/lit/ - Literature

>>15389292
because by making the "villains" of the story noble and strong it's more meaningful when the Greeks defeat them. turning your enemies into subhuman caricatures makes the story less interesting because people know reality is more nuanced than "OUR PEOPLE ARE GOOD, THEIR PEOPLE ARE BAD HURR" this is of course why the demonizing of Hitler is so absurd, and why only npc zogbots buy into the mainstream narrative regarding Hitler and WWII.

>>15389292
Do you watch sports, OP? Is it more impressive when the #1 seed beats the #2 seed or the #16 seed? If you're a fan of the #1 seed, are you gonna talk about the time they beat the #2 seed or the #16 seed?

>>15389292
That started with Turnus in the Aeneid.

>>15389340
Morality is not the same as skill.

>>15389292
>Why are Greeks portraying their enemies in positive manner

High IQ

>>15389330
In nazi Germany you'd be gassed alongside the other autists like you.

>>15389292
I think it has to do with how Troie was destroyed after the war. People were scared German would support hitler philosophy again so they shamed his memory.

>>15389330
This post is so incoherent it's funny. Yeah true Aryans never dehumanize their enemies! I believe that.

>>15389292
The Bible has a different approach; good and evil in the Bible is how characters relate themselves to God. In the Iliad Homer isn't trying to make a theological point, but rather a tragic one about the true cost of war.

If Moses had written the story of the Iliad, then Paris and Helen would have been drowned in a storm returning to Troy. That's what divine justice would call for. Homer however is more willing to sit with the uncomfortable idea of divine vindictiveness which follows the Greek conception of the gods.

>>15389330
I agree with everything in this post expect
>the demonizing of Hitler is so absurd
Maybe the extent it’s gone to today is absurd but to claim Hitler was not morally reprehensible is stupid. He was no Hector, that’s for sure.

>>15389355
It was for the Greeks.

>>15392175
>>15390753

thanks for the inpute, guys ,, mush appreciate it!

>>15389330
>turning your enemies into subhuman caricatures makes the story less interesting... only npc zogbots buy into the mainstream narrative regarding Hitler and WWII.
whiteguyblinking.gif

>>15392175
Nothing Hitler did was particularly unprecedented in the grand scheme of history, yet you'll hardly see Caesar or Genghiams Khan treated as cartoon super villains for the people they massacred

>>15389292
The Trojan weren't religious enemies, nor were they out to exterminate the Greeks. The whole Trojan war is an unfortunate consequences of a woman's bad choices and ultimately of the gods being dick. It's entirely a tragic event.

>>15392207
Very debatable, but most importantly Hitler and his victims didn't die more than 500 years ago.
That's for the villainization, as for the cartoonish way it is done nowadays this is mostly a consequence of our cartoonish pop culture, and I mean that in the literal sense that every event or figure eventually ends up being processed through cartoons and with cartoon logic.

So that's why you see Hitler being brought up everywhere even when not relevant, as a shorthand for ultimate evil. It's become such a shitfest that even the people who do it regularly can only do it in a tongue-in-cheek manner.

Compare that to what Claude Lanzmann has said about the commodification of Holocaust culture (hint: he despises it). It's not so much the Holocaust survivors that make Hitler into Super Satan Joker 1.0 as it the American pop-media producers of all kind and pedigree, from the Hollywood executive to the struggling niche webcomic artist. All people whose connection to Hitler's war crimes is very tenuous, all people who are, ultimately, as clueless as the demographic they entertain.

>>15392250
Dude, you're talking to a Holocaust denier.

>>15392254
low iq poster is only interested in the resolution some black-and-white political question, so he can't understand a post that is carefully written, and well thought out

>>15389330
This, unironically.

As time goes on it is good to see the quiet, ground-level deconstruction of the post-WW2 narrative continues...slowly yet surely...

>>15392207
The much more obvious example is the asymmetry in how Stalin is treated.

>>15392280
No, the person being replied to is a Holocaust denier.

