/lit/ - Literature

Discord is gay, no thank you

>>15249325
Nice

>>15249337
>And?

To start, I found the prose absolutely beautiful. People weren't lying when they said the first chapter was literal perfection. Especially the descriptions of man's love of water.

>>15249375
>water
that entire part was pure kino

>>15249375
The best part was ishmael sneaking in bits about himself like being a former teacher who got fired and is now forced to work as a deck hand

Some guy on the discord server said that the novel was about transcendentalism. The first time I got until chapter 30 and dropped it. But now, with the transcendental in mind, it finally clicked. The sermon about Jonas was fantastic.

>>15249645
Hmm, I'll have to keep it in mind. Personally, always saw the book as more paganistic, but to each their own. Thanks anon, that'll be an interesting perspective to read with.

>>15249498
Lol yeah, those parts were pretty funny. Surprising amount of humor so far, which I quite enjoy.

>>15249325
I'm joining for my 3rd read. I encourage any anons who are rereading to give Hubert Dreyfus' Moby-Dick lectures a listen, it has really enriched my understanding of Melville. I don't agree with everything he says but he opens up a lot of interesting related topics and interpretations about specific sections.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq5LDSZDr2E

What is it about the sexuality between Ishmael and Queequeg? Was Melville a fag and trying a jab at the church or a commentary about the lack of civilized morality in pagans?

>>15249862
Ishmael isn't gay, he's just a hopeless romantic who copes with his situation via romanticization(at least, that's what I've picked up so far)
Also it's a funny joke, if you read his short stories you'd know that melville loves his humor

>>15249325
15 chapters by Sunday the 3rd? how many pages is that?

>>15249930
In my edition it is 56/469

>>15249930
Chapters have like ~7 pages at most oorc

>>15249958
Iirc

>>15249930
It isn't much, just set aside a few hours one night and it's perfectly manageable

Anyone know what's up with the oil painting?

>>15249862
I think calling him (Melville or Ishmael) a homosexual is a simplification. Melville was a man of the sea, men at sea form close bonds because they have to, there are no women, they can hug and snuggle together and not be gay, and to a certain extent heterosexual men who are deprived of women and are in close proximity with each other will joke about things like personal intimacy. I liken it to the kinds of close brotherhood and intimacy you see in the modern military between young men who don't get to see a women for six months. A movie like Jarhead is a good example. Furthermore, women were rarely receiving the kind of education that men did during that time. Imagine what the average women must have seemed like to Melville. It would be like talking to an intellectual child, and even if there was a rare intelligent woman, it is highly unlikely she would have the opportunity to develop the intellectual interior life that Melville had. I think the only people Melville could really hope to connect with on an intellectual and spiritual level were other men, like Hawthorne for example. Looking at it in hindsight, people will think it's kinda gay, but I'd say it's a simplification. At most you could say he might have been bisexual, but there has been evidence in recent years that Melville had an extramarital affair with a neighbor in the Berkshires, and the whole basis of the homosexual idea is these scenes in Melville and some letters that seem vaguely homoerotic directed towards Hawthorne, but could just as easily be a difference in culture and the overzealous praise of a younger writer for his idol.

People watch Shirley Temple movies today and think it is pedophilic for her characters to develop a rapport with adult men, but closer to the truth was the fact that there were millions of out of work and emasculated american men who wanted their daughters and wives to admire them once again. Shirley's characters believed in them and thought they were the greatest, and empowered them to reclaim their lives. That is me going off on a tangent, but motivations behind certain actions really must be understood in their historical context.

bump for the best work of fiction in history

>>15249974
The White Whale is given a wide variety of symbolic meanings, and rarely do people agree on one thing. I think the painting is ambiguous purposefully because the theme of interpretation is central to the novel.

>>15249337
So is the book

>>15249337
The discord is just for organization. Discussions will take place here.

>>15250039
Why do we need to organize the posting of a thread? Surely a list of dates and a quick search of /mdg/ in the catalog is all that is needed.

>>15250059
I dont know man, just look for the thread on Sunday

>>15250003
That explains a lot. My closest group of friends used to make a lot of gay jokes at each other when we were younger, mostly because we were nerds with no prospects of getting women. I'm little less ashamed of that now, thanks.

>>15250059
The sense of community may keep you motivated. And it's not like you are forbidden to talk over there, I'm pretty sure no one is going to prevent you from sparking a discussion.

>>15249325
My thoughts on the etymology:

Firstly, I think Melville is engaging in some comedic self-parody. He was himself a teacher, though apparently not a very good one. He is a "pale Usher—threadbare in coat, heart, body, and brain; I see him now." I'm making my own guess but I think the late consumptive usher and the sub-sub librarian are likely all Ishmael at different times in his life, or at least meant to capture facets of Melville's fascination with whales and the business of whaling.
>a queer handkerchief, mockingly embellished with all the gay flags of all the known nations of the world
A dig at his reputation for being a travel-writer and adventurer on the south seas?
>“WHALE. * * * Sw. and Dan. hval. This animal is named from roundness or rolling; for in Dan. hvalt is arched or vaulted.” —Webster’s Dictionary.
>“WHALE. * * * It is more immediately from the Dut. and Ger. Wallen; A.S. Walw-ian, to roll, to wallow.” —Richardson’s Dictionary.
"Roundness and rolling," I feel has some significance. It makes me think of the section much later in the book where Ishmael describes how a whale can never truly be faithfully portrayed in art, because in the deep it cannot be seen, and outside of the water it loses its shape. Ineffability, unknowability, is a major theme in Moby-Dick I think, and this idea of rolling, turning, seems to me to have something to do with it. Hvalt, as in arched or vaulted, fits the massiveness of the animal, as in architecture. This makes me think of the later comparison in "Cetology" of the head of the whale to the dome of St. Peter's Basilica. The sperm whale, like St. Peter's, is a kind of wonder of the world, more than simply a ferocious beast, it is like a cathedral or a renowned landmark, like the pyramids or the colossus of rhodes.

Lastly, the various words for whale across languages imply the ubiquity of the whale as a spectre in the lives of men, not only in terms of geography (there is a name for the whale in english, the various languages of the pacific islands, in Danish, Hebrew, Icelandic and Spanish) but across time as well, in Latin, Greek, Hebrew, and Anglo-Saxon. The whale is a figure in the language of Homer, of Rome, of the Old Testament, and of bygone cultures now lost.

>>15250029
>tfw no subby Ishmael gf
Why even live bros

>>15250003
Good post, I think this is on the mark.
Still isn't gonna keep me from perversely enjoying the homoerotic moments though.

just finished my first read of this yesterday—i’m a rather new reader. though it gets a bit oblique and wordy at times, this book is still fucking amazing. i’m glad that some posters above mentioned how beautiful the prose is. i love the pervading darkness and mystique in the narrative, the tactile descriptions, and the physical and metaphysical action taking place. sentences like “It makes a stranger stare.” are such perfect interpretations of poetic cadence in prose, and just have so much feeling in them. i will read this again soon for sure

>>15249848
Based Dreyfus. Part of a series of 6 if I remember correctly, about the highlights of the western canon

>>15249972
>>15249958
>>15249952
Ok, I read the first 5 chapters. I didn't think it was going to be that funny. I'm in.

>>15250230
I agree 100%. Despite having just started, I know this is a book that I'm gonna reread for the rest of my life.

>>15249498
>being a former teacher
What!? I missed that entirely

>>15250322
I was pleasantly surprised by that too. The headhunter bit was pretty hilarious ngl

>>15250335
It's in chapter one, read closely into his description, it's pretty blatantly in there. Not that I can blame you tho, given how much is being said in those few pages.

>>15249325
>the virgin 19th novel: starts with a quote from antiquity or the bible before chapter 1
>the chad whaling encyclopedia novel: etymology of the titular word from 3 different dictionaries, translated into 13 languages, + 80 quotes.

