/lit/ - Literature

>>15345998
>women
put them in their place, arabro.

There are prerequisites for reformation in Islam. Islamic feminism can be based on Quranism.

what if they wear transparent burkas you see the pusy haha

Islam will be tamed by the modern world just as christianity was.
Starting to see that as a leftist I should support capitalism until it destroys all antiquated cultures around the world

>>15345998
Absolutely based. If they can feminize Islam in a few generations, it'll be crushed.

>>15345998
everything that women touch gets corrupted and ruined, muslims bros you got too cocky.....

>>15346034
why? are you naturally a faggot?

>>15346056
My politics are simple: anti-white, anti-religion, anti-man, and (most importantly) anti-gamer

>>15346034
Then that would mean capitalism is ultimately good.

>>15346068
>t.

>>15346068
Shit-tier bait, fuck outta here

>>15345998
Islam commited the fundamental mistake, it came to the west, say goodbye

>>15346056
>Leftist
There's your answer.

>>15345998
Considering the Saudi Monarchy, and all BASED Traditionalist Islamic monarchies are promoting this shit, I'm going to say: Yes.

>>15346047
This a mutt female in Denmark who is irrelevant
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherin_Khankan

HOWEVER

>"It is considered legitimate for a girl to be married at the age of nine," the manifesto says. "Most pure girls will be married by sixteen or seventeen, while they are still young and active."

>The translated version of the document—which including the analysis is 41 pages long—extols the virtues of motherhood and promulgates the idea that the best place for a woman is in the house, living a life of "sedentariness" and fulfilling her "divine duty of motherhood." It portrays Western civilization as a godless, materialistic society that has caused women to depart from their God-given roles as wives and mothers.

>It doesn’t put women on "equal" footing with men because the two sexes have distinctly different roles under Islam: "Women gain nothing from the idea of their equality with men apart from thorns," the manifesto states. "Under 'equality' they have to work and rest on the same days as men even though they have ‘monthly complications’ and pregnancies and so on, in spite of the nature of her life and responsibilities to their husband, sons and religion."

>It also envisions an education system in which girls complete their formal schooling by age 15.

>"Because of this, a woman studies these worthless worldly sciences in the farthest mountains and the deepest valleys," the manifesto continues. "She travels, intent upon learning Western lifestyle and sitting in the midst of another culture, to study the brain cells of crows, grains of sand and the arteries of fish!" It would be more appropriate, the document says, for Muslim women to study fiqh: Islamic jurisprudence and understanding of the Shariah. "Hence, there is with no need for her to flit here and there to get degrees and so on, just so she can try to prove that her intelligence is greater than a man’s."

>Ultimately, "It is always preferable for a woman to remain hidden and veiled, to maintain society from behind this veil," the document states. "This, which is always the most difficult role, is akin to that of a director, the most important person in a media production, who is behind the scenes organising."

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WEhb26PuWQw

It's not possible. People in 3rd world countries get told nightmare stories about how if they go to the west their wives leave them and become prostitutes. 3rd worlders are smart enough not to repeat your mistakes.

>>15346135
this actually sounds reasonable. It does not work though. Capitalst global competition needs men and women in the work force or society collapses (life is not affordable on one income). A sharia nation only works if it is split into small communes. It would also demand men to accept much smaller luxuries because if you cant keep up with the rest of the world that is the drawback. Ofc muslims are ascetic in theory anyway. But practically revolt would emerge. The muslim savage wants the riches and his sharia. It is not possible unless you are lucky (saudis)

Lot of anons in here are fundamentally ignorant to that fact that within Islam itself their are very clear and unambiguous mechanisms to prevent in sort of reformation. Thinking anything like this is going to work is a embarrassing sign of retardation.

The biggest difference with Christianity is the perceived scholarly source of each scripture. Within Christianity all the way back to the 1st century of it's inception you had disagreements on the what was canon and what wasn't. The Bible was likely originally conceived in Aramaic yet no texts survives in that from. The oldest surviving biblical texts are written hundred of years after Jesus death and are in Greek so as such they aren't even original, they're translations. Various old transcripts of the Bible differ from one another. And that's not even going into the "According to" wording which leads to the conclusion that these are at BEST 2nd had accounts.
The dubious scholarship of Bible is what lead the vast majority of Christians to regards it as an "inspired" text that has underwent noticeable changes. As such it's not that hard to disregard elements of it and innovate outside of it.

