/lit/ - Literature

>>15171485
That's somewhat like reading a raw data set and hoping to understand the experiment, or trying to learn the importance of a function by the function itself. Imagine an MD student learning anatomy only from hospital x-rays. These would all be possible, but it's not really a good place to start. Someone already familiar with skeletal structure can easily read an x-ray; someone who does not know the human body at all will struggle to ever know what they're looking at. If you are genuinely curious and want to learn, start with a catechism and move into deeper theological works and the writings of Church fathers and doctors. As you read these, they will offer a lot of commentary on scripture and then you will have better sense of what to read, how to read it, and what it means. You'll also have a much better sense of what the faithful believe, since you will know what and how they were taught.

>>15171485
No

>>15171485
You will have plenty of time to read all the available translations... IN HELL!!!!!!!!!!!

>>15171536
So then would St. Augustine and St. Aquinas be a good jumping off point?

>>15171602
A good jumping off point would be reading a long list of your own depraved actions that you have written down.

>>15171602
If you're open minded and otherwise famikiar with beginning philosophy, Confessions is a great place to start. The Summa is not as difficult as its reputation suggests, but it would be worth your time to read both the Baltimore Catechism and the Catechism of the Catholic Church first, mostly as a primer. It is hard to go wrong with any of thr doctors of thr Church, but you will probably struggle with St. Therese and Gregory of Narek if you start with them. Therese is not complicated in style or in theology, but it takes a pretty strong grasp of prior theology to understand what is so remarkable about Therese. If you read her now, you would probably just find her childish. Gregory of Narek is a beautiful writer, but fits into a more Greek tradition of contemplation. Mystagogy is wondeful for believers, but not useful for explicit understanding.

>>15171749
These are great texts if you want to become an irretrievable heretic who follows fake Christianity. Good recommendations!

Yes. It is probably the most important book in history, and it is not actually that big. So carefully read it until you will complete it (yes, with all the lists and laws too).
All that said, it further reduced my already almost-nonexistent faith.

>>15171771
I hope you find your way back to the truth, anon.

>>15171749
Thank you very much for your thoughtful recommendations, I will be sure to note these works for further study.

>>15171811
You won't be thanking him when you're facing the consequences of your actions.

>>15171485
Varieties of Religious Experience by William James. You need to understand belief to understand the Bible.

>>15171867
This book is useful in identify deluded beliefs to avoid.

>>15171811
Based. God bless, anon.

>>15171485
Most Christians have never read the Bible, so no. The better path would be to listen to Joel Osteen.

>>15171602
>>15171749
>>15171771
>>15171811
Based Shitpost ignorers.

>>15171749
Just wondering, is New Advent a decent place to look up the scholastic catholic veiw of philosophy? I ran across it a few months ago and found it interesting. they talk about how specific philosophic veiws do or do not conform to the christian conceptualization.

>>15171485
You absolutely should. It is the living word of God of course, but not only that, you won't understand half of what is in literature, film, or art without it. Worst of all, you won't even know - like most people.

Just the other day I was reading John Maynard Keynes, "The Economic Consequences of the Peace," and the Bible was referenced, without explanation, several times just within the introductory segment - and this is a non-fiction work of economics, nevermind literature and the rest.

I read NASB the first time I read it all the way through, but I grew up on KJV. I've read a lot of ESV and some NIV, but lately I've been reading YLT and CJB.

Of these, I have enjoyed NASB and YLT the most probably, with ESV as next in line.

>>15171536
This is terrible advice. Start with the Word. Don't start with commentaries on the Word. This would be as poor advice if we were talking poetry, philosophy, or literature. Always start with source text never with commentary.

>>15171485
try MahaPrajnaParamita-Sastra by Nagarjuna

>>15172818
>It is the living word of God of course
No it's the living word of a bunch of jews getting punished over and over by "God" which is little more than a humanized big daddy figure for tribal semite gangs.
>>15171485
OP, skip all that superstitious shit and read Spinoza to find the true nature of God.

>>15172880
He specifically said Christian. Regardless of your own opinion of the religion.

>>15172891
Then read some of the OT by yourself, realize it's a bunch of nonsensical and superstitious crap, and read Spinoza to free yourself from the abrahamic cancer. St. Augustine, Aquinas and his fuck buddies are bible apologists who try to patch up the word of the semites handed down to them and still fail at making sense of it.

>>15172908
based (pbuh)

>>15172880
An unsurprising opinion in an atheist thread, but it changes nothing.

>>15172937
I am not an atheist in the slightest. If the only theistic positions you can think of are either abrahamite cuck or atheist edgelord you must have brain damage which is an ordinary christcuck trait.

>>15172963
That doesn't change the truth of my statement. If you weren't so filled with vitriol, you would have realized that.

>>15172996
I have nothing but pity for indoctrinated jewish golems who blindly believe in semitic superstitions.

>>15171485
Read OT to understand the bondage of the people it writes about, read NT to understand the liberty found within.

>>15173008
You assume much, and your pity takes a form more emblematic of a sadists need to inflict pain than any real compassion.

>>15172963
Dude, I’m pretty much the same position, but I dont got to shove Spinoza down people’s mouths. All you are doing is engaging in polemics. Not just polemics, but unwarranted polemics. The thread is specifically about Christian lit, not your gripes with it. I’m not christian, but I can still recommend books that are on topic.