>>15392254
Scary to be around people who question authority, who are rebels against the mainstream narrative, ain't it? ;-)

>>15392207
In America you are allowed to question anything. You can be a skeptic about 9/11, you can believe the government killed Kennedy, and you can even deny the Armenian Genocide. The ONLY thing that is off limits is the Holocaust. It is literally the one thing you can never question. Even if you believe in it, simply asking if the "6 million" numbers add up is social suicide. I remember in college I would see people brandishing hammer and sickle T shirts, Che shirts, and I even saw a girl with a Mao pin. I never once saw a swastika. Why? Aren't all mass murderers bad? Why are Hitler and Nazism the boogie men of all boogie men? Is there even a small chance that its because Hitler's enemies happened to win WWII and were the ones to write the narrative? Is it because kikes know that they're not in any danger from modern day communists, so there is no need to silence them?

Kike lovers like >>15390753 and >>15391354 will make a million excuses as to why this double standard exists. They will never be sentient and self aware enough to see that a spell has been cast on the zeitgeist of the West post-WWII, and that they are very much under its spell.

>>15392307
Lovely how you're calling a kike lover the most anti-semitic person on the whole board

>>15392254
Then I hope I have shed a new light on the question that will allow him to get farther than /pol/ infographics and "you're a fucking antisemite kill yourself now" would have gotten him.

>>15392302
Fucking kek, I'm just advising the guy so he doesn't waste his time.

>>15392333
Shut the fuck up you tripnigger. Why don't you and buttercunt go fist each other until your attention-whore, faggot anuses prolapse.

>>15392307
There we go, right on time.

>>15392344
You think you're going to get the cartoonishness out of the thinking of a Holocaust denier? No.

>>15392254
Why do you people leave reddit to come here and turn it into reddit

>>15392345
>if you believe x then you are a wholly irrational/evil person there is no point talking to
get thee hence to reddit

>>15392300
I will state this again in clear terms, do not mistake my meaning. I don't misunderstand what you have written, I understand perfectly what you have written and what you mean in writing it. You are a retard. You are a butternut squash armpit leaking juice onto the lever to make the candies go weee.

You have completely failed to understand what was written here:
>>15392250

and further, before you aim for solace in this fact, you are even more retarded than the semen licking 63-year old virgin posting from his local library about national socialism saving the west while scratching his pubis until the large infected sores from his previous sessions burst and begin to bleed

>>15392307
Fuck Mao, but comparing Che and Hitler is pretty disingenuous

>>15392250
I mean even in the context of the 20th century its not really that extraordinary. Between Russia, China, Turkey, and the clusterfuck that was post colonial Africa I really don't see objectively how the Holocaust warrants the focus it gets.

>>15392254
The implicit assumption of my post is that the Holocaust happened. Take your soft hands and weak chin a whine somewhere else.

>>15392361
I understood your post, it was completely impotent as an intervention here, and trite as a reflection; you think Claude Lanzmann isn't making consumer products?

>>15392376
What's with you people and chins

>>15392361
You were telling someone who has a cartoonish idea of the Holocaust being faked that he shouldn't blame the Holocaust survivors for the things he finds objectionable about its representation. You are talking to someone who wants every Jew in the ground.

>>15392376
>The implicit assumption of my post is that the Holocaust happened.
Not so much implicit as absolutely unstated, in your head.

>>15392353
>There we go, right on time.
Jesus you sound like a fucking woman. Your curt, snobbish dismissal of legitimate arguments is no substitute for actual debate. The zog brainwashing has worked wonders on you, hasn't it?
>TEHEHEH HOLOCAUST DENIERS ARE SO RIDICULOUS THAT WE DON'T EVER HAVE TO DEBATE, WE CAN JUST DISMISS THEM TEHEHE
This tactic has worked for many decades, and it may continue to work for many more, but I'm telling you people will grow sick of it. The kikes cannot ignore the facts forever. Once we are another generation or two removed from the Holocaust people are going to be able to look at it with more objectivity than ever before, and when that happens you kikes better be ready.

>>15392389
>its not the first time someone has called me out on my weak physionomy
Kek you really are dumb

>>15392407
Yes!