From Chapter 111, “The Pacific”
“And meet it is, that over these sea-pastures, wide-rolling watery prairies and Potters’ Fields of all four continents, the waves should rise and fall, and ebb and flow unceasingly; for here, millions of mixed shades and shadows, drowned dreams, somnambulisms, reveries, all that we call lives and souls, lie dreaming, dreaming, still; tossing like slumberers in their beds; the ever-rolling waves but made so by their restlessness.”

>>15250416
To me, this section rivals Prospero's soliloquy at the end of the Tempest. Fucking rare that anyone can rival shakespeare even for a second.

>>15250352
You mean the part where he comments about one needing the stoics fo bear going from schoolmaster to sailor? When I first read it I took it for a random comparison, but now I can't unsee it. Specially because it's not the only reference to teaching in the chapter.
Damn

New general coat of arms, made in five minutes in MS Paint

I was gonna read this after I finished Ulysses and the class I’m taking on it, but looks like I’ll get to it early and join these threads

>>15250680
Nice anon, you got this

>>15249325
>DISCORD
and the whole thing is tainted. This place is a discussion forum, the fact you thought a discord necessary sours the whole thing

>>15250180
Continuing into the extracts, they begin with Genesis, "And God created great whales" and they end with texts contemporaneous to the publication of Moby-Dick. The whale is known in all tongues, in all eras, indefinite and unknown, like God. It has been there since the beginning of creation, a watery brother, yet man barely knows it.

>“In the year 1690 some persons were on a high hill observing the whales spouting and sporting with each other, when one observed: there—pointing to the sea—is a green pasture where our children’s grand-children will go for bread.” —Obed Macy’s History of Nantucket.
This extract speaks to that importance of whaling economically, and in a prophetic way. Nantucket, the hub of a booming 19th century product that people used in their homes and in various products. Could it draw a comparison to the Eucharist with the bread imagery as well?

I may post more thoughts about specific extracts, but I think the major point is a preparation and legitimization of the subject. Whales do not have to be the subject of lowbrow adventure tales. They have been subjects of great poetry, history, science, and holy scripture.

>>15250029
this but unironically, if anyone doubts me wait till you read the "nightgown" or "a bosom friend"

>>15250826
I'm not going to join the discord since the discussions are here. Shouldn't be a problem, I imagine most will be like me.

>>15250826
I politely disagree

>>15249325
Are audiobooks allowed?

>>15250846
There's nothing gay in the friendship between men. This stoicism (in the colloquial sense of the world) where men are not supposed to emote, aside from maybe manky anger and distaste is completely retarded.

>>15250837
Great point. Hell, from the Leviathan to Cetus, whales seem to be a personification of the awesome might of nature, an archetype that mythology of the past attributed to the force of gods. After all, there is something quite Godly about whales: secretive, peaceful, and awe-inspiring, yet fully capable of obliterating anything at the slightest whim.

>>15250862
I mean, nobody would stop you.

Will there be one of these for the month of June, with a different book?

>>15250865
>With much interest I sat watching him. Savage though he was, and hideously marred about the face—at least to my taste—his countenance yet had a something in it which was by no means disagreeable. You cannot hide the soul. Through all his unearthly tattooings, I thought I saw the traces of a simple honest heart; and in his large, deep eyes, fiery black and bold, there seemed tokens of a spirit that would dare a thousand devils. And besides all this, there was a certain lofty bearing about the Pagan, which even his uncouthness could not altogether maim. He looked like a man who had never cringed and never had had a creditor. Whether it was, too, that his head being shaved, his forehead was drawn out in freer and brighter relief, and looked more expansive than it otherwise would, this I will not venture to decide; but certain it was his head was phrenologically an excellent one. It may seem ridiculous, but it reminded me of General Washington’s head, as seen in the popular busts of him. It had the same long regularly graded retreating slope from above the brows, which were likewise very projecting, like two long promontories thickly wooded on top. Queequeg was George Washington cannibalistically developed.
spending this much time thinking about how handsome a man is is not friendship, it is gay. Melville is gay.

>>15250909
I don't agree. He could be gay, he could be bi, he could be straight. His description of a character in a novel doesn't mean really anything

>>15250909
Nope. Unless you think people can be gay by admiring the statues and paintings of the great masters, which also depicted the glory of the human body. Beauty is not inherently sexualized, even if modern culture does confound the two

>>15250927
>>15250933
from "redburn"
>It was the day following my Sunday stroll into the country, and when I had been in England four weeks or more, that I made the acquaintance of a handsome, accomplished, but unfortunate youth, young Harry Bolton. He was one of those small, but perfectly formed beings, with curling hair, and silken muscles, who seem to have been born in cocoons. His complexion was a mantling brunette, feminine as a girl's; his feet were small; his hands were white; and his eyes were large, black, and womanly; and, poetry aside, his voice was as the sound of a harp.

>>15250837
1/3
Jumping ahead I want to bring up the title of chapter 1 before I forget, and then I'll go back to the extracts if I find anything else there.

This is the first time I've noticed this, never really paying a ton of attention to the chapter titles (which I think was a mistake considering the opaque titles of latter chapters in the novel like "The Symphony").

"Loomings" is likely a double meaning (or more). We have the loomings like looming figures, shadows looming ominously ahead on the path of this story. Elijah and such. This is how I always considered the title. But could it not also connotate the loom, the tool used to weave? There are many instances of weaving in the canon, or as a metaphor for storytelling itself, from Penelope and her funeral shroud to Scheherazade and her endless stories weaved seamlessly one into another in order to save her life, stories within stories, stories within stories within stories, asides that become stories, like the weaving of a vast tapestry. Melville even has a bit of something like this metafiction, the elaborate stories within stories in Moby-Dick, prime example being "The Town-Ho's Story." Melville is beginning his own "Loomings," weaving his own infinite tapestry, yet shadows of fate and a watery hellship "loom" ahead (as fate is mentioned many times later in chapter 1).

>>15250885
Nicely said. I believe I remember a section that says something about, if ever a beast were to replace Jove, only the whale could withstand his throne.

>>15249325
Should I read Moby Dick in one go or space it out?

>>15251048
2/3
With Melville's Calvinist background (by way of a highly religious mother and a history of ministers on his father’s side, though his father was not notably fervent), Another major dichotomous theme worth paying attention to is free-will&fate. Sometimes Ishmael is choosing (or seems to) his fate, other times he feels it has been set out for him since time immemorial (as with the ““Grand Contested Election for the Presidency of the United States. “WHALING VOYAGE BY ONE ISHMAEL. “BLOODY BATTLE IN AFFGHANISTAN.”” in this chapter).

Further, the imagery of the loom and of weaving is present in other sections of the novel.

