/lit/ - Literature

>>15165550
>There used to be a time when the common man would read and discuss literature, classical music, architecture etc. but none of this happens today
Wow lol

>>15165567
What?

>>15165567
Common men == Upper class fags

>>15165584
It wasn't just upper class people

>>15165584
this desu senpai. read nietzsche or something OP lol.

>>15165574
I think you have a skewed understanding of what the common man used to be into

>>15165603
Would you like to enlighten me?

>>15165550
Read Baricco

>>15165574
The people those writing survives were decidedly not the "common men"

>>15165620
I'm mostly talking about the 20th century.

>>15165550
>There used to be a time when the common man would read and discuss literature, classical music, architecture etc.
The common man didn't fucking read. Do you really think john sheepfuck sat down with his copy of hamlet and poured over the pages? Wagnerfags are so fucking dumb holy shit

>>15165625
The common men in the 20th was like the common men in any other time

>>15165627

>>15165625

>>15165628
Are you suggesting they didn't listen to classical music and read literature?

>>15165645
In the 20th century? No, they listened to popular music and read magazines

>>15165645
I'm not suggesting anything. I'm affirming it.

>>15165655
source

>>15165645
They didn't. John Sheepfuck was too busy working in Mr. Goldbergstein's factory and taking care of his 18 children to listen to music. You do realize that the vast majority of the populus wasn't literate until the mid 1900s right? And that music wasn't widely available until the advent of the recording device?

>>15165658
Ah yes 20th century men never listened to classical music and never read single work of fiction would you provide source please?

>>15165668
You first you stupid motherfucker

>>15165674
No one is saying they never did. But classical music and literature weren't the preferred entertainment of "common people."

>>15165550
>Are there any books that talk about the degradation of culture and the decline of the arts?

The Closing of the American Mind by Allan Bloom (not related to Harold) deals with the cultural decline of America

I think Roger Scrutton wrote about it, but I have not read it. I know that he has a popular video about this.

>>15165673
Are you capable of making an argument that isn't hinged upon antisemitism? Asking in good faith.

>>15165674
Of course the upper class, being upper class, did. But once again, John Sheepfuck didn't give a shit and never did

>>15165676
You first

>>15165673
>realize
He doesn't, because he made up on his mind a magical golden age where everyone was cultured and educated up to whatever made-up standards of his.

>>15165699
It was a joke

>>15165668
Source that there was a time where the common men engaged with high culture, classical music and literature?

Are there any books that talk about the degradation of discourse and the decline of the /lit/? There used to be a time when the common anon would read and discuss literature, classical music, architecture etc. but none of this happens today.

>>15165700
>John Sheepfuck didn't give a shit and never did
You have no proof of this

I don't know about the common man of other eras (and I suspect that no one here does, in either side of the debate), but...

Even in popular culture in the last 50 years, the decline has been pretty strong

Compare the number 1 singles from today
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Billboard_Hot_100_number-one_singles_of_2020

To exactly 50 years ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Billboard_Hot_100_number-one_singles_of_1970

>>15165709
I have none because it's common knowledge but if you want we can say we could both be right and end the conversation here.

>>15165717
Ezra Pound lamented wasting time by listening to the radio instead of reading and writing. The many different sources of entertainment today has dulled many minds and attention spans.

>>15165625
How young are you?

Have you literally never met someone born before 1950?

>>15165699
what's antisemitic about that comment? asking in genuine curiosity

>>15165728
>Common knowledge

The thing is, retarded proles always existed, it's just that before the industrial revolution, they were hidden in bumfuck-nowhere villages and estates and weren't allowed in the city.

>>15165709
>>15165668
>>15165658
>>15165645
Why do I have an impression that neither side has any idea about who is right and both are creating fictions on their own heads about the past?

>>15165727
Thanks. The guys trying to debate are going to ignore this because they can't argue against the obvious decline there.

>>15165722
You made the claim first. Prove that there was ever a time the John Sheepfucks of the world cared about high art

>>15165645
My great grand father never read a book in his life, what region do you think held these predigous ubermenchen? You need to hold off watching Robert Scuton documentaries.