In Islam has no such issues exists. As a result of this to reform Islam you'd need to undermine the belief within Islam that the Quran is the literal unaltered word of God. Woke politics isn't going to do that. Millions upon million of Muslim are willing to fight physically and violently to defend what they perceive as the word of God.

>>15346204
Islam is expansionist. It's possible if the men are warriors and people of the book do the labor

>>15346227
Kek

>>15345998
This

Learn the history of Shariah. It was invented gradually by the first generations of Muslims. Do not forget that Islam is based not only on the Quran, but also on the Hadith. Muslims collected hadiths for a long time, so Islam was not given whole and complete. It has been developed for several centuries.

>>15346264
The revisionist school of Islam was always pretty retarded and it was thoroughly destroyed after the discovery of Quran manuscripts and the advent of carbon dating. Now a days no serious scholar, even a secular one, denies that the Quran was written during the time of Mohammed because they'd be arguing against a demonstrable reality.

>>15346286
>>15346227
how did the early christians and muslims practise their faith if it took centuries after to develop the translations/theology?

The best that Europeans can do is create more Islamic studies institutes. Although there are already quite a lot of good critical studies of the Quran that refute the traditional Islamic concept of Muhammad and the history of the writing of the Quran.

>>15346292
The so-called 'revisionist school' consists of several researchers, each of whom has several works on the history of Islam. Which theses were refuted?

>>15346093
Saud is a puppet regime hated by its people and al-Qaeda and everyone

>>15346286
> Muslims collected hadiths for a long time, so Islam was not given whole and complete. It has been developed for several centuries.
This a massively untrue. Corroborated hadith chains across thousands of individuals across vast continents all lead hadiths back to Mohammed. If you're saying they were all made up after Mohammed then the coordination to pull off a lie like that would be unparalleled in human history. It's simply not rationally possible.

>>15346335
Read this

>>15346135
wtf i want to join isis now

>>15346335
And also this

>>15346308
Christians theology did develop over centuries. Islamic by and large didn't. Different interpretation arose in Islam over centuries but the primary source material was always the same. Those same differing interpretation still exist today, they haven't become uniformed for time since the same primary texts exists.
>>15346331
The key premise of the revisionist school of Islam is that Quran was written and complied over a ~300 year period after Mohammed died. As I said carbon dating and unearthed manuscripts have obliterated this idea.

>>15346335

>>15346355
>>15346367
>>15346382
As I keep telling the other anon (you might even be him), the revisionist school of Islam has been debunked. It's just bitter orientalists and Christian apologist at this point that can't deal with the reality that unlike the dominate Western faith, Christianity, Islam has immaculate scholarship.

>i'll spam book covers
how does this prove your point?

>>15346383
>The key premise of the revisionist school of Islam is that Quran was written and complied over a ~300 year period after Mohammed died
This is not so important. The most interesting thing in their criticism is the textual analysis of borrowings from the Bible, liturgical Christian texts and Talmudic legends.

Muhammad heard about all this and that, rethought it from the point of view of Arian Christology and put it together in the Quran.

>>15346403
>>15346428

>>15346409
Perhaps you will ever want to read some of this.

For those who believe that Islam has emerged as something united and complete

>>15346021
>what if they wear transparent burkas you see the pusy haha
extremely based and

>>15346493
Also this

>>15345998
>our
Don't lump me with you. But yes, most likely Islam will be westernized by women who convert because its fashionable. If Islam was actually threat to the system it would be dealt with immediately. But also, lot of converts to early Christianity were also women, and Christianity took over Europe in the end.

>>15346428
The Qur'an intentionally presents many narratives that are known to Jews and Christians (and some not) but they're hardly plagiarized as they are told very differently and more coherently; it's meant to correct both faiths. It also includes far more than narratives, injunctions and prayers take up as much.

There I nothing Arian about it. Arianism presents Jesus as a primordial albeit created being, the Qur'an presents him as a man

>>15346505
>If Islam was actually threat to the system it would be dealt with immediately.
Are you blind? The west has been bombing repressing the bejeepers out of Muslims for decades

>>15346204
>Capitalst global competition needs men and women in the work force or society collapses
>>>/pol/

>>15346523
Why do you think that is? What threat does the Muslim world actually pose to the interests of western nations?