THE TIGER IS OUT

>>15392405
>I don't think the holocaust is that extraordinary in the grand scheme of history
>"DUUUUURRRR IM RETARDED WHY ARE YOU DENYING THE HOLOCAUST DURRRR"

>>15392407
That's been happening for a while already. Even more than denial they're kvetching about people simply not caring much anymore.

>>15392407
>you sound like a fucking woman
>m-my day will come!
>you must be a kike!
You sound like the woman, pal.

>>15392407
But you go around dismissing a lot of what people say because they're kikes or kike lovers or whatever, just because an opinion is unpopular doesn't mean it's better or more truthful

>>15392422
The Holocaust wasn't even named in the original post, and the poster IS a Holocaust denier. No biggie, just.

>>15392284
>muh honorable nazis

>>15392407
>legitimate arguments
All you said was "muh stalin", that's not an argument.

>>15392414
This is all text on a screen, you may like to believe that you can tell what people look like based on their posts but really you just accuse people of having undesirable physical traits to bolster your feelings of superiority

>>15392437
I am that poster. 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust and from a historical context it is entirely unextraordinary. From a 20th century context it is not outside the norm at all.

There's a lot of implicit moral lessons within the Illiad if you read between the lines. Most of these Greeks had no real bone in this fight, but were there because it was their duty to fight. Likewise Hector was doing his duty and just because he's on the other side doesn't mean you have to hate him.

>>15392452
That is an argument, the discrepancy in how the two are treated is obvious and politically motivated.

>>15392462
holy based reddit btfo

>>15392474
Nobody is any more interested in this shit than they were when John Kaspar came out with it, just fuck off.

>>15392462
That's an unconventional approach to Holocaust denial, but not an unprecedented one; it's called "minimising."

>>15392462

>>15392484
Actually a lot of people are very interested in it, and increasingly find the comical caricatures of Hitler as some abnormal evil ridiculous.

>>15392491
That's not 'denial' at all you retard, it's just not partaking in hysterical moralizing

>>15392491
I'm not denying anything, you're lying in that regard. Several million people is a magnitude smaller than the greatest genocides in all of history. The casualties of Hitler were significantly smaller than those of contemporary regimes in the 20th century. This is objective truth, no emotional appeals you make can negate the fact that there is nothing empirically out of the norm with genocides Hitler undertook.

>>15392495
Incorrect.

>>15392516
No, it's denial alright.

>>15392523
Holocaust minimising is Holocaust denial.

>>15392491
Holy fuck you juden are insatiable

>>15392523
>>15392491
It's all about that 6 million but fuck those 40 million Slavs. Why do Jews have to be the biggest victims?

>>15392556
Anyway lads, enjoy your Holocaust denial thread, I'm off to read some classics.

>>15392556
Holocaust affirmation is the real crime. Unless you are a yid and hate goyim. Then you are following talmud.

>>15392567
japs killed way more chinese as well

>>15392556
I'm not denying anything, you're lying because your ideology is based on hysterical feels over reals.

>>15392556
fuck off jewish supremacist

>>15392556
>No, it's denial alright.
lol you can't even grasp the basic definition of simple words

>>15392381
You have mistaken me (>>15392250) for someone else. >>15392250 was my first post itt, this is my second post.
And no, Lanzmann can be cringe and self-important, but he's not essentially a ready-for-consumption filmmaker, in fact only people who are actually interested in Holocaust history or who want to appear intelligent to a certain class of boring people watch his films. At any rate his film are not cartoonish and to not participate in the cartoonish reduction I was describing in my posts.
>>15392298
Now this is a more interesting observation, and it is worth noting that the asymmetry has been reduced since the 60s.
>>15392353
He didn't strike me as a denier-type honestly. I can not fully agree with his statement that nothing Hitler did was unprecedented, that doesn't really make it denial, there are plenty of earlier examples of genocide.

>>15392376
>I mean even in the context of the 20th century its not really that extraordinary.
This I can agree with without much reservations, but I don't think the 20th century is that mundane in global history. There are precedents, like Gengis Khan as you said, but they are in a sense less repeatable (and all were still catastrophic in their own right).

