/lit/ - Literature

>>15200507
you're in for getting filtered

>>15200507
You're in for a story you already know even if you don't think you do, yet it has never been surpassed in any of the following imitations.

>>15200507
>translated

>>15200537
>translated by Alexander Pope

>>15200554
whats wrong with Alexander Pope?

>>15200507
screw Homer; Virgile gang rise up

>>15200507
read cowper's translation instead. pope is a great poet but not a great translator of the iliad.

>>15200554
Pope's Iliad is entirely by him.

>>15200665
He used like three dudes to help him do his Odyssey, and then reworded their more literal non-poetic translations.

>>15200694
> then reworded their more literal non-poetic translations
alright, what translation would you recommend?

>>15200554
>>15200665
>>15200671
>>15200682
>>15200694
Reading any translation (other than Muse->Homer) is bad.

>>15200722
Don't read translations read the actual poem.

>>15200732
I dont know ancient Greek and I don't want to spend 3+ years learning it, just so I can read the Iliad.

>>15200724
based

>>15200507
>the achaeans are winning!
>now the trojans are winning!
>now the achaeans are winning!
>now the trojans are winning!
rinse and repeat while the main character sulks off screen because his boss stole a girl he fancies

>>15200792
Tranny/female hands typed this post
>>15200507
The best fiction book ever written. I liked martin hammonds translation though

>>15200744
>I don't know ancient Greek

>>15200744
The Iliad is pretty important tho

>>15200507
>pope translation
You fell for the meme.

>>15200507
people in threads like these who post “read it in Ancient Greek” memes are retarded
If I spend 1-3 years studying and struggling to learn a language independently, what makes me more qualified to appreciate the meaning and nuance of the poem than trained expert classicists who have studied the language for 40+ years?

>>15200671
Aeneid 2nd half was boring

>>15201141
>memes
Not memes, reddit.
>If I spend 1-3 years studying and struggling to learn a language independently, what makes me more qualified to appreciate the meaning and nuance of the poem than trained expert classicists who have studied the language for 40+ years?
What exactly is even your point here? That you would rather read the poor transmittal of some random other modern guy's interpretation, and lose all poetry?

>>15201141
It wont take you 3 years to learn ancient greek. It will take you 3 years to learn modern greek. To be fluent and comfortable enough to read, understand and enjoy ancient greek will take you more than a decade

>>15201408
>some random guy
>what is the discipline of classics that has preserved the iliad for us to this day
this is what happens when you cancel school

>>15201408
My novice, casual attempt at understanding the language would never be as good as someone who’s spent a lifetime studying the language academically

>>15201675
Clearly something you don't care about.
>>15202337
So? Certainly you won't understand it through a translation! Cuck.

>>15200665
it's not Homer

Prototype of capeshit/shonen

>>15200537
>>15200554
>>15200724
>>15201408
>>15202468
For most people it simply isn't a good time investment to learn a dead language. Hell learning any language other than English already takes ages and is of decreasing worth considering companies will hire native speakers over even a very fluent learner any time.

>>15200507
tales of our great heroes

The best book you'll ever read, most probably. I continue to be amazed by its depth, and I've read no other work that does what the Iliad does so well.

>>15203026
>Jove

>>15203042
Older translations use the Roman names, the shift to using the Greek names is a relatively modern, and initially only academic idea.

>>15203026
I've tied myself to Lattimore and shan't be swayed.
Really don't like Fitzgerald desu.

>>15203072
The shift to Greek is good

>>15203026
Pope makes my dick hard

just read the Odyssey first

>>15202812
Rather, these are the epic degenerated, despicable exactly because they treat noble subjects so poorly
>>15203042
The Roman names are traditionally used by all classical writers and better suited to the European languages and the ear - preferring the Greek names implies a superficial acquaintance with the tradition

>>15203110
The Iliad is better though.

It's kind of hard to get into but some scenes are really interesting, like the battles and Diomedes and Ajax wrecking shit

>>15203162
Roman names are ass and inaccurate

>>15203163
WRONG

>>15203163
that's just your personal opinion there, but you and I can both agree that the Odyssey must be read before the Iliad

>>15203216
Are you old, or a woman? It is often said women and the elderly prefer the Odyssey, while young men prefer the Iliad.

>>15200507
>Ulysses = Odysseus

Just saved you a google.

>>15203231
Why? For example, Odysseus' encounter with Achilles in the underworld would lack much of its bite if one hadn't had the Iliad to become familiar with him. Not just know who he is, but what his character is.