The Islamization of Europe is a myth. Africans and Arabs come to European cities, and cities are places where fertility is traditionally declining. Cities are genetic cemeteries. By the way, fertility in Islamic countries is also declining.

Another aspect is the departure from Islam. Check statistics for France or Britain. A negligible number of migrants go to mosques. Most of them go to mosques only once a year (Eid al-Adha). Their children will be even more indifferent to Islam. Migrants who have graduated in most cases are indifferent to Islam.

>>15346018
The feminists can do it if they get 3 holy sites and get moral authority above 40%, then it can have the Enatic Clans feature.

>>15346428
>Muhammad heard about all this and that, rethought it from the point of view of Arian Christology and put it together in the Quran.
The Christian polemics accused him of being nestorian you retard. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about

>>15346584
Read Messages to the World

>>15346649
second generation muslims are more fanatical than their parents according to studies.

the fertility stuff is true but realistically they will have enough to wield considerable democratic and sectarian power in the west for the next couple generations at least.

>>15346688
St. John of Damascus (676 - 749) writes on his Critique of Islam:

'From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised his own heresy.'

>>15346523
That's because of geopolitics and resources. What happened to Gaddafi or Saddam Hussein who escaped from their leash? Both Islamic radicals and governments are more or less in payroll of foreign powers, and when sand niggers chimpout in Europe we usually find out later that police had suspicions or hints about it in advance. They just look somewhere else because they don't want to seem racist.
>>15346747
>Osama Bin Laden
Why would you take CIA puppet seriously?

>>15346881
>it seems
so its bullshit claims and john wasn't certain, plus he was in Damascus and muslims were primarily in mecca and the surrounding areas and he wrote centuries after mohammed died. overall an ass pull.

>>15346677
kek

>>15346068
BASED

>>15346896
>Why would you take CIA puppet seriously?
Yes. I'm American and I proud it.

>>15346034
I wish you would have started with Islam which is clearly the most sexist of all the Abrahamic religions (maybe even the most sexist of all world religions)

>>15346964
>what is orthodox judaism
you haven't read about how those rabbis treat women

This thread doesn't have nearly enough discussion about inbreeding. 30-50% of Arab marriages are between first cousins. Many of the remainder between second cousins. And, you have to understand, that Arab "first cousins" are not like our first cousins. Due to generations of inbreeding, they are actually more closely related. So your dad's brother's daughter is probably also your grandfather's brother's granddaughter and your great uncle's nephew and maybe also your grandmother's cousin's granddaughter, and things like that. Measured in terms of shared homozygosity, an Arab first cousin marriage is comparable to a Western sibling marriage.

This for 1000s of years has utterly destroyed the Arab gene pool. It's why almost all of them have this dopey countenance, vague gormless NPC-like expressions, extremely repetitive personalities and senses of humour, etc. Of course a country full of inbreds will fail. Only massive eugenics can solve this.

>>15346996
'O prophet, We have made lawful for you all your wives whom you have given their dowers, and those (bondwomen) whom you own, out of the captives Allah has given to you as spoils of war, and daughters of your paternal uncle, and daughters of your paternal aunts, and daughters of your maternal uncle, and daughters of your maternal aunts'

Quran 33:50

>>15346881
Nesotrian Christianity was the Christianity present in the peninsula

>>15346080
dude never stood a chance. i feel bad for his mother more

>>15346896
>CIA puppet
Why would you take /pool/ memes seriously?

>>15346776
They're also much, much, MUCH more pathetic from what I've experienced.

