/lit/ - Literature

It's nutty to think that a huge chunk of modern politics is essentially a proxy war between SomethingAwful and 4chan, after all these years. But that seems to be the case.

>>15198576
>SomethingAwful and 4chan
huh, those have the same participants

>>15198576
sa is kind of ootp now though, it's more between reddit and 4chan with twitter as the battleground

>>15198593
not really, i mean they deleted their best (and most influential btw) forum for being mean to trannies, even though one of the biggest participants was a tranny herself

isnt that where chapo fag house originated?

>>15198617
that originated from weird twitter which originated from fyad which is [was] an sa forum so yes ultimately

>>15198563
no all of them are written by people who don't even lurk here for a month

Something Awful still exists?

Anyway, such books are always full on cringe and hugely ignorant on the subject they write about. Something they get away with only because their target audience is still far more ignorant. The phrasing "post-truth" is apt when describing such books.

>>15198649
>>15198666
angela nagle seems to know a decent amount at least, she even talks about weird offshoots like frog tiwtter and crap

>>15198675
T.Angelga

>>15198649
this one isnt, he was here in 2004 already and actually knows the history and the influence it has

>>15198563
No, because its all written by redditfags & bottom-feeding journalists.

>>15198666
Who even is the target audience Satan? The same newfags that read ED?

>>15198576
The russians, the americans, the chinese, the nazis, the commies, the incels, the non-binary furries, they all use the internet as a tool to make their unpopular opinions popular. But so far only the nazis have turned all this useless distracting noise into something tangible: they made a lot of american retards kill innocent people including schoolchildren

>>15198666
there's a long harvard study that explores internet culture from early 4chan to stormfront raids and it was very accurate and insightful. Sadly I can't find it right now but it's free online

>>15198854
>the nazis

What? You mean Hitler and his pals are shitposting from a bunker in Argentina or?

>>15198858
interested
author?

>>15198981
neonazis, pedant

>>15198854
the incels did that too dude, but only like a couple times

Still waiting for Tao Lin’s /lit/ novel

>>15198854
also it was actually three-letter agency mkultra techniques that caused that

Imagine being so personally invested in an internet message board that you get upset when it's criticized.

>>15199118
don't get me wrong 4chan is a giant heaping pile of dogshit but not for the reason these faggots thinkg lmao

the entirety of 4chan turning into /pol/ surely cannot be the result of half a dozen stormfront astroturfers in 2013 right. like it’s 100% cia at this point

also the rhizzone (sa colony) must be the saddest board on the internet. bunch of gifted-kid stoners whose #1 wish in life is to be massacred by a trans navajo so that the oppressed masses can finally overthrow amerika and enact their people’s republic or some shit. at least the room temperature iq nazis on /pol/ have some fucking semblance of self respect, however misguided

>>15199163
it has more to do with various different offsite things like nazi podcasts, the daily stormer, nrx blogs, and so on. but maybe these are all just cia psyops so who knows

>>15199163
also is wddp still active, it was like rhizzone iirc but a thousand times worse

>>15199188
One of the early Tekwars Kantbot and Logo lay out a rough genealogy of a potential CIA->SA->Occupy Wallstreet pipeline for the progressive stack as a psyop to neuter leftist politics. Apparently SA was really popular with the younger members of the intelligence community in the mid 2000's. Not sure I buy it, but as a narrative it ties a lot of things together neatly.

>>15198563
>post–truth America
>totally has nothing to do with the lying press you guys it was all internet trolls!

>>15199188
Yeah, I'm sure it's all just the CIA & not that both the mainstream Right & the Left have so alienated a large group of people to the extent that they started looking for other alternatives.

Kill All Normies was decent ngl, not fleshed our enough tho.

>>15199699
I'm old enough that I was actually in OWS, first & last time I had anything to do with a protest movement. Yeah, it got derailed basically overnight & most Leftists I've talked to still cope about it, claiming that somehow its not their fault that they utterly failed to galvanise the public sentiment into a real movement. They've mostly learned nothing since then either, they fall for the same shit over & over again. CIA have used IdPol for all this before, see Gloria Steinem back in the 60s. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HRUEqyZ7p8

>>15199699
>Apparently SA was really popular with the younger members of the intelligence community
i'm pretty sure vilerat (one of the guys who died in benghazi) was like their only piece of evidence for that. seems like a load of shit to me. sa didn't ahve nearly as much of an influence on the development of taht progressive stack ideology as university professors. if anything that stuff was only prevalent on sa because it was mostly college kids posting there, just as it was mostly college kids at ows, making lots of overlap

I read excerpts from Kill All Normies and she seemed to know what she was talking about though the way things accelerate nowadays at this point it would be like a history f the Whig party.
Most other journalists are hilarious, like Time magazine trying to explain hippies to their readers in 1968.

>>15200078
Biggest influence SA had on me was (1) laughs because my high school 'computer lab' teacher thought that JeffK was real, and (2) introduced me to the hot dog rollup which was pretty tasty.

Imagine paying $10 to shitpost.

>>15199163
You can't be this clueless. It's because of the massive uptick in idpol starting around 2014, it literally forced people to choose. The vast majority of the /pol/ population are young men who were disgusted by various progressive influences in culture. Stormfront tried for years to colonize without achieving anything, it was literally just the progressives themselves that caused this.

That looks like the worst book ever written

>>15201571
>Be troll
>On board full of other trolls
>Gee what will get me (You)s?

>>15198854
nicely put

>>15201662
It has nothing to do with the chans, it has happened literally everywhere in culture. During the 00s normalfags barely ever thought about politics, it was only in the past decade that the academic discourse about 'straight white males' started to bleed fully into the mainstream and cause people to pick one side or the other.

And since it's intersectional you have multiple axes, you have nonwhite men reacting to feminism, white women reacting to anti-white sentiment, etc. Half the people chose to check their privilege, the other half reacted more or less extremely.

>>15198854
You're forgetting radical Muslim groups who have been using internet propaganda to great effect to cause people to join terror cells. Also it's not just Americans who have turned nazi, Breivik and Tarrant and so on exist

>>15198858
Was this an excerpt from it, or is this just some larper on the internet?

>>15200078
>>15198666
>>15198563
Even though moot originally came from SA. SA itself is the polar opposite of 4chan. SA requires money to sign up. Forum avatars, signatures, and namefaggotry are in full effect. Only a handful of boards. Users actually tend to be somewhat competent and secretive because they aren't as open to the public. Mods curtail free speech even more harshly and anything remotely rightwing will earn you a ban.

>>15201869
So it's like Metafilter.

>>15198858
is it this one?

Kek, Cucks, and God Emperor Trump: A Measurement Study of 4chan's Politically Incorrect Forum and Its Effects on the Web

https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2016arXiv161003452E/abstract

>>15201662

I like how trolling is treated a sliding scale that ends with child porn. The implication seems to be that it starts with making fun of Hillary on Facebook but before you know it you're posting hardcore CP on infinitychan

>>15203558
Figure 11, we also report the percentage of/pol/posts in which the top 15 most “popular” hate words from https://www.hatebase.org http://www.nltk.org the hate base dictionary appear. “Nigger” is the most popular hate word, used in more than 2% of posts, while “faggot” and“retard” appear in over 1% of posts. To get an idea of the magnitude of hate, consider that “nigger” appears in 265K posts,i.e., about 120 posts an hour. After the top 3 hate words, there is a sharp drop in usage, although we see a variety of slurs.These include “goy,” which is a derogatory word used by Jewish people to refer to non-Jewish people. In our experience,however, we note that “goy” is used in an inverted fashion on/pol/, i.e., posters call other posters “goys” to imply that they are submitting to Jewish “manipulation” and “trickery.”

this is from 2017

>>15203641

That's hilarious, though 120 posts an hour containing 'nigger' actually seems quite low. At least for /pol/. I wonder if its higher on /b/

>>15203641
>idiot

>>15203641
>no entry for 'leaf'
The Canadians are the most oppressed group on /pol/

>>15199699
Kantbot could be a good looking guy if he lost the fucking lard and lifted. Yet he chose the incel life

>>15203641
>idiot

>>15199163
>half a dozen stormfront astroturfers in 2013 right
there were also redditors, pre-2013 users who started doing it as a joke and then took it seriously, and eightchan fags

>>15201724
>Breivik
I doubt he was brainwashed by any forum. The fucked up insanity in Norway tends to be homegrown

>>15204595
>eightchan fags
Were originally all from half anyway, and after the place got devoured by newfags (and the shit with the jannies happened), the migration happened.

>>15198617
yeah

so did MDE and cumtown

>>15201705
Politics have been everywhere in public discourse since the 17th century and idpol is only an outgrowth of the progressive movement that was already afoot in various form even before 1789.
Feminism is more than two centuries old at this point, Marxism is around 150 years old, etc.

>>15204775
>cumtown
they really are the most obnoxious group I've ever had the displeasure of listening to. That one guy's laugh is so fucking disgusting. The delivery of the jokes (which is already bad) is completely obliterated by that fucking laugh. I'm glad I don't live anywhere near him cause I wouldn't resist punching him in the face

>>15204781
You would have to be blind to not notice what happened in the past 10 years. The constant, never-ending bickering about 'white male privilege'. It just was not a thing on anywhere near the same scale before, and is the obvious reason why things like /pol/ exploded.