>I was the attendant or page of Queequeg, while busy at the mat. As I kept passing and repassing the filling or woof of marline between the long yarns of the warp, using my own hand for the shuttle, and as Queequeg, standing sideways, ever and anon slid his heavy oaken sword between the threads, and idly looking off upon the water, carelessly and unthinkingly drove home every yarn: I say so strange a dreaminess did there then reign all over the ship and all over the sea, only broken by the intermitting dull sound of the sword, that it seemed as if this were the Loom of Time, and I myself were a shuttle mechanically weaving and weaving away at the Fates. There lay the fixed threads of the warp subject to but one single, ever returning, unchanging vibration, and that vibration merely enough to admit of the crosswise interblending of other threads with its own. This warp seemed necessity; and here, thought I, with my own hand I ply my own shuttle and weave my own destiny into these unalterable threads.
- from 47: The Mat-Maker

>>15251071
3/3
>But it so happened, that those boats, without seeing Pip, suddenly spying whales close to them on one side, turned, and gave chase; and Stubb’s boat was now so far away, and he and all his crew so intent upon his fish, that Pip’s ringed horizon began to expand around him miserably. By the merest chance the ship itself at last rescued him; but from that hour the little negro went about the deck an idiot; such, at least, they said he was. The sea had jeeringly kept his finite body up, but drowned the infinite of his soul. Not drowned entirely, though. Rather carried down alive to wondrous depths, where strange shapes of the unwarped primal world glided to and fro before his passive eyes; and the miser-merman, Wisdom, revealed his hoarded heaps; and among the joyous, heartless, ever-juvenile eternities, Pip saw the multitudinous, God-omnipresent, coral insects, that out of the firmament of waters heaved the colossal orbs. He saw God’s foot upon the treadle of the loom, and spoke it; and therefore his shipmates called him mad. So man’s insanity is heaven’s sense; and wandering from all mortal reason, man comes at last to that celestial thought, which, to reason, is absurd and frantic; and weal or woe, feels then uncompromised, indifferent as his God.
- from 93: The Castaway

>It was a wondrous sight. The wood was green as mosses of the Icy Glen; the trees stood high and haughty, feeling their living sap; the industrious earth beneath was as a weaver’s loom, with a gorgeous carpet on it, whereof the ground-vine tendrils formed the warp and woof, and the living flowers the figures. All the trees, with all their laden branches; all the shrubs, and ferns, and grasses; the message-carrying air; all these unceasingly were active. Through the lacings of the leaves, the great sun seemed a flying shuttle weaving the unwearied verdure. Oh, busy weaver! unseen weaver!—pause!—one word!—whither flows the fabric? what palace may it deck? wherefore all these ceaseless toilings? Speak, weaver!—stay thy hand!—but one single word with thee! Nay—the shuttle flies—the figures float from forth the loom; the freshet-rushing carpet for ever slides away. The weaver-god, he weaves; and by that weaving is he deafened, that he hears no mortal voice; and by that humming, we, too, who look on the loom are deafened; and only when we escape it shall we hear the thousand voices that speak through it. For even so it is in all material factories. The spoken words that are inaudible among the flying spindles; those same words are plainly heard without the walls, bursting from the opened casements. Thereby have villainies been detected. Ah, mortal! then, be heedful; for so, in all this din of the great world’s loom, thy subtlest thinkings may be overheard afar.
- from 102: A Bower in the Arsacides

And that's mainly just on the title of chapter 1. I have things to say about "Call me Ishmael," as well.

>>15249325
Why? I could only read a few pages of that book, I can't see how anyone can appreciate the style.
I love Dostoevsky and many other /lit/ authors do that's not the problem.

>>15251081
the introduction to the extracts ends
>For by how much the more pains ye take to please the world, by so much the more shall ye for ever go thankless! Would that I could clear out Hampton Court and the Tuileries for ye! But gulp down your tears and hie aloft to the royal-mast with your hearts; for your friends who have gone before are clearing out the seven-storied heavens, and making refugees of long-pampered Gabriel, Michael, and Raphael, against your coming. Here ye strike but splintered hearts together—there, ye shall strike unsplinterable glasses!
and it made me think of a quote from one of his letters to Hawthorne,
>Though I wrote the Gospels in this century, I should die in the gutter.
It seems he already felt that Moby-Dick would not get its due in his lifetime. Even before the book begins, "For by how much the more pains ye take to please the world, by so much the more shall ye for ever go thankless!"

>>15249325
fuck me i really want to participate in this but I dont have a copy :( ordered one online but it is still shipping on its way to me

is there anywhere online I can read the base novel for free? It's within the public domain by now no?

>>15251511
You can find the text on Gutenberg.org or listen here: https://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/42/moby-dick/

>>15251511
Yes, pdf are readily available everywhere, for example here
https://b-ok.cc/

is the norton critical edition based or cringe? Its nice to have all the references explained but does feel like it is very midwit tier
last thread someone had a list of biblical references mentioned in the book, anyone got that?

>>15250955
There's nothing overtly sexual about that

Fuck I really wanna join in with this but I'm about to start two other books for my classes

>>15251100
You have no sense of good prose

>>15251100
what the fuck do you mean why? it's one of the greatest pieces of literature so why wouldn't a group of people want to eventually start a reading of it? You sound close minded and retarded. I think Dosto is great, but the prose in Moby Dick is substantially more beautiful and expansive. Fuck you

>>15251071
My interpretation on free will vs fate is this: the only person on board the Pequod who actually has free will is Ahab. As the captain, he has an almost godlike presence on board; not just in his demeanor but also in what powers a captain has, ie choosing course and administering punishment.

Ishmael is a good foil to Ahab because hes almost entirely thrown to Fate, rather than free will, because as his paygrade shows, hes pretty low on the totem pole.

Starbuck illustrates the point im trying to make pretty well. As ahabs second in command, he has an intersting nexus between free will (wanting to see his wife and kids again) and fate (following ahab in his madmans crusade.) This is most clearly shown in the scene where he contemplates shooting ahab.

Moby Dick represents absolute Free Will. He does what he pleases. And for that reason, he and Ahab are locked in a permanent death struggle that cannot be sated until one of them is dead.

>>15251511
It's legally free, there's multiple sites that have it just because.
Like Power Dick: http://www.powermobydick.com/
Or any online ebook source really.

>>15252172
I find it a bit tedious, especially since a lot of the earlier footnotes are dumb, i.e. I remember them writing a paragraph about Ishmael sounding his pocket for money, and it damn near ruined that sentence forever the way they overanaylzed how clever his use of sounded was. Like yes it's nice writing, I liked it to, but you didn't need to gush about it so much.
Some of the later notes are good though, but personally I would just read a "naked" copy first time, I've read it twice and you really don't need anything annotated, unless you have no idea what a boat is and are unwilling to look up basic nautical terms.

Is there going to be a test?

Got enough on my plate between work and fight club, I'll join you guys some other time.

tfw I left for uni city and leflt my book at home ree
I will be able to on next sunday but I wont probably read 45 chapters in 2 days

>In what census of living creatures,the dead of makind are included; why it is that a universal proverb says of them, that they tell no tales, though containing more secrets than Goodwin Sands; how is it that to his name who yesterday departed for the other world, we prefix so significant and infodel a word, and yet do entitle him, if he but embarks for the remotest Indies of the living earth; why the Life Insurance Companies pay death-forfeitures upon immortals; in what eternal, unstirring paralysis, and deadly, hopeless trance, yet lies antique Adam who died sixty round centuries ago, strive to hush all the dead; wherefore but the rumor of a knocking in a tomb will terrify a whole city. All these things are not with out meanings.
Fucking beautiful

The stylistic choice melville took with the chapters is really quite intriguing, the shorter form and using them to cut up episodes into little scenes gives it a unique sort of fluidity. It reminds me of the newspaper chapter in ulysses

>>15251100
How? The prose is absolutely amazing, every sentence is beautifully crafted.

For those who need or want it, here is an excellent reading...
https://archive.org/details/moby_dick_librivox

>>15252885
lmao

>>15249498
This is my first read-through, and so when I saw the schoolmaster thing I thought that's what he did before but wasn't sure. I'm thoroughly enjoying it though, especially Queequeg.

>>15249930
i thought we had to read the first 15 chapters by today. My edition it was 75 pages

>>15249325
Im in, no discord crap though.

>stares at the painting for who knows how long wondering what the fuck it is and what type of hack could have made it
>someone opens a window to let light in
>realizes it was a whale and tries to pass it off as if he knew the entire time
Fucking ishmael

I'm pissed, you guys. I was read 130 pages of Moby Dick last night, but I haven't been able to continue today because my downstairs neighbor is listening to Latino club music on full blast. My ears are ringing, my walls are reverberating. I've never felt so emasculated

>>15254405
Befriend them

>>15249498
>>15250352
>>15250335
I missed that too. I thought it was just a comparison although each paragraph is pretty thick with meanings and content. I read it once and felt i missed a lot.

