/lit/ - Literature

>It is difficult to sit in judgment on the revolt of the least philosophical of the angels without a tinge of sympathy, amazement, and . . . blame. Injustice governs the universe. Everything which is done and undone there bears the stamp of a filthy fragility, as if matter were the fruit of a scandal at the core of nothingness. Each being feeds on the agony of some other; the moments rush like vampires upon time’s anemia; the world is a receptacle of sobs. . . . In this slaughterhouse, to fold one’s arms or to draw one’s sword are equally vain gestures. No proud frenzy can shake space to its foundations or ennoble men’s souls. Triumphs and failures follow one another according to an unknown law named destiny, a name to which we resort when, philosophically unprovided for, our sojourn here on earth or anywhere seems insoluble to us, a kind of curse to endure, senseless and undeserved. Destiny—favorite word in the vocabulary of the vanquished. . . . Greedy for a nomenclature of the Irremediable, we seek relief in verbal invention, in lights suspended over our disasters. Words are charitable: their frail reality deceives and consoles us. . . .

>Thus “destiny,” which can will nothing, is what has willed what happens to us. . . . Infatuated with the Irrational as the sole mode of explanation, we watch it tip the scale of our fate, which weighs only negative elements. Where find the pride to provoke the forces which have so decreed, and what is more, are not to be held responsible for this decree? Against whom wage the struggle, and where lead the assault when injustice haunts the air of our lungs, the space of our thoughts, the silence and the stupor of the stars? Our revolt is as ill conceived as the world which provokes it. How take it on ourselves to right wrongs when, like Don Quixote on his deathbed, we have lost—madness at its end, exhausted—vigor and illusion to confront the highroads, combats, and defeats? And how regain the energy of that seditious angel who, still at time’s start, knew nothing of that pestilential wisdom in which our impulses asphyxiate? Where find enough verve and presumption to stigmatize the herd of the other angels, while here on earth to follow their colleague is to cast oneself still lower, while men’s injustice imitates God’s, and all rebellion sets the soul against infinity and breaks it there? The anonymous angels—huddled under their ageless wings, eternally victors and vanquished in God, numb to the deadly curiosities, dreamers parallel to the earthly griefs—who would dare to cast the first stone at them and, in defiance, divide their sleep? Revolt, the pride of downfall, takes its nobility only from its uselessness: sufferings awaken it and then abandon it; frenzy exalts it and disappointment denies it. . . . Revolt cannot have a meaning in a non-valid universe. . . .

Nietzsche
Jung
McKenna
Tolkien
Do psychedelics

>>15341981
>(In this world nothing is in its place, beginning with this world itself. We must therefore not be surprised by the spectacle of human injustice. It is equally futile to refuse or to accept the social order: we must endure its changes for the better or the worse with a despairing conformism, as we endure birth, love, the weather, and death. Decomposition presides over the laws of life: closer to our dust than inanimate objects to theirs, we succumb before them and rash upon our destiny under the gaze of the apparently indestructible stars. But they themselves will crumble in a universe which only our heart takes seriously, later expiating its lack of irony by terrible lacerations. . . .

>No one can correct God’s injustice or that of men: every action is merely a special, apparently organized case of the original Chaos. We are swept on by a whirlwind which dates back to the dawn of time; and if this whirlwind has assumed the aspect of an order, it is only the better to do away with us. . . .)
> - Cioran

>>15341989
> believe a trip can give a real ontological value and meaning to life

>>15341994
I mean going off peoples reported experience alone, yes.
I'm not going to claim aliens or interdimensional shit or anything like that.
Psychedelics allow you to look into your subconscious and discover your internal hold-ups.
If you read Jung, it'll show you the value in this. Jung himself obviously never experienced psychedelics, but he spent years delving into the unconscious through the next closest available options: mythology and dreams.

>>15341975
mysticism is still better than suicide

in the pymander it says
>the soul that lifts itself up to the good cannot turn away from it because it becomes immediately enamored of it and forgets all evils

so therefore there should be a good side of mysticism if you keep looking, i've found evola and guenon to be the best, especially "the mystery of the grail", "introduction to magic" and "the king of the world" to be a good start

>>15342069
>>15341975

>>15342026
Where should I start with Jung?

>>15341975
Doesn't it at least give you solace that you're not alone in those thoughts?

>>15342069
>mysticism is still better than suicide
More pleasant but more true? Idk
Experiences can't tell US anythin about the truth
No more than a trip

>>15342105
Yes a little bit

>>15341975
Suffering-centrism was the great error of philosophy.
The average dumb animal is a million times happier than a philosopher and a lobotomy a better recipe for happiness than any philosophy.

Just be a hedonist and use your intelligence to acquire pleasure.

It's what every normo does anyway, and you have 0 obligation to them. You should use your intelligence to give yourself pleasure and make yourself happy.

>>15342149
I cant be happy thats the problem im not a npc i need meaning and value (réal, not self-given) i need metaphysical answers

>>15342095
Honestly, memories, dream and reflections.
But if you want to just skim over him, probably the Essential Jung, though I'd say it's hard to skim over him

>>15342164
What if your metaphysical answers won't come to you until after you die? Have you considered this possibility?
You are worrying over nothing. Your life is fleeting, I'm not gonna say to just Bee Yourself like a female self help book but if you understand deep down that you have all the tools to take control of your own judgements and thoughts you can discern the meaninglessness of everything that worries you

>>15342132
i'd argue that mysticsm insn't about trips but on stories and mythology, the way you learn about it is by reading every religious tradition and comparing them with eachother to see whats best, just like manly palmer hall did.

>>15342164
>I'm not an NPC
>I need a God to tell me what to do
Whoa there...

>>15342203
Nevers said god retard

>>15342179
Thanks bro I'm starting it tomorrow

>>15342132
"mystery of the grail" by julius evola would probably be my best recommendation, other than that it would be "the secret teachings of all ages" by manly palmer hall

>>15342279
Ty anon

>>15342306

>>15342325
Ty fren :(

Up

Up

>>15341975
watch some good anime

>>15342594
Yes

>>15342095
Man and His Symbols is written to be super accessable. Definitely a good entry point.

When you desire freedom, you are also telling yourself that you are not free by desiring what you believe is outside yourself.

The more you try to escape, the stronger your prison because the act of escaping tells you that you are trapped and need to escape.

Once you know you are free and you are powerful you will be.

Nobody fucks with anyone with no more vectors of vulnerability remaining. A self fulfilling prophecy. But by that point probably happy just being an invisible Normie driving a bus

A good half of those names do not culminate I’m doomer philosophy so I question if you actually read them seriously.

>>15342770
lol ok brainlet

>>15342708
i dont want freedom
i want truth and immortality

>>15341975
consider that there is nothing wrong with wanting to not-exist. then smile and go about business as usual

>>15341975
Lao Tzu.

>>15342708
This >>15342821

>>15342708
Based and truthpilled

>>15342821
>>15342827
Recommended readings bros?

>>15342856
Lao Tzu implies the great Tao Te Ching.

Yeah you can read all this bullshit or you can just go to Church already. If you're still struggling against the truth just look at your life, look at the fruits of your ''philosophizing'' you don't know better than 2000 years of tradition man, just give in already

>>15342902
Horrible post, pseudo-fascista

>>15342902
>juste stop thinking and accept our axioms bro

>>15342902
Do you go to church?

>>15342902
0/10 bait terrible performance any educated Christian would laugh.

>>15341994
It will not on it's, but it can help you if done right.

>>15341975
Baudelaire is not about suffering

>>15341975
>Buddha
Become a Buddhist, then.

>>15342195


Which Evola book?

>>15341975
Sauna, nature, music, friendship, poetry, faith, food, vigorous exercise
Abandon philosophy and politics, it's the refuge of the spiritually bankrupt depressive, desperately struggling to organize disparate events and facts with vague, poorly gestated ideas which they cling to with desperate zeal, constructing causation and motivation after the fact, unable to cope with the true chaos and mystery of the world.

>>15341975
>How to escape from pessimistic nihilism?
Stop clinging to it. Or rather, stop clinging to the need for meaning.
Taking the claim that nothing holds meaning to its logical conclusion by applying it to itself, it turns out that "nothing holds meaning" is itself meaningless.
Clinging to nihilism as if it alone among all the world's philosophies revealed a meaningful truth about the world is paradoxical; it shows your mind is divided against itself. On the one hand you think there is no meaning in anything, on the other hand you cling to that belief because it's the only place you can think to find the meaning you can't help but crave.
The only way is to stop craving for meaning. Stop trying to find it in things and instead allow meaning to come to you. In Nietzschean terms, let go of the lion so you can become the child.

>>15344147
Ty anon... Explain more

>>15341975
unironically Guenon

>>15344147
dude, I saw a squirrel fall off a tree, the guy was panicking like crazy, started screaming,

the scream was kinda cute desu

>>15342203
That is such a 2013 leddit thing to say

>>15343909
>dude just turn off your brain and intoxicate yourself with every drug the world has to offer lmao
You're literally admitting to coping and illusioning yourself, fuck off with this drivel. The world isn't chaotic; it's a well-oiled, well-ordered machine, grinding away to no end or purpose. You're advocating for a drug addict to keep going back to the drug dealer that's keeping him enslaved as a way to fight the misery of his life.

>>15344996
kek it's hilarious you believe that

>>15341975
> How to escape from depression and pessimistic nihilism? How to escape the DOOM? How to stop being a doomer? I can't stand it anymore guyz
breathe it down big boi nothing else here

>>15344996
*Impotent screeching intensifies*

>>15341975
>Cioran
escape the doom? more like become so fucking hopeless not even death can make you happy

>>15345104
Yes it's impotent, how could it not be? We're all helpless against the horror of it, but pretending it's not horrific is no solution and only makes it perpetuate.

>>15344996
lol okay bro. we all know you are just pathetic excuse of a human being that can't adapt himself to social hierarchy of men. you can keep on dilating like you always did by resorting to political arguments and philosophical discussion as i enjoy the every fruit life has to offer while you waste your time with non sense.

>>15342902
this desu

>>15345239
You will suffer and wither away the same as everything. Even if you "win", you can't justify the success of the few being built on top of most lives being miserable and not worth living. Your personal success can't justify the entire system being broken; unless you're a sociopath, in which case you're excluded from the ethics discussion because your brain isn't even working correctly. Suffering is suffering and it's bad no matter where or whom it affects.