Not really. I already know about this stuff from my own experience of being on 4chan since 2006, and watching the culture shift from what was essentially edgy, non-sequiter shitposting to alt-right hatemongering

>>15198627
weird twitter sucks

>>15204950
>>15204781
here is an image that gets passed around that drives the point home

>>15204950
how old were you 10 years ago?

>>15204933
>>15204975
cope. I'd be interested to know what kinds of things make you laugh

>>15204986
>cope
holy shit it's the underage meme buzzword with no meaning! epic humor!

>>15205007
>projecting

>>15204950
>never-ending bickering about 'white male privilege'
a white girl meme that got blown out of proportion by underage white boys. This shitty "culture war" only became a problem when the media started giving it attention.

>>15204950
I've noticed it, but it's only the social media extension of a much older trend. There were female-exclusive "sisterhood" for feminists already in the 60s. Likewise the idea that white males represent the big bad oppressing demographic of the entire world is an old cliché by now.

The language and assumptions have changed, but the drive is fundamentally the same.

The only realy difference I've noticed (but this is a capital one) is that whites are starting to buy this shit, not in the sense that a minority feels guilty (that's also pretty old), but in the sense that many of those that don't feel guilty are feeling threatened, pretty much as if they were a minority themselves.

That's the decisive shift, the loss of an underlying, implicit and collective feeling of invulnerability of the white demographic. The nonsense you see on this site and elsewhere about the "incoming white genocide" is a perfect example of this. But as you know the great replacement theory is itself pretty old, the fear of incoming racial extinction was a driving force behind the rise of the nazis (and wasn't exclusive to nazi ideology, far from that).

So if anything what's unfolding right is the return, in another form, of a complex of fear and criticism that already existed in 19th century Europe and 20th century Germany, and that has now been displaced to the US (and in the process has taken distinctly American forms in vocabulary and reflexes). The rise of China and the death of the dream of American hegemony as it could exist (briefly) in the 90s play as much a part as the rise of Latinos and Black demographic in the US.

>>15205010
>no u
another epic reply from the youtube child. Fuck off back to /b/

>>15205024
you're mad

>>15205029
you sure showed me :trollface:! go ahead and pull the "I was only pretending" now. Classic

>>15205033
The only one pretending here...is you

>>15205037
>no u: part 2

>>15204985
This exemplifies a change in vocabulary much more than a change in spirit. See how many of the older words (antisemitism for instance) are recurring throughout the 80s. See how the relative use of some of those words (like feminism) is already decreasing.

The main change seems to be the creation and overuse of various neologisms and a general shift towards a vocabulary of victimhood (as opposed to, for instance, a vocabulary of rule of law or equity).

An amusing thing is how the victim stance has been largely been recuperated by the far right (something that you image cannot make apparent). The martyr complex and the whining about persecution at every sign of dissent used to be a hallmark of left-leaning discourse, but now it's used just as much by right-wing people.

TL;DR: People have gotten more whiny and arguments have gotten more personal all accross the politcal spectrum and especially at the extremes, but the issues haven't changed much.

>>15205023
I hope you get tortured to death

>>15205053
this seems like an overreaction

>>15205052
No you slimy piece of shit, the main change is that they lost their minds and started constantly attacking whites and males.

>>15204985
society progressed and started recognizing real social problems that were largely ignored for centuries?
woah... who would've thought

>>15205023
good post.

>>15205079
That was my point you worthless festering pile of vomit, that the past decade showed a dramatic difference, which you call progress because youre a mindless sack of shit

>>15205077
>mentions racism, KKK, white nationalism, extremism, sexism, and homophobia after being oppressed for decades
>NOOO *shoots up a mosque* WE'RE THE REAL VICTIMS *shoots up a gay club* YOU'RE ATTACKING US *shoots up a school*

>>15205092
you are gay

>>15205100
And youll just keep getting shot more and more you pathetic fucking cunt

>>15205092
>trying to fight against racism, homophobia, sexism, discrimination and abuse isn't progress
seethe harder dipshit

>>15205100
>WE'RE THE REAL VICTIMS *shoots up a gay club*
I have a feeling that you don't know the race/religion of the perpetrator of this one.

>>15205052
>An amusing thing is how the victim stance has been largely been recuperated by the far right (something that you image cannot make apparent).
>>15205077
>No you slimy piece of shit, the main change is that they lost their minds and started constantly attacking whites and males.
Lad...

>>15204986
I spent a lot of time on weird Twitter. I still enjoy the ironic banter but the cliquey infighting and egotistic posturing is just unbearable

>>15198563
rofl yah it is 4chan that spawned post truth America. Jesus Christ I hate these people with a passion

>>15205112
Niggers being so incapable of civilized behavior that every single majority black city on earth without exception is a rancid shithole that nobody including them want to live in is not evidence that they are oppressed in the West when they ruin everywhere they go there too.

>>15205109
*fucks your white mother and leaves*
nothing personnel kid, keep seething and killing your own people

>>15205127
niggers constantly kill each other and everyone else because youre retarded fucking apes. The best thing that can ever happen to a nigger is being able to not live around other niggers, being allowed to live around mostly humans

>Niggers being so incapable of civilized behavior that every single majority black city on earth without exception is a rancid shithole that nobody including them want to live in is not evidence that they are oppressed in the West when they ruin everywhere they go there too.

>>15205148
Every single black city on earth. Every single one is shit

>>15201662
>>15201705
He is right, you are a moron, stfu end of conversation

>>15205141
>t. >>15205148

>>15205118
Yeah I agree about that part. I think that mainly the solution is to stay away from politics. Got an @?

you are right >>15205155

he is a moron >>15201662

my bad. Most of 4chan wasn't even jew pilled until 2017, it was muh SJW's and muh Muslims and feminists. They didnt know all those groups are run by the kikes let alone anywhere else in this shithole /lit/ has only been jew pilled for a little over year. It wasn't stgormfags it was the kikes stepping on the gas so hard they became obvious to oblivious normie tier retards because they invaded literally every space with their kikery to where people were forced to take notice

>>15205182
>no racism outside of /b/
back to your containment board roach

>>15205053
This is unconvicing. I don't believe you're being sincere, anon.

>>15205189
suck my dick demonic bloody cock sucker

>>15205197
take your pills alex, behave or you won't see your kids this weekend

>>15205189
jews arent a race faggot, seethe more

>>15205077
My point is precisely they've been doing this for a long time ("they" being a vocal minority of public people and oversocialized retards btw). The difference now is that white are starting to take it to heart, because I guess whites have become pussies now. I mean look at this thread.

>>15205209
youll be shot by fascists or invading nonwhites and youll deserve it

>>15205205

>>15205208
oops too late. already hit the button

>>15205225
oh no he might have to restart his router

>>15205220
>he already has an image prepared for those who tell him to take his meds
the asolute state of polshitters

>>15205231
>>15205230
you can always spot JIDF because you are the most cringe fucking retards on the Internet

It's been interesting to watch 4chan's discourse change. I've been here since 2007. I am actually a born and raised Catholic who never stopped practicing or believing in God. When I was on 4chan at the start, the site was a mix of libertarianism and leftism. I never really brought up my religion because religion just didn't get discussed, period. The biggest thing 4chan had done in the real world were the Scientology protests, and those weren't really *overtly* political, insofar as they did not seek to effect change within the official political system.

On /lit/ itself it's been interesting to see the change come in waves. The foretaste of it was around 2014 when we started to have serious discussions about religion. People who say that there didn't used to be Christfags on /lit/ are EXTREME newfags, we were having discussions on Christianity since the beginning of the board and they started to get very serious more than five years ago. Do you remember the Millbank spam? Because I do. /lit/ has been the most religious board on 4chan for years now.

>>15205119
The cause is the smartphone explosion, but 4chan, specifically /pol/ is up there for exacerbating disinfo. Back in the day, people on 4chan actually posted links to articles or screencapped them. Now, they just post an image containing an inflammatory title pertaining to some article (that could easily be fake) and people take the bait (especially /pol/tards) and those retards spread that shit like wildfire.

I ran my own experiment to investigate:

https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/253425681/

>>15205303
lol. bretty good

>>15199163
>the entirety of 4chan turning into /pol/ surely cannot be the result of half a dozen stormfront astroturfers in 2013 right. like it’s 100% cia at this point
Maybe for the site as a whole, but unironic neonazis have been around on 4chan since close to the beginning, of a variety very different from the stormfront crowd and organized neonazis (the kind that march in crowds).

There's a lot of inconsistency when studying this evolution of the site, if you're anthropologically/historically inclined, especially in regards to stories that get passed around.
It's difficult to find the hard source material, but it's there.
For one, when I see self-identifying """oldfags""" talking about how the site used to be in overly exacting terms, it often stinks of bullshit for a lot of reasons (the amount of content on 4chan over the years was huge, even back then, and I doubt most users post or even lurk more than 5 boards).
But it's anonymous. Anybody can claim to be here from 2005, and even fool people who really were.