>>15165732
Yeah and they have read the essential classics and know the famous opera singers and classical pieces.

>>15165728
>We're bith right
>Common men didn't do the things OP says
>Common men did do the things OP says
>We're both right
How?

>>15165727
Ah yes, The Jackson Five are the height of culture

>>15165550
>There used to be a time when the common man would read and discuss literature, classical music, architecture etc
Delusion

I would recommend The End of Our Time by the philosopher Berdyaev. He explores he decline of our society on a spiritual level through the lens of the arts and through the lens of ideology. Roger Scruton also explores this issue. Scruton has written books about it and I would recommend you check out his documentary titled Why Beauty Matters, it's free on youtube.

>>15165747
>obvious
You meant to say subjective

You are also comparing radio play to online streaming. Apples and oranges.

>itt college kiddies think they're upper class for reading books
lmfao

>>15165727
>>15165747
the 70s was already spectacle driven mind numbing degeneracy, in fact most of the 20th century already was

>>15165709
Opera singers and classical literature sold millions and millions of copies. Opera singers were household names and stars. You ask anyone and they would know Enrico Caruso.

>>15165747
>>15165727
>look, I don't like modern pop music, that means of society has be degraded!
Not only was pop music not mentioned among your list of arts(literature, classical music, architecture) it must also be said that pop was never very good

>>15165764
Compared to today's music, yes. The Jackson 5 were amazing.

>>15165550
People actually used to read more books, but not for enlightenment or for knowledge, just to pass the time.
One section of Amusing Ourselves to Death deals with that.

>>15165779
Would you say there is no difference in quality from 2020 and 1970 in pop music?

>>15165781
Fuck off, you aren't special for liking shallow 70s pop

>>15165781
Nice opinion bro

>>15165778
Source?

>>15165727
hip hop is just the 20th-21st century version of minstrel shows, those were always popular in America

>>15165770
Simon & Garfunkel and this guy are just as good as each other. There is no difference. Music is subjective...

>>15165803
stay triggered zoomer

>>15165816
>"Music is subjective..."
Faggot.

>>15165822
So you're just talking out of your ass Boomer?

>>15165727
The 2020's just started.
So, let's compare the top movies of the year of the 1960's and of the 2010's

1960: Spartacus (1960)
1961: West Side Story (1961)
1962: Lawrence of Arabia (1962)
1963: Cleopatra (1963)
1964: My Fair Lady (1964)
1965: The Sound of Music (1965)
1966: The Bible: In the Beginning (1966) and Hawaii (1966) (virtual tie)
1967: The Graduate (1967)
1968: 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968)
1969: Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (1969)

2010: Toy Story 3 (2010)
2011: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Part 2 (2011)
2012: Marvel's The Avengers (2012)
2013: The Hunger Games: Catching Fire (2013)
2014: American Sniper (2014)
2015: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015)
2016: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story (2016)
2017: Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (2017)
2018: Black Panther (2018)
2019: Avengers: Endgame (2019)


You know, the 1960's and the 1970's were not the peak of culture. But they were better than our era.

>>15165816
>Simon & Garfunkel
Cringe

>>15165803
https://archive.org/details/enricocarusoabi01ziragoog/page/n142/mode/2up

>>15165829
but bro art is subjective Lil Uzi Vert and Mozart are literally the same bro no difference at all

>>15165816
https://youtu.be/d_NS9Vd1sMA
You picked the one guy that can actually play and sing, good job nerd
What instrument do you play, or is this talk about classical music just retarded navel gazing

>>15165794
>>15165795
Yes, the shallow pop of 1970 is better than the shallow pop of 2020.
That's how bad 2020 is in terms of music.

>>15165612
Just a hundred years ago middle class did barely exist, there was no mass media, and poor people were mostly illiterate.

Arts were never 'democratized.' Now it's the closest we've ever been to that.

Even if you change OP's "the common man" to "upper and middle class people," reading novels from those times shows that they were largely faking pseuds. I'm not saying that there hasn't been a big loss but the OP is naïve.

