the subject of worthwhile study, but most don't hold very interesting postive results. Most will turn into a kind of symptomatic diagnosing that will need hefty doses of psychoanalyses and political responsibility. Certain video games, just like film or animation, do potentially deal with very interesting issues.

The current video game institutiions we have make it difficult to make good video games. Sales and marketing still have too much influence.

But to repeat, any object is worthy of critical study if a critic decides he wants to think about it. All aspects of our society will tell us something if we look hard and long enough.

>>1544868

>>1544879
jesus, every time with that shit wash your fucking hands you knew you were getting the controller in advance.

>>1544887
when you people are writing walls of text because you didn't challenge d&e's turn from critical analysis to literary critical analysis, you've already trolled yourself enough.

This seems pretty normal "media studies" fair to me. Modern media studies has enabled geeks to take on things like video games, the internet and anime as "intellectually important." Of course they very well may be but that doesn't mean the work being done ON THEM by these students is at all meaningful.

All that these students are doing is translating (in this example) what "playing Zelda" is to a bunch of older dudes who have never played a game before. Just look at any media studies grad student who is working on something like this and you'll see something like "my thesis is about how the fanfiction community centered around anime conventions and causes works to be wholly made of simulcra" which is followed by fifty pages of them explaining why a bunch of 17 year olds dress up as Japanese cartoon characters every so often. There is almost never meaningful analysis in this stuff because the people who pursue it are NOT actually fully trained in critical theory OR literature OR philosophy.

>>1544886
So, I'm feeling pretty confident in my assertions about the legitmacy of videogames a medium. Here's a list of games that actually provide nuanced products.

Metal Gear Solid Series-Primairly MGS1 through MGS4, the Metal Gear and Metal Gear Solid Snake aren't very detailed.

Killer 7 - A very surreal game, explores lots of techniques with representation, and does a fair amount of musing on psychological topics. It reminds me of David Lynch's movies alot.

Seaman - an old Dreamcast game, many games like it exist. they take the form of conversational psuedo-Ais. The player simply spends time talking with a large index of material, exploring a fictitious person.

>>1544849

You say that literature is different because its criticism takes the same medium. Lots of other mediums do this. 20th century art has a strong history of works that critique past work. Yves Klein's work is a great criticism of the wishy-washy mysticism of Abstract Expressionism.

Rappers often rap about how other Rappers are important or how they suck.

Composer's make new arrangements of other's works.

Even the DVD phenomena of audio commentary, where the film is viewed while simultaneously having a critical audio track played over it.

>>1544884
That doesn't mean it's wrong. Also, the Lolita comparison was original as far as I know.

>>1544886
>But to repeat, any object is worthy of critical study if a critic decides he wants to think about it. All aspects of our society will tell us something if we look hard and long enough.
Cool, and I have never contested that. I have simply called into question how appropriate as an object of literary criticism video-games are. But yeah we are pretty much in agreement, or as close to agreement as we will get without further eliciting unproductive disagreement (i.e. what would come about if I started talking about your choice of games)

>>1544898
that wasn't a turn onionring, i corrected myself

>>1544916
I'd put Longest Journey up as a good example of this as well. Especially when followed up with Dreamfall. They were both as effective to me as a well written book. In some ways more so.

I can honestly say that Dreamfall broke my heart.

>>1544934
>You say that literature is different because its criticism takes the same medium
No, and besides, that has nothing to do with my argument, that was a side remark. What you've said has nothing to do with my argument either.

>>1544938
well okay it's even worse. guys arguing over nothing because you didn't make your terms clear.

this thread is homo

>>1544954
Actually I caught myself fairly early before anyone with half a brain put forward their remarks. That was maybe halfway through idk.

>>1544941
>They were both as effective to me as a well written book. In some ways more so.

>I can honestly say that Dreamfall broke my heart.
Emotional response is not an acceptable basis for any literary evaluation that purports to be more than subjective taste.

>>1544938
Cool. That said, while the games I listed above (MGS, Killer 7, Seaman) are very interesting, they're not my favorite games. My favorite games tend to be rather moronic, or have narratives that are hardly healthy. Things like Dwarf Fortress, Guilty Gear and Street Fighter. (Don't even get me going on the racial overtones of Street Fighter, and yes I feel like a badass when I beat my friends.)

But yeah, I do totally recommend Barthes Mythologies. The short essays are all pretty interesting, although some are very french and outside of my cultural understanding (I'm recalling one essay on a murder trial that happened in France).

The best part of the book is the final longer essay called Myth Today. Its a look at how objects can gain meaning through appropriation. As someone who's creative process alternates between theory and collage, it has definitely shaped how I think about communication. The text also serves as a decent introduction to Semiotics.

>>1544964
Even if no game currently is worthy of literary criticism to you, don't you at least agree that there is the potential for some future game to change this?

>>1544975
Just read some Hardy and/or grow the fuck up

>>1544979
Yes, D&E, myself and others in this thread are not willing to count out the possibility of meaningful video games, even if we only have moderately decent ones currently.

>>1544983
Anon, you confuse me. What does Thomas Hardy have to do with any of this?

>>1544489
>I don't contest that video-games conceivably don't have the potential to be bonified objects of critical study.
>thinks vidya might one day be a bona fide
object of critical study

Quite possibly the most self-damning thing you've ever posted, DE.