Anyway, there's some evidences, the best preserved on youtube. The earliest is the famous fox report from 2007.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=128IR21ZQa0
Obvious things aside, 4chan was known for having strong antisemitic nazi streaks. To say it was all just an edgy joke, bro, hardly cuts it. That's bullshit. The users weren't in some perpetual irony craze, it was for the shit of it.
You can find other sources sprinkled through this period. An example would be a youtuber named razorfist, who makes a comment in one of his videos (can't remember which) that's at least 10 years old referring to 4chan as the modern Hitler Youth. His videos go back to 2011, but his earliest material his actually dated further and everything is a reup, for some reason.
Then, youtube fag named I Hate Everything made a video on 4chan in the preelection period, 2014, which the posts archived therein indicate an unironic neonazi streak (though after the alleged stormfront incursion).
You can follow this trail, if you're interested in its evidential history or anthropology. But it's not easy to do because you're either relying on your own hazy recollections, anonymous claims, and second hand sources otherwise. It's unfortunate the scientific studies postdate the election, and other critical periods.

>>15205017
Oh, so it only became an issue when the billion dollar international media paid attention to it, and it became justification for major political changes & social engineering via sweeping educational reform to accommodate it? Wow, what a nothingburger.

>>15198593 >>15198593 >>15198596 >>15198854 >>15198576
No. Goons (who supposedly became SJWs because they accidentally fucking with mega-feminists who turned them into a political tool) and the likes of Stormfront, both of which have kept their grounds for years. Fucking hate ideologues and what they did to 4chan.

>>15205378
>they accidentally fucking
*fucked

>>15198563
No it isn't. It is if you're an ignoramus who should get off my board. Otherwise, all you need to do is read Revolt of the Masses, play MGS2, and watch Serial Experiments Lain.

>>15205303
>/pol/ is up there for exacerbating disinfo.
Oh so it's /pol/ who owns the media, started the Frankfurt school to infiltrate academia to rewrite history and has been known as a cult of liars for 1000's of years? Wow thanks for enlightening me friend I am glad you got me straightened out

>>15205348
I agree that those people have been around for a while, but no one took them seriously until later on. That's the reason /new/ was shut down. But, before all of that, racism was used as a form of trolling and shock humor. It wasn't a strong held sentiment with political use, just one to use against the masses. 4chan even trolled a neo-Nazi show at one point, to prove that there was no favoritism over the choice of people they'd target at that time.

There was no cohesive politicized center, everything and everyone was up for grabs. Nothing was holy to them. No dumb identity politics bullshit.

>>15205417
You're not one to straight. You're brainwashed. It's too late for you. You jumped into an assumption about what I knew because I insulted your cult. The media is shit, but so is /pol/.

>>15205453
speak english you fucking retard

>>15205459

>>15205469
I never said /pol/ was a paragon of truth or that I give two shots about what goes on there. Most of the people on /pol/ are fucking retards like you are. I said it wasn't 4chan that started "post trust America" that was the fucking Jews like have always done all through history. Your levels of projection about brainwashing and cult behavior is disturbing. You probably need therapy, I'm sorry your pappy raped you mate

Something no one mentioned yet is the r/srs, or shit reddit says, subreddit which was founded by goons. It started out mostly ironically as the idea was to infuriate the average redditor who at the time was a kind of proto-basedboy that was closer in values to what we today might think of as the alt-light. Think the classic self-described socially liberal, fiscally conservative tech worker, a ron paul enthusiast who believes in equality of opportunity not outcome and who is very enthusiastic about freedom of speech protecting his favourite porn genre. Honestly the only difference between this kind of person and the average 4channer of the day was the channer liked to say 'nigger', which is why this place was hit by SF raids primarily and not SA raids.
Anyway, srs stopped being ironic and started being actually serious after the an influx of people who were not in on the joke began promulgating the culture and rhetoric of the subreddit and many of the originals memed themselves in to believing their own bullshit. They started getting subs banned for being offensive. The first subs they targeted were really obvious ones that few people would object to like r/beatingwomen and similar, but the first real flex of their moral power over the website was when they got r/jailbait banned which of course infuriated a massive portion of the users with their libertarianesque leanings.

From there on out the the culture metastasised and r/srs became less relevant as their efforts had become self-sustaining as by this time had succeeded in helping along a major shift in silicon valley/techbro culture.

>>15205504
>shots
begone phoneposter

>>15205518
when did reddit stop having those edgy subs? I remember in like 2010/2011 there was all types of shit on there

>>15205423
But is there anyway to prove that conclusively, for as many users of this site has ever had, on something other than recollection? Because I don't think so.
There's evidence on both ends. For one, moot seemed defensive about not deleting /pol/, and nazi stuff seems to spontaneously generate and embed throughout 4chan's history. But then there's what you mentioned about /new/.

But then /pol/ was never shut down, and frankly /pol/ was far more reactionary and radical the in the early days than now, because the_donald brought this massive influx of moderate righties, etc. and also the attention of liberals and liberal internet activists. The Christchurch shooter wasn't even from /pol/, he was out of a 4chan derivative.
And /pol/ itself has invited actual counterintelligence and propaganda organizations and agencies (provable through things like the UN report on /pol/), though their success on /pol/ is bad compared to other places they've hit. The CCP has a full time department for this kind of thing, after all.
That's why, if I were going to pick anything from a purely evidential standpoint, a specific but nebulously idiosyncratic sympathy for Nazis (distinct from actual organized neonazis) has been an intrinsic part of 4chan, despite teh opinions of any inidivudal user, more than any other loose political idea.

>>15198563
I didn't even know there was such a thing as a 4chan book. Why would someone write such a thing?

>>15205218
>youll
Start by learning to properly use contractions before you issue death sentences.

>>15205348
Thanks for the attempt at objectivity. The Nazis have definitely always been floating around here (and SA), but I would dispute the idea that most of the epic Hitler stuff was sincere. Places like this attracted a lot of actually crazy people in the mid-2000s, neo-Nazi types among them. But now the far right politics comes from a place of disaffection, not paranoid obsession, and in this respect has replaced the more random, adolescent style of reacting against predominant ideologies. 4chan wasn't yet a quasi-organized political platform

>>15205504
>the fucking Jews
I contend that it was the smartphone explosion. And let's be honest here, we probably aren't thinking about the same thing when we're talking about "post-truth". I'm looking at my post on /pol/ as an example of "post-truth". You're probably thinking of it in terms of the whole mainstream media, solely. I don't. Every communications medium introduces the potential to disseminate falsehoods and new ones are the worst when it comes to it. The Protocols are a good example -- but you probably believe those, don't you?

Anyways, the proliferation of internet access through smartphones allowed all sorts of shit to seep through the tunnel. People found stuff, believed it, spread it. Shit like that.

Let's agree to disagree, /pol/tard. There's no convincing anyone. This is a waste of time.

>>15205291
>Do you remember the Millbank spam?
Yes I do and I hadn't realized how I missed it. Thank you for reminding me of it.

>>15205547
You have the timeline right. It was around 2011/2012 that the site really blew up and they started becoming image conscious and taking complaints seriously. Before then it is as you say, lots of edgy minor subreddits, it was sort of like a decentralised /b/. When r/jailbait was banned the front page of the website was filled with threads of irate tirades about the suppression of free-speech and the first amendment for a couple of days. You couldn't imagine that happening now the culture is so different.

>>15205583
The point is it was always lies you fucking retard for 1000's of years. Why the fuck are you retarded?

I know what you are saying posting snopes tier memes and rumors without fact checking, that would actually date back to email, did phones have an impact on it? Possibly but you are just talking about more access to social media period. Let you in on a secret, most people are idiots and believe almost anything you tell them so the medium/platform doesn't matter.

Let you in on a bigger secret, the news has always been fake it is nothing new. So everyone who ever bought or sold a newspaper was spreading fake news long before computers were even invented. You are trying to distinguish home grown fake news from old fashioned coordinated fake news which is just stupid.

Fake news and bullshit is fake news and bullshit no matter what the source just because the media lost a monopoly on peddling bullshit doesn't make the new ways of distributing the bullshit the cause of the bullshit being spread

>>15205552
>/pol/ was far more reactionary and radical the in the early days than now
Really? What I remember about /pol/ in 2012 is all the Ron Paul memes, and I think people were just as committed to that libertarian platform as they came to be to The Donald's. But you may be right that the Nazis were always the most conspicuous political posters, even if they were only a small minority. It certainly was never that "cool" to be something on the far left

>>15205417
Man how can your people argue that the media is brainwashing people or spreading propaganda when you also do the same thing nonchalantly and in a more ridiculous manner?
Who do you expect will believe you? Or are you just some bot incapable of saying anything that doesn't fall into the same 30 endlessly repeated arguments about the Jews/shills or 10 insults/passive-agressive comments?

>>15205583
if you think 4chan spreads more bullshit than twitter or facebook or cable news you are a stone cold retard and I dont go to /pol/ you fuck tard

>>15205625
Yeah, Ron Paul was the boards darling in that era. I remember there were Nazi posters around, but they were mockingly dismissed as Stormfags.

>>15205628
>Who do you expect will believe you?
Not a /pol/ guy, but evidently, a lot of people do. Think of all the underage posters

>>15199163
back when I was radicalised, I came to 4chan after being radicalised on youtube and other sites, and I suppose the anonymity and fashion of hate made the place enjoyable. So I think the neo-nazis of /pol/ are all migrants from bigger trendsetters of the internet.

That's why I doubt 4chan itself actually influenced politics, there are bigger systematic shifts at play >>15198563

>>15205658
I think Innuendo Studios (if you don't mind your typical leftist youtuber) did kind of a good video about it; about how people tend to go from staying on your typical anime/gamer forum to radicalizing and getting not only into nazism, but also into all the theories that have accompanied nazism in the last few years (Pizzagate, QAnon, or similars).