Both music and art in general have developed and become much better.
Of course, the misanthropes on /lit/ could not be bothered to move a finger and look for it.

>>15165816
It isn't about being good. Since the link is about pop charts than the discussion is whether it is appealing and popular and clearly Post Malone is a popular musician. Again comparing the two lists is ridiculous because of the differences in how music is spread and consumed. I have no opinion on post malone or simon and garfunkel.

>>15165848
The upper classes nowadays are much more uncultured and poorly read than those of the past.
No one here has the material about what the common man read in the past (of those that could read), but we do have what the upper classes read and what our upper classes read.

>>15165550
What is television.

>>15165843
>Doing the female indie folk vocal fry that every single artist in the genre doing is talent

>>15165844
Nice opinion bro

>>15165849
See >>15165829 and >>15165727
Even pop culture declined hard. Even mega progressive ideologues can see this by comparing those lists.

>>15165845
So why did so many records and books sell in the millions in the early 1900's?

>>15165848
Most literature of any given time period is complete garbage. The one that we still remember are the better ones, and that colors our judgment.
Most bestselling authors of the past are literally whos now

>>15165849
I wouldn't go as far to say arts have gotten better, the old masters are considered masters for good reason.

>>15165885
We are not arguing about what was written in (for example) 1820, but what the upper classes read in 1820 and what our upper classes read in 2020.
And our upper classes are unculture swine compared to those of 1820.

>>15165855
The charts are to show the decline of the taste of the people which is obvious by looking at them unless you don't think going from The Beatles to Lil Uzi Vert is a decline of taste lol

>>15165874
>le style I do not like make art bad
Stick to philosophy you autistic nerd, what instrument do you play? Let's here your compositions bro

>>15165867
>The upper classes nowadays are much more uncultured and poorly read than those of the pas
I know, that's what I implied by the first clause of the second sentence of my two sentence 41 word post.
>>15165885
I was talking about how people are described in old novels, not the quality of the works.

>>15165919
>Lil Uzi Vert is just as good as Beethoven

>>15165914
Taste does not decline, it changes. There is no fixed point of reference to say something has declined or not. And again comparing radio plays to what people play on spotify or youtube is a bad faith comparison. Look i get it you don't like black culture, but your arguments are invalid.

Lmao at this thread.

People had no TV to pass the time. Men read pulp shit. Adventure shlock. The children read comic books and pulp magazines. Women read romance.
The great modern classics, published in stallments in newspapers were not seen or read as plain literature, not Literature like you pretentious fucks seem to believe.

>>15165912
We're talking about the 20th century not the 19th century. Try to be consistent

>>15165881
Nowhere near close the level level art is consumed today.

>>15165938
Having a postmodern mindset on this doesn't change the fact that you think going from The Beatles to Lil Uzi Vert is not a decline. Do you not have any personal opinions on the matter?

>And again comparing radio plays to what people play on spotify or youtube is a bad faith comparison.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-streamed_artists_on_Spotify#Most_monthly_listeners

Not much better than the Billboard list

> Look i get it you don't like black culture, but your arguments are invalid.
This is bait right

>>15165936
>Lil Uzi Vert is just as good as Beethoven
Never said that
>art music has the same aims as pop-music
What instrument do you play?

>>15165944
Lmao

>>15165949
Yeah but this was classical music and classical literature that sold in the millions. Opera Houses weren't going out of business around the world like they are now.

>>15165938
If it is all about tastes, does the same hold for literature?
For example, you can't say that Anna Karenina or Brothers Karamazov are better than Hunger Games or Handmaiden's Tale?

>>15165964
Sure, I personally prefer the beatles to that person (i dont even know them to be honest). But that is besides the point. Their is no OBJECTIVE taste so it impossible to say is taste has declined or not. It's just different. This is my last post in this thread.

Any books that talk about the usurpation of the western musical tradition by Philistines?

>>15165992
I'm not him, but what would you say about this >>15165985

>>15165969
>Never said that
Wait so you do have opinions on music? Are you able to rate music like on a star basis or are you one of those guys who isn't able to do that?

