/lit/ - Literature

>when you realize you don't have to put everything in tiers

>>15321563
Cathedrals and stained glass are superior

>art

>>15321563
Stockhausen's face reminds me of Jon Lovitz. He's also a talentless hack.

I am serious by the way. Let me elaborate.
The meaning of art is to carry a message. Even when the goal of a piece is to be in itself meaningless/message-less, that sends a message too.

Literature is locked by the confines of language.
Not only because only fluent speakers in a particular language will fully grasp the author's intent, but also because any language itself is also fundamentally limited by words and conventions.

Music is the superior art form because it transcends any possible confine known to Man.

>>15321610
>Music is the superior art form because it transcends any possible confine known to Man
Thanks that gave me a good laugh

All art is constrained by its medium, all art derives unique value from its medium

Music itself is a language fundamentally limited by conventions and established vocabulary

>>15321579
based

>>15321588
Hey, I liked The Critic. And Rat Race.

>>15321585
this

>>15321610
i know what sources youre stealing from but i promise this argument is unconvincing and nonsensical unless you develop it. constraints of language cant be blamed in your case more than your ineffectiveness.

>>15322305
It stinks!

>>15322325
>I know what sources you’re stealing from
Actually I’m stealing from no one

Not really, music has pretty much reached a dead end. Literature has not.

>>15321563
>music
>a byproduct of the development of language

Music, a derivative of language, cannot be placed above language, from which it came. Art that deals with language directly has more potential than music.

>>15321610
This is stupid. Have someone listen to a Stockhausen piece and 99% of people will be baffled by it in the same way an English only speaking person will be baffled by Russian. Of course you can learn to understand Stockhausen but you can also learn to understand other languages.

>>15321610
WOw envelopes confirmed art

nope, its architecture.

>>15322345
yes you are stealing but youre much worse as a writer

>>15322353
>>15322356
wtf retards

>>15322370
why in your estimation?

>muh jingles go jangle

>>15322404
>hubby points
Your abysmal shitpost aside, the very existence of such a thing irks me

>>15321563
Art derives its authority from the logos (the word and the image), meaning it can only ever be a craft that effaces itself according to the proper of the metaphysical ideal. Music is without this metaphysical component so it can only ever be a craft. It has to rely on an exterior medium to justify itself philosophically (writing), which invalidates the very thing it makes claim to.

>>15322356
>implying language isn't a derivative of music
sound existed before communication did, fruit boy

>>15322395
>why in your estimation?
because its the closest imitation of God. His greatest creation was Man, and we are temples of the Holy Spirit, so our greatest creation then is our temples, which we also worship God in. its the same as how the highest instrument is the voice, the instrument that God gave everyone, and the highest man-made instrument is the organ, which imitates the voice.

>>15322437
Based retard

>>15322450
Yes the tower of Babel was a fine work of art worthy of God!

>>15322450
>which imitates the voice
if this is true then a simple reed is just as good as the organ.

>His greatest creation was Man, and we are temples of the Holy Spirit, so our greatest creation then is our temples
and if this is true then a simple table or book rest is just as good as the building

your reasons are pretty sounding but i dont think you thought things through that much

>>15322450
Churches are covered with pagan imagery and their sculptors often used prostitutes as their models, sometimes gay male prostitutes. Don't you realize how cucked your theory is?

Music has no appeal to me for some reason. I'm about to be 30 in a few months and I've never listened to a full "album", in fact I can't name any. I just don't see the value here. Movies are better for storytelling, books are better for intellectual engagement, videogames are better for entertainment. Most music annoys me, it's too boring to dedicate all my attention to it, and I'd rather have silence as a background for other activities. I like some David Bowie songs because he was a great poet, but that's about it. Maybe some videogame OSTs or some shit.

>>15322505
>music has no appeal to me
ok autist but no one cares

>>15322437
sound is not music. Music is a human interpretation of sound, one which is a byproduct of the evolution of language. That's why you can train yourself to appreciate less accessible compositions as music. A sound can be music, and the more you train yourself the more things you can teach your brain to recognize as such.

>>15321563
Do we really have to have these shitty debate threads about which art forms are superior? Even as much of a shithole as /v/ is at least console war threads are pruned.

>>15322437
Absolutely retarded. Please think seriously about suicide, sometimes its a noble choice.