>>15345192
It's only horrific if you can't contend with the chaos because you have no experience with the sublime or transcendent, because you've been neglecting beauty in favor of the illusion of control.
If any solution or true understanding is ever going to come for you, it's not going to come from bothering with all the nonsense in philosophy, ideology, politics, or theory.

>>15345305
>this many words just to seethe at me
at least when i die i will have a happy grin on my face.

>>15345305
youre a faggot. lift weight.

>>15345305
Nobody has to respond to your arguments, you realize that right? Everything you're saying can and will just be ignored. This obligation to justify decisions or argue beliefs with naysayers is not shared by most wise people. You can reee about your political views all you want, it makes no difference.
I'm only engaging in this with you for fun and because it came up organically in this discussion.

>>15344731
There's not much more to explain, really. Everything I could write on it would just be a rephrasing of the same basic idea: if you want to really live, you need to trust yourself and trust the world.
If you want someone who goes further into it, check out just about anything by Alan Watts.

>>15345312
Beauty doesn't justify children dying of cancer, or being raped and tortured, or being eaten alive, or burning alive, etc.
There's no "solution" except for brainless copes, as you've been demonstrating. True understanding is simple and a matter of facing things squarely, without selfishly ignoring the reality of it to feel good.
>>15345327
>>15345348
Keep being braindead selfish fucking retards. You're nothing but scum selling your children to the devil for a little comfort.

>>15345382
what children?

>>15345382
It doesn't have to. Beauty has to justify nothing. You don't get it.

>>15345417
Great argument, fucking retard. The real world is still real, still grinding the meat. Keep looking away scumfuck

>>15345437
kek you so mad

>>15345445
The world is a machine built for torturing children and people will not acknowledge it despite being able to, because they want to feel nice. Yeah, I'm pretty fucking mad.

>>15345437
The meat grinder is also beautiful

>>15341975
You forgot David Pearce. Suffering is ultimately caused by the brain being a product of Darwinian biological evolution instead of intelligent design.

>>15345482
You're a psychopath.

>>15345503
And you're delusional, the world wasn't "built" to torture children or anyone else

>>15345471
>The world is a machine built for torturing children
Wrong

>>15345522
It's what it does. Are you living in some fantasy world in your head? Please take a look at what life is like in the wild, or look at history, or the news, or anything. There's ample evidence for the kinds of agony that would make you wish for death if you're fortunate enough to not have experienced them yourself.
>>15345559
>just keep looking at the good stuff! hahaha look at the pretty shapes and colors!
Fuck those assholes being impaled or eaten alive, right? That's not amusing for you to look at.

The Mechanism:
Already dissatisfied anon looks for justification of his condition in cope philosophies
The Result:
Further sinking into despair with a hint of perverted enjoyment and superiority

>>15345681
You also aren't being impaled or eaten alive, and given that you're posting here I'd assume that your life has been one of relative comfort. You dumb miserable fuckers always talk about life in "the wild," without realizing that it is mostly boring, and that most organisms do not reach the extremes of suffering that would make one wish for death

>>15346368
So what? Is it agreeable for even one to live a life of horror so that a few at the top can live only somewhat miserable lives, which will be just as pointless? To me all of it is not worth even a single child being drugged, raped and tortured to death by its methhead parents. I do not consent to this fucking garbage. And there's absolutely no way to justify having children – bringing more consciousnesses into this world and making a gamble in their place on whether or not they live miserably and die in agony.

>The Münchhausen Trilemma
Nigga got blackpilled by high school level logic.

>Khayyam
the rubaiyat isn't doomer lit tho, have you actually read it

>>15346517
Childbearing is selfish. Parents want someone to take care of them.

>>15346517
If you're this concerned with the injustice of the world, it sounds like what you need to is to find a way to meaningfully fight against it. Find somewhere to volunteer or work hard so that you can donate money to good causes. If the great evils and injustices in the world are really that painful to you and you find it unpalatable to turn inward and follow the example of the stoic, then you ought to be turning outward and making your brief time in this world a force for good. The problems of the world are indeed overwhelming, but that's just indicative of how much work there is to be done. You can be one of the ones doing that work.

>>15346697
Do you know any volunteer departments with a nuclear arsenal? There's no fixing anything, nature itself is fundamentally broken. Even mass suicide isn't really a solution because life (and thus suffering) will keep existing somewhere else. I do try to do good things when I can, but to imagine that this nonsense could possibly ever be fixed in any meaningful way is just retarded and naive.

>>15341975
>Guénon (ﷺ)
How so?

>>15347480
I'm not suggesting that you can fix these problems, just that you can add your grain of sand to the mound of goodness in human history. Again, I realize the problems are overwhelming, but which reaction makes more sense: throwing up our hands and sighing or contributing to a minor reduction in the overall misery of men? Presumably literature is something that matters to you, you could go volunteer to read to children or help illiterate adults learn to read. I know these won't untangle the deepest knots of human misery, but if you burden yourself with some sort of savior complex, misery is inevitable. You just have to contribute to making things better, do your best, and try to not to let that which is out of your hands reduce you to despair.

>>15342594
I am watching Paranoia Agent and Serial Experiments Lain, what else should I watch?

>>15347676
Kaiji

>>15341975
Escaping the "doom" is just coping, there is no way to escape the "doom" only subdue it

>>15341975
If you really read Cioran anon you would understand suicide is silly.

>>15341975
>The Münchhausen Trilemma

Your other bullshit aside, this is a Pyrrhonian mode of aporia that is supposed to relieve you of your anxiety, not produce it. Once you recognize the equipollence of opposing propositions, all that is left to do is suspend judgement, which should produce tranquility all on its own. Just know what you don't (and can't) know and you will be infinitely wiser than anyone else who would dogmatically assert otherwise.

>>15347676
cowboy bebop

>>15346560
>the rubaiyat isn't doomer lit tho
Imagine believing that lol

I quote:
> My birth did not bring any benefit to the universe. My death will not diminish its vastness or splendor. No one has ever been able to explain to me why I came, why I will leave.

>>15347511
I am a former Guenonian
I no longer agree with some of his substantialist metaphysics and his vedantic views of the self.
But he remains relevant in his criticism of the modern world and its inevitable evolution.
On the reign of quantity and the signs of the times.
That's how he continues to contribute to my doom.

>>15347703
Yeah...

>>15347783
Well, that's fucked up. Realizing I can't know anything causes me metaphysical anxiety more than anything else. Nothing makes sense and I'm gonna die, great.

>>15348134
>Well, that's fucked up. Realizing I can't know anything causes me metaphysical anxiety more than anything else. Nothing makes sense and I'm gonna die, great.

You're looking at it all wrong. What's causing you anxiety is your belief that true assertions can be made about any of these questions, or that there is a nature that the answer to these questions unveils. You don't "understand" anything both in the sense that you literally did not understand the point of the trilemma if this other stuff bothers you, and also in the systemic sense that these questions should have already struck you as undecidable. So unless you're the complete fraud I think you are, it's time to live adoxastos. Belieflessly.

>>15348265
Explain pls

>>15348134
>Realizing I can't know anything
Not him but what the trilemma means isn't that you can't know anything. If we can't know anything then we also can't know whether or not we can know anything.
No, what the trilemma reveals is simply that knowledge is ultimately grounded in something other than logic. To take this as meaning that we can't know anything is to mistake logical grounding for knowledge.

>>15348285
I thought it was clear that my sentence meant that I can't know anything (absolutely).
The trilemma is that all knowledge is relative and conditioned.
What is relatively true is absolutely false

>>15348285
>>15348300
>>15348284
From what I can see, the trilemma seems to be saying not that all knowledge is relative, but rather that one cannot make a true judgement about anything, before listing the logical externalities which would preclude us from assessing the truth value of a given proposition. These are all lifted from Sextus Empiricus's description of the Pyrrhonian modes of epoche (although the trilemma in Albert's formulation does not completely exhaust them) which would lead one to suspend judgment on matters concerning the nature of things. So yes, we can't know whether or not we can or can't know anything. And we can't know that either. That's the point. At this juncture, you should recognize the proper course of action is to suspend judgment and live without belief (dogma).

nishitani keiji

>>15348605
I can know, because I have the capacity to perceive the correct axioms directly.

>>15341989
This.
Psychedelics can permanently alter your worldview, for better or worse

the best things in life are free. learn to see. stop trying to sort things if its not necessary. while you enjoy that look Inside. there are a lot of things we cannot explain. do that, hack your mind, body. even if you almost die and not understang a thing about life, at least you not give up. people give up and die when their body still function. wisdom 101

>>15345482
Lmao literal psychosis, life is a Bull of Phalaris, a torture chamber that converts agony into brunch and saunas for insectoid faggots like you

>>15345382
Preach it brother. Fuck these redditors.

>>15348300
Again, the trilemma doesn't prove that you can't know anything absolutely–if it did then it would end up proving itself wrong.
It also doesn't prove that logic can't lead to knowledge, because to do so would show that the opposite is true.
While these claims may well be true, to believe that they *are* true is self-contradictory, thus our only real option is to live as if they weren't true.
The only thing that the trilemma does prove is that logic alone cannot ground knowledge–for that you need something that can ground other things while needing no grounding itself, and that something is what you might call "faith". Not faith in God, necessarily, but faith in your own capacity to know things.
You cannot know that you know what you know, for that invites an infinite regress. You can only trust yourself to know what you know.

>>15347676
>Paranoia Agent and Serial Experiments Lain

>>15345327
Lmao, even joy is just another way to secure your place in a hierarchy, you're just as crabby and spiteful a cunt as those miserable boors you think you're stepping over.

>>15341975
What doom? There's no doom in life.

>>15341975

>>15345312
>you've been neglecting beauty in favor of the illusion of control
secretly the most based sentiment in this thread and it went unappreciated

>>15349355
Whoa, bacon, star wars, AND video games? I repent, I repent! I say with God: it is good!

faggot

Your depression is also fake. Stop being a sense-chaser.

>>15342132
>Experiences can't tell US anythin about the truth
Your depression, blackpill, whatever, doesn't tell you anything about the truth either, so discard it.

>>15342186
Don't worry, be happy, is the pinnacle of wisdom.

>>15349412
No it isn't lmao, it's a million little faggots like you, not worrying and "being happy", that oil this machine up again and again for another round. Don't worry, be happy, with an archon's cock up your ass.