>>15254405

Bummer. You might want to invest in a good set of earplugs... I use Hearos.
https://www.hearos.com/

Having just read to chapter ten, I was absolutely enamored with the beautiful sermon about Jonah. That was simply amazing, in both content and style.

>>15253298
Yeah, that entire chapter was pure poetry, but that excerpt deeply moved me.

>>15254316
Lmao what a lad. Also loved when he walked into the black church

>>15255698
Melville has a talent for rhetoric, the entire book is built for oration. Recite the sermon outloud and you'll love it even more

>>15250909
You are a spiritual coomer.

>>15257611
I'll try that, thanks anon.

>>15257611
Just tried it, spent the last thirty minutes yelling in my backyard about Jonah. Was absolutely liberating.

just got through the first 15 pages, definitely not the biggest fan of stream of consciousness sort of writing, but Ishmael seems like a very relatable character so far

>>15258332
anon this isn't stream of consciousness writing

>>15249325
why would I read Moby Dick if I haven't read the rest of the western canon in order to understand it?

>>15251070
It's not a short book. It's obviously designed not to be read in one go either, considering there's like 180 chapters because they are all each very short, generally.

>>15258469
because you dont have autism :)

>>15258469
If you know the Bible and the historical context of the time, you should be fine

>>15258464
how is it not? it is ishmael's conscience presented as a constant stream?

>>15258535
it isn't that at all

>>15258535
Read joyce

>>15258569
>>15258653
neither of those refute my argument

>>15258535
>Once upon a time and a very good time it was there was a moocow coming down along the road and this moocow that was coming down along the road met a nicens little boy named baby tuckoo. . . . His father told him that story: his father looked at him through a glass: he had a hairy face. He was a baby tuckoo. The moocow came down the road where Betty Byrne lived: she sold lemon platt.
>O, the wild rose blossoms On the little green place.
>He sang that song. That was his song. O, the green wothe botheth.
>When you wet the bed first it is warm then it gets cold. His mother put on the oilsheet. That had the queer smell.
That's stream of consciousness

>>15258653
>>15258569

just because it isn't gobbedygok doesn't mean it isn't the case that the book (so far) has been only from his perspective and clearly his extemporaneous narration of the story. I understand that stream of consciousness has a technical definition, I'm not invoking that when I said it was a sort of consciousness stream

>>15258671
First person isn't SoC retard. SoC delibretly tries to mimick organic thought patterns i.e.>>15258678

Reminder that this will fall apart in less than a week

>>15258469
because its a story lol

>>15258682
Anon that's called first person perspective

>>15258690
I will put this thread on my muhfuggin back bro. I've already read it twice before and I've decided I'm reading it again whether anyone else does or not.

>>15258696
lol well then its that that I am not a big fan of, although I do dig ishmael especially that first chapter

>>15258709
I'm with you too, had to take a break from the main series I'm reading right now on account of all the bookstores being closed

>>15258713
Anon how do you not know what first person is
Have you seriously never read a book in first person?

>I began to feel suspicious of this “dark complexioned” harpooneer. At any rate, I made up my mind that if it so turned out that we should sleep together, he must undress and get into bed before I did.
OH NO NO NO

>>15258682
Stream of consciousness is usually a grounding in the momentariness of experience. This is what happens in Portrait of the Artist with the writing style beginning like the thoughts of a child and progressing as he grows up into a more advanced writing style. Same thing with Virginia Woolf writing the Waves in the present tense capturing the subjective and scattershot sensory experience of the characters. Same with the end of A Farewell to Arms when Frederic Henry is in the hospital while Catherine has the baby and his thoughts are racing in fear.

Moby-Dick isn't grounded in momentary experience though. The first page says, "Some years ago..."

There are two Ishmaels. The one who is living out the plot of Moby-Dick and the one who is telling the story of a whaling voyage he took long ago. Actually, there are arguably 3 Ishmaels but the 3rd only appears briefly in the last quarter of the book.

>>15258723
I only started really reading fiction recently and I've always used the term SoC to describe first person perspective

>>15258737
it pops up a lot in Farewell to Arms

>>15258744
You're right that's not the only place in the book, but it's one I remember well.

>>15258737
quite thank you for the explanation handsome benjamin, I know I'm outclassed when it comes to any sort of literary understanding

>chapter 3

>So soon as I hear that such or such a man gives himself out for a philosopher, I conclude that, like the dyspeptic old woman, he must have “broken his digester.”
/lit/ btfo

is there a calendar for the reading?

>>15258902
also, we have a specific edition or i can pick anything?

>>15258888
I-Ishmael is a retard anyways...

>>15258902
>>15258926
any edition. doesnt matter.

>>15258986
T.hanks

>>15258986
>splitting it into groups of 15 chapters instead of by thematic strands
want to know how I can tell whoever made this never read moby dick before?

>>15259085
yeah the idea is people who havent read it get a chance to read it and discuss

>Black Skinned person can do no wrong and is the only person to save the guy
Is this woke?

>>15258734
Ishamel be getting BLACKED

>>15259085
is it true that the book turns into wikipedia about whaling? not looking forward to that

>>15259123
it's one of the most pivotal parts of the book thematically. not to mention its interesting. anyway you're already filtered.

>>15259102
Queequeg is a pacific islander retard

Has anyone read read his journals? I think they show a lot of his influences going into Moby Dick like meeting a philosophy professor who was German on a boat.

>I forgot to mention, that last night about 9 1/2 P.M. Adler and Taylor came into my room, & it was proposed to have whiskey punches, which we did have, accordingly. We had an extraordinary time & did not break up till after two in the morning. We talked metaphysics continually, & Hegel, Schlegel, Kant etc were discussed under the influence of whiskey.

>>15259149
Big BLACK Samoan dick

>>15259091
you misunderstand me
>>15259123
honestly, the parts only about the whales are some of the most enjoyable

>>15259176
Why nust you nake everything about the black man's phalus

Remember first time anons, don’t quit when the book takes a turn towards the encyclopedia-esque. The book is rewarding to those who really delve into and finish it.
>>15249862
You’ll get a better understanding of the relationship between whalers further into the book, it’s not gay in the way you think it is. The scene at the inn can also be taken as a 19th century “no homo” or “couple dudes sleeping in a bed together because they’re mainly bros and totally not gay” joke.

>>15259164
Nah, the only thing I know about Melville is his poetry (which I found quite underrated) and his personal views, such as his staunch anti-imperialism.

>>15249325
The start of the novel feels like the beginning of a typical swashbuckling adventure story, but around page 130 it starts to turn into something else. Even the characters feel like they were originally pastiches that became something deeper as he explored his subject and placed Shakespearian soliloquies in their mouths. I feel like the chapters where he's describing the minutiae of whaling while using the objects as epistemological metaphors are the ones that feel the most like he's fusing the two concepts. I found myself savouring all of the "scenes" and reading his descriptive chapters like philosophical essays, or meditative exercises in brilliant prose. I've only read it once though and it was last month, so my understanding of the book's probably superficial.

I'd also recommend an online resource or an annotated edition as there's dozens of literary/historical references in every chapter.

>>15259413
>page 130
slow down anon, you are a week ahead

>>15250003
wtf im gay now

>>15259460
I've already read it, I just like talking about moby dick

>>15259476
me too but you spoil it for the others!