>>15172818
It's not terrible advice at all. The Bible is 2000 years old and is partially the product of a people who had already existed for millenia beforehand with their own culture. It's not bad advice to seek the correct way to interpret the Bible.

On that note, why would it be a bad idea to start with a commentary on philosophy? With poetry and literature, I can understand the desire to form your own interpretation and see how that measures up to someone else's but I don't believe philosophy is to be treated like an art but rather, a science. I believe there's a precise way to interpret the written text due to how it was written and I believe you may need help seeing what was meant. Explain why seeking commentary is bad.

I think it's worth noting that I'm Catholic and do believe in an objective truth.

>>15173235
Because Jesus himself said that there would be false prophets and people that would tickle ears (telling you what you want to hear) so it's pointless to listen to them. Jesus was God's son, the bible was written by God. It's always best to study the bible and pray to God so you can understand it

>>15172239
Yes. To my knowledge, all the writings they have are accurate. Now, you jave to be careful with the Catholic Encyclopedia. It was at the beginning of Modern ideas being brought inti the Church. Some of the entries are really bad. It will be pretty obvious though. Sometimes it's exceptionally scholastic, and then suddenly there will be an entry that runs for pages with contextual framing before the actual item is discussed in and of itself. The version of Mystical City of God thst I'm reading even seems to take a swipe at the encyclopedia for its entry on the book. Still, it's a good source for seeing the mind of the church when it was written. And I've found their way of presenting the Summa particularly useful. It's meant to be a reference book, not a treatise; I almost never think this about texts, but having it online makes it much easier to read it for this purpose. It becomes so easy to simply take up a small concept during the downtime of the day.

>>15173295
He also said that there would be a single and visible ecclesia that would be guided by the Holy Ghost and last for all time. The propehets were men who, by divine inspiration, called for reformation and criticized the wayward people. It's true you are crying out in the wilderness and calling for repentence and reform, but you are urging people to leave the known truth, and you have no inspiration from God. Jesus was warning people about you. It tickles man's ear to think he can live without any in authority above him. It tickles his pride to think he can be a church unto himself. It takes humility to submit to authority, to submit to the church. It takes patiemce to learn and understand what the church teaches. You ask men to be rash. The church is unitive; you would have us divided. The pharisees heard the word of God from his very lips, but did they understand? How many heard the words of the Apostles and were saved? You do not call out in the wilderness like John, but Azazel.

>>15173424
>The church is unitive; you would have us divided
He also said many would claim to come in his name but he would reject them. If you really think the Church is gonna last or be forgiven then you got another thing coming. They've had fornication with the kings and have waged wars and raped children. That's exactly the type of people Christ and God would reject

>>15173235
Yes, indeed. Just ask all the various Christian sects which way that is.

All snark aside, there is one simple reason not to read commentaries before source works: it taints your experience of the work.

I'm of the strong opinion reading commentaries before original works weakens comprehension, intuition, and renders many people very unoriginal thinkers. If you want context for a work, read what came before it. In the case of scripture, there are many fine study Bibles, including Catholic ones.

In general, Catholicism has a tendency toward addition - often having appropriated pagan symbolism or ritual, adding many ritualistic things in general, and, in cases, some of them questionable. Not that this makes the average Catholic any less a Christian, of course. I have nothing against Catechism. From what I know of it, it is entirely Scriptural in teaching.

Anyway, the point is, sending people on a scholastic roadtrip before letting them read the Word of God is a wonderful way to keep people form reading God's Word.

Jesus didn't go to the educated only, but to the uneducated as well, and becoming Biblically literate or a becoming a Christian does not entail a marathon through the history of Catholic scholastic thought. Only faith in the blood of Jesus or a Bible to read - preferably both.

Let the man read the Word of God, and afterwards he can read all the commentaries and sub-works to his heart's content. Even better, he will have his own opinions before hearing those of the "learned!"

>>15173447
this is me: the orinial poster you replied to btw not >>15173295

>>15171485
Read Tolstoy's "The Gospel in Brief".

>>15173447
same guy again: I should add something.

Objectivity and Subjectivity are relative. The only Objective Truth is God Himself, and only God has an objective point of view.

We human beings may only obtain levels of objectivity relative to the subjectivity of things we compare our "objective" viewpoints to.

Mathematics is probably the closest thing to objectivity humans have, aside from the Word of God.

>>15173447
If someone wants truth there's just the Bible. I don't need larpers

>and afterwards he can read all the commentaries and sub-works to his heart's content
See that's the thing I disagree with. No one can add to the bible or take away from it and anyone who does so are doomed according to Revelation

>>15171485
is it worth reading the entirety of the bible?
No, don't do that. The Old Testament is evil, and the Word of the Lord in the "New Testament" was corrupted by the Church. Just read the very first Gospel, the Marcionite canon.
https://b-ok.cc/book/5301746/a7047b

>>15173235
Hate to keep making multiple posts to reply to you, but in rereading this post I realized one more thing needed mentioning.

The Bible is approximately 3000 years old, not two, and the Jews began when Abraham entered a relationship with God, not before, and much of their culture is God's culture for man, though obviously this was obscured once the Messiah was rejected. You can see interesting trends in the Jewish writings of the early centuries; unsurprisingly, around the springing up of the Gnostics.