>>15205658
Yeah but I'd wager the youtubers you watched had been using 4chan for a while. But yeah, on the broader scale, something like "Donald Trump was memed into office" is a clickbait thesis

>>15205628
>hurr durr let me say some stupid shit
http://thezog.wordpress.com

stfu bitch

>>15205587
Milbank himself is a super interesting fellow. You can follow him on Twitter, if you want. He doesn't talk as much about "radical orthodoxy" these days. But he does 100% believe fairies are real.

>>15205620
What I'm saying is that the internet allows more information to spread, in general. It puts everything else to shame because of how easy it is. It's like 1000x any other form of media. Of course lies have always existed, but the rate that which they spread is different. That's what I mean. I'll let you believe it's the jews, though. It's your right.

>>15205638
I say all social media, actually. 4chan is social media. You're wrong.

>>15205704

>>15205709
I am the one that said 4chan is social media you stupid motherfucker debunking your bogus claim, you really are legit retarded aren't you downsy motherfucker?

>>15205704
>Or are you just some bot incapable of saying anything that doesn't fall into the same 30 endlessly repeated arguments about the Jews/shills or 10 insults/passive-agressive comments?
I was right, wasn't I?

>>15205715
>hurr durr let me say some stupid shit
I was right, wasn't I?

>>15205303
This. Even despite its faults, /pol/ back in the day was more politically diverse and links were provided, from all different ideologies.

>>15205699
It started with a white replacement animation, and slogans like "DIVERSITY IS A CODEWORD FOR GENOCIDE". I think it was made by old-timer nazis or stormweenies who hired out a professional animator for it. I don't really see much 4chan influence on it.

>>15205683
I'm aware of similar hypothesis, and I can see some lonely /r9k/er seeing a meme on white genocide or wooden doors, being unable to refute it, and the meme feeding him a sense of indignation and taboo knowledge, and radicalising him towards /pol/. But I can also see people who were here for anime or hobby boards not falling for this bullshit and telling /pol/fags to go back to their board. I don't think 4chan facilitates thorough discussion, so if existing users on this base get radicalised, its by memes or links to dense youtube videos like the one mentioned above.

I'd say its youtube radicalising not just 4channers but young men at large and causing societal shifts. After all the website profits from outrage clicks, its algorithm can throw you into a rabbit hole of endless content, and until recently they've been operating with no accountability to the public.

>>15205726
>>15205303
*Although to be fair, this is not just /pol/ that has this bait issue.

>>15205726
it went to shit because all the glownigger shills invaded it tourist

>>15205658
Stormfront got shut down, nothing is new though old gay neo nazis have always groomed retarded young males

>>15205730
Whites are literally being replaced in their own countries. This statement is objectively correct no matter what you say

>>15205730
the truth tends to radicalize and polarize people when they discover it cuck

>>15205735
>>15205744
>>15205722
>>15205747
Are you guys NPCs?

>>15205747
>>15205744
>broken record

>>15205714
I mean 4chan is part of that umbrella. I'm not even sure what you're arguing about. All social media+mainstream media, they're all bad. Calm down, by the way.

>>15205348
>Then, youtube fag named I Hate Everything made a video on 4chan in the preelection period, 2014, which the posts archived therein indicate an unironic neonazi streak (though after the alleged stormfront incursion).
Holy shit, how new are you? Stormfront claims have been around since /n/ or /new/. Fucking /k/ in 2013 shows a sudden increase in (useful idiot) national socialism. Meanwhile other boards succumbed to more SJWism. I'm new, but I'm still surprised to this day that there are so many who clearly only started using 4chan in 2015+.

>>15205751
>say something retarded and dishonest
>people explain to you that youre retarded and dishonest
>hurr durr broken record
You dumb lying cowardly faggots

>>15205707
I didn't know about the fairy shit, that's pretty hilarious. From the way /lit/ portrayed him he always came out as sympathetic and reasonable, quite the opposite of what gunenonfag and avatars has done with guénon.

>>15205741
I was radicalised back in 2012ish. Nazis still had websites back then

>>15205747
nice quote from your superhero fag

>>15205744
the reality of the situation is complicated and debating it is not what this thread is for. But 'Evil powerful group out here to genocide us n shit' is rhetoric used purely to pull wool over people's eyes

>>15205780
China puts their Muslim minorities in concentration camps. Europe lets them run around raping and committing crime, while apologizing for being racist.

Stick your fucking head in the sand some more why dont you

You know what's funny? I hate how shitty /lit/ has become. The same goes for /sp/, and /a/, and /co/, and all my other regular boards.

But I genuinely cannot see myself ever leaving 4chan, because as far as I'm concerned the entire rest of the internet has lost its fucking mind. Even with all that 4chan has degraded, I feel like I can still come here and actually see things clearly, in an unfiltered way, even on a board like /pol/. I feel like the entire rest of the internet is filtered through propaganda, agenda, and ideology in a way 4chan still really is not. Or, if those things ARE on 4chan, they're here in a much lesser way than they are on the modern internet of Facebook, Google, Amazon, Twitter, etc..

The mainstream internet scares the shit out of me. People are insane on the rest of the internet, they are total sheep who believe what they're fed by all the various celebrities, corporations, brands, and more. 4chan feels like one of the handful of places where I can still come and get fully honest human interaction. The only other places I've found where I can communicate like I do on 4chan are obscure message boards and very strange corners of Twitter.

>>15205747
>>15205751
>>15205752
continue

>>15205834
I love the honesty that there is around here, really. I think there is no other place on the internet where people are pushed into being elitists (the intentions don't matter).

For instance, I hate going into twitter or reddit and looking to the typical "Look at this scene of MHA omg it's the best anime ever existing" or "pleaaaase we need no game no life 2 it was so goood". This is the only place where people maintain their cynicism, even if it's just to be contrarian.
I'd just hope /pol/ gets deleted or something sooner or later. I hate what is happening with all the boards, I'm tired or arguing basic stuff in /sci/ just because someone loves to push a /pol/itical idea or to go to /tv/ and just watch sneedposting 24/7.

>>15205834
>>15205890
I agree. 4chan is an extremely shitty place but it is still open to a manner of discussing things that is very scarce everywhere else on the internet.
It still demands some discipline in order not to be a waste of time, and I probably wouldn't recommend it to a teenager.

>>15204985
Very interesting.

>>15205182
Time for your Ritalin.

>>15205890
>I love how honest people here are
>also I want mods to ban people with dissenting opinions from my own

>>15205939
Yeah anon, I would love to argue climate change for the 9999999th time. Even though I debunked you last thread, and even though you are showing the exact same "arguments" and graphs.
This is the deal with /pol/ fags, if they lose the argument once, they always have the next thread to start all over again.

>>15205959
you can't model the climate you faggot

>>15205914
Remember: you have to be 18 years old in order to post here.

>>15205683

I know, right? That shit's cray cray: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iTb0ta5_84

>>15205231
Lmfao

>mfw pinko pseuds call every racist a nazi
You are directly responsible for the rise in nazi symbolism. You have changed the meaning of "nazism". The swastika now enjoys the same status it does in russia, where it is a common symbol of rebellion and adored by criminals. White supremacy is as American as apple pie and always has been. I've only been on 4chan since '06, but it's ridiculous to see r*dditors denounce any post contrary to their own personal world view as "/pol/". I like reading books and I hate niggers. Deal with it.

>>15205757
You have awful reading comprehension.

>>15205890
sounds like your real problem is with cons00merism. The only solution, in that case, is to just stop using social media (and that includes 4chan). That is the final, and really the only pill

>>15205246
I'm involved with a Jewish online group that doxes neo-nazis and I could only wish they were organised and savvy enough to spam 'take your pills' to every stormfag on 4chan

>>15206104
>im involved with exactly what you said I was but it's actually not real
dumb kike

>>15206111
It is real. And you're losing. Every wh*tie out there is being gaslight as we speak.

>>15205077
You sound exactly like an SJW & prove his point. Stop whining like a victim when someone points out a failure (which is a failure on all sides). Fuck being a partisan, if the Right want to get better, introspection & self-criticism want to happen. It doesn't matter who started it, it's about what's happening now.

>>15198563

>>15206104
Hey dude, I'm no fan of Nazis but that sounds gay. hope you're baiting

>>15205378
you basically repeated what I said though

>>15203558

>>15205704
Every single link on that website is broken

>>15199035
where? have you seen so-called neonazis bro? it's just LARPing retards amusing themselves. i don't think there's any legitimate ideology there certainly not anywhere near how the media makes it out to be. you can't really pin real-world actions of the mentally ill and disgruntled on a literal meme that isn't even popular.

>>15201724
>>15198854
Yea Islamic extremism and national '50 cent army' types are of way more importance, especially because these are not moderated at all. You can see that shit everywhere. The scary thing is it's not spam bots but real people. You can't express a mildly conservative view on Twitter without getting banned because certain ideologies are in bed with its administrators but then you have literal ISIS recruitment on twitter at the same time. The overfocus on meme-tier 'movements' is just Westerners and their media patting themselves on the back while real shit happens unabated.

>>15205552
>>15205625
>/pol/ was far more reactionary and radical the in the early days than now
This. I remember 2013-14 (between the 2012 election and gamergate) /pol/ was really into Evola and NRx blogs.