>>15259483
I didn't spoil anything

I think calling him (Melville or Ishmael) a homosexual is a simplification. Melville was a man of the sea, men at sea form close sexual bonds because they have to, there are no women, they can hug and snuggle and get off together and not be gay, and to a certain extent heterosexual men who are deprived of women and are in close proximity with each other will joke about things like personal intimacy and how straight it is to suck each other. I liken it to the kinds of close brotherhood and intimacy you see in the modern military between young men who don't get to see a women for six months and need holes to fuck. A movie like Straight Man Seduced by Gay Roomate is a good example. Furthermore, women were rarely receiving the kind of education that men did during that time. Imagine what the average women must have seemed like to Melville. It would be like talking to an intellectual child, and even if there was a rare intelligent woman, it is highly unlikely she would have the opportunity to develop the intellectual interior life that Melville had. I think the only people Melville could really hope to connect with on an intellectual and sexual level were other men, like Hawthorne for example. Looking at it in hindsight, people will think it's kinda gay, but I'd say it's a simplification. At most you could say he might have been bisexual, but there has been evidence in recent years that Melville had an extramarital affair with a neighbor in the Berkshires, and the whole basis of the homosexual idea is these scenes in Melville and some letters that seem vaguely homoerotic directed towards Hawthorne, but could just as easily be a difference in culture and the overzealous praise of a hot young piece of ass.

People watch Shirley Temple movies today and think it is pedophilic for her characters to develop a rapport with adult men, but closer to the truth was the fact that there were millions of out of work and emasculated american men who wanted their daughters and wives to admire them once again. Shirley's characters believed in them and thought they were the greatest, and empowered them to reclaim their lives. That is me going off on a tangent, but motivations behind certain actions really must be understood in their historical context.

>>15259506

>>15249325

Sorta wanted to do it but I have other projects which control, I wish the project well.

>>15250846

NO ONE MANHANDLES THE BOSOM CHUM OF QUEEQUEG! Hark to the tale of Queequeg, and the boy he loved so dear! They remained the best of friends for years and years and years!

Ishmael wasn't gay. When a mafugking ubernigger shares his bed with you, you don't complain, you make the best of the situation.

It's a parallel for racism back then, at first people are alienated for having to go at it together with people they don't share anything with, but later on cooperation with completely different people might feel kinda nice, especially when tackling difficult situations.

Rhe dialogue is a lot better than the stuff he showed off in piazza tales

How the FUCK is queequeg's dialogue suppossed to sound

>>15249325
>discord
Cringe I thought we were just discussing it in these generals

>>15249930
It’s like 100 pages or so, easily readable in just a day

>>15261482
Like the video jester from who killed captain Alex

>>15249862
They aren’t actually gay but the closeness between the savage and the American is meant to express Ishmael’s willingness to explore new and varied perspectives on the world/universe/God
>>15259102
Pacific Islanders aren’t black

>>15253590
It's overwritten. Melville is showing off and listening to himself. It's all form, no content - a parody of literature.

>>15261598
Anon, melville is actually rather brief for his era
You haven't read much pre-modernist prose, have you

How do you like my copy?

>>15261748
it is silly of course, but I like it

>>15261748
Where's the hyphen

>phrenology
was melville a racist?

Is there any hidden significance to the epitaphs in the church?

>>15262423
I did never pay so much attention to them, but looking at them now, there are a few things perhaps. in the order they are presented, there is an increasing of severity (overboard, towed away by the whale, and killed by the whale) which reminds me of how each ship they meet is closer to the whale than the last. but maybe more important, is maybe they predict the ends of the characters. ismaël as talbot, who is lost overboard (except of course ismaël survives). the crew as the same, who are taken away by the whale (through the whirlpool it carries). and ahab as ezekiel, who is killed by the whale direct. I think I reach too far

>>15250955
nothing wrong with admiring the local fembois

Queequeg best girl, prove me wrong.

>>15261742

>Anon, melville is actually rather brief for his era
>You haven't read much pre-modernist prose, have you

That might be the case for American contemporaries of Melville - I indeed don't know much about that. European literature from that era and from before, though, is usually much more concise. But this is not just about concision. The main problem with Melville is he doesn't have much to say.

>>15249325
What is amazing to me about Moby-Dick is that Melville balances style and substance. He has just as much to say as a "substance over style" writer like Dostoevsky, yet he stands toe-to-toe with the greatest aestheticists of the novel like Joyce and Nabokov.

>>15262859
>The main problem with Melville is he doesn't have much to say.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA LOOK AT THIS DUDE HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>15251214
CHAPTER 1: LOOMINGS

Firstly, Ishmael is a wanderer. "Call me," denotes Ishmael as an alias, and this alias gives us a clue to how the protagonist of Moby-Dick defines himself. He is a wanderer, cast out from life, as the biblical Ishmael was by his father. He is the orphaned child. Yet, Ishmael was a formidable figure. From him 12 tribes were also born, just like the 12 which came from Isaac's son Jacob. Ishmael is someone passed over by God, as the protagonist of Moby-Dick may feel. Melville's father died when he was 12 or 13, and he dropped out of formal education at the point, educating himself by joining a local intellectual society and borrowing books from their collection voraciously (see "Duykinck"). Both Ishmaels make their own way. The Biblical one becomes a desert chieftain and formidable archer. MD Ishmael will go to sea. There is something to be said about Ishmael's being ruled by his moods and the depressive qualities in him. Moby-Dick precedes Existentialism but I think a comparison and contrast of his worldview and the one explored by the existentialist writers of the 20th century would prove interesting.

>“Surely all this is not without meaning. And still deeper the meaning of that story of Narcissus, who because he could not grasp the tormenting, mild image he saw in the fountain, plunged into it and was drowned. But that same image, we ourselves see in all rivers and oceans. It is the image of the ungraspable phantom of life; and this is the key to it all.”
There is such a tidal wave of depth in this novel that it is near impossible to catch everything the first time.
>"Surely all this is not without meaning"
>"This is the key to it all"
This succinctly prepares the reader for what is to come. Some sort of obsession which destroys if one focuses too much on it. Like Narcissus in the mythic tale, Ahab will have an obsession which will destroy him, and Ishmael is witness to it. In 132 Ahab will have a scene where he stares into the depths of the sea, attempting to pierce it with his gaze while he contemplates giving up the chase (helped along by Starbuck's convincing) and returning to his wife and child in Nantucket.

Others may also speculate on the parallel between Ahab and Narcissus, is Ahab's pursuit of the whale somehow a pursuit of something within himself (as Narcissus falling in love with his own reflection). I find this passage interesting because to me Ahab seems much more dignified than Narcissus. There is a sense that Ahab's pursuit is not really a pursuit for himself and the avenging of his wounded pride, but really a mission he takes on behalf of all humanity (with all that the whale comes to symbolize to him).

>>15249375
Seconding this. It made me depressed as fuck, because I'll never love anything as much as Ishmael does sailing.

>>15249325
What do you guys think about the inversion of Greek/Homeric/Platonic ideas of light and illumination equaling goodness in Moby-Dick. To me, it is obvious Melville had a deep understanding of Plato and was very familiar with all of the dialogues. I believe he agrees with Plato on many fronts (his favorite dialogue was the Phaedo apparently) but I also think he has a few quibbles with Platonic philosophy, and I'd like to figure out what they are. This is the first example, though I believe there are other times in the novel were darkness is defined as something like "the proper element of a man's essence," as it is here.