>>15173528
Imagine believing this.

>>15173500
You're misunderstanding the Bible entirely.

Did you know there are multiple passages in the Bible which reference extrabiblical works, implying, therefore, the early church and Judaic audience were familiar with them?

And how do you propose to understand much of what is happening if you do not understand 1st century Jewish culture at all? For example, who were the Sanhedron, what did the Pharisees believe, and how did that differ from the Sadducees? Or of Greek thought, which Paul addresses?

Do you listen to a pastor and go to a church? Do you have your own thoughts on the Bible?

Saying no commentaries on the Bible allowed is akin to saying no one can ever have any insight on Scripture worth hearing, and that's just absurd.

I'm glad you value scripture, but there is a terrible trend in the Church to shy away from knowledge out of a fear of somehow crossing God.

This isn't possible. He weighs the heart, he said so. He founded the Earth by knowledge, he said so. He said when wisdom enters your heart knowledge will be pleasant to your soul, and he said perfect love casts out fear for fear has to do with punishment. Well, only His love is perfect, so you shouldn't be afraid to study scripture. He already placed all judgement for your sins on Christ anyway. In Isaiah, He promised he wouldn't even be angry with man anymore once the Messiah came, and God is no liar.

Don't be afraid of learning. He said His people perish for lack of knowledge after all.

>>15173539
You don't have to imagine it if you'll just give God a chance. Seek Him earnestly and He'll let you find Him. Then you'll KNOW, not believe.

>>15173528
>the Jews began when Abraham entered a relationship with God, not before, and much of their culture is God's culture for man, though obviously this was obscured once the Messiah was rejected
Oh brother, you're so misguided...
I once was like you're now...
http://www.marcionite-scripture.info/CB_The_Antithesis.pdf

>>15173447
>Even better, he will have his own opinions before hearing those of the "learned!"
This is precisely the problem. This is the spirit of Protestantism that must be rejected. This idea that everyone can form their own idea of how to interpret the Bible and the idea that this is somehow acceptable. Rather than being in submission to the Church Fathers, all you're doing is putting yourself first, seeing things the way you wish to or the way which makes sense to you. This is the seed of subjectivism that will ultimately kill your faith.

>>15173604
I was much like you are now. I don't have need of making a journey I long ago ended in victory.

>>15171485
just skip leviticus, numbers, and deuteronomy

>>15173565
>if you do not understand 1st century Jewish culture at all?
Jews killed God's son and they're still as greedy as ever. I understand their culture perfectly

>Or of Greek thought, which Paul addresses?
I am gonna read Greek works but mostly because it's fun

>Do you have your own thoughts on the Bible?
Sure. Mostly about the future like if we're ever gonna live on other planets. I find Isaiah 48:18-19 to be kind of suspicious. I'm wondering if there's something more to it than that. Plus if we do populate another planet then the question becomes how many planets are we talking about? Plus if God will ever bring back the dinosaurs. Of course this is all up to God but that's what I'm wondering about

>I'm glad you value scripture, but there is a terrible trend in the Church to shy away from knowledge
I don't really away from knowledge. I study all the time. But I know there's a difference between telling yourself "I'm doing this for God" and "I'm doing this for fun." Many people fool themselves into thinking they're doing things for God when they're really just doing it for themselves. The Church are wrong anyway because they don't even know the Bible. The Bible itself says this about them: "always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth."

>>15173455
Man, I never see this book rec'ed and I loved it. It’s a good “babby’s first gospel” read, even though I’ve since grown apart from and even disagree with it.

I’d still have to throw my vote into the Gospels. Matthew doesn’t need a commentary for a first read. None of them really do, though the more you understand Greek philosophy the better it gets.

>>15173611
Kill my faith!?!? HAHAHAHA! Impossible. My faith doesn't rest in "church fathers" who are mere men, but in God Almighty and in His Spirit. What need have I of the opinions of men when daily I converse with God and He reveals His Word?!

I'll tell you something true brother. A man saved by God from demonic possession who has since seen and taken part in miracles through the Holy Spirit will not lose his faith for any meaningless battle of doctrinal rhetoric and interpretation. Those are the empty battles of men, and I will leave it to them.

>>15173619
Oh boy... perhaps you should read that Bible more. I don't personally have time to undo all the things going on with you right now. I'll pray for you instead.

>>15173582
Yahweh is a demon, Shlomo.

>>15173653
A fanciful notion if ever there was one. Also, sadly, I'm not Jewish.

>>15173648
Why do you think I'm wrong?

>>15173653
>the Holy Spirit is a demon
Cringe. Repent.

>>15173700
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! NOT MY HECKING HOLY GHOSTERINO!!

>>15172908

>>15173632
>whoever rejects you, rejects me
If you cared for the Spirit of God, you would not exalt yourself above those whom God himself has exalted. For 30 years, Christ lived in perfect obedience to Mary; should you love her less than he loves her? For three years, God conversed with the Apostles and lived with them; can you boast of such a grace? God tells us to judge a spirit by its fruit. What fruit do you eat that makes your tongue so bitter? Why do you take pride in God's deliverance of your soul? Truly, you have done nothing, and he has done everything. It was not you who cast out the demon, but God. If he let you be possessed once, why would he not let you be possessed again, especially if you persist in your obstinacy and pride? If you will not serve God, do you not know you serve demons? If you would give your mind to them and your soul, what is it to God that they would have your body also? The First Commandment is to love the lord your God with your whole heart, your whole soul, and your whole mind. The second is like it, to love your neighbor as yourself. How do you do the first, if you do not the second? How do you love God if you love not whom he sends?