>>15206633
>You can see that shit everywhere
haven't seen a successful china shill in years. Even in commie forums they're told to fuck off and nobody takes them seriously. Islamic terrorists have been as successful as ever with their recruitment, but they have little influence on westerners. Geniuinely curious about the ISIS recruiters, can you provide some examples? Cause I've never seen that on any social media site, though it wouldn't surprise me.
>You can't express a mildly conservative view on Twitter without getting banned
I see maga hashtags and conservative posts with anime avatars on twatter all the time. Even on trending.
>The overfocus on meme-tier 'movements' is just Westerners and their media patting themselves on the back while real shit happens unabated
the reason some sites are enforcing strict rules against these movements is precisely because this "meme" turned into a real issue, with the proven russian bots and the rise in mass shootings and domestic terror attacks specifically associated with and endorsed by this "meme". If ISIS started causing americans to kill schoolchildren, I guarantee the focus would shift to them.

>>15206104
Kill yourself kike, your race is a blight on this world

>>15205959
Assuming most /pol/acks care about climate change is a big assumption. I think you're being disingenuous in thinking that a small specific set of people you encounter is at all exemplar of a much greater mass. The fact that /sci/ is small and /pol/ is one of the most popular boards shows that. And it shows that your devotion to this "honest" thinking, when you want to remove a community based on a possible minority, is questionable.

>>15205023
Interesting view Anon.

>>15206010
>actually i'm just a racist u guys, not a nazi
you don't seem to understand. To us, you're the same parasitic fly on a different stage of life. You're stubbornly obnoxious, soulless, infectious, disgusting, sneaky but amazingly stupid vermin. It doesn't matter if you jack off to Hitler or Crowe, you feed on the same shit, and your ideologies boil down to the same thing.
>White supremacy is as American as apple pie
so was nazism before Pearl Harbor. Henry Ford was a nazi. You are the same breed of hateful retard, and I'm glad the Jews are keeping you down

>>15206104
>I'm involved with a Jewish online group that doxes neo-nazis
fucking based. Please save /lit/ from these thread shitting illiterate imbeciles

>>15207526
Arabic twitter is very different to enlgish twitter

>>15207607
then it's no surprise they're getting past twitter and the media. It's an entirely different world, doesn't influence the West and there's a language barrier to boot. Of course the US website is more likely to monitor rulebreaking US posts than arabic spam. His post seemed to imply ISIS posts and magashit are seen by the same people

>>15205052
>b-but le far right
FAGGOT

>>15198563
Tbh blaming "the alt right" on state department woketards at SA is pretty good for a meme

>>15200078
>(one of the guys who died in benghazi)
Based Glows taking out their own for knowing too much

>>15201705
This matches my experience.
I went from an-comm to more or less white nationalist fellow traveller.

>>15203624
These people are bereft of honesty.

>>15205834
>has become.
What happened to the old adage of "/b/ was never good"?

>>15205914
Being able to access 4chan is probably what has prevented me from just being an RL troll going around causing trouble all the time and monetising it
I recall some quote about how every word is an unfired bullet or something. (Perhaps by a commie?)
Every shitpost here is an outrageous statement I don't have to say RL. An outrageous action I don't have to inflict on polite society.

>>15206010
>The swastika now enjoys the same status it does in russia, where it is a common symbol of rebellion and adored by criminals.
To be fair, the swastika used to be like that in post-war New Zealand amongst Maori gangs, and in post-war America among prison gangs.

>>15201724
>Breivik
>Nazi
Aaaaaaaaaa
He was a Christian anti-jihad faggot
Other than Weev I don't think white nationalists /fascists want him.

>>15205023
>the idea that white males represent the big bad oppressing demographic of the entire world is an old cliché by now.
source on how old it is exactly

>That's the decisive shift, the loss of an underlying, implicit and collective feeling of invulnerability of the white demographic
that comes with a reason and that may be an increase in how much they are attacked, an shift in the overtone. the amount of time in media dedicated to social issues concerning minoriyies and directly or indirectly blamimg white men etc

fuck posting from phone holy shit this is awful

>>15207594
How exactly could you write all that and accuse someone else of being "hateful"?

>>15205053
Why tho?

>>15205100
There have been three pro-white shootings:
-Tarrant
-Roof
-The guy who shoot up the Tree of Hope synagogue.
That's literally it.

(Brevik was a Christian anti-jihad larper.)

The various letter NGOs (basically the ADL and the SPLC) have tried to meme that school shootings like that one done by Nicholas Cruz, and every killing in prison by a white gang member was a white supremacist terror murder.

>>15201571
Pretty much this. It was idol due to zeitgeist. Stop being conspiracy theorists when the change seems pretty apparent.

>>15205834
>>15205890
I've been here since 2009 and I can't imagine myself being anywhere else. I now hate places where having a handle and following etiquette to participate in discussion is mandatory. It all seems so contrived and sterile to me, as if everyone is constantly walking on eggshells and can't express their true thoughts on even the most mundane topics.
>"Look at this scene of MHA omg it's the best anime ever existing" or "pleaaaase we need no game no life 2 it was so goood"
This too. It all seems so goddamn fake to me that I can't help but think they just post this shit for likes and to be cute, and don't express any authentic enthusiasm at all. Reading Guy Debord has only exacerbated this feeling.

Or maybe being here for over a decade has made me myopic of the sincerity outside of 4chan(nel)? Who knows.

>I'd just hope /pol/ gets deleted or something sooner or later.
Yeah, and with such a precedent like that, we have another reddit. Good fucking job, numbnuts!

>>15205303
>but 4chan, specifically /pol/ is up there for exacerbating disinfo
Like what, exactly? What disinfo leaves pol and becomes part of the broader world?

>>15207968
add the Texas shooter, Breivik was only larping as a Christian Zionist to deceive the media and they bought it

>>15207980
Q

>>15207988
Fair point. That is indeed cringe.

>>15207985
I found his name; it's Patrick Crusius. He's the guy from the incel image.
I'm perpetually disappointed at how these people are so brain-poisoned by democratic thinking that they shoot at random civilians

>>15205834
I’d recommend finding a “literally who” Board on 4 Chan in a topic you are tangentially interested in and start posting there. The smaller corners have a good, more serendipity feel to them while still calling you nigger.

Also, agree.

>>15208059
Thanks you nigger

>>15206087
This

>>15205959
>Yeah anon, I would love to argue climate change for the 9999999th time. Even though I debunked you last thread, and even though you are showing the exact same "arguments" and graphs.
That's just the nature of imageboards. Normal forums will delete your threads because the same subject was discussed in some thread two years ago, but here we can discuss things over and over interminably. If you don't want to talk about it again just ignore it.

>>15205834
>>15205890
>>15207974
I don't care much for politics, but after using 4chan since around 2006 I realize that in practice I've become something of a free speech absolutist. I want to be able to say anything that I want to say. If I can't do that, if I can't speak freely (even if it isn't particularly relevant to what's being discussed) then I can't interact comfortably in a given space. When I talk about my hobbies online I don't want to feel like I'm at work and that I need to watch what I say so that I don't offend someone.
tl;dr I need to be able to call people niggers in order to talk about books

>>15208073
You are welcome nigger. My go to is /m/. I’m not even really into mecha anymore, but it’s usually a pretty chill, slow board that’s mostly good natured and sans the most annoying people. I just like the convos more than the gundams.

>>15208269
>I need to be able to call people niggers in order to talk about books
Everyone does, no?
As soon as you start drawing those lines, creative thinking becomes impossible.
I do feel the urge to hail victory in public

>>15208269
this. the other day someone on /g/ asked someone what degeneracy meant to them and i gave him my definition and i got banned because it was not a tech related post, i got unironically offended.

>>15198563

What's with all these leftist propaganda threads popping up all of a sudden?

>>15208443
I just made all kinds of disturbing statements about mods and I haven't been banned since then. There's no bully who isn't afraid and who doesn't secretly want to be pressured to do the right thing.

>>15198563
moot is the gavrilo princip of the 21st century?

>>15208443
I also highly recommend posting screencaps of your unreasonable bans alongside such statements. Ime, this will embarrass the mods into being better.

>>15208443
Every once and a while some faggot mod will ban someone for off-topic shit or racism but you get a way with it 95% of the time.

>>15208482
The mods are also so capricious with their bans that there's no added risk for posting whatever the fuck you want.

>>15208496
I think they just do it to keep people reminded that the site is actually moderated so that they don't post illegal shit.

>>15208453
Haven’t you noticed? Lit goes through bidaily orientation changes. First you will have generally good few threads on Christian lit with almost no trolling, then 8 hours latter there is a bait Christ thread full of trolling. That gives rise to the traditionalists coming out it droves for their 8-12 hours. Then the leftists have their turn. There then is a tranny intermission of 2 hours for the changing of the guard to the general philosophical threads. Then in 10 hours all the aforementioned groups whine about neoliberalism together. Then the cycle starts again.

>>15208531
What would a tranny have to whine about in neoliberalism? That their surgeries aren't free?

>>15204985
I find interesting that they speak more of the kkk, despite their organisation becoming more and more irrelevant.

>>15205834
True I wonder why normie hate freedom of speech that much.

>>15208540
Yes.

But regardless, trannies usually don’t stay long enough for that part. Like I mentioned, they usually only come here transitively when a discord gets interested in a thread about contrapuntal or something. They are like traveling Gypsies.

>>15207594
You are dumb as fuck. Racism and nazism is not the same thing. Nazy are racist but not all racist are nazy. Racism is just believing that not all race are perfectly equal in everything.