>>15346367
Would love to read this but there are no copies on libgen or b-ok

>>15346034
Karl Marx supported free trade because of that

>>15346080
>>15347128
If it makes you feel better, he realized he was being brainwashed by leftism, found Jesus and flushed all his hormones

>>15346428
>This is not so important
Yes it is. It was literally biggest and the only demonstrable element of the school of thought. That's entire point why it was called the "REVISIONIST school". And what you're talking about here
>The most interesting thing in their criticism is the textual analysis of borrowings from the Bible, liturgical Christian texts and Talmudic legends.
Is easily explained within Islam. Islam never ever presents itself as a new religion. It continually and consistently highlights that it's simply a continuation of the Abrahamic tradition (which in itself is simply a continuation of a primordial religion dating all the way back to Adam and everyone between him and Abraham) and as such in similarities between it and Christianity and Judaism is not just inevitable but a default position. Anyone arguing a point like this is hilariously ignorant of the position of Islam in regards to the other Abrahamic faiths.
>Muhammad heard about all this and that
There are a number of key details and divergences within the Quranic narrative that are found in literally no Christian or Judaic texts. Scholarly it doesn't hold water that at the same time Mohammed had a vast enough knowledge of these texts to be able to pull to form try and convince Jews and Christians but at the same time interjected key difference that to this day are major points of contentions for Jews and Christians.
>rethought it from the point of view of Arian Christology
You have no idea what Arian Christology is if you think that's Islam position. Islam completely and totally rejects the idea that Jesus is the son of God. Arian Christology believes that very fundamentally and views saying otherwise as seriously blasphemous. And regardless, from an Islamic perspective it's believed that a group of Christians did exist that believed Jesus was not God and that he was not the son of God. Islam in no way has ever said that this is a new concept found for the 1st time in Islam. Islam asserts that the "original" "truth" position of Christianity was in fact these beliefs but over time they were corrupted.

Honestly you're entire post only further enhances why the revisionist school has been so BTFO. As I said before, it was already on very shaking water with it's woeful understanding of the primary texts in Islam and western back projection on to Islam and it's only saving grace was when the Quran was complied. After that was annihilated it's now been reduced to a laughing stock as you've shown here.

>>15346881
And a number of classic Muslims scholars laughed at him for that assertion since he either didn't understand what Arianism was (potentially likely as the Church repressed and vilified to the extent very few accurate non-bias sources existed) or he didn't understand what the Islamic position on Christ was.
Actually go read what Arianism says about Christ and read what Islam says about Christ. The two couldn't be more diametrically opposed. But tbf anyone making a point like this isn't worth my effort since they've shown they don't even understand one of the most basic elements of Islam.

>>15346428
You're aware that the book you're posting in pic is about exegetical narratives. It's not about primary source materials in either Judaism or Islam. You either haven't read it or if you did it seems like it went entirely over your head in a pretty funny way.

>>15346996
And to be frank, this average is much worse than the often flanderized euro nobility intermarriage. Usually they were no closer than second cousins, and the Hapsburgs were an oddity because they explicitly interbreeded more closely than other houses.

>>15346135
Now I can see why the global community united against them.

>>15346018
>reformation
>islam

choose one, heretic

>>15346034
Islam isn't a culture, it is a subverter of national heritage just like christianity and all the other judaism offshoots.

>>15346227
cringe

>>15346996
If they typed of interbreeding you're talking about had any types of conclusions making then near east civilizations such as the various mesopotamian flavors, Egyptians, Persians and even the Arab/Islamic ones would not have arose, been so dominate and been so advanced and prosperous. 1st cousin marriage was common place in all of them.

I am working on an ideology that will combine two very based things - isis's stance on women and andrea dworkin feminism

>>15348761
Yeah I agree, your inability to refute a single point made and instead seethe like an inadequate faggot is pretty cringe

>>15346996
I like how you think Pakistan=the whole Islamic world.
But what's the point to argue with your types? You think Muslim are savages first and then go and look for reasons to hate them.

>>15348854
>he talks about arabs
>MUH PAKISTAN

kek

>>15346140
this.

>>15348753
>waaahh my SOUPERIOR stronk pagan culture was conquered
You worship weakness.

>>15348897
Renaissance and enlightenment were strongly influenced by ancient greece and rome, philosophy itself was born in greece you fucking ignorant nigger. Christcucks did absolutely nothing besides reelaborating what Aristotles did.

>>15345998
Enjoy your fatwa roasties.

>>15346068
Have sex transcel.

>>15348932
Imagine unironically believing this

>>15346227
You are right regarding the quran. I think Islam actually lets itself down as a religion holding the hadiths in any real regard. It's pretty clear from the quran that it is the final book and that is all you need. Putting value in the hadiths and then criticising Jews and Christians for following edited words of God is hypocritical. Maybe someone can explain it to me, but I don't know why you wouldn't be a quranist if you actually believe the quran is the word of god.