>>15322485
bad argument. by that logic i could just as easily say that because folk music isn't as complex as a symphony, then all music is a low art form. even still, architecture on the small scale is still higher and nobler than music. Christ was a carpenter for a reason.
>your reasons are pretty sounding but i dont think you thought things through that much
fuck off back to r*ddit with your passive aggressive faggotry

>>15322527
>Music is a human interpretation of sound, one which is a byproduct of the evolution of language.
Prove it. Either explain it or post a strong academic work about it.

>>15322536
You're retarded unless you actually explain things.

>>15322437
dont worry bro you are 100% correct, these fags don't even realize that their speech is just really gay music

>>15321563
well if it makes you feel better some 20th and 21st century architects agree with you. Though design based on drawing "sound waves" hardly seems to do music justice if it really is all so powerful because of its abstraction.

>>15322542
>even still, architecture on the small scale is still higher and nobler than music.

>african shithuts are better than a symphony
>i dont know what im talking about but here are my bad takes anyway

>>15322546
thank you white knight for defending my theory

>>15322356
>>15322437
All art is "communication", in that it is outputting something that is meant to be recieved (and, in the case of videogames, we are supposed to communicate back).
First, we must determine where the value in art lies. Does it lie in the escapism it provides? If it does, then we shall test each artform for it's capabilities of immersiveness. Does it lie in an ability to relax and rejuvinate us? Nietzsche might agree with this, insofar as he came down against Wagner who did the opposite. Does it lie in the ability to excite? Does it lie in the ability to pleasure? etc. etc. Then, and only then, can we start ranking artforms.

>>15322564
>r*dditspacing
and i obviously meant from context that small scale architecture is greater than small scale music. i literally even said that music isn't lower than all architecture in the previous sentence, so now you're disagreeing with your first argument. anyway none of that even matters because its clear you're just a butthurt atheist and probably a stoner who listens to pink floyd and thinks he's deep.

Based forms of art: war, conquest, building of fortifications, political assassination, organization of guerilla warfare, ethnic cleansing, ethnic replacement through mass rape

Cringe forms of art: literature, cinema, music, anime

>>15322596
This is another problem with all these discussions on "art". What the hell is "art"? What aspects must a thing have to be considered "art"?

>>15322582
Nah art differs from communication in that the form matches the content

>>15322497
and you came from clay, but both inspirations are divine

>music is the most superior form of art
>blacks invented most modern music genres
what does this mean?

>>15322596
you fool, anime and ethnic cleansing go hand-in-hand.

>>15322594
>i literally even said that music isn't lower than all architecture
>i said this i said that
>disregard that im a faggot

>>15322628
ok buddy, time to go back to r*ddit now.

>>15322645
i dont see the problem all the greentext quoted you exactly

You're legitimately an emotional retard if you think of art forms in terms of inferior/superior

>>15322612
Yes, of course it differs. That wasn't the point I made though.

>>15322622
that music died in the 50s

>>15322685
you come across like an emotional retard anyway

>>15322685
>emotional retard

>>15322356
Music existed before language.
>>15322367
99% of people will be baffled by any genuine art.

>>15322415
>Art derives its authority from the logos (the word and the image)
Wrong.

I love how people start with wrong assumptions and then gladly go on logically deducing from those wrong assumptions, and because those assumptions are wrong, they continue to logically deduce from them with such ease that they are actually proud of themselves.

>I love how...

>>15322801
>Music existed before language.
This is precisely why music is garbage. At its core music is just a collection of codified primal responses to audio stimuli. Its base and animalistic, lacking in humanity and intelligent beauty. This is why blacks are so attuned to music - they are after all half beasts. To find art in music is as absurd as finding art in farting, or urination, or snoring.

>>15322866
funniest post in this thread

>>15321610
Why didn't you play us a piano piece instead of telling this shit, I think you're onto something

>>15322801
>99% of people will be baffled by any genuine art
This has nothing to do with my point

>>15322893
Let's encourage him, maybe our culture will evolve to communicate in music

>>15322866
>primal responses
>base and animalistic
.
.
.
.
.
>lacking in humanity

Nigger, what?

>>15322866
God i really hope I find more of your posts

>>15322546
not that poster, but music is generally a social construct, and not an "universal language" as a lot of us initially think. primitive tribes don't have the same concept of music as we do, and a lot of music can be noise to others, since noise is just unwanted sound.

for example: when you hear Ode to Joy, you may feel it's a message to humanity, but someone who isn't educated in the piece and doesn't have a western ear will feel different.

>>15322883
>Why didn't you play us a piano piece instead of telling this shit, I think you're onto something
Language is used to communicate directly and precisely.

Music is used to communicate indirectly. Imprecisely. Only giving vague hints at meaning, and dropping general clues at what emotional spheres should be touched.