>>15203162
The Greek names sound better
> preferring the Greek names implies a superficial acquaintance with the tradition
I already know Latin was traditionally used, get out of here with your elitist bullshit

>>15203232
I may or may not be one of those things. But why is this said?

>>15203231
Why? It happens after the Iliad

The Iliad is a bigger pain to read than The Odyssey but I think the emotional moments of The Iliad hits harder.

>>15203026
The best book truly, and yet you still refuse to undo the shackles of tr*nslation.

>>15203026
WHERE THE FUCK IS CHAPMAN

The best part of the Iliad is the interplay of the gods, which both the Odyssey and the Aeneid are lacking

>>15203259
A disdain for elitism betrays resentment and insecurity

>>15203232
I NEED TO KNOW WHY TELL ME TELL ME TELL ME

>>15200792
Absolute pseud post

>>15200507
You're in for one the greatest books ever written, maybe the greatest with the Odyssey. Please be patient during the catalogue of ships and strive for an in-depth reading on the emotional level. Don't let the epithets frighten you, you'll know them on time. I would recommend one book at a time for a first read.

It's a tale of anger and sadness, duty and hybris. It has some of the most violent scenes I have ever read, and also some of the most moving. Phoenix's plea to Achilles always brings a tear to my eye. This book deeply changed me, for the better I think, and I hope it will do the same for you.

Please read the Odyssey when you're done with the Iliad. It's very different — less intense, easier to read — but equally good for the soul.

>>15204997
>Absolute pseud post
He's right though. That's literally the motion of the book.

>>15205046
English isn't my frist language so maybe it'll be hard for me to elaborate, but I think it's unfair to represent the Iliad like this. The battle has been raging on and on for ten years when the Iliad begins. This is a setting, a background for the characters to deploy and react with each other, up and down the tide, again and again, on top of this "wind" you can feel in the book. IMHO, who gets the ultimate victory isn't the point at all; the Iliad is about who loses what in this absurd war.

>>15203745
Is Chapman's translation a good place to start?
I'm refreshing myself on Greek mythology, then onto the Iliad, then the Odyssey, etc.

>>15205797
with chapman (and with the iliad in general) it's not particularly the mythology that's an issue, any you need to know is often recounted or explained within the narrative.
But Chapman's Homer is COMPLETELY different to the other translations, and he presents the most vigorous poetry out of the lauded gang. Pope is a more formalised heroic couplets in iambic pentameter, but I find his language and diction is too artificial and definite of his mindset.
However, Chapman uses a freer rhyme, where it is literally just wherever he wants, and an iambic septa-meter. Where for a line Pope has 10 syllables and MUST have couplet, Chapman has 14 syllables and can decide not to rhyme if it spoils the poem. Overall I would recommend Chapman.

I would say the issues I worry one might have approaching Chapman (oh and there's a £3-4 wordsworth edition of Chapman's homer, it has Both Iliad and Odyssey) are:

1) He uses the Roman equivalents of names; A couple Anons are seething over something as little as that, if that bothers you both Chapman and Pope are out of the question as they both have this habit. I don't think this matters too much, you can easily know both the Roman and Greek gods, and while they aren't strictly interchangeable, you get the idea of equivalents.

2) Chapman's Language; I, again, don't count this a fault as much, but Chapman's time really shows. ( this is different to Pope for me, Pope was intentionally aping archaic diction, at least more than Chapman). Chapman was a contemporary of Shakspere. So understandably the language Chapman used is noticeably Elizabethan (like Shakspere, but still distinctly Chapman).

If those two "issues" are too much for you, because I assume you're fresh to this, then go for a more modern translation first. I emphasise first, because one of the best things about reading is reading what you want and what you like. Don't feel like you have to read one translation and only that translation because someone advised you to, understandably you want to save time in reading around and possibly don't wish to read multiple translations. But the difference between (taking two I've read myself) Pope and Chapman is really night and day.

Tl;dr Yes, Chapman is brilliant, just be aware translations can be very different, and tastes vary

>>15200722
You can still read Pope's because it’s still good, just realize that he's pretty much remaking it from the ground up

All translations are shitty, you can see that for yourself. It's the greatest book of all time and by far, it's worth it to spend a couple years learning its language instead of reading poor, cheesy, shaky, crappy imitations.

reading homer in english is fine, but reading the aeniad in latin is some of the finest literature you'll ever come across

>>15207553
Retarded redditor biasisms. You can read Homer in English but not Virgil? You're a stupid Latinoid shill and you are literally retarded. Virgil would have slapped you in the face for saying that. Now fuck off and learn Greek redditor.