>>15346286
How do muslims even trust Hadiths? I mean it's just something someone heard from someone who heard it from someone ... fifteen generations after the death of their prophet.
That sounds like a very unreliable thing

>>15348932
and the Greeks were influenced by the Egyptians who were influenced by the Atlantians (Celts)

>>15346227
If you actually believe that Islam will survive liberalism, the ideology that destroyed both fascism and communism as well as reformed almost every religiously conservative movement out there, then you're fucking delusional.
Even today you take a look at most muslims outside of saudi arabia and Iran, you'll see how degenerate the younger generation is getting

>>15348995
Iran is going to abandon Islam and go back to Sassanian styled theocratic monarchism.

>>15345998
Hey they destroyed the west so who knows, it'll probably fail but maybe western women will destroy Islam. I would laugh.

>>15348995
do you think Liberalism will defeat Zionism?

>>15349018
B A S E D

>>15349018
>there is no force on earth that can contend with annoying white women
What the actual fuck is modernity, is this all a joke?

>>15349060
I've had many white women hit on me in the past, but I put them all down because I value monogamy and chastity. I feel bad for white people who cannot find white virgins.

>>15349067
Im not sure what this has to do with my post

>>15349082
I apologize. Yes, modernity is a joke, but a better question is whether or not your mind is a joke? Are you an awakened and enlightened man? Probably not.

>>15349029
You're implying those are different things

>>15349138
They pretty obviously are. The closest parallels to Israel are places like Rhodesia, which Liberalism did not allow to exist. There is quite a lot of anger at Israel coming from the liberals.

>>15349199
Israel and Rhodesia, while similar in their function, have a very different foundation.
To start, Israel pretends to have at least some semblance of legitimacy of claim to the place compared to Rhodesia, and Israel's neighbors are far from being helpless colonies so in a sense you can see how their use of arguments like "self defense" aren't so far fetched when compared to Rhodesia.
And there's also the holocaust which pretty much serves as a criticism shield for Jews post-WW2, Rhodesia on the other hand was easy to dismiss as some white supremacist takeover because it had no pretense of being anything else.
Liberalism will certainly open up Israel to become a less hawkish nation in the future (and I believe that will happen once the region as a whole adopts it), but it won't erase it from the map

>>15345998
"Show me just what Mahomet brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

Repent and submit to the Pope

>>15349199
and as for the anger coming from the liberals you speak of, it's only for show, I'm sure they feel bad for Palestinians but they'll still throw in some "Israel has the right to defend itself" quote here and there, the people who want to take a radical stance are most of the time either communists who sympathize with the Palestinian cause or fascists.

>>15348975
The Quran is a complete revelation but in terms of how to actually practice the religion of Islam, it's impossible to just read the Quran and know everything. The Quran tells you to pray every day but only from knowing the Sunnah (Hadith and practices of Muhammad) you would know how exactly to pray everyday. The Quran also has a lot of esoteric readings that are explained only by Muhammad. So the Quran is more of a guide on spiritually understanding the nature of God, existence and the development of Islam. The Hadith and Sunnah show how to actually live as a Muslim, since Muhammad was supposed to be the ultimate role model.

>>15346034
>the leftist reveals his true ideology, hate of the Other and diversity

>>15349261
>>15349244
Im not sure the conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians can be solved that easily. But who knows.

>>15349279
>We did not neglect anything out of this book. (6:38)
Maybe praying everyday is only what God needed to say, why add the laws of men? I get where you are coming from though. It's just there are a lot of verses about the quran being THE book, the completion of God's message,and that it was Muhammad's job to deliver this and this only that are hard to ignore.

>>15346677
based

>>15348350
That does actually. Good on him.

>>15349367
Because prayer is a daily ritual and there's no exact instructions on how to do it in the Quran. Islam is a vast tradition and Muhammad is supposed to exemplify it, that's why it's necessary to believe in him as the final messenger and follow his example.

>>15348350
I'm sorry anon but the tranny grip was too strong and this person went back to his old habits, I don't want to link anything related but you can find more on kiwifarms.