Now ask yourself - is ART meant to be communication that's precise, direct, obvious and unsubtle?

Or imprecise, ambiguous, leaving room to interpretation?

>>15322931
>someone who isn't educated in the piece and doesn't have a western ear will feel different.
Not an argument. Someone who isn't educated won't get any art at all.

>>15322940
It's meant to be understood, your terms 'direct' and 'indirect' are spooks

>>15322931
Hard disagree, we all react to pretty music in whichever way we react to x (pretty) music. Bass is understood on a primal level similarly. Kant said in his aesthetics that we all understand the nature of a beautiful song objectively but agreeable songs subjectively

>>15322954
No they are not.
ART by *definition* differs from CRAFT in the sense that craft is very precise and direct, while art is imprecise and indirect.

Language is craft. Literature is thus ever confined by it.

Music is human art unchained.

>>15322940
Romantic music imposes a deep feeling in us while witty music, like classical or even good rap, gives us a different feeling.

>>15322554
agreed

>>15322979
I'll bite how do they differ? Why can't writing be an art as well as a craft and similarly music/painting

It's actually urban design and architecture. All of the art in the world is worthless if the place you live is ugly, unpleasant, disquieting, alienating, etc.

>>15321563
Sound from spirit.
Lyric from mind.
Instrumentation from body.

>>15321563
>music is the most superior art form
>art form
>"art"
only animals get stimulus from pictures and sounds

>>15322988
I'm talking about the fundamental nature of the medium. Not about the uses.

Language's fundamental nature resembles that of craft. While music's fundamental nature resembles that of art itself.

Schopenhauer himself considered music to be the highest form of art.

What about dance?

>>15321563
Stockhausen aint music

>>15323008
I just consider the fundamental nature to be both but craft is the particular of the art. At some point writing was considered heavy art looking at the greeks, it hasn't been very different until after the mid 19th century when science dictated we need writing to be short and concise in the west and it spread and wasn't helped by the development of new mediums. I'm being sincere when I say I believe music or art can transcend itself into a medium of communication much as wordless memes do already.

>>15323028
Dance is mostly craft - an enhancer.
>>15323040
>I just consider the fundamental nature to be both
I dont, for the reasons aforementioned
here:
>>15322979
>>15322940
>>15321610
>>15321563

>>15323028
A good dancer is a shapeshifter, assuming flowing forms that rise out of the unconscious, to invoke the same somatic urges.

>>15321610
t. doesn't know anything about music

>>15323057
Pomo writing is 'message-less'. I don't think that's a good definition against all mediums being an art and a craft. Also considering how limited music is, golden ratios etc, and how more cerebral literature is inherently (you must comprehend the writing) I don't see music being able to expand past its limitations.

>>15321610
>the meaning of art is to carry a message
yikes
what's the message in a beautiful landscape painting?

>>15322866
>>To find art in music is as absurd as finding art in farting, or urination, or snoring.
Leopold Bloom finds his farts musical, at least

>>15321563
No, that's poetry. Music and words. You can even have pictures to go with it.

>>15323086
Thats what Im talking about. Literature is too cerebral and confined. While music just releases the primal spirits from us and touches us to the core.

Which is what art should always strive to do.

>>15323085
>what's the message in a beautiful landscape painting?
I do not consider landscape paintings art. They are craft. Illustrations.

Illustrations aren't art.

>>15323106
In a dionysian sense? Has literature never moved you in that sense perhaps first time you read plato?

>>15323117
Of course literature has moved me, but literature is always more detached from the human than music. Such are the limitations of the medium.

Whatever literature can do, music can do better.

>>15323106
>you have to think about everything to read and hear
>most of it isn't automatic
are you okay mate?

>>15323116
retard

>>15322940
>Music is used to communicate indirectly. Imprecisely. Only giving vague hints at meaning, and dropping general clues at what emotional spheres should be touched.
I don't get it. Music can include the human voice and words.

>>15323116
retard. this is incoherent.

define how you draw the line between craft and art, and ill tell you why youre wrong

>>15323140
I mean alcohol may act similarly but I don't need a dionysian treatment to know I'm alive. I think literature has more to say about man's existence than music could ever answer

As a painter I often feel envious both of music and literature.

Music is music itself, self-representation. A leap of faith into evoking anything without hardly any direct connection between sound and emotion.

On the other hand literature is so developed and polished, to the point there's literature on literature. There's books about books about books.