>>15341975
>If you want a safe compass to guide you through life, and to banish all doubt as to the right way of looking at it, you cannot do better than accustom yourself to regard this world as a penitentiary, a sort of a penal colony, or [Greek: ergastaerion] as the earliest philosopher called it.[7] Amongst the Christian Fathers, Origen, with praiseworthy courage, took this view,[8] which is further justified by certain objective theories of life. I refer, not to my own philosophy alone, but to the wisdom of all ages, as expressed in Brahmanism and Buddhism, and in the sayings of Greek philosophers like Empedocles and Pythagoras; as also by Cicero, in his remark that the wise men of old used to teach that we come into this world to pay the penalty of crime committed in another state of existence--a doctrine which formed part of the initiation into the mysteries.[9] And Vanini--whom his contemporaries burned, finding that an easier task than to confute him--puts the same thing in a very forcible way. Man, he says, is so full of every kind of misery that, were it not repugnant to the Christian religion, I should venture to affirm that if evil spirits exist at all, they have posed into human form and are now atoning for their crimes.[10] And true Christianity--using the word in its right sense--also regards our existence as the consequence of sin and error.

>If you accustom yourself to this view of life you will regulate your expectations accordingly, and cease to look upon all its disagreeable incidents, great and small, its sufferings, its worries, its misery, as anything unusual or irregular; nay, you will find that everything is as it should be, in a world where each of us pays the penalty of existence in his own peculiar way. Amongst the evils of a penal colony is the society of those who form it; and if the reader is worthy of better company, he will need no words from me to remind him of what he has to put up with at present. If he has a soul above the common, or if he is a man of genius, he will occasionally feel like some noble prisoner of state, condemned to work in the galleys with common criminals; and he will follow his example and try to isolate himself.

Just pay your penitence then die
There is no escape

>>15347676
Welcome to the NHK, FLCL, and Cowboy bebop.

>>15349446
How does Schopoenhauer get more based as I get older?

>>15349434
Archons are just Grofian BPM III hallucinations.

>>15349446
Why is this guy famous? He can't see past delusions the Indians saw through thousands of years ago.

Philosophers are people who bought into their own copes and had egos big enough to feel that everyone else should believe them too

>>15341975
to escape the doom you need emerson, whitman, and thoreau

>>15341975
also this chart is no slouch

>>15343111
only by livestream as of the last two months. Not gonna lie, it sucks.

>>15345312
>you've been neglecting beauty in favor of the illusion of control
How do I not neglect beauty? Tell me now.

>>15347676
Monster
Ghost in the Shell
Akira
Perfect Blue
Evangelion
Girls' Last Tour

>>15349466
Ages like a wine

>>15347676
Mawaru Penguindrum, Shinsekai Yori, Ping Pong the Animation, Utena.

>>15347676
Watch other Satoshi Kon works.

>>15349434
The post that annihilated and blackpilled /lit/

>>15341975
become present to the moment anon, and perhaps you may find the peace that surpasses understanding.

>>15347676
Shin Sekai Yori

>>15348680
An axiom can and can not be correct. It is an assumption without proof.

>>15349524
Name one example of this

>>15347480
Holy fucking shit, are you literally me? Everything you've written in this thread is 1000% relatable. I even started to wonder when I was younger about how to realistically go about starting a nuclear apocalypse. I have spent the last few years coping with intoxicants and prayer and random voluntary projects, but whenever I spend a moment looking inside my heart, the dread of existence comes back and overpowers me. I am repulsed by everything in the world. Existence is a prison, but the door is FUCKING OPEN, and the worst part is, I unironically believe in God, so even if I try to leave the cell, I will only get a beating and be put back in it again. It's not fair to give a monkey just a taste of consciousness and agency. I wish for the complete and eternal death of every living thing, in this world, and in any other possible world.

>>15341975
Have you tried not being a faggot? Honestly doomposters are fucking retarded. You are either so worthless that you have no ambition or you lying to yourself. Try and be sincere in everything you do and don't lie to yourself about who you are or what you want. It's that fucking easy. Then wow, suddenly life has a purpose. If you're incapable of these 2 most basic steps then you really should just kill yourself OP

>>15352689
but i don't really want anything

>>15350332
for experience and thought:
nature > music > poetry > visual art > fiction >>>>>>> theory = politics > philosophy > ideology

Just go see a therapist jesus christ. Books aren't going to save you. Guided introspection and support, however, can.

>>15353226
>just consoom the happy pills, goy, and pay for them too!
>spiritual wellness is for sale, and it don't come cheap!

>>15341975
>How to stop being a doomer?

Grow up and stop whining

The world doesn't revolve around you bitch

>>15353238
If your therapist immediately goes for pills, get a different one. I've never had one that's done this. I was basically begging my second therapist to prescribe me anti-anxiety meds and he refused every time.
>Spiritual wellness
Didn't realize coming to grips with yourself was spiritual. Fuck off.

>>15353259
i have recently started going to the therapist for the first time, because i kinda lost control this winter and went on benders. ive had a light suicidal depression since childhood, and held it under control mostly. after talking with the therapist for an hour or two, she's considering getting me medicated. i don't really know if i should do it or not, because while i hate existence, and am only holding off on suicide because of fear of divine judgement, i still fear that medication might change my mental state to be worse, and push me over the edge. i have a fundamental distrust and dislike for profession of mental health

>>15353284
the rhetoric around psychiatric meds is way more extreme than the actual effects of psychiatric meds.
A psychiatrist will prescribe something if they think you need it. You'd need it if the psychiatric issue was becoming a problem larger than the downsides of whatever med- ie, risk of suicide or depressive life ruination (failing to show up to job or acting like a shit to a loved one) is worse than the possibility of weight gain and difficulty reaching orgasm of an SSRI

>>15341975
>But an experience, as mystical as it is, as certain as I am when I live it, remains an appearance that tells us nothing about the being-in-itself, no more than a trip on LSD.
why do you just assume this to be true? You do remember that Guénon BTFO Kant right?

>>15353284
Black box reactions (suicide ideation) to SSRIs are rare.
You really ought to remember that regardless of whatever she recommends, you're completely free to accept or deny it. You are not being forced to take drugs.
It would be highly productive to discuss these worries and your dislike of medications and the profession with your therapist, irregardless of whether or not you end up taking the medication. As awkward or painful as it might seem, it will open up new avenues of conversation and mutual trust between the two of you, which is pretty crucial to the whole experience.

But I completely understand your hesitance. My third therapist wanted to prescribe me drugs, but at this point I was also totally opposed and afraid of them. We talked about it, and he never brought it up again, but the experience really helped my therapy in the long run. The whole point is to become totally honest with this person, and that necessarily includes the practice itself.

>>15353297
This man is complete correct

>>15341994
>real

reality is a hoax

>>15341975
Hi OP, you're likely not gonna read this, but I used to be a doomer, I understand or at least have some understanding of what your'e going through. The way to stop being a doomer and escape the doom, is actually more simple than you think.

Firstly, you can never escape depression (mental illness) and suicide isn't an escape from your doomerism. You need to realise that you are nothing, and be fine with it. Only then can you escape the "doom".

Once you understand that you are nothing, find meaning within that nothingness, that "doom" and embrace it, because only you can bring meaning and value to your life.

I'm sorry if this isn't written well, i'm pretty scatterbrained and trying to up my thoughts to words is kinda difficult.

>>15344147
Based, I realized after awhile that all this pseudo-posturing I had prior was just because I finally became self aware enough to understand that life has no meaning. It really took a toll on me and I became deeply depressed for a good year until it also dawned on me that I could literally just exist without any repercussion. So now I spend my days trying to educate myself on the smaller things of this world and just enjoy the time I have on this planet. Just enjoy the human experience honestly

>>15353463
>suicide isn't an escape from your doomerism. You need to realise that you are nothing, and be fine with it. Only then can you escape the "doom"
>t.demiurge

books can provide comfort, but they can't save you. only you can save yourself.

It's good to stop surrounding yourself with needless depressing shit, doom and gloom. At a certain point you have to realize that you're using needlessly dark art to just justify and reinforce your own internal sadness; it's grim masturbation for a lot of people on here. Once it stops being enlightening, comforting or interesting, and starts to become a crutch, it's a sign to move onto something else.

>>15353485
>demiurge
I'd say it's more absurdist than gnostic/Platonic, OP needs to embrace the nothingness of existence, only then can he escape the "doom".

>>15353509
why is thousand plateaus life affirming?

>>15353596
probably something to do with BWO or philosophy as a tool-box. philosophy as play, maybe? I haven't read it.

>>15353611
Ikiru was very bittersweet movie.

>>15353528
>OP needs to embrace the nothingness of existence, only then can he escape the "doom".
OP needs to embrace the wetness of fire, only then can he escape the "doom"

>>15353630
It's so heartwarming and heartbreaking. That scene where he's watching the playground start being built, and there's this long shot of his smile, just the most genuine smile you ever saw. That's when I just started breaking down sobbing

>>15353668
edgy bopi

>>15353630
>“Gotta have opposites, light and dark and dark and light, in painting. It’s like in life. Gotta have a little sadness once in awhile so you know when the good times come. I'm waiting on the good times now.”

>>15353668
lmao btfo

I'm completely convinced that every nietzchean retard denying the slaughterhouse nature of existence is a privileged suburban white kid who have never experienced true suffering in their entire lives

>>15354106
This is just
>Muh privilege
from a different angle. Not everyone is as emotionally fragile as you.

>>15354116
>emotionally fragile
proves how egocentric and blind you have to be to be happy in this life
>muh privilege
you're probably taking this similar to the American liberal political sentiment, but its not. Its a privilege for you to be born in a first world country, to stable nurturing parents, to a stable economy, to be brought up in a community with an illusion of meaning and cohesion and not the rest of the world where you're too busy getting pounded by the cocks of your authoritarian government, famine, or invaders bombing you to think about the sublime sanctity of life.