> Between Russia, China, Turkey, and the clusterfuck that was post colonial Africa I really don't see objectively how the Holocaust warrants the focus it gets.
It's a very legit question, my own answer would probably revolve around something like Eurocentrism (and Americanocentrism but the US is a knock-off of Europe in most respects). Our society care so much more about the Holocaust than about the Armenian and Rwandan genocide because it was mostly a genocide of Western Europeans against (Western and Eastern) European. Same reason the war crimes of the Japanese Imperial army tend to be unrecognized (in the West at least, in Japan they're under recognized for different reasons).

I think most people would tend to put all those genocides in the same bag and only rank them by death scale if they were asked explicitly. But the underlying consciousness places much more weight on the Holocaust and I think the Eurocentrism I mentioned earlier is one big factor.
It's not only just the Holocaust btw, the legacy of Nazism and the European-American response to it is on of the defining force of the modern Western world. You see it even in business managment ("agile" managment), in popular language (acronyms everywhere), and generally in advertising (a direct sucessor of Nazi propaganda techniques). Simply put, our culture is obsessed with the Nazis because it owes so much to the Nazis (and mostly not in a good way) just as it has built itself symbolically as in opposition to Nazism (see: basically all antiracism movements).

Maxims to take away from this thread:
>Americans are physically unable to perceive a story or the world outside the framework of “good and bad”
>/pol/tards will derail threads and add bait to the end of their posts because they thrive off yous, or maybe they haven’t even read the source material and would rather debate within their slim area of knowledge

>>15392599
For those interested a TL;DR of that post could be: "We hate the Nazis so much because of the false consciousness that comes from living in a post-Nazi world".

>>15392349
So like a frognigger? Go back to your fucking website board you inbred wigger faggot.

>>15392365
They were unironically very similar

>>15392599
I like the NRx take that were essentially living under a fascism whose founding "myth" was the Holocaust in the same way that, say, America's traditional founding myth was the Revolution. I also think there's something to be said about the way to the Holocausr is exploited by the Zionist lobby for contemporary geopolitical ends. The Israel Lobby by mearsheimer documents the success of this pretty well.

>>15392690
that is not an NRx take. The nrx guys were frequently accused of being basically a bunch of Jews or jew sympathizers by other right wing people.

The central figure, Moldbug, is Jewish and he does not see the Holocaust as the founding myth of the West, he ties Progressivism to Puritan Christianity and denies that Jews did anything but hop on the bandwagon. He talks more even about the Civil Rights Act as a founding myth than anything to do with the holocaust.

>>15392250
The Ottoman empire committed many genocides against Christians during it's contraction in WW1, the Soviets themselves as well as their satellite states committed genocides more often than not.

>>15392722
The Nazi and Ottoman genocides were actually a lot more excusable than the Soviet ones. They had lost their wars and were about to stop existing and undertook them as a last ditch effort while Pol Pots and Stalin genocides were completely casual and natural.

>>15392690
The idea of Holocaust as a founding myth for contemporary America is interesting (although really the Revolution, the Founding Fathers and the Constitution is still a huge reference for most Americans). But I'm very suspicious of attempts at labeling anything contemporary with the word "fascist". It's a loaded word that's almost always used as merely a shortcut for "authoritarian and bad". Fascism is a specific political movement, and nazism is another related but ultimately different one. I don't think we should call anything fascist or Nazi until we can point to explicit fondamental similarities and also explain why the fundamental dissimilarities don't matter.

I don't know much about fascism but for instance in Nazism the mythos of a return to an earlier, pre-Christian and less corrupted state is essential, so Nazism is incompatible with unabashed liberal progressivism (it's also uncompatible with most traditionalism really).

>>15392349
>Shut the fuck up you tripnigger. Why don't you and buttercunt go fist each other until your attention-whore, faggot anuses prolapse.

I think we should do something about these tripfags. They're a menace to this board's culture and have proceeded unchecked for too long. Complaining about them is in some way giving what they want. So I think we should dox them instead, send them pizzas or something like that as in the good ol' days.
I think we already have enough data of someone like "Nabokov's hobbie" (I refuse to say her name) to mess with her life and cause her some trouble. We have people with tecnological knowledge here to accomplish this, they only lack the direction and will. We should crush the trips. This might teach them a lesson, set an example.
So what do you say? Let's do it!