Meanwhile painting is stuck in the middle. Attached to the real world and perception, lacking the amount of freedom music has, lacking the development of literature, lacking in the 'presence through time' both have. I wish painting could be something bigger than it is.

Sometimes I wonder what would've happened if the CIA didn't disrupt the path art wast taking past the vanguards and into mid 1900s.

>>15323142
>>15323154
Art = parietal wall paintings in the Lascaux cave.
Prehistoric people showing us one of the earliest glimpses of human creativity and artistry.
It's art because besides mere illustration, it serves as reminiscence of a day spent in battle. Of the struggle that we call life. Everything in it, every stroke, was caused by a deeply artistic urge of relaying personal information to others in an indirect, intimate way.

Craft = Hitler's illustrations sent to the Academy of Fine Arts in Vienna.
Monkey see, monkey do.

>>15323187
You can always use literature to develop a new cultural movement and apply it to painting or music. You don't need big corporations to do it for you

>>15323157
>I think literature has more to say about man's existence than music could ever answer
The point of art is not to give answers but to create questions, retard.

>>15323197
shit-tier bait

>>15323206
>any opinion i disagree with is bait

>>15323211
>>15323197
since you got dubs, I'll bite

Explain how you can tell what illustrations are art (from a deeply artistic urge) and others are monkey see, monkey do.
Pic related, is it art or an illustration and why?

>>15323198
Yes I study daily at least to grasp the workings of the times we live in.

One thing I've noticed is that art is more democratic, but also much busier. We're full into the capitalist machine. Not even talking about marketing or corporations, we're just being bombarded by images all day, everywhere. I'd say it's a dare to make something actually genuine that goes beyond the rest. Maybe I've been reading too much Nietzsche I don't know.

>>15323223
It's art, clearly.

Essentially, it boils down to what I said at the beginning of this thread. What distinguishes art from non-art (some of which belongs to the set called "craft") is that art has a message to get across. Any message.
While non-art has no message and doesnt even want to create a message out of this lack of message.

This painting clearly has a message to tell us, therefore it's art.
Compare with the paintings of Beksinski - they're meaningless. They have no message to get across. They serve just as nicely looking souvenirs. They're merely illustrative. Therefore they are not art.

>>15323187
Image is extremely important. For a pithy example, meme isn't able to be replicated at its fastest rate without an image to represent it. This is the value of image. It seizes sight. Through sight it imposes concepts. Sound and text serve different purposes, though all three are integral in the ultimate expression.

You need to pick up where we left off.
All art -- all good art wrought with love -- contributes to the Grand Art, and this Grand Art is what makes up the dreamspace of our world. Change the world through your work.

The earth is to this thread, as individual posts are to each person's own craft.

>>15323254
Music has no message. It's the form of the movements of our emotions but without any actual objects about which to desire, and so without the pain or displeasure such movements are otherwise necessarily associated with.

>>15323269
If you're this conservative about the scope of meaning of the term "message" when dealing with art, then sorry, you're a brainlet.

>>15321563

You are correct, OP. And many people have pointed it out over the years. A couple of more-or-less random examples:

"All art constantly aspires towards the condition of music. For while in all other works of art it is possible to distinguish the matter from the form, and the understanding can always make this distinction, yet it is the constant effort of art to obliterate it. That the mere matter of a poem, for instance — its subject, its given incidents or situation; that the mere matter of a picture — the actual circumstances of an event, the actual topography of a landscape — should be nothing without the form, the spirit, of the handling; that this form, this mode of handling, should become an end in itself, should penetrate every part of the matter:— this is what all art constantly strives after, and achieves in different degrees."
— Walter Pater, 'The Renaissance'

Or something quicker and more recent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cygbND34CY

The key quotation is at the 50 second mark.

The two main reasons music > all:

a) It's the most powerful at eliciting emotion. And not just "the most powerful", but "so far and away the most powerful that all other arts are a joke beside it." (Architecture is probably next, I guess but its effect is much more subtle and slow-acting.) When it comes to making people feel things, music is to literature as an aircraft carrier is to a sharpened stick. Four seconds of music can set a mood more potently than ten pages by a good author. At times this can even be annoying — because one is *forced* to feel. "Is it not strange that sheep's guts should hale the souls out of men's bodies?"

b) Music, unlike literature, stands on its own; it isn't based on an arbitrary underlying system. To understand a book you have to know the language. To understand the Beethoven Five you just need to be a human being. That's why music is universal. The Japanese and Chinese took to Mozart like ducks to water.

There's a good quotation from Doctor Johnson: "Every man thinks meanly of himself that he was not a soldier, or was not at sea."