>>15341975
How about a way to escape the COOM?!?!?!? Even more addictive than drugs is porn & food. McDonald’s big breakfasts large iced coffees with extra hazelnut & cum galore pornhub splattered on a keyboard and you wipe it off a screen and reach for another delicious French fry that animal fat that deliciousness that large icy Coca Cola that mmmmmmm MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM double cheeseburger quarter pounder ice cream cones McFlurry Wendy’s baconater triple double cheeseburger grand slam with extra cheese large root beer large pepperoni pa pa Jon’s dipped in that succulent garlic sauce fucking cheap Mexican MILF hooker cleaning ladies in the ass blowjobs rim jobs tit jobs hand jobs all sorts of jobs greasy fry jobs 3 double cheeseburgers a mcchicken spicy Mc chicken French fry hot pockets bbq that sauce that grease greasy delicious mmmmmmm McDonald’s French fries large eaten in one bite, swishing around the grease dominos chicken wings large supreme pizza extra cheese paramsean then another blowjob from crackhead Korean MILF hooker lady

>>15354174
>its a privilege for you to be born in a first world country, to stable nurturing parents, to a stable economy, to be brought up in a community with an illusion of meaning and cohesion and not the rest of the world
This is not true, being raised by stable parents in a stable community etc is the norm in most countries, you are exaggerating how bad it is to be born outside of the west. The non-western countries with famine, civil-war, economies in free fall etc are the exception rather than the rule. And as neoliberalism has hollowed out western economies the conditions of working have become less disparate between first world and developing countries as large percentages of the first world population also now spends all their time working just to stay alive with little that they are able to save or make progress in. In any case spirituality/religion are available to almost everyone in every country and are capable of providing happiness and fulfillment in people's lives regardless of material conditions. So, I would dispute your assertion that existence is a slaughterhouse both on the point that you are exaggerating how bad it and also on the point that there is an obvious and accessible source which allows countless people to spend their existence happily fulfilled.

>>15353463
this guy gets it
we are nothings
stop giving yourself over importance, you are nothing, you are irrelevant, the Universe doesn't care about your wishes, feelings or even your existence, a random cosmic fart could erase all life on this planet just by chance

>>15354895
Finally, someone gets my ramblings

>>15353325
Where

>>15347676
Spirited away

I used to be happy when the quarantine started. So much more free time, so much to do! But now? I've retreated too far from the real world. I've escaped into the timeless abyss of dreams. I float, bodyless, in an ocean deep of fantasies. I can't wake up. How long has it been? All the days seem the same now. Help me recollect, help me to fight this insidious malaise!

>>15355302
don't worry kind anon you are just disoriented
soon the mundane life will triumph and once again you will be a cog in the machine
cherish it

>>15355302
Of course you've retreated from the world, you finally have time, and you're mind is starting to understand the illuision that is time. You more than likely had some sort of a routine, without that your mind doesn't know what to do, so make a routine and follow it as best you can, and make sure that you change it every now and then.

>>15355302
Of course you've retreated from the world, you finally have free time, and you're mind is starting to understand the illusion that is time. You more than likely had some sort of a routine, without that your mind doesn't know what to do, so make a routine and follow it as best you can, and make sure that you change it every now and then.

*had to make a change to the previous post

>>15350118
>>15353509
i feel like d&g could be bloomer or doomer depending on the reading

>>15353611
wings of desire is a beautiful movie & incredibly underrated.

>>15355627
>d&g
dolce n gabbana?

>>15355659
yes, the guys who wrote Cardigans & Schizophrenia

>>15347676
Aria the animation, it will teach you indirectly how to see the world positively and poetically

>>15354445
>being raised by stable parents in a stable community etc is the norm in most countries
stable NURTURING parents. the amount of things that childhoods contribute to the growth of a person is immense, and most parents shouldn't be parents at all. most cultures have authoritarian ways of parenting and unless the child is a conformist to the culture, they suffer immensely both in their upbringing and adulthood.
>The non-western countries with famine, civil-war, economies in free fall etc are the exception rather than the rule.
shit economies dont just mean failing economies. economies could be stable but be barely able to provide material for both biological and emotional sustenance
>In any case spirituality/religion are available to almost everyone in every country and are capable of providing happiness and fulfillment in people's lives regardless of material conditions
the whole thread here is about nihilism, which obviously disputes said religions. it is obvious that the majority of the world goes through obviously poor and turbulent conditions with theirs hopes and gods. The thread is about pessimistic nihilism that says that once you remove those delusions, you get to the truth and hell of existence.

what philosophers do girls like so i can get some high iq pussy?

>>15355659
>>15356329
Kekk

I struggle with collapsing into nihilism a lot, and something that has helped me is thinking about nietzche's idea of affirming life is that it's not something like a switch, or an on/off relationship, it's a kind of a process. You continually affirm life, not as a purely internal operation, but through actions within the world that reflect your perspective on life. Any act can be life-affirming, but the most life-affirming act is, in my view, the creation of art. Life denial is all about setting limitations to what something can do--limiting in in the name of a transcedent god, as with Augustine, limiting in the name of a transcedent principle, as with Kant, limiting in the name of a kind of transcedent pathos, as with Pessimists--while the creation of art is all about redefining limits, it is the creative redefinition of limits. There is a violent, chaotic life within you and once you recognize that, the day to day becomes less about maintaining a particular representation about the world, and more about finding ways to direct that force.

>>15347676
Yamato
LoGH
Gundam and Zeta
Anything Ghibli

>>15354106
Nailed it, thank you. anhedonic kids romanticizing death and violence

>>15354178
Beautiful, I coomed

>>15354445
>I would dispute your assertion that existence is a slaughterhouse

Lmao you and everyone you know can't go a few days without becoming ravenously hungry. Life is eternal deficiency

>>15356365
Recognizing the pain and suffering of life and condemning the world for it isn't nihilism, quite the opposite. It would be nihilism if you said that it doesn't matter either way whether creatures suffer, including your own suffering -- which is something I don't think anyone is even capable of believing, unless they've never suffered

>>15354895
And the observable universe is in a universe, and the universe is in a multiverse, and the multiverse is in a realm of possible worlds, and the possible worlds is in a realm of possible and impossible worlds: in an unbounded telesy. Endless is the world, meaningless the individual contribution: everything will fade to nothingness, just see this for yourself.

>>15355654
>Underrated
It won the Palme D'or

>>15356591
> it doesn't matter either way whether creatures suffer, including your own suffering

Multiple religions have been built on this.

>>15351732
You are so bluepilled yet you think you're so wise.

>>15351864
This is what Krishna would say to Schopy:

Thou grievest where no grief should be! thou speak'st
Words lacking wisdom! for the wise in heart
Mourn not for those that live, nor those that die.
Nor I, nor thou, nor any one of these,
Ever was not, nor ever will not be,
For ever and for ever afterwards.
All, that doth live, lives always! To man's frame
As there come infancy and youth and age,
So come there raisings-up and layings-down
Of other and of other life-abodes,
Which the wise know, and fear not. This that irks —
Thy sense-life, thrilling to the elements —
Bringing thee heat and cold, sorrows and joys,
'Tis brief and mutable! Bear with it, Prince!
As the wise bear. The soul which is not moved,
The soul that with a strong and constant calm
Takes sorrow and takes joy indifferently,
Lives in the life undying! That which is
Can never cease to be; that which is not
Will not exist. To see this truth of both
Is theirs who part essence from accident,
Substance from shadow. Indestructible,
Learn thou! the Life is, spreading life through all;
It cannot anywhere, by any means,
Be anywise diminished, stayed, or changed.
But for these fleeting frames which it informs
With spirit deathless, endless, infinite,
They perish.

Yet Schopes read the Gita. Guess he heard what he wanted to hear, like all depressives.

>>15341975

JOHN 3:16

>>15342164
>im not a npc
>i need meaning and value (réal, not self-given)
>réal, not self-given
>not a npc
>not self-given
Noticing anything, OP?

>>15356727
>the REAL (You) doesn't care about all this, trust me bro
Great. The avatar of the all-knowing God doesn't understand that that's meaningless to my current perspective, besides being impossible to verify? What kind of comfort is it anyway to say that this suffering which is very real to me is actually meaningless and I'm not even real? Useless drivel and advanced coping.

>>15356923
Your suffering is a hallucination. If you would realize what it is you call suffering, you would instantly be detached from it. Ask yourself, how do I know I am suffering?

>>15357002
Because I can feel the pain, you fucking retard.

>>15356591
its nihilism because it rejects the coping mechanisms and belief systems that have been established to combat the suffering, sorry.

>>15357007
How do you know you feel pain?

>>15357351
Let me strap you down and torture you until you can't squirm or scream anymore and then ask you that question.

>>15357383
Even if I were being tortured, I would be able to pinpoint exactly what it is I am labeling pain. How do you know you feel pain right now?

>>15357469
>I would be able to pinpoint exactly what it is I am labeling pain
So?

>>15357510
Once pinpointed you would be able to detach from it. Let it play out without it affecting you.

>>15357581
You can play mind games with yourself and learn tricks to control your reactions but that doesn't make the experience of pain any less negative. Even if it did, what does it matter to the vast majority of human beings who couldn't or didn't learn it, or all of the animal life that's suffering? You retarded fucking clown piece of shit. This is so fucking stupid it makes me go limp, it's just fucking gibberish. Even if everything is a hallucination, that doesn't make the experience any less real and painful.

>>15354106
>crying about white privilege on 4chan
wow, we've come a long way

>>15345382
>There's no "solution" except for brainless copes, as you've been demonstrating.
If reality is miserable, and realizing this adds absolutely nothing of value to your life, and you propose absolutely no alternative to people's "coping mechanisms", how can you possibly justify your contempt for those coping mechanisms? Sounds like you just want people to be as miserable as you. If you truly gave even the slightest shit about anyone but yourself, you would allow people whatever small comforts they can get, no matter how "illusory" they are.

>>15342821
Fuck the Tao. Lao was a fucking doormat.

Just be a meek rock your entire life. Fuck off

>>15357761
Those coping mechanisms directly implicate the suffering in question.

>>15357665
*blocks your path*

>>15357839
So realizing that existence is miserable makes you suffer less than you would if you thought it was wonderful?
That's completely ass-backwards.

>>15357665
You can learn to see past hallucinations. In fact, it is by labeling certain sensations 'pain' that you end up being stuck in mindgames, for words are quite removed from reality, reality being what I am attempting to get you to directly engage with, to traverse the territory, instead of looking at a map of it, and loathing it.

> other humans, animals

Useless to think of them until you take the beam out of your eye.

>>15357761
If you stay conscious of it then you can at least lessen the suffering by not being an asshole and not creating more suffer pigs for the world to experiment on. By allowing any illusions you risk becoming illusioned to the point of thinking that having children is something excusable or even commendable.

>>15357867
No, one said that.