>>15392720
If you were older than 18 you'd remember the diverse range of though encompassed under NRx in the early 00s before the rise of the ethnat Altright

>>15392772
This guy fucks unironically

>>15389292
Because everyone on both sides knew that they weren't very different from each other. Basically no one wanted to fight, but you have to help out your brother no matter what.

>>15392772
Go on and dox me faggot. The only thing you're gonna find is sock puppet accounts and fake pictures lmao.

>>15392785
>the early 00s
>NRx
You're using the term in an idiosyncratic manner then. It's associated with the post-Moldbug sphere of blogs that operated from 07-14ish mostly. Lots of them still post obviously

>>15392302
>Scary to be around people who question authority, who are rebels against the mainstream narrative, ain't it? ;-)

>>15392745
This argument sounds strange to me. I don't accept Soviet purges but I can understand them as products of the paranoia of a dictator clinging to absolute power, while this German 'last ditch effort' is nothing but a narcissist wanting to go down in history by murdering millions.

>>15392750
I'd generally agree with you that fascism should only refer to a select few mid-20th century movements in Europe, born in the trenches of the Somme. I think that the myth of the Revolution is very ingrained in American policy in particular but the shadow of WW2 is indisputably hanging over the global system that America enforces as a whole.

>>15392800
I meant 10s not 00s. There were a lot of different people with a lot of different interpretations hanging under the NRx umbrella and those that are still around have ended up in different directions. Moldbug is very unwilling to make any comments at all on anything veering anywhere close to Jewish influences on the state of society but then you have people like the Myth 20C guys who are going the complete other way.

>>15392866
Wow... incredible how this is perfectly appropriate for propaganda... how could someone share even some ideas with these crazy, evil, evil monsters?
Thank god we won...

>>15389292
Wow, what a retarded question. Maybe its because Hector and Priam and the Trojans were actually morally just and good people while Hitler literally was a psychotic amphetamine addict pedophile homosexual with one testicle. Are you so anti-semetic to not believe that the Nazis turned them into lampshades and soap and threw their babies into pits of flaming feces? The Jews are honest people, look through history and thats what you will find.

/pol/ retards, gtfo of my board

>REEEEEEEE

>>15392794
>The only thing you're gonna find is sock puppet accounts and fake pictures lmao.
I think you're underestimating the power of anon. We already did MORE with less. There is an incredible force right here at hand if motivated. People here do things better and faster even than intelligency agencies, you wouldn't believe.
So you should think twice before calling attention to yourself in a place like this. And I'm not talking about me as a person. I have the will but not the knowledge while some other anons have the knowledge but not the will. Your problem beggins when we make an alliance, when our interests converge.
THEN, Charlie, you get fucked.

>>15393045
I'm not reading that shit come back when you'll find actual info on my nonexistent identity

>>15389340
Sneed?

>>15392393
To me as a holocaust-sceptic it is entirely inconceivable that Aryans would want anyone in the ground, this is why the holocaust cannot have happened. Only the Semite is capable of such hatred and evil

Hector was a cool dude
Paris was the initial cunt
Agamemnon did as a good ruler should do
Achilles was a cunt
Thetis did a silly cunt move
Then Zeus eclipsed the cuntery
Then Achilles decided to outcunt him

>>15392393
That quitte a lot of sophism right here. Stop putting word in other people.

>>15394694
Scrolling down I thought at first glance this was a poem you had written about the subject. Imagine my disappointment

>>15392491
Considering how many people died in ww2 it is far from being crazy. I mean seeing how many germanoid murdered French people during WW1. They should be held responsible for this too.

>>15389330
>" this is of course why the demonizing of Hitler is so absurd, and why only npc zogbots buy into the mainstream narrative regarding Hitler and WWII.
The lack of self awareness in this post is staggering. The Third Reich was literally built on this kind of demonization.

>>15392866
The purge of official and hight member is just a small part of the casualty made by the Soviet.

>>15395075
It is a poem tho

>>15389292
read Nietzsche.