>>15206302
>>15207533
>nooooooooooooooo just because we call for a brutal elimination of your race doesn't mean you can doxerino us to our family and employer who can hold us accountable

>>15208583
We are frontiersmen and they are latecomers. There isn't room for men like us in civilisation. Some of us who were here from the start tamed the net. Others followed after them in callousness or ignorance.
But like the normalfag gentrifies, or demands law after moving to the Wild West, or how states stamp their rules on frontiers that open, so too did the normalfag and their sherpherds come down on us, with sheepdogs resembling we wild dogs and some descended from us not too far back.

>>15208269
Same other than literal pedophilia and even it has to be real children, I think every kind of speech should be allowed. Being on 4chan has a lot to do with that I guess.

>>15208602
>why no, I haven't considered trying to get my own people to stop behaving like psychopaths toward the goyim, instead I'm going to blame the goyim for getting frustrated and aggravate them even further
>how could this strategy possibly go wrong
You people are dedicated to fucking with goyim more than to self-preservation.

>>15208612
Ironically I am a somewhat latecomers. I arrived in 2016 but I was on French forum before where bad speech was very common. I came to 4chan when the moderation started to be too agressive. I guess 4chan allowed me to support even more free speech by being able to speak with plenty of different kind of people.

>>15206104
I'm involved with a group online that exposes and doxes you demonic hebes, looks like we do a much better job than you. Stay salty cuck

>>15208639
yuropoids and other goyim have oppressed us for 2000 years yet I don't call for their destruction like you do to us

>>15208642
nice LARP anon, who are you going to doxx us to? 'Ay yo your employee is jewish', and what?

>>15205565
because there is a market for it among the kind of people who go on 4chan-related facebook groups

>>15208668
>he thinks we are worried about jobs
HAHAHAH just like a hebe only worried about shekels. our lists are for when we do door to door visits for the latter day saints to bring you to Christ anon

>>15208706
oh I see, so you're doxxing us straight to the police, hope you're careful with soaps mate

also nice skull.png faggot

>>15208019
>I'm perpetually disappointed at how these people are so brain-poisoned by democratic thinking that they shoot at random civilians

It's called mkultra

>>15208660
I'm not calling for that, but can you see how you don't leave goyim many options when your attitude is "we can be as shitty to you and your people as we want and if you tell us to knock it off we'll try to ruin your life - no we will never change"?
Also nice dodge.
And plenty of you *do* want us destroyed and work to make that happen, or at least work to fuck with us on all levels.
Also my Germanic and Scottish ancestors didn't do anything to you, you psycho. And you weren't obliged to be in Europe.
I can appreciate being salty about Rome burning your gay ass temple, but I see no extension of empathy toward us for the numerous acts of cruelty and damage inflicted on Europe in significant part by you people, or on white people, and goyim, globally.
Can you see how your position doesn't really give pro-white or pro-human or honest and inquiring people a lot of options?

>>15208540
They get angry if you call them a “Bernie bro” even if you’re another Bernie bro.

>>15198563
WHta an awful sub title

I'd like to read a 4chan analysis book that isn't about comparing it to modern politics and written through a progressive lens about how all of it is morally wrong and problematic.

>>15208920
Write it yourself?

>>15208551
KKK isn’t even a single organization. It hasn’t been one for over a century. The original Klan disbanded two years after it formed and everyone’s been using it as a V-style masks ever since. One faggot who pokes eyeholes in a bedsheet and walks around with the North Virginia Army battle emblem is the KKK.

>>15198563
they all suck

>>15208828
>"we can be as shitty to you and your people as we want and if you tell us to knock it off we'll try to ruin your life - no we will never change"
Nazis aren't just people telling us to """knock it off"""

>we're destroying white people
also not true

>we control the planet
then we wouldn't have to be proactively defensive so fucking punks don't come shoot up our synagogues

>>15199062
>but only like a couple times
because the incel ideology target group is weak by default. They could be a lot more dangerous if they weren't a bunch of manchild wimps

>>15208929
I possess the knowledge but not the ability or will.

>>15198563

>>15208531
...do you spend you're entire life here anon?

>>15209031
Not him but I've been here since 2006. I have 4chan open every waking hour that I'm not at work. I was a NEET for about eight years a while back and was here all day every day during that period.

>>15209045
damn but i kinda understand it though. I've been noticing it now during lockdown how additive this place really is

>>15208980
Who said you control the planet?

>Nazis aren't just people telling us to """knock it off"""
Ok, so what about everyone else who does just recognise unflattering things about Jews as Jews? Or is your definition of full exto Nazi anyone who does that? How do you treat those people better than extoposters?
>also not true
My guy, Mark Potok at the SPLC had a literal chart in his room counting down til when white people are a minority
It's pretty clear you wish us badly. And if you don't then you just don't give a fuck. In which case, why should we care about you?

>we wouldn't have to be proactively defensive so fucking punks don't come shoot up our synagogues
Shooting up synagogues is retarded, but I will say that your people generally prefer whites engaging in lone wolf violence to organising, which kind of goes to your absolute refusal to moderate your behaviour, even at the expense of individual Jewish lives. The level of spite toward goyim there is hard for a goy to fathom.

>>15209078
okay, what "behaviour" do you perceive us as having that isn't 1. found in every other group, or 2. isn't class based? xDDD

>>15209096
I think most of it is at the level of deliberate demoralisation. You people make memes that make white people hate themselves.
But I'm also not convinced that Jews *are* that uniquely bad. I am annoyed that they insist on declaring themselves uniquely without fault, even when that means slandering other Europeans, and they are quite obviously more nepotistic than Europeans.
But yeah, they're behind bad takes and I think the best uncoverer of this is Mark Brahmin.
It's the insistence on getting me to lie for you that is particularly irksome, along with the assumption that you're dindus when it comes to other peoples.

>>15209118
>they are quite obviously more nepotistic than Europeans.
there are italian bankers, lots of french finance workers these days, etc, capitalists all operate by nepotism, and WASPs are nepotistic among themselves, so you're indetifying behaviours caused by capitalism not borne out of race or culture


>I am annoyed that they insist on declaring themselves uniquely without fault
jews criticise themselves all the time, there are plenty of jewish philosophers with scathing critiques about other jews


>I think most of it is at the level of deliberate demoralisation. You people make memes that make white people hate themselves.
that's just liberalism, you find it among every group, and there are jewish liberals who hate themselves too, we call it "performative judaism"

>>15209096
On top of that, you people do have a tendency toward combining the bad traits of other groups, most of which are not uniquely Jewish but combine like the power rangers into a blight.
Whether that be the ignoring of health regulations of Chassidim, or the insistence on kvetching and bonding through shared wretchedness, or the urge to undermine the cohesion of surrounding societies, or the treating goyim like an antfarm you can run sociology experiments on, or the getting whypippo hooked on opiates, or being a big part of the oriental opium trade in the 19th century, or being slavers, or slandering white people and blaming us for all ills, or posing as white people when you don't identify that way to encourage self-destructive behaviour, or encouraging retarded ideas like Christianity and Marxism. There is a long list and Jews seem hellbent on refusing to acknowledge that their Jewishness has anything to do with the bad actions of Jews, and instead interested in attacking anyone who publicly observes any of this. Which white people don't do, so it is jarring to see this as a white person. Particularly when Jews are highly vocal about the invented, spun or real misdeeds of white people.

>>15209170
kek are you a commie ? Make me think about churchill speech that a jew was weither a bolchevic or an zionist.

>>15207628
>whiny and ineffectual retort
Way to prove my point.

>>15207924
Interesting take. 4chan is a bit of a containment site, but like all containment places it also creates echo chambers.

>>15207930
Can't deny it's an appealing symbol (and extremely ancien, it's a bit sad it it cannot be separated from nazis now).

>>15207943
Gandhi was already saying there is no difference of nature, but only of degree, between imperial Britain and Nazi Germany. This was in the 40s or perhaps earlier.

>that comes with a reason and that may be an increase in how much they are attacked

It does but I'd argue it's more the combo of losing the status of unchallenged superpower (the US is still a superpower but it's losing ground and rivals are arising) and lowering fertility rates plus increases in immigration than any kind of attack or conspiracy. Granted the abrasive discourse doesn't help but I believe it's more a consequences than a cause, and more a niche thing than it appears.

In a sense the big catalyst for all this anxiety is simply your overexposure to rapidly-changing, endlessly babbling media outlet. 4chan and fringe website and alternate news source are not any better than the mainstream in that sense, they're also feeding the hysteria whirlpool.

>>15207974
>they just post this shit for likes and to be cute
Yeah that's mostly it, it's just annoying mannerisms.

>>15209170
>jews criticise themselves all the time
Maybe around other Jews. Around goyim it's almost completely a wall of silence around this.
What are the Jewish critiques of Jews anyway? That you don't fill enough of your astonishingly self-centred religious commandments? That you don't push hard enough to make the world comfortable for Jews?
Otto Weininger might have been sincere. Gilad Atzmon (although ofc he doesn't do biological critique, while Jews will make biological supremacist arguments).
Karl Marx's critique of Jews is actually factually wrong and opens up more opportunity for Jews to deny their Jewishness.