>>15357850
Yes, you can spent a lifetime learning to control your reactions, this is what I've addressed. The monk didn't modify his nerves to not send pain signals to his brain.
>>15357870
How have you verified that the world is a hallucination, first of all? You're making the word hallucination meaningless in this context because this world is the only reality we know.
>by labeling certain sensations 'pain'
The "label" doesn't matter, it's just a way to communicate what sensation we're talking about, the sensation that's obviously fucking unpleasant. It's not painful just because that's the way you think about it, the pain comes first. Please let me stick some needles in your eyes and testicles and we'll see for how long you can keep repeating this fucking gibberish.
>reality being what I am attempting to get you to directly engage with
Pain is the most direct and undeniable reality right after your own consciousness. You're the one elevating your map to some divine status by claiming it's more real than what's obviously real and right in front of you and inside you.
>Useless to think of them until you take the beam out of your eye.
You're not only an idiot but a selfish scumbag as well, then. Just ignore everything and everyone else and focus on mindfucking yourself into being a sociopath detached from everything, that's all you're advocating for. Fuck you.

>>15341975
You can start by following Cioran's example and lead a mostly joyful and nonchalant life despite having pessimistic, sceptical views jsut about everything.
Amonst other based facts, the dude started biking Frances' countryside as soon as the scholarship of the thesis he never really worked on got renewed; maybe buy a bike?

>>15357884
Oh, so you're just a run-of-the-mill antinatalist. Good to know.
Antinatalism is completely retarded. It bases its entire argument on the antinatalist's feeling that life is miserable while rejecting the validity of anyone else's feelings on the matter, as if there's an objectively correct way to feel about life. It's completely illogical and yet the self-deluded jackasses who peddle it around still push it as some undeniable truth.

>>15358035
r/childfree type antinatalists are pretty insufferable, but I've yet to see anyone on this board actually make a decent argument against antinatalism a la Schopenhauer or Zapffe. It's more than just personal depression.

>>15358035
The simplest and most important thing is that you simply don't have the right to gamble with someone else's well-being. Given that you know the possibilities of agony (chance doesn't matter, even if you're rich and living in a safe place you can't guarantee anything) and how miserable some people's lives are, you'd have to be either a sociopath or a deluded moron to think that you have any right to sign someone else up for this with no way of getting consent.

>>15358073
>a la Schopenhauer or Zapffe
What are their arguments for it, or where can I find them?

>>15358091
Props to you for advancing the only argument for antinatalism that isn't immediately self-refuting and doesn't imply that you should kill yourself.
Still, the argument rests on an assumed value system (e.g. suffering is inherently bad) and metaphysics (e.g. no one enters willingly into the world) which need to be argued for first.

>>15358271
Suffering is, and that's all it needs to be.

>>15358035
If you think antinatalists can't speak for you, what makes you think you can speak for them? Who are you to say suffering exists to advance your shonen arc?

>>15358092
>One simple test of the claim that the pleasure in the world outweighs the pain…is to compare the feelings of an animal that is devouring another with those of the animal being devoured

>>15358271
No reasonable person would argue that suffering isn't bad, it's where the concept of bad comes from; we don't have to prove it as an absolute truth, everyone in the world agreeing on the experience being bad is enough. Obviously there's no way to prove that we don't enter here willingly, but there's no reason to believe that we do – as far as we know consciousness begins here and that's what we have to work with.

>>15358325
>Suffering is, and that's all it needs to be.
ok
>If you think antinatalists can't speak for you, what makes you think you can speak for them?
I didn't.
>>15358345
That's just the usual argument that the suffering in the world outweighs the pleasure.
>>15358347
>No reasonable person would argue that suffering isn't bad
Ad hominem. Lots of arguments for that have been advanced.
>Obviously there's no way to prove that we don't enter here willingly, but there's no reason to believe that we do
Did your cells not multiply in your mother's womb of their own accord? Does a seed not grow into a tree through its own efforts?
All living beings are born in large part through their own efforts, as a manifestation of their own inherent will to life. Our parents merely enable us, they do not force us.

>>15358441
Stop pushing this flowery reddit nonsense please. A guy torturing a dog in his shed does not advance the moral purpose of the universe.

>>15358092
Thomas Ligotti's The Conspiracy Against the Human Race is probably the unofficial introduction to philosophical pessimism.
Ignore >>15358345. Schopenhauer's philosophy is more than just "life bad."

>>15341989
Repent

>>15358477
Ok but what about Schopenhauer and Zapffe? What do you recommend from them?

>>15358441
I'm not my fucking cells, moron. Under no circumstance can you describe them as doing anything "of their own accord", they don't have any agency. Most of life is involuntary and most of the world is deterministic, only human consciousness can be argued to rise above it some of the time. Let's drop the retarded "you have to prove the axiom" shit too, axioms by their nature aren't something to be proven, and you don't get to ask for proof of absolute truth after asserting that there can be no absolute truth. Suffering being bad is an obvious, reasonable, directly experienced axiom everyone agrees on (they just don't know how to extrapolate it to its logical conclusion), if you don't accept it then you make yourself my enemy and an enemy of all of humanity; that's all there is to it.

>>15358573
Based department, I have an urgent case

>>15358467
>flowery reddit nonsense
Anon, Reddit is chock-full of antinatalists. If I'm reddit then you're doubly so.
>>15358573
>I'm not my fucking cells, moron.
So you're a dualist?
>you don't get to ask for proof of absolute truth after asserting that there can be no absolute truth.
I don't recall saying that absolute truth doesn't exist. Regardless, my objective in asking for proof of your axioms is to get you to admit that you can't provide any so you''ll stop acting like what you're arguing for is the undisputed truth.
>Suffering being bad is an obvious, reasonable, directly experienced axiom everyone agrees on
No, not everyone agrees on it, and something being universally accepted doesn't make it true.
> if you don't accept it then you make yourself my enemy and an enemy of all of humanity
How melodramatic.

>>15344996
I feel that humans are more simple than we like to sometimes think. Yes the brain in infinitely complex but we are also made of flesh and subject to moods that are influenced by bodily condition. Exercise, good nutrition and friendship for example are all maintenance for the body we inhabit and are all likely if not guaranteed to improve quality of life

>>15341981
>>15341992

Beautiful, where is this from ?

>>15358653
>So you're a dualist?
I'm a consciousness in a vehicle made up of cells, I'm not the fucking cells and I didn't grow myself in my mother's womb, the cells grew mechanically.
>so you''ll stop acting like what you're arguing for is the undisputed truth
Can you show me some axioms that can be proven? What I'm arguing for is the undisputable truth under the axioms everyone believes and acts according to. A fucking moron like you might pretend disagree intellectually but you still won't like it when I stab you in the balls.
>No, not everyone agrees on it
Who doesn't?
>something being universally accepted doesn't make it true
It's not just universally accepted, it's universally experienced. I don't need absolute truth, I'm fine with human truth. I know that I suffer and that I don't like it, and I know that everyone else suffers and that they don't like it – it's as simple as that.

Read the biography of
napoleon, malcom x
gurdijeff

Then read up on the life of all these authors.
Then your lenses will be demystified. Becuase if these people live a bougie life then they are deluded,
can tell you many of those people were just spoiled brats.
And the spitiual weigt they place on their books and words read by others is but a feather compared to how heavy their "status" as an "intellectual" and "author".
These people dont seek to enlighten you, they become inpired and taken over by their negative thoughts and recursive spite for those negative thoughts.
They want to drag you down and not lift you up.
I don;t need so many people in so many ways tell me life is shit, people are fuckbags , and its all futile. they arent sages or great thinkers, but misanthropes, misistenialists.
I've expierence the visceral felling of this rather than being enraptured by their etherial quality that only prose can produce.


Read something you will enjoy, instead of books that make you feel like shit.
Atleast bukowski, amd vonnegut add a bit of humor in their dark shit.


If your life is filled with despair, look towrds greatness, amd cultivate that within you.

>>15341975
>>15341989
Junger as well

>>15358802
>don't listen to reason, just cope
All you're saying is that the pessimists are wrong and stupid because they don't make you feel good and mysticism is good and wise because it makes you feel good. How about you fuck off with your drivel instead of trying to drag others down into your mire of illusion and stupidity?

>>15358835
How are any of these faggots in the op
not telling you that hedonism is an option.
if life is shit , we make it better.

You really think you can asaign a truth value to all this bullshit?
not just small t but big T truth?

Why don't you go fuck off and gain more expierence so you can level up.

Im saying that i don't need a faggot with a phd in enlish lit from paris france to tell me how shit life is, i already know that, im trying to change that.

Also how objective do you think these guys are?
you think they accept subjective expierence?
these bastards really selling things out in tautologies and syllogisms or are they using pretty words to spoil your mind, weave a story to keep your mind trapped and hopless.

There are many faces power manifests. You start off with baby power in which you manipulate your world with crying out and being helpless. The reason why you refute everyone who wants to get you out of your whiney helplessness is so you can hold on to that last little bit of power you think you have left.

Let go of your dummy so you have a free hand to pick up something else. Baby power does not work because you don't have a cute little face and the sickly sweet baby scent emerging from top of your head does not weaken men and women alike anymore

>>15358737
>I'm a consciousness in a vehicle made up of cells
So that's a yes.
>Who doesn't?
Nietzsche, for one
>I don't need absolute truth, I'm fine with human truth.
Most people find suffering almost always bad, and most people find life almost always good. If the first is humanly true because it is widely believed, then the second must be humanly true as well; by claiming that life is bad because of suffering, you're cherrypicking the human truths you personally identify with and rejecting the ones you don't.

>>15359152
>by claiming that life is bad because of suffering, you're cherrypicking the human truths you personally identify with and rejecting the ones you don't.

you're doing the exact same thing

>>15354178
Ahhh! Enlightenment at last!

>>15341975
*blocks ur path*

>>15359152
>most people find life almost always good
Do they? Do you think most of humanity living in poverty and disease and drudgery and war through most of history thought life is something cheerful and wonderful? I'd say the ones that do do so because of privilege and delusions, but either way the consent argument still stands. You don't get to gamble with someone's fate, especially given the possibilities of misery you're aware of. If I concede that we can't really calculate the ratios of peace and pleasure to suffering in life, you still don't get to gamble, because you can't tell – suffering could be tipping the scale for all you know. You don't have a leg to stand on, you have to retreat to extreme lengths of ridiculousness to defend this nonsense, and you're a fucking scumbag for trying to defend it.