>>15171485
START WITH THE GOSPELS

>>15174626
>If you cared for the Spirit of God, you would not exalt yourself above those whom God himself has exalted. For 30 years, Christ lived in perfect obedience to Mary; should you love her less than he loves her? For three years, God conversed with the Apostles and lived with them; can you boast of such a grace? God tells us to judge a spirit by its fruit. What fruit do you eat that makes your tongue so bitter? Why do you take pride in God's deliverance of your soul? Truly, you have done nothing, and he has done everything. It was not you who cast out the demon, but God. If he let you be possessed once, why would he not let you be possessed again, especially if you persist in your obstinacy and pride? If you will not serve God, do you not know you serve demons? If you would give your mind to them and your soul, what is it to God that they would have your body also? The First Commandment is to love the lord your God with your whole heart, your whole soul, and your whole mind. The second is like it, to love your neighbor as yourself. How do you do the first, if you do not the second? How do you love God if you love not whom he sends?
based

>>15173437
>the gates of hell shall not prevail against it
You claim to come in his name, as do I. Which of us will he reject? Your teaching is found in no Saint and no scripture. You would make each man his own authority. I say there is only one authority--God. Remember, God did not reject the Jews, but they rejected him. For all their faults, for all their fornication, for all their idolatry, God kept his covenant. He gave them the Messiah, and in humility, patience, mercy, obedience, justice God suffered their persecution. If God stayed with Israel through the crucifixion, even praying for them as they died, how much more will he stay with the Church, to whom he has given greater treasures than were ever found in Jerusalem? The men who have so abused God's church will certainly suffer. But as God never abandoned Israel, neither should we ever abandon the Church. Even if every Bishop was like an anti-Christ, the doctrines themselves would be untouchable and firm. Christ tells us, when our teachers are wicked, do as they say and not as they do. He does not say leave them. He does not say forget what they have taught. He does not say go and interpret for yourselves. He does not say to establish an alternate source of law. He tells us to submit even to the bad teacher, so long as we do not take up what we know to be bad. This Christ did in his life and his death. Who are we if we do not do as Christ did?

>>15173711
Careful anon:
>Amen I say to you, that all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and the blasphemies wherewith they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, shall never have forgiveness, but shall be guilty of an everlasting sin. Because they said: He hath an unclean spirit.
You have not done it yet, but if you carry on in this way, how will you avoid such a sin?

>>15171485
Follow these courses to start:

https://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-145
https://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-152

>>15173503
>>15173604
Holy based!

>>15171536
>Read the propaganda before you read the word of God
These works are neither so good, nor so important as the Bible itself. The Bible will teach you how to be critical of the Church, the Church of course will not.

>>15171485
Yes, read the Bible, but don't read it in order, read the Gospels first; Jesus was a Rabbi, he knew how it all ought to be interpreted. Once you've read the 4 gospels, then go back and read the Old Testament.

>>15174708
>Your teaching is found in no Saint and no scripture
No saints because I don't pray to no saints but everything I believe is in the bible

>how much more will he stay with the Church
Meet great tribulation. It's not gonna end well for the church when they pray to Jesus and see him as a God. Jesus prayed to God and he never wanted anyone to pray to him

>>15174985
(1/2)
What you say is entirely and explicitly against scripture:

>[1] Let not your heart be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house there are many mansions. If not, I would have told you: because I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I shall go, and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will take you to myself; that where I am, you also may be. [4] And whither I go you know, and the way you know. [5] Thomas saith to him: Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

>[6] Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me. [7] If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him, and you have seen him. [8] Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. [9] Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, shew us the Father? [10] Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works.

>[11] Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? [12] Otherwise believe for the very works' sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do. [13] Because I go to the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do: that the Father may be glorified in the Son. [14] If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do. [15] If you love me, keep my commandments.

>>15174985
>>15175052
(2/2)

>[16] And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever. [17] The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you. [18] I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you. [19] Yet a little while: and the world seeth me no more. But you see me: because I live, and you shall live. [20] In that day you shall know, that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

>[21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. [22] Judas saith to him, not the Iscariot: Lord, how is it, that thou wilt manifest thyself to us, and not to the world? [23] Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him. [24] He that loveth me not, keepeth not my words. And the word which you have heard, is not mine; but the Father's who sent me. [25] These things have I spoken to you, abiding with you.

>[26] But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you. [27] Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, do I give unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be afraid. [28] You have heard that I said to you: I go away, and I come unto you. If you loved me, you would indeed be glad, because I go to the Father: for the Father is greater than I. [29] And now I have told you before it comes to pass: that when it shall come to pass, you may believe. [30] I will not now speak many things with you. For the prince of this world cometh, and in me he hath not any thing.

>[31] But that the world may know, that I love the Father: and as the Father hath given me commandment, so do I: Arise, let us go hence.

>>15175052
>>15175070
None of that refutes what I said about great tribulation

>>15175117
Stop looking for a refutation, and start looking for instruction. This passage explains how Jesus is God, and yet you cannot even see it.