>>15207563
Unlike Homer who has very strong plots that can transcend languages, Aeneid has a much weaker plot but has an amazing style and use of language that makes up for it and is also virtually impossible to translate

>>15202838
Reading centuries old literature isn't a "good time investment" either. I also like how you immediately go on about wage slavery like there isn't any other reason to learn a language. I wish bugmen and wagecucks would finally leave.

>>15207641
Lol no, Homer is better. Homer is impossible to translate and his poetry is simply better. You're coping because you're a barbarian.

>>15200507
People who shit on classics for being ''superhero comic books for the ancients'' are incredibly shallow, reddit tier bugmen, who wanna feel a dopamine rush for having ''superior tastes.''

Homer is no McCarthy or Murakami. That's not the point of reading Homer. The point of reading Homer is to get a glimpse into the origins of humanity, and an expression of our nature as how the ancients saw it.

What are you in for? Nothing, if you're just doing this for a chore, or to say you've read it. But if you take the translations seriously, and read analysis and companion texts alongside it, you will be given a treasure trove of insight:
1. An insight into fundamental archaic human nature, psychology, mythology, and what it means to be a man, a lover, a soldier
2. The foundational texts and myths of European civilization, and an exercise in historical thinking, a foundational work that is referenced in echos throughout every European and Western literary tradition, up to and including the Great American Novel, the Irish poets, and Burger Punk fags like DFW.

It is not merely an infantile catalog of events, and names and deeds. In short, you're in for something sacred.

I tread my copy of Homer like a Muslim would treat the Quran. I never read it if I'm not clean, or in the right state of mind, I never let it touch the ground, I never let other people damage it. When I read these classics, I like to do so after a bath or shower, eating the same kinds of foods my Greco-Roman ancestors would have eaten along the Mediterranean. I eat grapes, dates, pistachios, kalamatas olives. I drink wine made by my grandfather, and meade I made myself. Sometimes, I even put on lyre music, or archeomusicology albums to get in the mood.

>>15207765
*I treat my copy

>>15207765
I do that for most books I read or (even more) films I watch.

>>15207783
I do it with whatever culture I'm studying. I try to immerse myself in it. If I get to Japanese authors, Za Zen, Master Dogen, The Book of Five Rings, Oe / Abe / Mishima / Tanazaki etc... then I will be making Japanese dishes, and collecting traditional Japanese items, and practicing kendo.

But for now, I'm strongly sticking to the classics of the Western canon. Which means a lot of lamb-meat dolmades (vine wraps), a lot of risottos (pasta wasn't introduced until Marco Polo went to Asia, but one of the ancestral and national dishes of the Romans was a risotto dish), etc.... Sometimes make a huge platter of what I would eat in a day, and spend the day reading whilst taking the occasional break to pick at the food.

>>15200507
Incels, comic book heroes, pointlessness and a snozefest

>>15200507
Get the ebonics translation, it's easier to understand.

>>15207709
Hmmm, 20 hours at most to thoroughly read a respected translation of one of the most important texts ever vs 1000+ hours learning an otherwise useless language in order to understand this text a bit better.
Not really comparable is it?

>>15208420
reddit tier bugman opinion, someone who will never amount to anything because they are too caught up in feeling superior and smug, than achieving something

>>15208774
One of the most important texts ever.
And it's also not an "otherwise useless" language.

>>15200792

>"Rosy fingered dawn arose"

>"Agamemnon, shepherd of the people"

WTF lads I think i read the Riu translation of the Illiad and Odyssey. It was the penguin classics version

Did I fall for a meme?

>>15200722
Fagles is best translation

Guyzz what the best translation of Shakespeare into Portuguese???

>>15200665
A pretty poem it may be, but please, don't call it Homer.

>>15205957
Thanks for the solid reply, I definitely tempted towards Chapman since I find that style of archaic modern English beautiful, but, aside from knowing it will be more difficult, I'm slightly concerned that I might be missing out a bit on the original I guess poesy and intent of the Iliad, it being overshadowed by relatively speaking modern English notions of poetry, which I do love though. Also, while I'd prefer Greek names it's not a big deal, I'm already accustomed to Roman names being used interchangeably with them.
It's a tough choice, though currently I'm still brushing up on my Greek mythology since I haven't really focused on it since I was a child (btw Hamilton's Mythology has already pissed me off right at the beginning calling Demeter goddess of corn, and even using corn (when obviously it meant grain or wheat or barley or whatever) in contexts where corn is not equivalent to grain (sheaves of corn? Really?)), so I have a couple of days I guess before I have to choose.