I think it can be adapted: "Every artist thinks meanly of himself that he is not a musician."

>>15322596
cringe.

>>15321585
>science

>>15323278
>I think illustrations have no message
>and you're being limited in the cope of the meaning of meaning
lol

>>15323279
BASED
>>15323299
Eliciting various emotions is a message in and of itself. A message that is very powerful and one that gets to the core of Man without even stating explicitly what the message is.

That's art. The highest form of it.

>>15323187
>Sometimes I wonder what would've happened if the CIA didn't disrupt the path art wast taking past the vanguards and into mid 1900s.
If this an allusion to "CIA singlehandedly spearheaded abstract art" meme, then I suggest to look up who Ciurlionis and Kupka were and stop being historically illiterate.

>>15323417
I don't think CIA spearheaded abstract art. That would've been very ignorant, as realism was being broken since late 1800s.

What I do think is that they opened the pandora box of what Duchamp predicted. Inflated the prices of american abstract expressionists, and succeeded in moving the axis of art from London-Paris to New York. Pushed the hardest for art to be legitimized by money and curators, exclusively. This is critical, as it was what the vanguards were fighting against for half a century.

The modernist idea of 'genius artist' was rightfully killed, but instead of going into the path of regarding legitimacy, making something genuine, as the ultimate goal of art and artists, paintings just became a means to push the burgueoise and politicians' agenda into people's throats. Money talks. Again. But this time, harder.

>>15323481
>The modernist idea of 'genius artist' was rightfully killed

Enlighten an artlet, why?

>>15323279
I broadly agree, but for the sake of fun.

a) the reason you rank architecture relatively highly is because what's seen is as immediate as what's heard. IF you wanted to do some sort of speed->emotion ranking, I'd bet that there's more you can do with a second-long glimpse of a picture than you can achieve with a second's worth of sound. i.e. what you write of music could also be said of painting as we also have instinctive emotional responses to art.

b) but that underlying system, although we could live without it, is the defining feature of our lives. Without language our capacity to think would be enormously reduced. We are constantly using language, and although an individual language is not universal, people who cannot use any language are alien and horrible, people without functional ears merely unfortunate.

>>15323279
>It's the most powerful at eliciting emotion
And why is drawing emotion your take on what makes a medium superior? arguably stupid cat videos draw more real emotion than classical symphonies do, for the typical person.

>Music, unlike literature, stands on its own; it isn't based on an arbitrary underlying system.
Music isn't really any less arbitrary, since music can be interpreted more arbitrarily than a descriptive paragraph in literature. A single musical composition can mean differing things to several people.

>>15322356
>Music, a derivative of language, cannot be placed above language, from which it came.
>Art that deals with language directly has more potential than music.
>t. another one who missed to read The Birth of Tragedy and Twilight of the Idols.

>>15323560
>And why is drawing emotion your take on what makes a medium superior? arguably stupid cat videos draw more real emotion than classical symphonies do, for the typical person.
To elaborate, the typical person isn't going to ordinarily be enthralled by mere music itself. They'll respond stronger to it in context with a film depicting serious themes in it. Cat videos have more of an impact these days.

What a silly thread

>except OP is right lol

>>15323499
Because it's a fake narrative. Art is just a byproduct of the times, artists aren't much more than vessels: you were never succesful because of your talent, but because you were legitimized by the ruling class, and you were just a piece to fit their narrative. The 'poor orphan adopted by a noble who's god-gifted' is as fake as a story can get. Most painters stole pieces, scammed people, copied works. Some even worked for patrons to receive pardons from crimes. The artist simply was the artisan capable of making the gem the rich and powerful wanted. The only preserved pieces, were the ones of interest of the nobility and the church.

It was around the 1800s when artists started to make art for the sake of art. Artist appeared as a creator of both ideas and narratives. Art started to be more than a craft and an object.

You have people like Repin, literally one of the top 5 classical painters in history, a man with worldwide fame, loved by the entirety of Russia, suddenly saying 'fuck this' and making a huge 2x2.5 meter painting of Ivan killing his son, to denounce the abuses of the Tsar against the people.

Then you have Cezanne or Monet, who autistically painted the same thing for years to see if there was more to the eye than what we saw. Goya from being a church favorite who painted impeccable servants for their nobles, to denouncing the horrors of war and the suffering people actually went through.

All of these permeated into the people for the first time. Pictures, museums, regional expos, started to show art to people -other than the ruling class- for the first time.