>What instrument do you play?
Not an argument

>>15165881
How do classical music videos get millions of views on YouTube and millions of downloads on streaming services if everyone alive today doesn't appreciate classical music? You're a fag who thinks liking fucking chopin and Beethoven makes you a Renaissance man, everyone likes them you fucking retard. Go suck start a shotgun.

>>15165992
No one is talking about objectivity you fucking retard we are all talking about our opinions.

>>15165992
haha judgemental bigots BTFO. everyone likes what they like and that's the end of it

>>15166024
haha

>>15166013
Mozart has 5 million monthly listeners on spotify. Lil Uzi has 23 million. Justin Bieber has 59 million.

>>15166004
I don't think a star system is useful for rating music, you either like it or you don't its not that deep.

>not an argument
If you can't play an instrument you're a fucking pseud, how do you think you understand music without playing an instrument. Especially classical music. You're just listening to pretty sounds at that point, you don't understand anything that's going on.

>>15166069
So?

>>15165983
>Yeah but this was classical music and classical literature that sold in the millions
Wrong. They sell more today.

>Opera Houses weren't going out of business around the world like they are now.
There were MUCH less opera houses back then.

>>15166077
>I don't think a star system is useful for rating music, you either like it or you don't its not that deep.
So if you can one persons music is better than another you could probably quantify that by a certain amount and then we could look at the popular music of different decades by the amount you say and would be able to come with a number that could show a line maybe like a decline???

>If you can't play an instrument you're a fucking pseud, how do you think you understand music without playing an instrument. Especially classical music. You're just listening to pretty sounds at that point, you don't understand anything that's going on.
Not an argument

>>15166077
>how do you think you understand music without playing an instrument. Especially classical music. You're just listening to pretty sounds at that point, you don't understand anything that's going on.
You are reducing music to a mechanism.

>>15166091
So? That literally ends your argument that classical music isn't dead. The most popular classical musician is barely getting any monthly plays. Wagner gets one million monthly. Monteverdi has 214 thousand.

Have you ever been to a classical music concert. You couldn't count on one hand the people under 60 years old. Yet you are trying to claim it isn't dead

Classical music is dead, at least In the United States....if it was ever "alive" to begin with. I don't count seats filed as being "alive" either

t. classical musician

>>15165938
>taste does not exist, because then my leftwing worldview would be tasteless.

>>15166077
>just listening to pretty sound

>>15166114
Are Americans so poor they don't have orchestras, opera houses, theaters (not the movie kind).
Any halfway decent University here has an orchestra and opera, to say nothing of professional groups.
We actually watched plays in middle school and read and discussed Sophocles and Aristophanes in high school.
I can't believe someone living in the USA, the richest country in the world, had a worse school experience than me.

>>15166098
>So if you can one persons music is better than another you could probably quantify that by a certain amount and then we could look at the popular music of different decades by the amount you say and would be able to come with a number that could show a line maybe like a decline???
One, improve your reading comprehension. Two, read a book on English grammar.

>Not an argument
You're a talent-less bumfuck, why should anyone give a shit about what you think about music

>>15166106
How so lmao

>>15166165
>Are Americans so poor they don't have orchestras, opera houses, theaters
Tons of them are closing and even the most famous ones are low on cash and dependent on donors to exist.

>>15166166
>One, improve your reading comprehension. Two, read a book on English grammar.
Wait so you don't go further than "like it" "don't like it" in your brain. You don't have favorite albums. Albums you like more than others? Albums you think are good but not great? Albums you think are great but wouldn't put in your favorites list?

>You're a talent-less bumfuck, why should anyone give a shit about what you think about music
Not an argument

>>15166077
They hated him for he told them the truth. Your mindless "appreciation" of paintings and sculptures and songs is just mindless consumption by the senses.
If you can't actually engage with the art in front of you there's no difference between looking at a flower, a painting or some TV show

>>15166188
>If you can't actually engage with the art in front of you there's no difference between looking at a flower, a painting or some TV show
No there is still a difference. Even people too uneducated or unintelligent to understand or explain why they prefer something can still have an instinctive preference for art that has meaning.