>Because no man can ever feel his own identity aright except his eyes be closed; as if darkness were indeed the proper element of our essences, though light be more congenial to our clayey part. Upon opening my eyes then, and coming out of my own pleasant and self-created darkness into the imposed and coarse outer gloom of the unilluminated twelve-o’clock-at-night, I experienced a disagreeable revulsion. Nor did I at all object to the hint from Queequeg that perhaps it were best to strike a light, seeing that we were so wide awake; and besides he felt a strong desire to have a few quiet puffs from his Tomahawk.
- from Chapter 11: The Nightgown

>>15262859
>The main problem with Melville is he doesn't have much to say.
Pffffffffft hahahahhahahahahahahaha one of the main critiques of melville's works is that he has too much to say and is in fact too philosophical, he sets things up that flies over people's heads all the time

>as queequeg undressed in the flickering candlelight, i saw that he had a Moby Dick
BRAVO

>>15263283
I wish I was not so attached to my material things so I could leave for the sea like ishmaël

>>15262859
>The main problem with Melville is he doesn't have much to say
The entire novel is absolutely stuffed with critiques of imperialism, Biblical allegory, moral treatises on faith and race, historical references, etc. Have you even read a single sentence of the book?

>>15263303
Hmm, intresting. You could argue hints of that dichotomy exists within ishmael and queequeg, the gentle moor and the mal-tempered american

>>15262859
You’re not as smart as you think, anon

>>15262859
Why does it always boil down to America vs Europe with you faggots. Jesus christ just go back to /int/

I am grateful to whoever decided to meme this reading challenge onto this site. Moby Dick is comfy so far, and it feels like something I'm going to want to revisit later. Very romantic (in the idealistic sense), and it feels like an adventure so far.

> . . . For there is no quality in this world that is not what it is merely by contrast. Nothing exists in itself.
Was Melville ever acquainted with Eastern philosophy? Because this verse is quite literally the second chapter of the Tao Te Ching. Hell, judging by how Melville praises flexibility and accommodating the flow of life, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he was acquainted with Taoism.

>So full of this reeling scene were we, as we stood by the plunging bowsprit, that for some time we did not notice the jeering glances of the passengers, a lubber-like assembly, who marvelled that two fellow beings should be so companionable; as though a white man were anything more dignified than a whitewashed negro.
unironically one of the best takes on race i've ever seen

>when Ishmael thought "clam or cod" meant he would have to share a single raw clam with Queequeg
Goddamn this novel is way funnier than it has any right to be.

>>15263461
He may have gotten it by way of Heraclitus and Schopenhauer, two very taoist-esque western philosophers who he liked.

Also, Chapter 23: "The Lee-Shore" might be of interest to you, I see Taoist ideas in it

>>15263470
This 100%. Considering this was a time where slavery was still largely accepted and America was conquering "lesser Natives", the novel is pretty amazing in how egalitarian and anti-colonial it is.

>>15263498
all the pre-voyage chapters with Queequeg and Ishmael wandering around are funny as hell

>>15263511
Oh wow, that makes a lot of sense now. With that in mind, you can see a lot of Schopenhauer influence, especially in his discussion of essences. Thanks anon, this is quite illuminating.

>And thus have these naked Nantucketers, these sea hermits, issuing from their ant-hill in the sea, overrun and conquered the watery world like so many Alexanders; parcelling out among them the Atlantic, Pacific, and Indian oceans, as the three pirate powers did Poland. Let America add Mexico to Texas, and pile Cuba upon Canada; let the English overswarm all India, and hang out their blazing banner from the sun; two thirds of this terraqueous globe are the Nantucketer’s.

>>15263558
god i love when he gets into raving about something like this. you can feel it deep within you even when you didn’t care at all before about whatever it is

>>15263558
It's amazing how you can pull out practically any chapter in the novel and you will find some of the most beautiful prose in the english language. It's consistently amazing for ~600 pages straight.

>>15263558
of course this passage is beautiful on the surface, but for the content itself, I wonder. of course there are other seaports. I assume nantucket (and this area) was the largest of the américain ports for whaling, but was it for other fishing too? and what of whaling ports in the rest of the world? was there any to compare?

>>15250003
>People watch Shirley Temple movies today and think it is pedophilic for her characters to develop a rapport with adult men
Watch the implied fellatio dance routine -- this is not subtle. You glow.

>>15263558
IMPERIALISTS BTFO

>>15263723
by the 1830s the american ports for whaling like New Bedford, Nantucket, and Cape Cod, had eclipsed all other nations. One reason for this is that the Dutch, Danes, and Norwegians who were doing a lot of the whaling mainly kept to the lower arctic and upper atlantic ocean around Greenland, while the US went to the lower atlantic and pacific ocean both.

>>15250003
I for one advocates these close friendships that are formed between two guys. It's a kind of heroic friendship we see in the Greeks, such in the Iliad with Achilles and Patroclus Modern academics are quick to dismiss these relationships as “homosexual” because they are both incapable of comprehending male friendship and fear the return of what two devoted heroic friends can accomplish.

>>15249325
Honestly didn't think I would enjoy myself as much as I'm doing reading this book, it might become my new favorite. Melville answers all my questions because of the extent in which he writes all the details, and it's beautiful, the scenes play out in my head like a movie, I'm glad i joined this reading challenge

>Moby Dick wasn't received well during Melville's lifetime
>We're talking about it 169 years later and he doesn't know
Feels bad.

Just listen to the Frank Mullter Narration.
>Truly nothing cozier than listening to Frank read the best novel in the English language.

>>15264128
>tfw he will never know how much he is admired and looked up to

>>15250398
haha, I skipped that part, did I do the book injustice?

>>15264238
I think so. It really conveys the intrinsic ties between the whale and all of human history, literature, art, adventure, science, everything.

>>15263893
thanks ano

>>15264128
>imblying herman isn't smiling down on us from heaven

>>15254316
>>15254411
kek
>>15255698
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rWV8sBZ9ho
Beautiful

>>15249325
Orson Welles delivering some of the lines from chapter 1 (including the opening):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnofetDttSw

>>15264353
so goddamn good

>>15264353
Also, for those anons who have read the book, here is Orson Welles delivering another big passage from one of the final chapters (don't watch if you don't want spoilers).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG3RsNW_k3A

At one time, Orson wrote and filmed a play which was a story about a stage adaption of Moby-Dick (kind of a metafictional play). The few who were witness to the recordings (I believe John Huston was one) said it was some of the most impressive shit Orson ever made. Unfortunately that film is now lost, only still images of the production remain. I wish so badly someone would find a copy of that film somewhere in storage.

>>15249862
Don’t let postmodern and Marxist faggots pervert this scene. Sharing beds with others was very common in the 19th century, particularly in small inns like the Sprouter. Most people couldn’t afford their own rooms and innkeepers could offer a shared bed at a lower cost so the innkeeper still got some money and the person would get a bed for a night,. Faggots will try to convince you otherwise, but this is something that happened literally every day

This anon pretty much nailed it >>15250003

>>15264420
was it common to marry your bedmate?

>>15258792
>Chapter 13 wheelbarrow

>>15264452
You’re thinking about it in entirely coomer terms. As stated before, Melville is establishing ishamel’s character as one who is open to new knowledge and experiences which, at the time, we’re totally foreign to his audience. He’s further establishing Ishmael as someone who is willing to look at the world beyond the Anglo-American understanding of history, culture, and society and make a commitment to exploring these new ideas. Him “marrying” Queequeg is a marriage of ishmael to inquiry. Melville is almost always working on a symbolic level.

>>15264128
What’s even stranger is that Melville actually ramps up the weirdness and obscurity even higher in his later works. Don’t worry, he knew exactly what he was doing and what plebs he was filtering

>>15264587
Piazza tales is pretty normal though, and war-piece's is just a standard poetry collection

>>15264674
Confidence Man, Pierre, and Billy Budd have a ton of depth and esotericism to them tho

>>15264733
Clarel can best be described as "Melville stopped giving a shit and started spewing philosophy none stop for ten thousand or so lines"

What other Melville works should I read? I never see people talk about the rest.

>>15264800
Bartleby the Scrivener and Billy Budd are the only other two I've read but both were great

>>15264517
>n-no they were onnly symbowically gay

>>15264800
His other novels are highly divisive, I'd only suggest them if you really like moby-dick

>>15264941
It was established in the chapter that queequeg's culture has a different conception of marriage

>>15264984

This is ironic in the sense that the other novels were well-liked when they originally dropped, and it was Moby Dick that was divisive/disliked when it first came out.