>>15360304
thought i'd see more people talking about this guy here

>>15357998
You think the world is on fire and also deny the existence of water. Hence you see no solution. I say again, until you end your own suffering, you will not know how to end any other being's suffering. There is a life that rises above stimulus-reaction, in which stimuli are dreamlike. You can keep clutching to suffering as a safety blanket from the realization the world of the senses is a dream, but do not hold it up as the summit of wisdom, you Ivan Karamazov.

>>15359175
I'm not because I'm not the one who's committed himself to "human truth". If I *had* committed myself to it and then went on to ignore some human truths in favor of others, then I would be cherrypicking.

>>15361022
>Do you think most of humanity living in poverty and disease and drudgery and war through most of history thought life is something cheerful and wonderful?
That's not what I said. People don't have to think life is all sunshine and rainbows to think life is good. The simple fact is that most people like living and will accept some amount of gratuitous suffering if that's what it takes to stay alive. This implies that your evaluation of life is wrong.
>either way the consent argument still stands
Most people believe that there's nothing inherently wrong with bringing someone into the world, and that you don't need to ask for consent from the person who will be born in order to have them be born. These are also human truths, and your arguments for antinatalism are forced to ignore them altogether.

>>15361338
>>15360304

cringe crypto-homo eceleb

>>15361597
>I'm not because I'm not the one who's committed himself to "human truth". If I *had* committed myself to it and then went on to ignore some human truths in favor of others, then I would be cherrypicking.

then you're committed to an abstraction that doesn't exist anywhere but in your head. and you tell doomers to be objective. don't make me laugh.

>>15341975
Read Hegel and glimpse the necessity in the chaos

Most of all don't fall for mystics peddling their safe and easy solutions like Evolafags, I fell into that hole once and you'll find that by trying to impose a rationality and a presence into a world that is fundamentally absence you'll only drive yourself into further desperation as your prefabricated worldview inevitably fails to describe reality

>>15361646
>I fell into that hole once and you'll find that by trying to impose a rationality and a presence into a world that is fundamentally absence

actually read Evola when you "read Evola", retard

>>15361629
>then you're committed to an abstraction that doesn't exist anywhere but in your head.
And that is...?
>and you tell doomers to be objective.
Literally where did I do that? All I've done is argue against doomers who act like they've foiund the one true reality by pointing out the self-contradictory nature of doomer beliefs.

>>15361662
>you say life bad, some people think life good, have you ever considered that?

really poaching those pistachios faggot

>>15361581
Entering literal fucking gibberish territory now. Holy kek. Even if your magical enlightenment could be verified to be real, it wouldn't justify the billions and trillions of lives that were denied access to it. Even if it were real, it's still just fixing the problem, when there's no need to keep creating the problem in the first place.
>>15361597
>accept some amount of gratuitous suffering if that's what it takes to stay alive
What fucking choice do they have, retard? You have to cope with this nonsense once you're in it, no shit. That's the point, there's NO NEED to keep creating the thing that needs to cope with the nonsense. For what purpose? How can it be justified?
>Most people believe that there's nothing inherently wrong with bringing someone into the world
They don't even consider it, stupid fuck. Most people aren't concerned with any kind of philosophy or ethics, they're morons who just want to follow their group's standards and make their genitals feel good. Just because you can't ask for consent doesn't mean you should just go ahead and do whatever you want.

>>15361655
I read Revolt Against the Modern World, Ride the Tiger, Heathen Imperialism, The Worker in the Thought of Ernst Juenger, Metaphysics of War

Retroactively now I see them as shit books even though I was enamored of them when I first read them, Evola is a quack like all his "esoterist" buddies and literally everything he wrote is worthless (even Juenger refused to talk with him and despised his interpretation of The Worker)

Read Furio Jesi's critique of Evola (and maybe Foucault's Pendulum by Eco) and you'll quickly realize why you shouldn't bother with neither him nor any other dumb "esoteric" bullshit

>>15361717
Not a single refutation of his ideas. Trad niggers are cringe but so are you when you can't even articulate why

>>15361729
>Not a single refutation of his ideas. Trad niggers are cringe but so are you when you can't even articulate why

His ideas are fundamentally essentialist and always claim to speak for some higher truth which is why they're so hard to refute apparently - if you react in the most sensible, "natural" way to Evola's ideas ("these claims are just wild and not based in anything observable, why should I listen to you?"), an evolafag will tell you that you're not enlightened enough to get them

In reality the easiest way to refute evola's ideas is to simply observe him work - he juggles mythological concepts, archaeological facts, intepretations of various historical text, all trying to desperately prove a point he wants to make. There's never any attempt at contradiction, there's no highlighting problems or aspects that merit further investigation - Evola knows it all, he's always right he's been enlightened and now he'll be so kind to share a bit of enlightenment with you. Evola books don't engage in dialogue with the reader - they just pretend to impart wisdom upon him, and will accept no contradiction

You could spend hours using facts provided by actual historians debunking his claims made in Revolt Against the Modern World to demonstrate that his whole shit about cycles and atlantis and shit is all crud - you could use stuff written by real mythologists to prove that every single interpretation he gives of myths is skewed at best and completely bullshit at worst. But Evola, and the evolafag, will just shrug and reply that whoever provided the evidence to disprove his ludicrous claims was borne by someone who hasn't seen the light of tradition, or is a secret Jew, or some other similar bullshit

Evolafags like to act like they've finally achieved a secret wisdom away from the eyes of the uninitiated, they're no better than a cult in how they think and they conveniently disregard that this esoteric secret knowledge can be bought for a few bucks at any book store, and ultimately fail to see how incredibly ridiculous they are in believing in fairy tales

>>15361798
so do you have an actual, specific refutation of his ideas? fuck dude

>>15361824
>>15361824
If you want a complete and thorough refutation of Evola's entire philosophical work then you'd need to read a fucking book, do I think I have enough time to waste explaining you why the shit Evola wrote in the course of dozens of books is bullshit?

I just pointed at one philosopher who did it, Furio Jesi

Also, if you can't see that a refutation of the philosophical methods of Evola is in fact "an actual, specific refutation of his ideas", then you don't belong on this board, go amuse yourself somewhere else

>>15361855
>read all these big boy books
>can't even mention one fucking idea or concept

>>15361670
Great job proving you don't understand my argument.
My point is that the argument used to justify the claim that suffering is bad can also be applied to "prove" that life is good.
>>15361680
>What fucking choice do they have, retard?
They can kill themselves, and they do just that when they feel life isn't worth living. The fact that most people don't do so shows that they think life *is* worth living.
>They don't even consider it, stupid fuck. Most people aren't concerned with any kind of philosophy or ethics, they're morons who just want to follow their group's standards and make their genitals feel good.
Wow, what a kind person you are. I can tell you care deeply for your fellow man.
But now you're implying that widely-held human opinions aren't necessarily true so your only argument in favor of the proposition that suffering is bad has crumbled away and you need to find yourself a new justification for it, otherwise I could just follow your lead and dismiss it as being the product of ignorance.

>>15356727
>>15356923
Here's a funny extract from one of Herman Melville's letters that I found awhile ago - its kinda reminds me of this debate you're having:

>In reading some of Goethe's sayings, so worshipped by his votaries, I came across this, "Live in the all." That is to say, your separate identity is but a wretched one, -- good; but get out of yourself, spread and expand yourself, and bring to yourself the tinglings of life that are felt in the flowers and the woods, that are felt in the planets Saturn and Venus, and the Fixed Stars.

>What nonsense! Here is a fellow with a raging toothache. "My dear boy," Goethe says to him, "you are sorely afflicted with that tooth; but you must live in the all, and then you will be happy!" As with all great genius, there is an immense deal of flummery in Goethe, and in proportion to my own contact with him, a monstrous deal of it in me.

>>15361886
lmao based. it's the fundamentally "Judaic" response to evil because its prototype is God's answer to Job: live in the All bro and don't ask questions,

>>15361868
Evola's method is itself a "fucking idea or concept"

He's extremely essentialist, he claims so himself in the first chapters of the Revolt, and he claims that the path to knowledge is seeing this essential reality that is hidden away to normal eyes and is unveiled via "initiation"

The hidden claim is that him, the writer, has been initiated and thus can impart his knowledge, while the reader has not been initiated yet - so, any attempt to rationally criticize Evola's claims with factual evidence will be deflected by saying "oh, you're simply not initiated enough"

Want an example of a single "fucking idea or concept"? Sure, pick up revolt against the modern world - you'll find claims that ancient civilizations were in fact hyperboreans, atlanteans, and similar stuff. Want me to refute that? I don't need to, there's plenty of archaeology and ancient history books who did it for me, as well as loads studies on mythology, anthropology, etc etc. But the evolafag doesn't care, right?

>>15361920
>evola is essentialist, academics aren't, BTFO

you typed so much to say so fucking little.

appeal to academic consensus + fear and hatred of elitism = the platonic midwit

>>15361899
but at least the Book of Job doesn't deny the existence of suffering or evil

>>15361899
Live in the all is absolutely not a judaic thing you retard. This would be more like taoism. Judaism is live according to the laws and traditions.

>>15361965
no, only drowns it in the Whole, rendering it meaningless. the subjective reality of suffering becomes more grist for the cosmic mill.

you have to take a step back to appreciate the picture broooo *is okay with a superficially harmonious, static Whole composed of the pointillistic suffering of millions, billions, maybe trillions of Jobs*

>>15361979
you're right, probably more Hellenic, but the Judaic answer to suffering is grounded in the same confidence in the justice of the cosmic order, now anthropomorphized as God (and so long as certain moral and ethical conditions are met)

>>15341975
Why is existential nihilism inherently malevolent?
>If life had meaning, you could fail to fulfill it
>If life had purpose, you would be a slave to it
>If life had value, you would have to find a buyer
In short, if your life had any positive existential qualities, then it would be less free and more restrained. In short, an existential life would not be life, because freedom is essential to life; it's only quality is the negative quality of having no goal, hence it can be shaped.