Tolstoy's What is Art.

>>15166165
No we have them. My class went to the symphony in middle school as well. Arts are unfortunately neglected though, most of school funds go toward STEM and athletics.

>>15165550
Wagner's own essay "Religion und Kunst" talks about degeneracy in general, as a result of Schopenhauer's Will cannibalizing itself, so to speak.

Every "high culture" thread on /lit/ is inevitably flooded by contrarian Anons who will literally argue against the decline of the arts simply because too many people think the arts have declined and now they see it as a basic normie take with which they need to vehemently disagree to maintain their own alleged uniqueness, regardless of whether it's true or not.
Then there is the tiny percentage of unironic relativists, who insist that art is subjective and Wagner was totally a revolutionary and stuff who tried to take music into a new direction, so you, 21st century man, should take every dimwit making "experimental" music by pressing random buttons in Fruitloops as seriously as Wagner.
Another group makes the (valid) point of survivor's bias, and will say that of course you think all art from the past is good, because the shitty stuff didn't survive. This is true, but you can just compare lists of highest grossing movies or biggest hit singles from different decades and see that the decline is still palatable even in pop culture (let alone so-called high culture, then!).

The problem is democratization, which, if you think about it for a little bit, is the Degeneration Wagner talks about in R&K, which, if you think about it for a little bit, is just Schopenhauer's Will to life doing its thing, endlessly individuating itself, endlessly breaking the fundamental unity of reality. With the possible exception of Shakespeare (who's Lindy-proof in his own right) the Greek tragedies still stand on a solitary height, alone. Catallus wrote poetry about the human condition that is as relevant as any poetry that came after, but in a more perfect language. Art used to be by the elite, for the elite. Now that it needs to appeal to the masses (no nobility like Wagner-worshipping Ludwig II of Bavaria to grant you unlimited funds) the quality of arts must necessarily dwindle. And it needs to appeal to the masses because of democratization.

>>15166296
Ironically it wouldn't be that hard to bring back patronage, given the amount of money we have to piss away nowadays.

>>15165829
Mfw the best film on the 2010's list is unironically Toy Story 3

>>15166171
That the appreciation of music, or any art, is in technique rather than intent. Classical music always had a Christian foundation.

>>15166185
You can't quantize a qualitative thing man. A lot of craft goes into making music. Whether or not you like it you have to appreciate that (generally) a lot of heart and effort went into what ever you're listening to. Of course I have favorites, but they are personal to me and my tastes. I don't expect other people to think what I think is great is great. Also, I can see something that is great and still not like it. For example, I can see the craft behind art that I do not like. I'm not a huge fan of beethoven, I have my reasons, but I can still see the genius behind his compositions and the influence he had on composers that I do like. I don't listen to pop music, but I can appreciate that there is a tremendous amount of effort that went into making that taylor swift song sound exactly the way that it does. I can appreciate that ariana grande has a great voice, even though I do not like her music. It would be foolish to remove a piece of art from its era and compare it one to one to another from a different one. I can admit that there is lazy music out there, and that there are 'bad' artists out there, but I don't think its useful to compare them to music that I like. I'd rather listen to what I like and explore why I like it, than think about how much I don't like music other people listen to.

>>15165550
>Are there any books that talk about the degradation of culture and the decline of the arts?
Read Adorno

>Le more notes = more soul
lmao wh*ty

>>15165673
>what is church service

>>15166349
...and as soon as a post a serious reply he doesn't respond. Fucking typical. I hate this board.

>>15166511
>everybody is just trying their best and there is something good about all music :)
Do you think this trite shit deserves a reply

>>15166527
Not what I said at all retard, art doesn't exist in a vacum, again, work on your reading compression. If you think music is objective (which is hilarious because you don't understand anything about how music is made or preformed) what perimeters do they have to meet? What makes good music, objectively.

>>15166349
>>15166511
I'm not him. Frankly, this just looks like an excuse to be politically correct and avoid saying that one artist is better than another.
And would you say the same about literature?