>>15207765
I kind of do the same, though not to that degree. Alas I let my brewing lapse so I have no mead or wine, and my pomegranate tree died a few years ago. However I do do my reading in a comfortable chair under a fig tree, watching my garden as well as muscadines out in my yard. Fig trees make beautiful shade, and it's a fitting tree for the mood. I can't wait until the figs ripen so I can eat them fresh from the tree as I read.

>>15208955
Based.
>>15209003
No translations are Homer.
>>15209030
>not singing it at a Greek island

>>15208856
Did Dawn Arose press any charges? Sounds like rape

>>15209048
>>not singing it at a Greek island
Well before that I must, aside from learning ancient Greek, learn how to build a boat and in fact build it so I may sail from here in the Gulf of Mexico on to the Adriatic, though perhaps this is the best way and an appropriate preparatory exercise leading into the Odyssey, for who known how long such or a journey will last and what manner of adventures and obstacles I might encounter thereon.

Quick question, should I read the Epic of Gilgamesh before "starting with the Greeks"? Or perhaps after the Iliad and the Odyssey, even though they both were apparently influenced by it?

>>15209704
I did, it's short and very good so you don't need to ask such a question. It's not like reading the oldest piece of literature known to man is something that should be difficult to decide.

>>15209704
Make sure you read it in ancient Sumerian bro, you can’t really appreciate it unless you’ve spent a lifetime learning cuneiform

>>15209714
Alright but which translation should I choose?
>>15209813
Ah fuck, this is gonna take forever.

>>15210100
Not enough knowledge to truly advise you, there is this pdf free online if you want. I've been told there's other versions that are quite different though.
http://www.aina.org/books/eog/eog.pdf

>>15210100
Also, read it out loud, helps with the "epic ancient story" feel and remember most people would've heard it orally anyway, do the same with any ancient texts trust me.

every time i see a thread about homer i get happy because it's fun to talk about iliad or odyssey. yet every time it's a massive disappointment because it turns into a "is ancient greek worth it/which translation (to english) is better" thread

>>15210100
Andrew George has the best English translation

>>15210223
What's your opinion on the authorship itself?

To me it definitely is one man in a way, similar to beowulf, its some master poet reworking and recording these stories into one. Book 11 is one of my favourite, and even though its an "interpolation" I think it's just the book that Homer had the most creative freedom with, not having a previous source to work with.
I've toyed with the Idea of the odyssey being something Homer and his son worked on, or the son alone. It has a different tone and works with the thematic fatherhood, as Homer relinquishes the master poet role to his son.

>>15210360
Homer was blind, so like milton he had to recite it orally anyway when it was being recorded. I believe that Homer recorded Iliad first, before losing his sight, then dictated Odyssey in old age to the son

>>15207714
Where did I say that the Aeneid is better? Homer is obviously better, I'm just saying that Aeneid relies on its language to make it great whereas the Iliad is great in many different ways which makes translation actually possible.

>MOMMY MOMMY
>AGAMEMNON IS A BIG POOPY HEAD

>>15210360
I think you're talking about book 11 from odyssey, where they go to hades' island. I absolutely loved it. The part where he spoke with all those dead women made me realize there are many tales that I haven't read yet. I only knew Oedipus' mother. Also the part where Achilles said he changed his mind was great.

>>15210420
kek

>>15210706
Ah yes:

"Talk not of ruling in this dolorous gloom,
Nor think vain words (he cried) can ease my doom.
Rather I'd choose laboriously to bear
A weight of woes, and breathe the vital air,
A slave to some poor hind that toils for bread,
Than reign the sceptred monarch of the dead."

It's a moment that has struck me in every translation. I realised that Milton's famous "better to rule in hell, than serve in heav'n" is an inversion of this

>>15201161
Pleb.

Where do Aesop's Fables fit into the Classical Canon?

>>15200507
like 400 greek names that all sound the same rattled off in the first 10 minutes

>>15210420
Daddy Daddy that stupid king can't just take my own sons waifu away! Can you please please please doom hundreds of good and honorable Greeks to make that stupid king butthurt and make him give my sons waifu back?

>>15211663
what's up with their picky toes?

That scene where Odysseus and Diomedes sneak up on the enemy camp is total kino. Are other authors even trying?

>>15201161
Huh? Other than troy part and the battle in Italy, it sucks

>>15211816
trip to hades was kino

>ywn fight in trojan war with your brothers and have epics written about you and them
why even live

>>15207519
>he's pretty much remaking it from the ground up

>>15209003
>A pretty poem it may be, but please, don't call it Homer.

This opinion is a meme. Look at >>15203026 and it's obvious he's translating the poem, not just doing his own thing.

>>15203110
Iliad makes the Odyssey more meaningful