>>15175242
God is immortal, he can't die. What you're saying goes against scripture 1 Timothy 2:5

>>15171485
Obviously. Any literate person should have read the Bible like any other foundational fictional texts, like the Iliad and Odyssey, the Greek plays, Shakespeare, War and Peace, and so on.

>>15171572
>>15171623
>>15171760
>>15171791
>>15171825
>>15171875
>>15173604
>>15173503
Fucking off you LARP'ing mental streetshitters

>>15175272
How do you say what God can and cannot do? How do you place any limit on God? You say I deny this line of scripture, and you deny ever line, for you deny that In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. You deny that the Word was made flesh. You deny that Christ is the Word of God. Christ calls himself the I Am. He says he has been from the beginning; he did not say he was before Abraham, but that he is before Abraham. There is one mediator, who is Christ, who is God and Man; it is by the hypostatic union that mediation is given. This Man, who is God, commanded us to listen to those he sends. He sent his angel to give glory to Mary. At Mary's request, Christ's evangelical mission is begun in Cana, and she commands the servants "Do all that he tells you." If you would take one line of scripture, and ignore all the rest, you are like a pharisee.

>>15175412
>or you deny that In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
Yeah it's talking about Jesus

>Christ calls himself the I Am
You're cherrypicking again. How do you answer the dozens of times he literally says he's the Son of God.

“I charge You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God.”

64“You have said it yourself,” Jesus answered

So they all asked, “Are You then the Son of God?”

He replied, “You say that I am.”

Again the high priest questioned Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”

62“I am,” said Jesus

>If you would take one line of scripture, and ignore all the rest, you are like a pharisee.
Yet that is what you're doing

>>15175412
>>15175479
>>15175304
>>15175272
>>15175242
>>15175117
>>15174985
>>15174757
>>15173503
>>15173500
>>15173235


All your pride and smugness will not save you when you receive your just reward in Hell.

>>15175479
There is no contradiction to Christ being God and being the Son of God. Is not the son of a man also a man? In the process of generation, like produces like. A flower does not produce a snail, but another flower. Conceived by the Holy Ghost--the Breath of God--Christ is both the Son of God and the Son of Man. These are both titles prophesied in the Old Testament. And they are both true, for Christ is both God and Man, being born of both God and Mary. If Jesus is not God, than the pharisees were right to say that he blasphemed in calling himself God. If this is true, then it was righteous for them to crucify Christ. Christ publicly called himself God. And he publicly called himself the Son of God (which was a title known to all). He called himself Anointed also. It is precisely because the Pharisees could not accept the Son of Man as the Son of God as the Messiah as God himself that they rejected Christ. Consider, the Pharisees and the Sadducces were the most educated men in matters of the scripture. These are not easy teachings to understand. In fact, it is impossible to understand without having a teacher, as Jesus tells us. And so, Jesus taught these truths to his disciples, principally his Apostles. He then gave it to his Apostles to teach all others. The Apostles, in turn set up successors, who we call the Bishops. The successor to Peter, who was prince among the Apostles, is the Bishop of Rome. Certainly we can say that the Apostles did not fail in passing on the truths of the faith. If then, the Truth has been corrupted, you must be specific--which men specifically failed to pass on their inheritence. Which Bishops specifically destroyed the faith? Generalities will not work here. Christ certainly gave the truth perfectly. And God chose the Apostles, so how could he choose men that would fail? Where was the Truth laid down and error picked up? If you say that this happened, then how is Christ's promise to the Church fulfilled--that the gates of hell would not prevail against it? Each time you quote scripture, you have given small fragments without context, without explanation, without any reference to the entirety of scripture. You offer it as though it is self explanatory, perhaps presuming that I have simply never read it; and yet, we can see that many people who have read the scriptures do not agree over what they mean; therefore, we can know that scripture alone is not sufficient; we can be especially confident in this when we find nowhere in scripture the command that we should accept only scripture; what's more, we are commanded to find good teachers. Consider, the scripture you rely on so much was given to us by the Catholic Church hundreds of years after Christ. It used to be that there were many versions, and it took great doctors of faith to know which were reliable. It was the generosity of the Church which caused the scriptures to be collected and unified.

>>15175610
>There is no contradiction to Christ being God and being the Son of God
Wrong John 6:44

>>15175508
If I am in error, if I am in sin, if I believe a lie, please brother, out of charity, and for the greater glory of God, please deliver me. Show me my error. Remove the scales from my eyes. What kind of kindness is it to gloat over my damnation? Christ prayed for his crucifiers as they killed him, pleading on account of their ignorance. If I am ignorant, please pray for me. If I am ignorant, please lift me up out of my misery. Please, I implore you, show me the same mercy God has shown me so that we may both be with him in heaven.

>>15175632
For all I wrote you, is this all you can answer? Again, there is no contradiction here. Or, if there is, I cannot see it. For my sake, explain the contradiction which is invisible to me.