Take care.

Why would you try to reform Islam, though. It is perfect already.

>inb4 some 1st worlder whose entire economy is propped up by hundreds of years of wars, oil, slavery, colonies and imperialism

>>15348991
Take your meds, Schizo.

>>15348890

fucking mods deleting my honest comments, kys

>>15346776
>second generation muslims
It is a remarkably similar pattern to what happens to Asian migrants, the women become massive sluts by Gen2 and odds are Gen3 is already mixed race. The men on the other hand become MOBA playing incels fuelled by resentment for a culture that doesn't place a sexual premium on them. The difference is Asian dudes are low-t so are less prone to spontaneous combustion.

>>15346018
>Qur’anism
Big yikes.

>>15350178
>biggest Muslim country in the world (Indonesia) has almost zero consanguinity along with Muslim Central Asian countries
Nice /pol/ meme

>>15346034
>until it destroys all antiquated cultures around the world
yeah because that worked so well last time

>>15350322
Anon Indonesia became Muslim like 1000 years after the Middle East did

>>15350397
I am indon anon and this statement is true. Culturally we are different because Islam was spread by Sufist from India

>>15346503
...birth-control pilled?

>>15348979
Theyre assessed by how many witnesses, unbroken line of transmission etc.

>>15346996
>30-50% of Arab marriages are between first cousins.
I live in a Muslim country. This is not even remotely true.

>>15349256
You can pull out four points out of anything though. Why Islam is correct. Why communism is correct. Why stoicism is correct.

Religion has been, and always will be, a system of control.

Also, the Qur'an is a rip off from older biblical and jewish texts.

>>15346135
>"She travels, intent upon learning Western lifestyle and sitting in the midst of another culture, to study the brain cells of crows, grains of sand and the arteries of fish!"
STEMcels btfo

>>15348505
The essence of Arianism is that Christ is a created being and (therefore) subordinate to God the Father. Above all it is a denial of the orthodox doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

You'll even notice that in the quoted comment that John of Damascus didn't say that Muhammed "was an Arian" but that he "devised his own heresy" based on Arian teaching. More generally, the idea is that Arianism inevitably leads to the sorts of beliefs that Mohammed had about Christ. Personally I think this is a rather charitable interpretation of Mo's doctrine, which was mostly about his own aggrandizement.

>>15350322
Indonesia is culturally irrelevant. It's like Argentina being "European". Yeah, it's technically true and somewhat interesting, but so what?

>>15351293
Pauline Kael didn't know anyone who voted for Nixon but he still won the election.

>>15350178
How the fuck does Pakistan have more cousin marriages than Afghanistan? Which ethnic group(s) is responsible for this?

>>15346677
But their religion must be pagan silly anon.

>>15346990
Tell me

>>15348932
>Greeks themselves admit influence of Egyptians and Phoenicians
Oh no no no

>>15346034
Tradfags will seethe

>>15349018
>hey if i'm a simp maybe everyone is a simp

>>15346068
Holy based

>>15346068
>anime poster
sounds about right

>>15349060
>is this all a joke?

>>15351608
not anon, but I've know someone in the flight industry. Staunch orthos will refuse to sit near women (can't remember if any ever refused to board planes). Also they literally cannot talk to women directly.

Honestly somewhat based, from just the statement.
The Quran describes a beautiful liberation from old thought. It should be a tome of constant renewal through the generations, when coupled with god-given rationality.
It's such a shame the religion is now dominated by regressive jurisprudence.

>>15346068
based

>>15348991
>being this much of a schizo

>As American women, many of us have an idea of what feminists are; freelancing women with all the sexual freedom in the world. But this is exactly the problem with American feminism; it is all about sex and the liberation of our bodies.

>Hip Feminist campaigns like Free the Nipple only encourage a gullible behavior of disrespect for our own bodies, leading to everyone else around us disrespecting our bodies as well. If we want to be respected as women and taken seriously in all our endeavors we should look to a new source; Muslim women. Muslim women, as well as Muslim men, see every body as a sacred temple, especially the female body. Opposed to exposing themselves, it is through modesty. When we think of modern feminists we should stray away from the new American trends and start looking to what we have always thought as a contradiction; Muslim feminists.