>>15264998
Pierre and the confidence man where fucking dunked on by the american literary community though
Only his adventure books were regarded well

>>15264998
his stuff after Moby-Dick wasn't well liked. When he released Pierre one of the headlines was something like "MELVILLE LOSES SANITY"

>>15264995
an even gayer conception of marriage

>>15265008
>>15265013

No one cares about those,* I was clearly referring to Omoo and Typee.

*This is not self-defeating. I am right.

>>15265064
It's kind of dumb that people don't care about them. He wrote Moby-Dick, do people think he just suddenly became a retard after that? They are probably just much more challenging and layered than 99% of people are willing to deal with.

>>15265064
>No one cares about those
That's wrong, those are the novels that the literary community debate over to this day
>>15265089
Melville was a pretty weird guy if his letters and journals are anything to go by. Even nabokov found him strange

>>15264238
I mean, it's not gonna cripple your comprehension, but I'd recommend giving it a read if you find some spare time. It really shows the awesome significance of the whale to human history.

>>15264396
Dammit, I hate when shit like that gets lost. That sounds really amazing, I wish it could be found.

>>15264420
Imma keep it real with you anon: most of us don't actually think the scene was intended to be homoerotic, we just like viewing it that way cuz we're a bunch of bisexual degenerates.

>>15264800
Personally, I'm really enjoying his Civil War poetry, even if it is a bit simplistic (especially given how awe-inspiring his prose is). Give a couple of poems a read, they're very short and publicly available.

>>15259123
If you aren't captured by the prose in the first 10 pages just stop reading. It's not for you. Take up a different pastime, maybe disc golf or biking.

About the gay connotations. How prude you all are, even Ishmael. You're all seeing this through the eyes of the western man, how about see this through Queequeg's? He's embracing another body during a cold night in a shitty inn. Just two bodys sharing heat.

>>15265808
Huh? I like the book so far, I'm just afraid of it turning into a list of facts instead of a fun adventure.

I swear 'the whaling encyclopedia parts of Moby Dick were boring and should have been removed' is the only opinion someone can have that actually triggers me. You see it all the time and one of my friends actually told me this too. I have no clue how you can read through Moby Dick and come out with the opinion that all those chapters were a complete waste of time. It's one of those things that makes me question whether or not a person actually read the book, or read a completely different book than the one I did.

>>15265921
from how I remember, the facts are sporadic. a chapter here and there. but they really are entertaining, and often important to the plot as well

>>15265924
"the whaling encyclopedia parts of Moby Dick" VS "Tolstoi's essays in War and Peace"

>>15265903
>and that night, Queequeg harpooned my backside
I don't know, anon.....that seems pretty damning.....

are the woodcuts from the original publication? or only mine

>>15263461
This is a meme that everyone thinks up

>hey I have a friend who wants to whale with me, mind if he joins?
>sure, just have him stop by
>ISHMAEL WHAT THE FUCK THAT'S AN UBERNIGGER

>>15264733
Billy Budd is Melville coming to grips with the fact that he is Christian at heart. Prove me wrong

>>15263631
American Shakespeare and, dare I say it, he surpasses him at times

>>15264128
Not even critics liked it. It wasn’t until people like Faulkner and Hemingway started singing it’s praises that people started to notice him. He died in obscurity. His obituary when he died was buried on the back page and had three lines

>Herman Melville died yesterday at his residence, 104 East Twenty-sixth Street, this city, of heart failure, aged seventy-two. He was the author of Typee, Omoo, Mobie Dick, and other sea-faring tales, written in earlier years. He leaves a wife and two daughters, Mrs. M. B. Thomas and Miss Melville.

Makes you wonder how many lost geniuses have been forgotten by time

>unfort'nt v'y'ge
can someone vocaroo hat for me

>>15267858
I repeat, what the fuck does queequeg's dialogue sound like

>>15267858
https://voca.ro/2vR0JFvwwy6

>>15267865
you must travel to rokovoko and teach one of them to speak english to find out

>>15267881
based

>>15267881
>>15267858
thats what it sounded like in my head. thank you

Reminder that Moby-Dick is meant to be read aloud. It enhances the experience tenfold

>>15251100
Well, it is not for everybody. Maybe one day.

>>15250862
Check out:
>>15253778

>>15268036
Is it, really?

>>15267789
Why would i? You are correct, and I'm glad for it. I hope i see him in heaven.

>>15267858
>>15267865
I vocalize Queequeg's dialogue in a Rasta accent for some reason.

>>15265924
What would American Psycho be without the chapters on Whitney Houston?

>>15264420
Forget the 19th c. -two guys (albeit friends) share a bed for the same reasons in Hitchcock's "The Lady Vanishes." They even share the same pair of pajamas, with one taking the top and the other the bottoms (hmm) because the hotel can only spare one for comedy reasons.

>>15249325
Bump

>>15262859
>The main problem with Melville is he doesn't have much to say.

What chapter are you guys in?

>>15263303
>I also think he has a few quibbles with Platonic philosophy
Melville is vehemently opposed to all totalising systems and also opposed to the notion that we can reach any sort of truth through knowledge, even if that knowledge is attained through a rigorous dialectical process. One of the many points most people tend to miss about the whaling chapters is that they are indicative of the faulty epistemology of science, science attempts to classify, categorise and place everything under its thrall, but it is obviously incapable of doing this. All the various strains of knowledge (art, science, psychological, philosophical, religious etc) only offer various perspectives, but none of them offer a harmonious whole under which it all can be understood, this is a notion that is present in Plato but completely absent in Melville. Ahab can never strike through the mask or get his tight grip, Melville's world is the one of the painting in the spouter inn, I look, you look, we look, he looks, there is never any ultimate knowledge or transcendence. Man cannot even know himself or whence his motives come from: “Consider the subtleness of the sea; how its most dreaded creatures glide under water, unapparent for the most part, and treacherously hidden beneath the loveliest tints of azure. Consider also the devilish brilliance and beauty of many of its most remorseless tribes, as the dainty embellished shape of many species of sharks. Consider, once more, the universal cannibalism of the sea; all whose creatures prey upon each other, carrying on eternal war since the world began.

Consider all this; and then turn to the green, gentle, and most docile earth; consider them both, the sea and the land; and do you not find a strange analogy to something in yourself? For as this appalling ocean surrounds the verdant land, so in the soul of man there lies one insular Tahiti, full of peace and joy, but encompassed by all the horrors of the half-known life. God keep thee! Push not off from that isle, thou canst never return!”

15 chapters by next sunday too?

>>15270078
Wensday

Well, I'm very pleased to see this thread, and an actual organized discussion of a book. I've tried to read Moby Dick in the past, but for some reason or another, have always put it down after a hundred pages or so, even though I remember enjoying it. Not sure what happened. It's currently sitting on the floor by my bed, and I guess it seems like I'm meant to read it now. I'll get up to chapter 15 today, and enjoy/contribute to the thread after.

>>15265924
Well, go ahead then, what's the purpose of the whaling encyclopedia chapters of Moby-Dick? They're boring, the information they contain is mostly wrong, they don't advance the plot or characterization, and they're written in a laboriously flowery style.

>>15265981
Tolstoi's essays in War and Peace were interesting back then, and are still worth reading today, unlike the whaling encyclopedia chapters in Moby-Dick.

>>15263403
>>15262928
>>15263343

>one of the main critiques of melville's works is that he has too much to say and is in fact too philosophical, he sets things up that flies over people's heads all the time

That's really the same criticism I'm making.