>>15175657
You don't see the contradiction that Jesus, dozens of times, says he's God's son, that people should pray to God? It means they're two different people. Jesus, as great as he is, is still humble and admits that God is greater than he is! John 14:28

>>15172818
>>15174778
>just read one of the most difficult and most misinterpreted books of all times by yourself, it’s that easy guys!
It’s beyond me how could anyone delude themselves that much and become Protestant

>>15175675
I say that the Father and Son and Holy Ghost are three and one. As I see it, God and Christ's humility are even greater than you suppose. As I have been taught, God is the perfection of humility, as demonstrated by the fact that he made himself man and suffered for us, his creation. What's more, by his triplicate personhood, God is even humble and obedient towards himself. In fact, it is by this humble submission of God the Son to God the Father that is the source of all humility in creatures. So, I agree that the words of Christ make it clear that God the Father and God the Son are different persons, but the words of Christ also make clear that Christ is God and also that there is only one God. Either Christ contradicts himself, or there is no contradiction. If there is no contradiction, then Christ is the Son of God and he is God, meaning that God is three persons but one God. This is a mystery, but it has no contradiction in it. If this mystery is not accepted, then nothing else Christ says can be accepted. Either Christ is God and the Son of God, or else he his the worst false prophet to ever live. Of course, we can see by his works and his miracles, that he is loved by God and is not false. Therefore, despite the seeming impossibility, we must accept that God is three persons in one God. After all, what seems impossible to us is like nothing to God, who is I Am. If my reasoning is bad, could you please identify where I am mistaken?

>>15175508
You know if you were right, your smug sanctimoniousness would put you much deeper in hell than any of these imaginary people you rant at
Good thing you're full of it, huh?

How can the Father give birth to anyone who does not share in His very Divine Being? Could a human's mother be non-human?

NGL!

In this quarantine, being all alone, thinking about death all the time, I am indeed considering the idea of God and Christianity. It IS a rational belief. Many a one smarter than me have believed in it. I can get behind the idea of some god as a first cause, I'm just not convinced about the truth of the Bible yet.

>>15175744
>God is the perfection of humility, as demonstrated by the fact that he made himself man and suffered for us
God still suffered emotionally because his son died, he loves his son. He sacrificed his best for us!

>but the words of Christ also make clear that Christ is God
When...

>If my reasoning is bad, could you please identify where I am mistaken?
How about that you quote no scripture to support your ideas, or you ignore scripture to just repeat what you already believe? Isaiah 43:10 God makes it clear there's only one God

Instead of making a new thread, I figure I'd just ask here. I know it's been asked a million times, but which version of The Bible should I read as a first time reader?

I've seen the Orthodox Study Bible, Jerusalem Bible, Annotated Oxford Bible, as well as a few others recommended on here. I don't know which to choose. I see many on here advise against reading the KJV particularly for being outdated and inaccurate, but it's the only one I have a physical copy of. The others I'd have to read on my e-reader, but I don't mind.

>>15175881
Try a bible that doesn't remove God's name

>>15175846
When he identifies himself as "I Am". When he calls himself The Way, The Truth, and the Life. When he says he and the Father are in each other and are one. I gave you an entire chapter of John that explains this. Every time I have replied to you I have quoted scripture, even though I have not always cited the chapter and verse; if you were familiar with scripture, you should have recongized it. It is nothing to know the line number, and everything to understand what it means. Chapter and verse are only good for showing where the truth is said for those who do not know, but you speak as though you know. Also, you almost seem to have it. God did sacrifice his best for us! But what is better than God himself? Nothing. So, God gave himself for us as his Son! This is the greatest of all possible sacrifices. Only this could recompense the debt we owe to God by our sins. You demonstrate with Isiah, there is only one God. You demonstrate with scripture that Christ calls himself the Son of God. But when scripture is given to you to show that Christ is also God (as I gave you with John), you look away. Certainly, you must admit that the sacrifice would be greater if Jesus was Son of God and God himself, no? And this is what scripture tells you to believe. And there is no reason in logic or scripture why it is not to be believed. Why do you not believe it?

>>15175913
>When he identifies himself as "I Am"
They were asking if he was God's son. If he wanted to make it clear who he was he could have said he was

>When he calls himself The Way, The Truth, and the Life
None of that implies he's God but obviously people needs to believe he's everything he claimed to be, his life was a ransom

>When he says he and the Father are in each other and are one
Yes, because he taught what his father wanted and Jesus wants what his father wants. It's just a way of saying they're united, doesn't mean they're the same person

>Every time I have replied to you I have quoted scripture
See the top thing I wrote in this reply. You're taking things to mean other things...

>But what is better than God himself?
Nothing, granted, but God is immortal. He cannot die. He even mocks the idea of a god dying when he mocks the king of Tyre he proclaims to be a god Ezekiel 28:9

>>15175815
Based. That is where I was not too long ago as well. God bless, anon. Just read the Gospel and think about if it could be true.

>>15175995
>If he wanted to make it clear who he was he could have said he was God
Forgot to add last word lol

>all this talk about Jesus Christ not being God
You need to recognize that 'God' refers to different things in the Bible. It can refer to both the Father and to his essence, i.e. the Divinity itself which the Father has from all eternity and which is the very meaning of what it is to be God. Christ showed us that he is distinct from the Father, but that he also shares this Divinity with Him. You are confusing nature with personhood.