Your race denial is very suspect. And I don't mean denial that genetics cluster into what we could call races, or denial that these clusters resemble the anthropological categorisation of races. I mean you seem to be denying that Jewish behaviour has any biological basis, which is just absurd. All groups will have a partially genetic basis to their behaviour, particularly a group as inbred as Ashekanzim, or that has adapted for the niche of being a Jew.

>>15209246
> it's a bit sad it it cannot be separated from nazis now
I don't care to let Nazis live rent free in my head that much. And they did plenty of cool things, so it's not a negative connotation except to people in the current regime who also set (a portion of) public opinion.

>>15208600
>nazy
Somehow this sounds like a Hungarian Jewish version nazism.

>>15207985
>Breivik was only larping as a Christian Zionist
This is possible, but evidence?
I'm also not necessarily sold on the assumed therefore after that, that he was a pro-white person.

>>15208828
>my Germanic and Scottish ancestors
>le 56% face intensifies

>>15209299
I did not read his book, but for what I read and understand his primary thought was about islamic replacement. I think he wrote in his book that a non white who is against islam could be accepted in his country. You need to take in account that he was living in europe and that most of our non white immigrant are muslim.

>>15209118
> I am annoyed that they insist on declaring themselves uniquely without fault
Confirmed for never having read Jewish Scriptures. It's full of stories about times God punished the Hebrew because they were behaving badly.

Until very recently (less than 20 years, which is nothing compared to the length of European history) there were more anti-Jewish Jews than anti-Whites whites. See Weininger, Kraus, Marx...

>>15205052
>This exemplifies a change in vocabulary much more than a change in spirit.

There's no reason to read more beyond this one sentence.

Stop.

>>15209325
I don't see why we should go from him being publicly ok with non-white immigration to him being pro-white?

>>15205052
I think it only shows that the new forms of power aren't left or right ideologically, it is a production of knowledge, that ascribe new ways of identifying as a victim, production of reactive politics

>>15209329
And yet apparently absent of stories where they're punished for treating *non-Jews* badly, and actually filled with stories where they do just that, including going exto.
Marx might have said unflattering things about Jews from a *class perspective*, but not a biological or even religious perspective.
Kraus I'm unfamiliar with. What did he say?

>>15209329
I'll grant you Weininger. I'm unfamiliar with Kraus. That's like one or two people in the twentieth century.
I could also I suppose include Weev and Bobby Fisher as mischlings (or in Fisher's case, a possible full Jew who thought he was a mischling). And I've known a guy who knew a guy who was Jewish and had a very negative view of Jewish people.
My claim is that this is highly atypical behaviour for Jews from what I've seen.
But beyond that, my problem is with more anti-gentile, anti-inquiry, anti-white Jews than just average Jews without much power.
It's Jewish intellectuals who slip in the poison and small numbers of Jewish opportunists who act on it.
It is frustrating when we get people like the one who entered this thread claiming that he works to dox critics of Jews. (I assume that his organisation doesn't exclusively focus on national socialists, although he shouldn't be meddling with political dissidents anyway.)

>>15209264
>Maybe around other Jews.
Nigga they were literal anti-Jewish idelogues of Jewish origins in the 19th and 20th century. They published books about how Jews had to assimilate or about how they were bad. You find an example of it in this very thread (>>15208642).
There are still vocal antizionist Jews to this day although they're getting scarce. But they were very numerous when Israel was created.

You simply don't know what you're talking about and I suspect you don't really care.

>Around goyim it's almost completely a wall of silence around this.
I have no problem criticizing Jews in front of my goyim friends, and I'm not the only one that does it. But criticism against all Jews is a bit too much blanket criticism anyway, Jews accross the world are simply too different. Criticism of particular power groups (pro-Israel lobby, Israeli government and military, academics, the press, etc.) are aplenty.

>Ashekanzim
Not all Jews are Ashkenazim, I'm tired of seeing this implicit reduction everywhere. You post read liked tired cliché after tired cliché quite frankly.

>All groups will have a partially genetic basis to their behaviour
All ethnic groups, but good luck isolating that genetic basis and relating it to complex social trend.

>What are the Jewish critiques of Jews anyway?
>Marx
Jews are greedy capitalists
>Weininger
Jews are feminine and weak and degenerate
>Kraus
Jews are too attached to their cultural specificity and should learn to just be standard Germans
>Any Jewish convert from Christian of Troyes to the first Jewish officiers in the Company of Jesus
Jews killed Jesus and failed to recognize him as their Messiah

Want me to continue?

>Otto Weininger might have been sincere.
I would hope so since he killed himself out of self-hatred.
>Karl Marx's critique of Jews is actually factually wrong
So what? Marx faked his criticism of the Jews (which was extremely standard at the time btw, so if he was wrong most goyim also were)? How many leaps how reasoning and baseless assumptions do you need for your argument to work?

I find it strange that when Jews praise other Jews it's nepotism but when Jews criticize Jews it doesn't count until the criticism is spot on. Do you believe a Jew is automatically omniscient about others Jews? If not then why is it surprising than an assimilated anticapitalist thinker like Marx has stereotypical views about Jews?

>I don't care to let Nazis live rent free in my head that much.
It's not about you, it's about an ancient symbol being deconsidered and rendred unusable.

>And they did plenty of cool things
So did Stalin and Hernan Cortes, but we can agree they all are pretty unpopular and unpalatable right now.

>so it's not a negative connotation except to people in the current regime
So practically everyone? That like saying "making deals with the devil wasn't a negative connotation in the Middle Age except to Christians".

>>15205208
is enimity a dated spelling for enmity or is it an error? Can't find this on google.

the realpolitik is bodybuildingforums and salo

>>15209422
I notice that you've gone out of your way to not acknowledge any of the valid points I've made and have locked on to anything you think you might be able to quibble away.
It's frankly quite characteristic behaviour for your type of person.
>I have no problem criticizing Jews in front of my goyim friends
And do you criticise them as Jews or relate your criticisms to their Jewishness (whether cultural, religious, historical or biological)?

>Not all Jews are Ashkenazim,
Not what I said.

>Criticism of particular power groups (pro-Israel lobby, Israeli government and military, academics, the press, etc.) are aplenty.
Yeah, but almost never of those people or things *as Jews*. Where are the Jewish critiques of "Jewish academics" for being bad to goyim?
Whereas Jews will criticise things as white.
There's obviously a double standard at play.
Now, that standard is partly due to white people, and I think the whites are the white race's greatest enemies, but it's basically undeniable that Jews engage in critique of Europeans and whites as white that whites do not engage in against Jews (at least in institutional settings).

>when Jews criticize Jews it doesn't count until the criticism is spot on
Yes? If an intelligent Jew is landing on an obviously incorrect criticism of Jews, they're being dishonest.

I will also say that it's just more irksome when an outgroup criticises one's group than when one's own group does it.
That there's then the double standard piled on top of that, and Jews openly trying to derail the life of anyone who notices (or at the more extreme end get us treated as terrorists like the ADL and SPLC are pushing for, or imprisoned like in Europe [for example what Scottish Jews tried to do to Count Dankula for a joke]).

>>15209355
>absent of stories where they're punished for treating *non-Jews* badly
Not sure that's true, but does that change the point? Do Jews declare themselves uniquely without fault or do they keep worshiping a text that calls out their ancestor's flaws? It's one or the other, but not both.

>and actually filled with stories where they do just that
You mean conquest? Sure, that was standard until quite recently.
Don't get me wrong, most of what is depicted in the Bible is immoral by modern standards, but the same applies to most Greek and Roman history.

>What did he say?
He condemned the disgusting language of the Austrian press (this included many Jewish editors but nobody was spared his wrath). He's one of the most formidable orators and polemists of his time. As for Jews, he disliked their specificity as a culture and simply wished the Jews would consider themselves Germans above all else and not stand apart from Germans. He was rather surprised when he saw his own points being used by antisemites when Hitler started becoming prominent.

>I'll grant you Weininger. I'm unfamiliar with Kraus. That's like one or two people in the twentieth century.
Two is still more than zero especially when we're talking about influential writers. How many famous and influential anti-Europeans intellectuals of European descent were there in that century? And you didn't acknowledge the Christian converts, which is thousands of people including writers, theologians and officials.

Honestly Fischer strikes me a just a very intelligent schizo, I'm fine if he doesn't count.

>My claim is that this is highly atypical behaviour for Jews from what I've seen.
It's atypical of most people. But if we're talking stereotypes the self-hating Jew is much more of a thing than the self-hating white, although the 2010s have perhaps changed that (still the average self-hating white is a ridiculous pansy, while many self-hating Jews are still being read to this day, so I'd argue the latter category is more culturally significant). I suspect the self-hate thing is a Central European and even Austrian think. The Jews have just been better at it on account of being outsiders.

>problem is with more anti-gentile, anti-inquiry, anti-white Jews than just average Jews without much power.
Not sure there are that many of them, though I understand some circles are powerful (I'm thinking Israeli lobbies in the US). To me it's mostly just a distinct jewish subset of the usual circles of power. They are powerful, more than they should be, but are they moreso than WASP bankers or Chinese party officials? For the record I also despise them.

>we get people like the one who entered this thread claiming that he works to dox critics of Jews.
Yeah that was pure cringe, but doxxing is a common internet tactic, the Chinese and the Russian also do it. I understand your frustration with this, it's very lowly.
Anyway this exchange has been more civil than I expected, so thanks for that.

>>15209180
>Whether that be the ignoring of health regulations of Chassidim
religious conservatives are doing that everywhere


>insistence on kvetching and bonding through shared wretchedness
what? kvetching is an ashkenazi meme, in what way does it impact your life?