>>15361878
>They can kill themselves, and they do just that when they feel life isn't worth living.
Killing yourself doesn't erase the suffering you've gone through, and it's not easy. The possibility of a person becoming so miserable that they take their life is just a point in favor of my argument.
>The fact that most people don't do so shows that they think life *is* worth living.
It shows that we're entrapped by our instinct to survive and tangled up in delusions and irrationality. Even if you think it's worth living, you don't get to bet on your child being fortunate enough to be capable of having that illusion.
>Wow, what a kind person you are. I can tell you care deeply for your fellow man.
I do, I hate the fact that they have to live as vacuous moronic scumbags just because that's what nature made them.
>But now you're implying that widely-held human opinions aren't necessarily true so your only argument in favor of the proposition that suffering is bad has crumbled away
No. People aren't reasonable and their conclusions don't line up with the accepted axioms, that's all it is. You're a fucking moron with stockholm syndrome, impotently defending the psychopath torturing all of us. Nature is an evil whore that rapes and eats her children, stop trying to defend it.

>>15361993
This kind of cosmic cope is characteristic of the ancients in general. For Hebrews it's "you can't grasp the lord design, so suck it", for Greeks it is "Gods are dicks, deal with it". Either way the heart of the belief is resignation if not acceptance.

>>15362075
>>15361993
Ecclesiastes, I need only say Ecclesiastes.

>>15362075
Exactly, which is why the gnostics and dudes like this >>15362038 are the only ones talking sense.

Every single one of the samsaracucks in these threads ("you're just a depressed loser" ... "the sun is shining bro, get over yourself" ...) are basically Job's obnoxious midwit friends trying to make him feel like cosmic injustice is his fault. The entire program of judeo-christianity and its structure of sin and repentance consists in this.

>>15362099
Lmao a book that, along with Job, Biblical scholars willing to admit had a Hellenic author. The only time suffering is paid any mind in the OT is precisely when the Jewishness of the author is disputed

>>15362103
>The entire program of judeo-christianity and its structure of sin and repentance consists in this.

Makes me think of Leopardi:
>My philosophy essentially rules out misanthropy, it tends toward healing, to dissolving discontent and hatred. My philosophy holds nature guilty of everything, it acquits mankind completely and directs our hate, or at least our lamentations, to its matrix, to the true origin of the afflictions living creatures suffer.

Things are mechanically determined and ultimately a tautology under the guise of a higher causal power that contains and originated everything. Despite this existence as a conscious being is vastly preferable to an unconscious being, a nerve that simply responds to simuli. And while our thoughts and decisions ultimately fall under the tautology we can't devise any device no matter how hard we try to build it that fully predicts and determines how we can construct language, decisions and justifications for them.

So we have the illusion of the freedom in the relatively short mortal life we live and thats pretty decent and you should try to enjoy it before we are all potentially carted off to a terror dimension or worse existence which is certainly possible and very imaginable.

>>15362157
Precisely, how is man responsible for the millions of years of evolution that it takes for him on the scene? Forget evolution, how is man responsible for energy and thermodynamics? Why should the wages of his sin apply to creatures incapable of sin, like animals, since he is locked in the same struggle to survive as they are? The source of these determinations isn't humanity, it's honestly cartoonish to think so

>>15362195
>and you should try to enjoy it before we are all potentially carted off to a terror dimension or worse existence which is certainly possible and very imaginable.

How can I enjoy it knowing this? Like chill nigga I think about this possibility all the time.

>>15362207
You enjoy it because you have 70+ years of relative decency as a conscious being attached to a monkey which is pretty good considered the potential alternatives and you stop worrying about it because no amount of goofy copium changes the nature of being a physical thing in linear time determined by its construction.

>>15341975
>Buddha
>absence of rational outcomes

>>15347676
Mushishi

>>15362232
Bro just sit in the Maw and watch video game retrospectives on YouTube until the end of time

Under anti-natalism, is it ethical for us to just suicide ourselves? Don't we have an ethical responsibility to keep developing until we can suicide all life in the cosmos, or at least in our universe? Or should all the planets take care of themselves? What if there's a way to end existence once and for all if we attained enough power?

>>15362307
Like you have access to endless (to our mortal perspective) permutations of language and stories and lines of inquiry which should be more than enough to keep you entertained and fulfilled for a lifetime. Of course if you instead try to murder your conscious being and turn into an economic unit or ideologue you will be very unhappy so don't bother with that.

>>15362340
Anti-Natalism is a false premise because we just don't know how worse things could get after death, and they could be very bad.

>>15362357
If no people are born then there is no death to speak of. And death is inevitable, so it's not like you would be doing much by delaying it; in fact, you would be letting life propagate further, allowing the creation of even more new consciousnesses to go to the even worse world when they die. In that scenario you should sacrifice yourself and go in earlier yourself so that there will be no more new beings that will have to suffer the same fate. Anyway, you can't base any real-world actions on such a wild unverifiable hypothesis.

>Value is placed by the subject
there I solved it

>>15362459
>what if existence is a feeding tube for a postmortal terror dimension engineered for hunger and sexuality

lol Jesus fucking Christ

>>15362502
Ask the guy I responded to, it's not my idea.

>>15362459
For all you know we could be the relatively heavenly existence and people born in this world get a small reprieve from a terror torture dimension. Now I very much agree that humans who are stupid who reproduce cause immense amounts of suffering because they simply don't appreciate the ethical weight of bringing another being into existence, but I think life can be made bearable if your parents understand the basics of existential philosophy.

Considering most people in history didn't and ended up as simple tools of their rulers, their genes used as nothing more than vessels for the memes handed down to them by their malicious rulers it is a bit sad. But we can avoid such things now with the relative freedom of information. Is having children selfish? Yes. Is it immoral if you are an ideologue or simpleton? Absolutely. But I'm unconvinced you can't have a child and give them a life and consciousness worth living if you really put the effort forward.

>>15362518
>For all you know we could be the relatively heavenly existence and people born in this world get a small reprieve from a terror torture dimension.
Ignoring how hilarious it is that this is what you have to reach for to defend your position, there's just no reason to believe this. As far as we know consciousness begins and ends here. It's what we have to work with and we can't be blamed for ignorance if it isn't the case.
>But I'm unconvinced you can't have a child and give them a life and consciousness worth living if you really put the effort forward.
You're no the master of your domain, there's an infinity of possibilities and you can't guarantee anything no matter how well-off you are.

>>15362612
>There's just no reason to believe this
Ah well now I have to explain my autistic metaphysics. So we already concede we are all contained in some immense entity that originated all causality. The entity contains every arrangement of particles and movement of time space, and thought and so on, and it moved first, and created itself, and we are part of it living somewhere within it.

Now thought is both reactive and recursive, thought occurs when your brain processes some information from the mechanically changing environment, and thoughts especially via language can be recursive and feed into themselves, and mathematically speaking we can't exhaust every permutation of thought and language if we really tried to do it. Every thought that you have is ultimately an arrangement allowed by the entity we are contained in, the set of allowable thoughts is predetermined.

So what does this mean? There is an entity that determines all causality that also contains all thoughts and their permutations, and this first moving entity in all likelihood assembled everything within its power in every permutation and style and arrangement it could which determined the totality of existence. Now since thought exists, and is part of this entity, it is likely able to assemble anything it can think of. A bit of a stretch but it lines up with how Quantum Field Theory works and needs some sort of larger infinite branching structure to function. So in total if we assume this original first moving entity to be a totality then every thought we can have, or it can have it has assembled into existence in some order or permutation.

So given this it isn't a stretch we are in some universal permutation either singularly or connected to a few other universes, or an ominverse, any such permutations are possible and exist somewhere. And as such it is possible any terrible thing we imagine may very well be a possibility of our local place in existence.

As per your second point, I think avoiding all suffering is unnecessary sure you can't prevent tragedy or cataclysm but you can enable a really good chance that a child is net satisfied with their life and existence.

>>15362712
But so is every beautiful and celestial thing. You are essentially correct though. It's time... it's time to take the Procluspill.

>>15342149
What do I do when I'm dumber, wiser than normo?

>>15362754
Of course that goes without saying, and why everything kind of evens out and the only guess you have to make is whether you existence is above or below an acceptable average level of possible suffering. And I would say our existence might be below average but certainly not too far below.

As far as Neoplatonist gang I don't mind them but I just don't really see a reason to use their depreciated language and systems when Spinoza did a good enough job modernizing them.

>>15362813
If there's a hell at least there's a heaven is what I always say

>>15362712
>gibber gabber gibber gabber
ok
>So what does this mean? There is an entity that determines all causality that also contains all thoughts and their permutations
Don't see where this follows from. Some entity doesn't resolve the infinite regress problem anyway, unless you say it's self-creating and transcendent, but that's unverifiable anyway. It might as well just be the universe that's self-creating, no reason to think there's some entity preceding it. Engage in your metaphysics fartsniffing all you want but none of it is verifiable or concrete enough to calculate into concrete decisions about concrete matters.
>you can enable a really good chance that a child is net satisfied with their life and existence.
There is always a chance for profound misery, and you don't get to gamble on that because it's not your life on the line. Simple as that.

>>15362931
>gibber gabber gibber gabber
>Don't see where this follows from

Hmm big think.

It's not that there is a transcendant self creating entity, its that we are in a self creating entity that necessarily contains and arranged all things. Causality has never broken down in any observation we have ever had, and any time we think it has we are quickly proven wrong and have made some mistake.

So its not unreasonable to assume something self created because how else does the chain of causality start. And it also makes sense to assume that self created thing's nature contains all things it caused because transcendent alien forces don't just appear to cause emergent properties or other things.

You are appealing to a stupid cop out of ignorance and saying "well the universe is just a self creating infinite thing lets not think about the implications of what that means" and also assuming we can just throw up our hands and declare physicality without addressing these casual implications is hilarious.

>>15362996
>So its not unreasonable to assume something self created
It's unreasonable to assume anything about this.
>And it also makes sense to assume that self created thing's nature contains all things it caused
Why?
>transcendent alien forces don't just appear to cause emergent properties or other things
What? How do you know?
>You are appealing to a stupid cop out of ignorance
It's not a cop-out, it's an honest admission. We don't know.
>assuming we can just throw up our hands and declare physicality
I'm not assuming anything, I was being generous by responding to your nonsense. What does any of this hypothetical gibberish have to do with the very practical question at hand?

>>15363420
>It's unreasonable

So what, it's more reasonable to assume causality breaks down at some point inexplicably? Because that is what you are saying.

>Why?
Because you can extrapolate different "reasonable" explanations for existence endlessly, oh its a simulation, oh its a induced dream etc etc and it never ends. But obviously causality holds true so there is a first mover, and for the first mover to explain existence it contains all the existence is causes.

>Transcendent alien forces don't exist

Because just from the entire onset the word and concept of something transcendent is a misnomer, either something exists and is possible or it doesn't nothing is transcendent and its all ultimately contained in the same big thing.