>>15175995
I did not refer to the scripture you referred to but, John 8:58:
>Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.
Consider also John 5:18:
>Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God.
Further, only God is Truth. Only God is Life. Had he said he was the way to truth or the way to life, you might have a point. But he says he IS Truth, and IS Life. And look at Ezekial 28:11-15
>[11] And the word of the Lord came to me, saying: Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyre: [12] And say to him: Thus saith the Lord God: Thou wast the seal of resemblance, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. [13] Thou wast in the pleasures of the paradise of God: every precious stone was thy covering: the sardius, the topaz, and the jasper, the chrysolite, and the onyx, and the beryl, the sapphire, and the carbuncle, and the emerald: gold the work of thy beauty: and thy pipes were prepared in the day that thou wast created. [14] Thou a cherub stretched out, and protecting, and I set thee in the holy mountain of God, thou hast walked in the midst of the stones of fire. [15] Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day of thy creation, until iniquity was found in thee.
The very king you wish to show as not being God is given to us for that very reason. He is the Seal of Resemblance. Like Satan was before him, and like the Anti-Christ to come, his sin was to take the Glory of God unto himself. In this thread, we've both drawn on scripture where Christ signifies that he is God. For any to even come close to doing this, they would deserve the same death as the death of the King of Tyre, unless they were truly God. For this reason, the Pharisees have Christ killed, for they thought he blasphemed, for he called himself God. If Christ is not God, then the Pharisees were right, and his death was not ignominious enough. But Christ is God, and so he raised himself up (as only God can do) on the third day. By this, God conquers death for mankind, for you are right, God is eternal and can have no end. Now, death has become a passageway to heaven for those who imitate Christ. Who are you to say what God can and cannot do? He himself has done it and said it. It has been proclaimed to all nations. 2000 years later you would say what no believer has ever said. For what purpose? I can think of no other reason than pride.

>>15176198
>Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am
He's just saying he's older than Abraham

>but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God
That's what they thought, yes, but Jesus never said he was equal to God

>But Christ is God, and so he raised himself up
Loving the scripture quotes

>Who are you to say what God can and cannot do?
I'm just saying God can't die! What you're saying is so illogical. The Bible even explains when someone dies they're dead, they have no thoughts. So Jesus didn't exist for 3 days, as such he can't resurrect himself

>I can think of no other reason than pride
I don't even remember what pride feels like...

>>15173618
last chapter of Deuteronomy is essential though, the death of Moses is kino
>And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto the mountain of Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that is over against Jericho. And the Lord shewed him all the land of Gilead, unto Dan,
>And all Naphtali, and the land of Ephraim, and Manasseh, and all the land of Judah, unto the utmost sea,
>And the south, and the plain of the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, unto Zoar.
>And the Lord said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither.
>So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord.
>And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
>And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.
>And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended.
>And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the Lord commanded Moses.
>And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,
>In all the signs and the wonders, which the Lord sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land,
>And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel.

There is frequent reference to the old testament throughout the new testament. Since you're trying to understand christianity rather than abrahamic thought, you should begin with the New Testament and check back at the Old when its directly or indirectly mentioned. A basic knowledge of Old Testament motifs would be mostly sufficient for a basic overview of Christian thought

>>15176310
He does not say "Before Abraham was made, I was," but "Before Abraham was made, I am." And you ignore what scripture says. That saying God was his Father made him equal to the Father is not given to us by the Pharisees, but by John; John tells us not that the Pharisees supposed this, but that they were angry, because this was the meaning of what Christ said. Further, did not Christ say "I will destroy the Temple, and on the third day raise it up again?" in reference to his body? This is scriptural. That I do not always give you the chapter and verse does not mean I have not given you scripture. If you knew scripture, you would know the scripture I have given you. What's more, the Bible does not explain the death you describe. That is heresy. Saul speaks with the dead. Jesus meets with Elijah and Moses on Mount Tabor. That is scripture.
>I don't even remember what pride feels like.
Could there be a more false humility than this? You demand scriptural support, but your insistance that Christ was NOT God is found nowhere is scripture. You infer, based on your assumptions about life, death, and God, that it cannot be, but nowhere in scripture does it explicitly say what you believe. To live up to your own standars, you must provide a single line, chapter and verse, which explicitly and undeniably states that Jesus is NOT God. Anything else would require interpretation and outside reasoning. By your standards, that would be unscriptural.

>>15176775
>John tells us not that the Pharisees supposed this, but that they were angry, because this was the meaning of what Christ said
But your reasoning is still completely absurd because you still have to take things that aren't there. If Jesus was God he would make that extremely clear. Yet he never says that...

>Saul speaks with the dead
Yeah, they're called demons. Remember them? That's why God hates people that tries to contact the dead, they're really just talking to demons. Furthermore we do get some lines by demons so they're always up to no good. Demons wants people to believe in the afterlife because it goes AGAINST what God teaches us. Do not be fooled by demons. Acts 19:13-17

>Jesus meets with Elijah and Moses on Mount Tabor
Vision

>Could there be a more false humility than this?
I lost emotions a long time ago. I was being honest