At this point artists started to realize they weren't just vessels, that images had power and knowledge much bigger than themselves. Vanguards went crazy on this. Now we're a couple steps back.

>>15322505
you have a brain disorder, literally. liking music is not voluntary

https://youtu.be/_r8OXJ5gSeg

>>15323590
>retarded marxist takes
>art that depicts banal boring politics is superior in virtue to masterworks of the renaissance
>great art from the past cant have powerful universal themes if it doesnt specifically pander to the lower class

youre stupid

>>15323608
Did you know that the entirety of western sculpture, renaissance onwards, is based on the incorrect belief that the greeks didn't paint their marble sculptures?

Universal themes. How to spot a /pol/ tourist.

Anachronistic takes on subjects they can't even scratch the surface of.

>>15323590
You're leaning pretty heavily into that Hauser-esque socio-economic determinism, huh?

>>15323644
who the fuck was talking only about sculpture idiot? i was talking about ART.

stupid marxists always try to shift the goalposts to somewhere up their ass.

>>15323644
He's right, you're the worst kind of marxist critic, the one who thinks he's waxing profound when he's regurgitating the simplified, half-understood takes of other marxist art critics who had a lot more nuanced view on art and what marxist critique means than you probably ever will. Socioeconomic determinism on the level that you propose is pretty much the reversed version of the "Great Men" historicism that you rail against so hard.

>>15322816
Except that it is true, at least in classical metaphysics. Art is a mimesis of natural systems, visually or otherwise, that is reappropriated by nature through man. It is always part of that history between the total presence of nature as origin of man and being in accordance with nature as his telos. The closest instrument of his to nature and the most human is the voice, that operates in proximity to thought and dialectics. This key metaphysical operation is the lynchpin of the function of art as it relates to the 'becoming' of man, and is governed by the logos. This is why visual art and the word often go hand-in-hand, whether it is 'ut pictura poesis', the Sister Arts theory, the practice of exphrasis, art theory and criticism, the application of metadata such as captions or titles, the prominence of history painting, etc. And both literary and visual arts are defined by their craft, which is the proper conduct of arrangement according to that governing metaphysics so that it follows the rules of effacement before the logos. The written and the painted are removed from the realm of speaking by falling into exteriority through the use of instruments and demarcation. They need to follow the rules to 'get back' appropriately, to be redeemed and reappropriated in the metaphysical operation.

With music this is not the case. It is unable to stay 'within itself' as the logocentric arts can, and is thus divorced from the key operation of art. Music theory has to be justified by philosophy in order to be meaningful. It is a misapplication of the term 'art', like 'martial arts' or the 'art of motorcycle repair' as it does not share the requirements of functioning in the economy of self-fulfilling man in a way that is metaphysically 'true' or within closer proximity to the logos. The craft of music is an organisation but it lacks that connection to the logos by its medium.

>>15322979
Music's precise and direct.

>>15323116
Ok Greenberg

>>15321563
>when you realize cinema is the superior art form
>when you also realize video games have the potential to be the best art form

>>15323692
>this is your brain on immersion

>>15323692
Film and games are both coming closer to the Gesamtkunstwerk, games theoretically overcoming the passive participation of film while also incorporating the visual, verbal and musical, and even possibilities of group participation in the way of theatre. But then they also show the problem with that ideal of art - that you end up with creation by committee, or else with dislocation between the elements of the work because your creative lynchpin isn't actually a master of them all.

>>15321563

Music is the most primal art form for certain
As such music will always be more capable of reaching the masses compared to other art forms
I don't think that makes it the best though

>>15323663
Instead of spouting the 'this is marxist therefore it's wrong' how about actually refuting my statements? My take is nietszchean, by the way.

>>15323651
You clearly have no grasp at what art is. Taking such irresponsibly uses of abstract concepts such as 'virtue,' 'masterwork' or 'universal themes' is not only ignorant, but pompous.

Art pieces in the renaissance were confined to rich mansions and castles, painters just painted for their patrons. What's universal about that?

Do you even know the themes treated during renaissance?

It wasn't until modernity that people even started to give a damn about the universe.

My example regarding renaissance sculpture is to point out the exact same thing you're doing in this thread. You're building your narrative of the history of art hrough an incorrect, anachronic and ignorant take on something that happened centuries ago. Yet you will push your narrative to the end, as it's more important to you than reality. Can't believe you'd be this dense.

>>15323754
>Instead of spouting the 'this is marxist therefore it's wrong' how about actually refuting my statements?