>Question at hand.

Because there are more unknowns then you admit, and your quip "It's not your gamble to take" is completely nonsensical. You could make the same argument by not having as many children as possible you deny the extreme pleasure and happiness of a potential being and thus generate suffering. And again, suffering and misery is entirely subjective and this existence might be endless bliss generating paradise to other people. And if you add on top of that all the possible types of nested realities that are potentially enjoyable or miserable experiences then it really is nonsensical to attribute suffering to every aspect of life. It's merely your personal aesthetic opinion.

>>15363525
So much fucking nonsense. I'm really tired.
>it's more reasonable to assume causality breaks down at some point inexplicably
no, you don't have to assume anything
we can't be faulted for our ignorance, we can't exist without action, we have to make do with what we have, we need to take the most reasonable path we can see
>But obviously causality holds true
>so there is a first mover,
>and for the first mover to explain existence it contains all the existence is causes
explain these two jumps of logic in detail
how does it work and how do you know
how is a first mover any less nonsensical than an infinite regress
>You could make the same argument by not having as many children as possible you deny the extreme pleasure and happiness of a potential being and thus generate suffering.
you don't generate suffering by not bringing something into existence, are you fucking retarded?
there's no being in this world that doesn't suffer, that much is obvious
how much you don't know and the amount of variables is just more to the point that you don't have any right to make gambles like that
there's nothing to hurt if you don't make it
>suffering and misery is entirely subjective
no, there's nothing subjective about it
suffering is suffering, we all know what we're talking about
again you have to retreat into a "nothing means anything" argument like the previous douche because that's all you have left
>this existence might be endless bliss generating paradise to other people
what, where, how
>attribute suffering to every aspect of life
I don't

>>15363664
There is a first mover because causality as far as we can tell only goes one way. Future events don't suddenly wrap around and start regressing on the past, or at least nothing lack that happens in our experience. It's on a similar level of explanation of an infinite regress but if we live in an infinite regress then you deciding to be anti natalist doesn't prevent any suffering anyways cause its all fatalistically determined to happen forever anyways.

>No being that doesn't suffer
>We all know what suffering is
>Nothing means anything

Suffering is a word with meaning retard, your are invoking it like a geist or a spirit. And even if you protest and try to wimble wamble your meaning of suffering is the exactly the same as a utilitarian's. So all you are assuming is that every beings utility function is a net negative and the moral thing to do is end all utility functions so utility goes to zero and no one suffers. But to establish this premise of all beings utility functions being net negative objectively is impossible it is literally a matter of opinion. So unless you find a more compelling argument it is literally just your opinion of other beings utility functions and nothing else.

>>15363727
>assuming is that every beings utility function is a net negative
nope
going back to the central argument
you not being able to know whether it's net positive, zero or negative is just another reason why you have no right to gamble by imposing existence and consciousness

>>15363912
But then the rational answer isn't to cease all reproduction to guarantee zero utility, it's to reproduce responsible and allow legal guiltless self euthanasia once a person reaches a reasonable age, that way they can determine their own utility function at the time.

Pranic breathing
Transformation Mastery
Shadow work
Trauma therapy

>>15341975
be the blooming change you want to see

>>15364011
is any utility possible? how do you know and what is it? how do you determine it when you admit there's no way to deduce the net value of a life
>reproduce responsible and allow legal guiltless self euthanasia once a person reaches a reasonable age, that way they can determine their own utility function at the time
there's no way to do this without suffering, people aren't robots you psycho fuck
and again, there's no way to do anything with full cerainty so you're still gambling in place of others

what's your ingenious willy wonka solution for animal life, you victor frankenstein

>>15364240
The being themselves determines whether they want to opt out or not, and your never going to convince people to stop reproducing altogether but you might convince them suicide booths are fine.

Yes there is no way to do it without suffering but thanks to selection bias, the people who don't opt out will presumably enjoy some form of utility raising the overall average hopefully above zero. And again you're never achieving full anti-natalism so campaigning for it as a solution is pointless.

As per animal life if it is really your moral concern then start developing technologies to uplift animals to sentience so they can decide to continue living or not.

In all cases it is the individual and not me or you being the vicar of what is suffering where and when. In any case anti-natalism is a stupid numpty ideology, I agree about the issues it brings up about reproduction, and malicious optimism, but even so it reminds me of a shitty Asimov robot. "Ohhh you might stub your toe one day so don't go outside, here i'll strap you down and feed you nutrition!" Sure you might say it's "moral" but not really, it's an hypochondriac obsession to pain and suffering to the degree of psychosis. Sometimes you suffer then you get a greater reward and you die happy and satisfied in bed at a ripe old age, no need to pin your inability to do this on others.

>>15364315
>The being themselves determines whether they want to opt out or not
you're not responding to what I said
you can't guarantee this willy wonka system any more than you can guarantee anything, therefore you're still gambling
people can't detemine the net value of their lives any more than you can from the outside, especially since they die at the end and there's no way to determine the value until it's over
you can't just decide you're going to "opt out", there's terror of death and attachment to your life, I don't want to die and I don't want to be harmed
what is the necessity of bringing more life into existence that you would go to this length, what purpose does it serve, why impose the burden, what right do you have
>your never going to convince people to stop reproducing altogether
you're*
not with that attitude
>start developing technologies to uplift animals to sentience
lol
couldn't be more apt with the frankenstein comparison
not only you want to create things so they can suffer, you want to create abominations and exacerbate their suffering with the burden of consciousness and knowledge of death and evil
>it's an hypochondriac obsession to pain and suffering to the degree of psychosis. Sometimes you suffer then you get a greater reward and you die happy and satisfied in bed at a ripe old age, no need to pin your inability to do this on others.
so in the end, where all this nonsense stems from is your privilege and bias, who would have thought
a miniscule proportion of life on earth gets to live as comfortably as you do, you're ignorant of the real drudgery and suffering and what potential agony there is in store

>>15364520
>People can't determine the net value of their lives

You seemingly can, you massive crybaby. You've decided that on the pure risk of some suffering occurring no one gets to potentially be happy all utility must be brought to zero, it must all be safe and clean and there can be no boo boos on my watch.

Here's a thought, in order for you to ever reach this suicidal line of inquiry where you throw your lot in with every shitty little neuron in the dead cold clockwork we persist in there was immense human sacrifice and suffering to produce the texts and allow the festering of recursive thinking and arguably mental illness to culminate in anti-natalism as you were able to learn it.

The only privileged person in this conversation is yourself who had the capability to even be exposed to enough ideas to adopt such a decadent and stupid position. In the past you are raised as an illiterate, your body works until it breaks and you die of a tooth ache hoping for a magical after life.

But the problem is not existence itself, it is irresponsible existence which does not analyze itself or know where the memes that shape its psychological structure come from and end up as mere automaton slaves of other men. Sure you're welcome to run around larping as an Asimov robot, crying from to the rooftops about reducing harm but people will keep reproducing, they will be trained to, to get the elite to even accept legal euthanasia would be a herculean effort.

Have you ever considered simply not caring? After all our fates our all fatalistically determined, all suffering we were doled or not doled was going to occur anyways, and will occur with or without your input. As such it would be more moral to make things more livable for the people who continue to persist then a doomed romantic suicide pact.

Suffering schmuffering, agony schmagony the anti natalist is just cold steel the edgehog.

>>15364658
>crybaby
>boo boos
>agony schmagony
resorting to sheer calloussness now, at least you're finally admitting that you're a careless scumfuck
tell this to those torn apart and eaten alive, burned alive, crucified, impaled asshole first, raped and tortured for months, etc.
>In the past you are raised as an illiterate, your body works until it breaks and you die of a tooth ache hoping for a magical after life.
yep
that's what you're defending, fuckface
I really can't tell what your point here is, I don't deny I'm privileged
nature is a piece of shit, evolution is retarded, history has been a nightmare, and now that we're at this level of development we have the opportunity to end this nonsense at least on this planet
>people will keep reproducing, they will be trained to
yes, and we have to fight that
since I was able to come to this conclusion by reason then other people should be able to as well, especially with the help of others
it's not an impossibly complex thing to understand, there's just a lot of nonsense rationalization and coping to cut down as a lot of posters in this thread have demonstrated
>As such it would be more moral to make things more livable
I do and I will, while also arguing for the horror show to eventually stop altogether

>>15364777
Oh how much you feel, look at what a fucking empath you are, this is all just a satisfaction of your ego, an altar for which to sniff your own farts and to give meaning to what is a meaningless ball bearing run of existence. It's a huge cope to begin with. It isn't rational, its hardly coherent, your entire point about "how can you even know something isn't suffering" is ridiculous and can simply be thrown back at your obsession with suffering, any claim you make about suffering can simply be rdiscarded with your same illogic. It's a fetishization and obsession, it's basically a religion for you, with the big impossible enchilada being mass suicide.

If you don't see how this is no different than the christian ego, then fine continue your empath crusade. But such a thing is completely unneeded, the vast majority of harm comes from other humans and ideology which are much easier problems to solve over a relatively short time span. In any case everything will be dead in a few trillion years so it really doesn't matter.

You're right many more humans will be born into shitholes by slave retards and suffer immensely, but honestly that can't be helped, masters and slaves are just a physical reality of violent force. For those that actually eke out a healthy and happy existence, spare your incredulity and your resentment which clearly spurs this self righteous parroting of ideology. I would try to find a healthier way to construct your self than this.

>>15341975
Ελεύθερος βίος.

>>15364868
>"how can you even know something isn't suffering"
I don't even know what you're talking about here, please quote directly
>But such a thing is completely unneeded, the vast majority of harm comes from other humans and ideology which are much easier problems to solve over a relatively short time span.
the suffering comes from nature and the way it's constructed, animal suffering isn't any better than human suffering
>In any case everything will be dead in a few trillion years so it really doesn't matter.
it matters because the suffering is real and can be prevented
>but honestly that can't be helped
we have the nukes to help it right now
>spare your incredulity and your resentment
I have no resentment, I just don't think the success of the few can justify the pile of twitching corpses underneath
the main point and the one to which you have no answer whatsoever is that you have no right to gamble with the welfare of another by imposing their life and consciousness when you know the risks and cannot guarantee anything
you can't calculate the net value of life and you have no way of knowing whether it's a good thing, you can't answer what purpose it serves, you have no way to justify it
you have nothing