>>15177006
One, Pride is not an emotion. Two, I accept teachings outside of scripture, and so it stands to reason that I would have interpretations given to me by tradition which are not explicitly found in scripture, but are only implicit to scritpure. You, however, argue from a position of scripture alone. Therefore, you must find explicit reference in scripture. Jesus consistently tells us of life after death. Jesus tells us of Gehenna, which is a place souls go after death. It is true that demons want us to believe in things against what God teaches us. God teaches us life after death. Who, then, teaches you that there is no such thing? Scripture does not call the transfixion a vision, as though it is not real; rather, scripture says that Jesus is transfigured. That is his figure was changed. That is a bodily change. Where does it say it was an illusion, or that it was not real? And before you counter; I wear glasses, which means I have bad eyesight; we also would say that my vision is poor; does that mean what I see is false? Obviously not. Scripture tells us to know spirits by their fruit. The fruit of the Catholic Church is 1.2 billion believers, which is the largest religion in the world, beginning with only 12. The fruit of Sola Scriptura has been endless dissension; today there are over 30,000 protestant churches recognized in America alone. It is absurd for you to believe in Sola Scripture, which is itself not scriptural. It is absurd for you to insist on these interpretation which have no support of scripture or tradition. God has made the truth abundantly clear--he has given his Church and the Holy Ghost, as he told us he would do and as is recorded in scripture. It is you who insist on some unclear alternative. Almost noone in the history of the faith has believed as you believe. Consider the Apostles Creed, which was made by the Apostles:
>I believe in God, Father Almighty,
>And in Jesus Christ, His Only Son, Our Lord
>Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
>Born of the Virgin Mary,
>Crucified under Pontius Pilate,
>Suffered, died, and was buried;
>He descended into hell, and on the third day rose from the dead;
>He ascended into Heaven, where he is seated at the right hand of the Father;
>From thence he shall come again to judge the living and the dead;
>I believe in the Holy Ghost;
>The Holy Catholic Church;
>The communion of saints;
>The resurrection of the body;
>and life everlasting. Amen.
How can you say God would make things clear and also say that this creed is false?

>>15177264
>Jesus consistently tells us of life after death. Jesus tells us of Gehenna
Not a literal place, he's describing what happens to people if they go against God for example = eternal destruction

>Jesus consistently tells us of life after death
He's talking about the resurrection

>Where does it say it was an illusion, or that it was not real?
Because they died? :) Moses will be resurrected in paradise

>Consider the Apostles Creed, which was made by the Apostles
"The earliest known mention of the expression "Apostles' Creed" occurs in a letter of AD 390." I dare say it wasn't written by the apostles. Anyway I'm going to bed. I hope you understand the bible one day. Pray to God for understanding when you study and he'll help you

>>15177552
You should pray for humility before understanding. Understanding is a gift, but humility is a virtue. One need not understand to be saved, but one must be humble.

>>15177679
You're right it's important to be humble but you do need to understand what Jesus taught to be saved. Because Jesus commanded us to preach to others but how can we do that if we don't understand?

>>15173391
That was pretty much my thoughts on it when I was reading it, thanks for the conformation. Some of the stuff seemed very scholastic and a good veiw into a learned believeres conceptualization, while others not so much. I kind of treated it like wikipedia, where i assumed most of the well formated and portrayed writing was more or less accurate (not research paper worthy, but enough for cursory, but academic introduction), and the less academic peices less so. Kind of like a well made wiki like for star wars or something. you can probably trust most of it, but not all (and of course its from a demonstably specific stance to begin with)

I found the analysis of different religions and philosophers interesting. Specifically the onle about buhdism and the specific parallels, agreements, and disagreements it has with catholic tenets. By and large they seemd to be largely possitive, but critiqued the lack of focus on love and its predisposition to worldly ambivalence. Also, the idea of the self in relation to absence of self was fascinating. wasnt expecting a good read like that.

>>15175641
>>15175778

hes bait you fools

>>15177703
How can we understand if we care more for our own glory and satisfaction than the glory and satisfaction of God? How can we be confident in our understanding unless we have good teachers? How can we know good teachers from bad teachers unless we are humble and not given to self-righteousness? And one does not need to understand as a teacher understands in order to tell people the good news of salvation. Understanding is good, but the greatest evangelization is a virtuous life. A man cannot hold onto any virtue unless he is humble. Nothing in life ought to be desired more than charity, and even Paul says that it ought to be desired before any other gifts; but how can any truly be charitable unless they are humble? The pharisee who knew much and praised himself was condemned, but the publican who was otherwise wicked but humbled himself in contrition was saved. All the Pharisees understood the scriptures by letter, but Dismas the good thief , who had never studied, surpassed them all in understanding, because he humbled himself before the Lord. If I pray for God to give me understanding, I can trust he will give me understanding of what I need, but perhaps nothing more. But if I pray for humility, God will supply it in abundance. If someone would refrain from praying for humility, it could only be that they are too proud.

>>15177778
Then maybe someone else will learn something. Or maybe, by my patience, he will change his mind anyways. It is not good to live life suspecting other people.

>>15175678
>difficult and misinterpreted
Its actually not hard to understand, but it is misinterpreted often by Papists

>>15175641
Based

THe bible seems really interesting, but are there "non canon" works I should read as well, like the Book of Enoch, which talks about why God flooded the Earth after the nephelim were made

>>15179980
Paradise Lost & The Inferno obviously

>>15175641
>If I am in error, if I am in sin, if I believe a lie, please brother, out of charity, and for the greater glory of God, please deliver me. Show me my error. Remove the scales from my eyes. What kind of kindness is it to gloat over my damnation? Christ prayed for his crucifiers as they killed him, pleading on account of their ignorance. If I am ignorant, please pray for me. If I am ignorant, please lift me up out of my misery. Please, I implore you, show me the same mercy God has shown me so that we may both be with him in heaven.