"Video games are serious business, guys. It's very important that Roger Ebert respects my hobby!"

All games are art, just like all books and movies are. Something doesn't become art just because you like it. There's good and bad art.

>>1544997
Sure, I didn't say they would be correct or incorrect in being so as such

Games should be admired as as the product of a craft like sculptures or paintings.

Super Metroid and Fire Emblem are better examples or games as art that faggy pretentious games like Shadow of the Colossus or Flower.

>>1545006
>All games are art, just like all books and movies are. Something doesn't become art just because you like it. There's good and bad art.
Then there's misuses of the term 'art', just like you've demonstrated

>>1545006
ART ONLY EXISTS AS A CAPACITY OF THE MIND. NO COHERENT ENTITY IN AND OF ITSELF IS ART OUTSIDE A THINKING MIND.

IF A MIND PERCIEVES A PORTION OF HIS REALITY AS BOTH EMOTIONALLY PRVACATIVE AND RATIONALLY MEANINGFULL, THAT'S ALL THAT ART IS.

NOW GO HOME

>>1545017
>Games should be admired as as the product of a craft
this, 100x

>>1545021
>IF A MIND PERCIEVES A PORTION OF HIS REALITY AS BOTH EMOTIONALLY PRVACATIVE AND RATIONALLY MEANINGFULL, THAT'S ALL THAT ART IS.
this is also a misuse of the term 'art'

>>1545028
go jizz in onionring's face. I'm going to harm someone you know in real life. THIS IS A WRITTEN THREAT.

>>1545021
Fully agreed. I don't think most people know how to draw a line between themselves and the external world.

>>1545037
>go jizz in onionring's face.
how bout i jizz in yours faggot LOL

>>1545043
ok, now I'm mad.

Deep&Edgy, I've seen you on /lit/ every day. I have two questions:

(1) Do you ever sleep?

(2) Why doesn't anyone ever seem to respond favorably to your posts?

These are serious questions, by the by.

i am just a bystander don't involev me in your silly orgies

Fuck this thread, take it over to /v/ and let them stroke themselves by telling each other what a legit art form vidya games are. The girl is fugly as fug and takes pictures of herself with vidya game controllers.

>>1545054
he's in prison for touching kids
don't listen to his 'reasons'

>>1545054
>(1) Do you ever sleep?
yes

>(2) Why doesn't anyone ever seem to respond favorably to your posts?
I don't wipe people's arses for them

>>1545054
fuck off you little turd nugget.

>>1545060
Can anyone else confirm this?

>>1545061
How would one go about wiping asses through the internet?

>>1545071
He WAS in a Pennsylvania Prison until ~2008, though I didn't know it was for molesting kids.

>>1545071
it's true - cellmate here

>>1545071
Yep, he got out 3 years ago.

>>1545075
That's fucked up.

D&e aren't you technically on parole?

He's like a cut-price Socrates then...

copyright

I am the best

>>1545109
if you thought you were gonna be the last person to post in a thread ALLABOUTYOU then you need to
LURK MOAR


IMA BE HERE ALLL DAY

>>1545142
`

>>1545146
were you think your goin pal???

>>1545151
`

>>1545157
pic related, it's you

>>1545165
`

>>1545170
pic related, also you

>>1545177
`

>>1545170
i has you back. we gonn bust this lil scrub wat

>>1545179
mongolian scum

Where do you (or did you) go to school Deep and Edgy, and are you an undergrad or a grad student?

>>1545183
`

>>1545186
/thread

>>1545193
`

>>1545185
I'm going back to my undergraduate studies when parole runs out, then probably grad school. I'm interested in being a philosophy TA at a state school, if grades and health allow.

>>1545195
not fair, gandalf wins those are the rules!

>>1545206
`

>>1545204
What's your major gonna be?

>>1545209
Philosophy, maybe minors in Anthropology or Women's Studies.

>>1545208
Anyway. How's the MW fanfic coming out?

>>1545211
`

>>1545210
If this thread is any indication, you sound like a genuinely boring person.

>>1545212
You don't mean that you have given it up, right? I was looking forward to it...

>>1545222
`

>>1545222
he's already written it apparently arcuied brunestud guy knows him irl and he's seen them.

>>1545226
Okay, imagine Gandalf commanding a swat team along the Great Wall of China guarding the Salty Spitoon from entrance by D&E

red rover time bitches

>>1545237
`

>185 posts and 12 image replies omitted. Click Reply to view.

stay classy, /lit/.

>take an English class
>write a paper about a video game
>get kicked out

Bravo.

Maybe next time this student with Ass Burgers is assigned to write a book report he'll actually have to pick up and read a book. Or maybe he'll pull this stunt again and try to write a paper on Naruto fanfiction authored by XxXToxicNinjaMaster1996XxX

Btw you illiterate bastards - in the context you were using it, the term is "cues", not "queues"

Goddamn you suck

>>1545287
lol

>>1545275
>take an English class
>write a paper about a video game
>get an A
>mfw free range topic assingments are best assingments

found the original article: http://dalnews.dal.ca/2011/02/11/zelda.html

A few games that might interest you.

Coma
http://armorgames.com/play/6286/coma

Loved
http://armorgames.com/play/6086/loved

El Labirinto Esferico
http://www.gamesforwork.com/games/play-10770.html

Take Something Literally
http://armorgames.com/play/4813/take-something-literally

unneccessarry bump

relevant sage