Learn to read. I just showed you why your subpar marxist take is embarrassing when compared to people who knew how to use marxist analysis well.

>My take is nietszchean, by the way.

Yeah, sure.

>>15323754
youre the one whose tight assed takes are anachronistic bozo. a universal work with deep themes and which has had centuries of critical elaboration since its inception cant be reduced to the limited historical window youre trying to force.

marxist, nietzschean, same shit

>>15323740

You're right about Gesamtkunstwerk. Wagner's Ring Cycle is clearly meant to be a film. (It has flying horses, a dragon and naked maidens swimming in a river for heaven's sake.) The trouble isn't the "creation by committee" thing *per se*, so much as the COST. Film is so expensive, it's getting harder and harder for an individual artist to make his voice heard.

>>15323784
>marxist, nietzschean, same shit
?

>a universal work with deep themes and which has had centuries of critical elaboration since its inception cant be reduced to the limited historical window
I'm saying that the 'universal meaning' you're giving to something, completely ignores the times it was born in. Art isn't just the photograph you take of something today.

And in no way I agree or disagree with the 'art genius' era. I just said that it started to die out during the 1800s, and it's true.

Don't you think I'd love to be regarded as a genius for doing a masterful painting? Yet it's not something that happens anymore. Painters and paintings are a different thing than they were 500 years ago.

>>15323776
I'm not arguing against the 'great men' historicism. I'm saying the way painters fit society 500 years ago is different than what we see them now, than what we see actual painters.

As I said I'm still studying and reading as much as I can, but I will not accept something as cynical as saying that painters like Repin, Goya, Monet, Cezanne, were 'banal boring politics'

I never said that art that didn't ponder to the lower class was worthless either. I did say that the lower class didn't have almost any contact with art until much later, which is a fact. Of course painters wouldn't make any paintings for them, that's what I said. Please make an honest effort to read.

>>15323776
Also, if you have any recommended reading, please direct me to it. If possible I'd rather avoid bugmen like Gombrich.

>>15323902
Hard Marxism : Arnold Hauser
Soft Marxism : Walter Benjamin
Non-denominational : "Art in Theory" series
Non-marxism : Spengler's Decline of the West
Schopenhauer and Nietzsche are always a good choice
Wilhelm Worringer's "Abstraction and Empathy"
Johannes Itten's "The Art of Color"
Paul Klee's lectures and diaries
Erwin Panofsky's works
Aby Warburg's works
Heinrich Wölfflin's works
Journals of Delacroix
John Ruskin's works

>>15323948
Thank you

>>15323749
More primal = more human

>>15323560
>A single musical composition can mean differing things to several people.
And that’s precisely why music is INHERENTLY more artistic than literature.

Adulthood is realising tranny porn is the ultimate art form.

>>15321829
this
music is a language

>>15321563
Actually video games is the highest art form

-You create a whole world from 0
-You are allowed to embody a character in the world created

Sorry I dont make the rules

>the only option is to combine it all

>>15325425
I mean the same can be said for a good book

>>15321585
I've had it with you soi-posters

day of the rope can't come quick enough

>>15323187
nice painting broseph

>>15321610
if the meaning of art is to carry a message, than I suppose that makes political manifestos and technical documents the highest forms of art

music is the lowest form of art. it's the art that appeals to the senses the most. now chants are a different thing though

>>15323279
>a) It's the most powerful at eliciting emotion.
that's precisely why music is the lowest form of art lol. imagine thinking art is about eliciting emotions and not conveying truths

>>15321563
music and literature are both top tier art forms.
i love music more, but its close.

>>15323590
>All of these permeated into the people for the first time. Pictures, museums, regional expos, started to show art to people -other than the ruling class- for the first time.
as if people had the need to 'consume' art. all this democratization of art only led it to becoming subject to the market and consumerism

>>15322968
>>15322947
idk man, primitive music is awful, yet they seem to like it. not all music has "bass" as an integral component of music. Examples: Renaissance counterpoint, Gregorian chant, a cappella music, etc.
Plus, eastern music has a theoretical background with microtones, but our Western ears find it out of tune because we aren't accustomed to it, not because we aren't educated. You should listen to Indian music a long time before finding it pleasurable

>>15322305
>>15322338
criminally underrated show

>>15327989
>not all music has "bass" as an integral component of music. Examples: Renaissance counterpoint, Gregorian chant, a cappella music, etc.
I don't think you know what bass is.