>urge to undermine the cohesion of surrounding societies
for what benefit?


>treating goyim like an antfarm you can run sociology experiments o
what pure bullshit, what experiements?

>whypippo hooked on opiates, or being a big part of the oriental opium trade in the 19th century, or being slavers
which white people also do?


>posing as white people when you don't identify that way
this is liberal nonsense but the belief of such people is that white jews both benefit from 'white privilege' but are excluded from it fully too


>encouraging retarded ideas like Christianity
Thats the dumbest thing I ever heard, jfc. christianity is blasphemy to our religion. We didn't encourage it, the roman empire did, and it resulted in us being persecuted.

>marxism
firstly jews weren't more represented among marxists than other minorities, and minorities tend to adopt marxism when they've suffered enough bullshit under the old system

>Jews seem hellbent on refusing to acknowledge that their Jewishness has anything to do with the bad actions of Jews
Because most of the time these accusations come from extremists gentiles who want to eradicate us and 'criticise' us in bad faith

>Particularly when Jews are highly vocal about the invented, spun or real misdeeds of white people.
Firstly Jews and other minorities are against the SYSTEM that gives whites unfair benefit, this isn't a racial / biological critique of whites

>are you a gommie
probably

>>15209264
>All groups will have a partially genetic basis to their behaviour, particularly a group as inbred as Ashekanzim, or that has adapted for the niche of being a Jew.
No, I don't believe in this nonsense race science. Life in human civilisation is abstract and complicated, and it's very hard to find any biological laws that would predict a person's path in life, let alone an entire sub-group that only evolved separately for a short amount of time. People's individual personalities and nurture conditions create much bigger variations in behaviour than some supposed inherited racial inclination.

Secondly, no serious activist criticizes the genetics of white people, because they don't believe in the racial pseudoscience that nazis do. It's not that white people are somehow inherently bad. It's that the system divides people according to ethnic classes, and white people tend to benefit the most from it, and are fed a sense of superiority that results in them angrily lashing out at minorities, e.g. synagogue shooters, black church shooters, pogroms, and so on.

Finally, Jews struggle a lot with internalised anti-semitism and other consequences of race pseudo-science. I've felt before like every time I've done a bad thing it was because I was jewish, when I am the same NEET asshole as everyone else on this site. So your suggestion that we consider ourselves flawless is pretty wrong

>>15209511
>you've gone out of your way to not acknowledge any of the valid points
Which valid points?

>quite characteristic behaviour for your type of person.
What type? Jews? People who argue over the internet? Avoiding an opponent's strong point is standard rhetoric btw, but if you want to call me a dishonest Jew, go ahead.

>Not what I said.
Yet they seem to be the only ones you care about. What is the part of biological determinism in Jewish converts or Beta Israel Ethiopians? What Moroccan Jew criticizes white people in institutional settings?

>And do you criticise them as Jews
Only to the extent that it actually relates to their Jewishness. If a Jew is being rude to me I won't say "he's rude like a Jew!". If a Jew is being communautaristic I'll say "that's the issue with spending too much time with people like yourself". Same with for instance the excessive attachment that Jews have for Israel (that used to be less widespread when Israel was created).

>Yeah, but almost never of those people or things *as Jews*.
Why would criticism of a political trend criticize people as an ethinc groups? Should any criticism of US foreign policy mention the fact that most American white probably have some black blood?

It seems you want all criticism of Jews to be about some platonic or biological archetype of "Jewishness". Criticism of Israel is criticism of policy and national identity and transnational identity. It is not in essence religious. Criticism of religious beliefs is not in essence biological (unless proof of the contrary), etc.
I wonder what you'd say if I asked you whether you regularly criticize Europeans and if, when you do it, you relate it to their European culture or their Germanic or Slavic roots or whatever.

>Whereas Jews will criticise things as white.
Only ideologues in the US, get your head out of twitter's ass.
I've never met a single Jew who would criticize people on basis of whiteness or while calling them out for being white (all the Jews I know would consider themselves white btw, to the limited extent that American notion of race apply). And I've met literally hundreds of Jews.

It sounds like you're giving too much weight to some hysterical parts of the American internet. Not saying they absolutely don't matter, they do to an extent, but they're not half as big as you seem to think they are, and they really don't represent the majority of Jews. If there's an ethnicity or group that Jews love to criticize it's Arabs.

>Jews engage in critique of Europeans and whites as white
Only in some parts of American academia AFAIK (if we're talking about institutions). And precisely those part that are generally thought of as useless and secluded (so not engineering and finance but literary studies).

>If an intelligent Jew is landing on an obviously incorrect criticism of Jews, they're being dishonest.
Or they're just wrong because they have limited experience of other Jews. Not that uncommon for the assimilated.

>>15209180
You seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder, one big indication of that is how you treat the most important cultural phenomenon in the past 2000 years of European history (Christianity) to be a retarded idea (and obviously an entirely Jewish one, because fuck the Greeks and the Romans who did most of the work right?).

At this point it's clear that you simply hate European culture so why bother?

>>15209422
>>15209511
*That there's then...
makes it more disagreeable.

>>15209514
I'm kind of tuckered out on this discussion. I'll post a little.
Basically, yeah, Europeans from what I've seen have tended to not criticise Europeans as European, which I would actually fault them for since I think there *can* be insight gained from criticism, including self-criticism. Probably the biggest critics (as opposed to just trolls) of white people and/or Europeans are American white nationalists.
I would disagree about the extent of the non-criticism however, particularly with writers like Joseph Conrad and Octave Mirbeau making criticisms that really stretch beyond colonialism and to Europeans ourselves as being particularly ignoble and hypocritical.
But probably the best critic of Europeans I've found is Marimba Ani. Even if she presents too much homogeneity in the Sub-Saharan African worldview (I don't know enough about it to say), her understanding of the civilisational worldview of the West (defined expansively as the trajectory of civilisation from Sumer in Mesopotamia onward into Europe and America) seems very good to me.

>Do Jews declare themselves uniquely without fault or do they keep worshiping a text that calls out their ancestor's flaws? It's one or the other, but not both.
I think you can see what I mean in the comment below yours:
>>15209547
My point was that the supposed criticism was purely group-self-serving and that Jews will rarely notice to goyim the pattern of Jews abusing gentiles and will fob this off, if they'll even acknowledge a specific instance, to one group of Jews.
I'm not convinced that all Jews act in one conspiracy, but I also don't believe in denying that Jews work together, particularly when there are many explicitly Jewish organisations that work to organise Jews.

You've been better and more insightful than other posters here, although I find myself in the odd position of being obligated to thank you merely for not being overbearingly dishonest.

I should also say that I don't actually dislike Jews despite all this.

>>15209626
>Jews will rarely notice to goyim the pattern of Jews abusing gentiles and will fob this off, if they'll even acknowledge a specific instance, to one group of Jews.
I mean what are you thinking of? There is no doubt there are nepotistic cartels of powerful bankers and other major asset owners who are jews, but this is how *all* major capitalists operate, by personal connection, nepotism, corruption and so on. Some happen to be jewish, most are white, and other groups also exist.

>there are many explicitly Jewish organisations that work to organise Jews.
Yes, although this is a complicated situation and it's not always voluntary. middle-upper class jews in america have a lot of wealth among them that they bestow to their younger members via organisations, so if you are jewish you might be able to get your college tuition paid by them, but any community would do that if it could, and plenty of churches do this too. There are some groups specifically dedicated to providing legal coverage to jews, but its not like they can manipulate the law, just provide competent laywers. And finally there are BIG money funds that are tied into the israeli & american government, for example organisations that try encourage zionism among jews, by sponsoring birth-right trips there for youth, there are private right-wing jewish organisations not democratically elected by israelis that shill for annexing the west bank even though they wouldn't have to be the ones fighting for it, and so on, ... but still, these are criticisms that require socio-economic analysis not race science

It's funny how every single discussion on 4chan even tangentially related to politics degenerates into antisemitism nowadays. I'm not delusional, I still have infographs from the pre-Trump era when I was a little underagedb& /pol/tard. It'll be interesting to look back on this site when it's gone.

>>15205709
You literally adopted and repeated his position after he debunked your position then called him wrong. I have to agree you appear to suffer from some kind of mental retardation

damn ya'll niggas autistic

>>15208443
lmao get fucked

>>15204950
I've noticed the same, but I'm only in my 20s so I assumed it was just me growing up...

>>15209246
>Gandhi
that's just one person who the average US person barely knows anything about, I meant source on white males being oppressive as a general view, i'm not aware that it was a stereotype unless maybe on germans after ww2

>it's more a consequences than a cause, and more a niche thing than it appears.
sure it's a self feeding cycle to some degree, but what's clear to me is that 20 years ago nobody gave a shit about lgtb, trans, islamophobia and so on issues. they were groups focusing on those things but they were very limited, just like there are groups focused on rare diseases or coral reef defense for example. but the rare disease people are just as big today as they were 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, while the others now make up some percentage of US news and politicians talk about them and so on

i think the progressive movement and all these sjw issues are just the continuation of the left-leaning inclination of liberalism over time. after civil rights, feminism etc the next areas where there is alleged oppression are targeted. and social media exacerbates the garbage so the memeworthy outliers get all the attention and that's the cycle feeds itself and that's why the polarization