Moby-Dick can be read as an allegory for anything, which makes it an allegory for nothing. In Moby-Dick many subjects are briefly touched upon, but rarely with any depth whatsoever; and the ornate language gives many opportunities for reading more than was written into the text. Melville's ocean is a muddy puddle - you only think it's deep because it's convoluted into opacity.

>>15270551
Nigger the book opens with like eighty bible quotes and the etymology of the title; melville isn't trying to obscure anything, you're just too retarded to see the obvious

>>15270497
It was already explained in this thread
>>15269680
>the information they contain is mostly wrong,
That's the point retard

i love boats

>>15270497
It's some of the best written scientific non-fiction. To think that along with all the other things this novel is, it was also the first major account of cetology.

>>15270551
>I cant figure out what it means so it has nothing to say
>All art must be direct and lacking any subtlety and tell me exactly what its about

>>15270735
>That's the point retard
That was the point I was making

>>15271432
Why come here to argue if you're just going to be an obtuse bitch

So, Peleg and Bildad's "fight" over what lay to give Ishmael was a scam, right? Same with what they told him about Ahab.

>>15271513
Peleg came across as incredibly honest, how did you even read a scam in that situation? What would even be the scam?

>>15271513
How would what they told him about Ahab be a scam? He was pretty forthcoming with Ishmael

>>15271593
I saw it as kind of a good cop bad cop situation. If we believe Ishmael when he says 200 is a reasonable lay, than Peleg's offer of 300 would be unreasonable. However, Bildad's offer of 777 is so absurdly low that it makes Peleg's offer seem fair by comparison.

Basically, they got Ishmael to accept a bad deal by having Peleg pretend to be on his side, or at least that's how I read it.

>>15271627
This is my first read through, so I might be missing something, but what I've heard of Ahab makes him seem crazier than what he told Ishmael.

>>15271662
He does admit he's crazy, or at least, odd and peculiar. He's not going to call his captain outright crazy. He says at heart he's a good man with a family, and a daughter.

>>15271262
>Great art must present itself as a puzzle to make its boring content seem vaguely interesting

Read some Proust - subtle meaning expressed with great clarity. Now look back at Melville - endless ramblings and stylistic exercises, and to say what?

>>>15270735
>Things look different when you look at them from a different angle

Yawn. But it sure gives 20th century critics a lot of room for propping themselves and the almighy "Reader" up.

I am happy to be on board in this with you guys. So far I loved the book Im on chapther XXIX and Im reading in spanish. Still love the prose remains beautiful. In what language other than english you huys are reading it?

>>15249325
I'm gonna read genre fiction instead because both are equally useful

>>15270551
>Moby-Dick can be read as an allegory for anything, which makes it an allegory for nothing
Now I know you don’t know what you’re talking about. Let me guess, your faggot tranny high school lit teacher didn’t like it because his retarded ass didn’t understand it so he disparaged it with the most cliche, normie critique and you swallowed it up and believe it because you think you’re some contrarian faggot. Unironically kill yourself

>>15271956
Melville is the model of writer that I would like to follow. He lived a great life in sea and wrote one book so ahead of his time that plebs couldn't aprecciate it.

>>15271821
>and to say what
I’m not that guy, so don’t expect me to uphold his argument here, but what the fuck are on about? Why does art have to “say” something? Art isn’t just communication—it’s meant for self-reflection, it’s supposed to make you feel. Moby-Dick is bristling with emotion. I also think you’re wrong to oppose puzzles in art, because the universality of an ambiguous opus can be striking, but the main problem with your counterpoint to his is that the content isn’t “boring” at all. It’s alliterative, awe-inducing drama that takes philosophical turns to complete an incredibly personal and consciousness-expanding experience.

>>15270551
Alright, I'm gonna give you a serious response here, because I genuinely hope you can someday appreciate this work of art.

Melville writes with incredible purpose, and gives an incredible critique of human ambition in the face of nature. At the time of writing, this was an ever present issue in America, given things like Western expansion and a potential Pacific empire were hot-button issues of the time. To this end, Melville uses a wide variety of allegory, from Biblical verses showing man's powerlessness before God, to an incredibly progressive (for the time) view of Pagan cultures. Furthermore, in the actual progression of the novel, as flexibility in life succeeds while rigid fixation fails, the theme of accommodating cosmic will is ever present, and is explained subtly through the aforementioned narrative progression.

tldr; Melville wrote with the purpose of underlining the futility of man's imperial hubris when faced with God/the universe (as they are one and the same), and to supplement this he uses allegory and symbolism. It's quite a powerful message, especially in the modern era of neo-colonialism and ecological collapse, and I don't see how you could consider it shallow.

>>15271956
I only know English, and I think I'll just stick to English to enjoy the original words. I'm sure it's still wonderful tho. What translation?

what sort of adventures would we read of if ishmael chose the devil-dam or the tit-bit instead?

>>15273434
Ones less meaningful than ahab's

>>15273454
we will never truly know

>>15249325
its too long >:(

why cant we read harry potter or the hunger games instead? those books are great unlike literal who trash from 200 years ago

>>15273615

>>15273615
(You)

>>15273637
cool tank :D thanks for posting! I love tanks and big explosions unlike boring books like moby dick

>>15261482
https://youtu.be/HkPvoz2hXyI

After reading some leftist analysis of the book in YouTube comments I was going to make a thread bitching about it, but after seeing this thread I think I'll reread instead

>>15271986
>your faggot tranny high school lit teacher
What has any of this got to do with tranny faggots? Moby-Dick is not exactly a maximally heterosexual red-pill traditionalist novel. Besides, you're accusing me of being a normie and a contrarian, in the same sentence... which is it? And what's your motivation for reading Moby-Dick, besides being able to tell the "normies" that you're smart cause you read a book with a lot of pages?

>>15272512
>>Moby-Dick is bristling with emotion.

I disagree completely but that's complicated to argue about one way or another, except by relying on authorized opinions. If you're going through an emotional rollercoaster while reading about the details of whaling, good for you.

>>15273189
Thanks, I appreciate the honest answer. I read Moby-Dick maybe 5 to 8 years ago, in my early-mid twenties, and absolutely hated it.

>an incredibly progressive (for the time) view of Pagan cultures.

This has become so mainstream that it's bland. Admittedly that's not Melville's fault.

>It's quite a powerful message, especially in the modern era of neo-colonialism and ecological collapse, and I don't see how you could consider it shallow.

Mainly because of the inefficient way in which it's expressed. Chapters like the whiteness of the whale, or the cetology chapters, don't help much in carrying the point across.

But it's something I struggle with now and again in anglo literature. This tradition, starting with Shakespeare, seems to be obsessed with what I'd called stylistic acrobatics, or convoluted puns. Depending on the author, it ends up feeling like cryptic crosswords, affected showboating, and in the worst cases it devolves into a word salad where readers can see whatever they want (I've already said it, but Moby-Dick is often dangerously close to that). Meanwhile writers in other literary traditions are more likely to view style as the medium for artistic intent, and merely a part of the writer's craft, rather than as the soul of literature.

>>15274056
Who are some of the writers that you think are really good?

>>15274056
>Chapters like the whiteness of the whale,
This is one of the greatest chapters in all of literature. If you can’t see that, then you really should go back to r/books

>>15274056
>but Moby-Dick is often dangerously close to that
But it isn't. Moby dick makes it very clear that it's main concern is religion, in specific it's the need for blind faith butting heads with man's obsession with rationalization. Things such as racism and other such politics are secondary themes, the main issue is made clear from the start

this book better be #1 on /lit/'s 2020 list

>>15274413
It's my favorite book, definitely better than Don Quixote which typically crowns top 100 novel lists.

>used copy I bought is missing 7 pages

>>15275507
just read those 7 pages on gutenberg bro

>>15265981
vs the sewer sections in Hugo's Les Miserables