>>15323590
>you were never succesful because of your talent, but because you were legitimized by the ruling class, and you were just a piece to fit their narrative

rupi kaur comes to mind

>>15323692
>>when you also realize video games have the potential to be the best art form

>>15323740
>games are coming closer to the Gesamtkunstwerk, games theoretically overcoming the passive participation of film while also incorporating the visual, verbal and musical, and even possibilities of group participation in the way of theatre

>this is such amazing piece of art, truly Gesamtkunstwerk of our times!

don´t kid yourself please

>>15328268
Yes I do.
Renaissance counterpoint has a lot of music without bass, like Bicinias, compositions for two voices that can be of the same register (two sopranos) and will not have a bass, just two overlapping melodies. The concept of bass started to develop in baroque music with the birth of harmony

>>15328884
is film Gesamtkunstwerk? what would have Wagner thought if he was alive today?

>>15327604
Agreed.
You see this even more clearly with pop music.

>>15327604
Except all the art that is critical of the market and consumerism

>>15328856
They already are, but it has nothing to do with visual presentation, narrative, mechanics, interactivity or immersion. They are irrelevant to the function of art.

>>15321610
>The meaning of art is to carry a message.

No. No, no, no.

>>15322437
holy based making retards seethe

What's the Grand Inquisitor of music?

>>15328993
>is film Gesamtkunstwerk?

you can bet your ass it is

>>15329445
>They already are
Literally not a single video game holds the same value as a literary classic.

>>15329445
videogames are virtual toys, it appeals to the ADHD generation and if the game has a "story" its presented in the most gimmicky way,

>>15329728
That doesn't entirely mean it rules them out from the possibility. Video games have only been around for about 40 years and is moreover only really experienced by first world societies. Of course it's going to pale in comparison to the hundreds of years of literature we have that span the entire globe.

>>15321563
https://archive.org/details/verdiotl

>>15329728
Hidetaka Miyazaki's work is highly allegorical, like prophetic dreams.

>>15321563
This is true. Beethoven is the greatest composer, nay, the greatest human being that has ever lived and his 3rd symphony is the greatest piece of art ever created by humans.

>>15329767
By the time video game writers give a shit about actually deep writing it is more likely that a better version of video games as a medium will have emerged. At that point, why call them video games and not something like digital theater?

>>15323279
>The Japanese and Chinese took to Mozart like ducks to water.
Wrong, they took to it because the effects of westernization. It's like saying Christianity is more universal compared to other beliefs because many countries took to it, rather than the fact that Western powers penetrated deeply into their society.

>>15329795
>greatest piece of art ever created
>not his late quartets
pleb

>>15329767
Shut the fuck up gamer pseud.

>>15329728
Cultural value, no. Artistic value, yes.

>>15329795
You are my nigger in spirit. I could have said this very thing myself.

>>15329735
Not sure what this has to do with art.

>>15329797
>deep writing

Not the point.

>>15329923
yeah videogames shouldn´t be mentioned in this thread, we are speaking about art, not what people think what is art

>>15329932
Post successful!

>>15329936

Friendly reminder that God allowed the Protestant Reformation to happen so that he could limit Bach's power level through the lens of the simplified Protestant Hymns allowing for mere mortals to be able to understand and appreciate his music.
https://youtu.be/d1bBpIdyV0c

>>15329710
when will this meme die

>>15329917
Definitely not. The best video games are genre fiction tier.

>>15329984
Gesamtkunstwerk at its finest

>>15329992
This is like criticising a book for not being painted well.

>>15330000
i think /v/ is more up to your alley

>>15330000
If you're going to make the claim video games are art, then that means you are opening them to criticism, and frankly all video games have a garbage sense of aesthetics.

>>15330011
No because they don't know the first thing about video games as art either. /lit/ and /v/ are on the same level in this regard.

>>15330016
>/lit/ and /v/ are on the same level in this regard.

>>15329993
>plays random music over moving pictures
>"Wow, I'm literally Wagner"

>>15330014
Again, visual presentation, narrative, mechanics, interactivity or immersion have nothing to do with the art of video games.

>>15330024
Okay then what the fuck is it?

>>15321610
>The meaning of art is to carry a message
Stopped reading there

>>15330021
is arguably one of the most complex pieces of art of all time, no small feat, all in conjuction between images, sound, music, storytelling and much more

>>15330034
The programming obviously.

>>15330060
wow

>>15330048
wow epic

>>15330071
>>15330080
wow

>>15330048
didn't realise Kubrick was so fucking cringe desu

artists should just shut the fuck up and not bother trying to rationalise anything

>>15330048
>is arguably one of the most complex pieces of art of all time
No it isn't.