>>15166349
Come on man do you seriously fucking think Taylor Swift is on the same level as Beethoven? What the fuck

>>15166511
I know this feel all too well, anon. At the end of the day you have to realize that posting anything on 4chan is futile and meaningless. No one here wants to 'debate' or 'discuss'. We all are just screaming into the void.

>>15166562
Harry Potter = War & Peace no art can be measured. taste isn't real. there is no such thing as good.

>>15166562
You can't quantize a qualitative thing, and I did say there are bad artists out there.

>>15166574
Eventually you stop responding to the delusional man on the street corner

>>15166575
nobody is arguing this. this is a textbook definition of a straw man.

>>15166572
Taylor Swift is obviously better than Beethoven, she's on Mozart's level

>>15166557
Not him but you cant make anything objective without appealing to religion. This fact has been laid bare by postmodernism which is why 21st century culture is nothing but schizophrenic subjectivism.

>>15166584
Wait so taste is real, there is such a thing as good and art can be measured and compared?

>>15166582
...or you realize you were the delusional one all along.

>>15166584
You can't quantize a qualitative thing, how can you say War & Peace is better than Harry Potter?

>>15166591
based

>>15166572
Where did I say that? I called beethoven a genius, I said there was craft, effort, and intent behind Taylor Swift's music. How does that lead to
>hurrrrrrrr he think Beehoven is on the same level as Taylor Swift
I could count your every neuron you have on one hand.

>>15166600
It's not delusional to say me shitting on the sidewalk is as good as Rembrandt because taste changes

>>15166601
I can say war and peace is better than Harry Potter but is not a universal truth.

>>15166622
universal taste is a spook. personal taste is self evident. understand yet?

>>15166575
Objectively, they're just words on a page.

>>15166638
you are right.

gotta say, i've always thought wagner looked native american as fuck in this pic

>>15166638
Every single time a thread like this is made some guy comes in acting all smug and declares "Art is subjective!!!" like we were all talking with each other like it's written in the fucking atoms of the universe that Mozart is actually better than Doja Cat and that's what everyone in the thread is trying to say.

>>15166614
You're trying to justify modern pop music with the same argument as classical. One is a deep expression of the soul, the other is an assembly line money maker.

>>15166649
Yet no one has every proposed serous parameters to measure art by.

>>15166625
Let's suppose that in 2100, suddenly many writers appear with the same capacity as Tolstoy. Hundreds of novels like Anna Karenina are written every decade. Some of them actually are better than Anna Karenina.
But, by 2300 all that writers are capable of writing is Harry Potter, Twilight, Handmaiden's Tale and The Hunger Games.

Would you say that literature declined from 2100 to 2300? Or would you say that it is just differente tastes?

>>15165550
Still the case in France, Germany, and Italy for a wider % than elsewhere. The Abolition of Man by C.S. Lewis is p much the gold standard for this theme.

>>15166666
>Some of them actually are better than Anna Karenina.

says who? you just don't get it man

>>15166657
No I'm not?

>>15166077
This. Unless you actually engage with what's going in the piece of art, it's just a subjective experience that means absolutely nothing to anyone else. You have zero claim to judgment or taste without a foundational understanding of what's going. People like OP just want to larp and are nostalgic for a world that never existed. They attempt to escape the harsh realities of their time by displacing their resentment to the cultural and aesthetic artefacts of the time. Essentially "Wagner is the height of music" translates to "im sad that my crush doesnt want to fuck me, but wants to fuck that douche that listen to lil uzi vert".

>>15166678
>Essentially "Wagner is the height of music" translates to "im sad that my crush doesnt want to fuck me, but wants to fuck that douche that listen to lil uzi vert".
I can't say if you are a troll or if this is making fun of the people who make this kind of argument.

>>15166664
We don't need to because we are all on the same wave length. No one wants you here. We aren't debating the music. Just like you said it's a strawman to suggest that Harry Potter > War and Peace but that's literally the position of most people today. That's what we are discussing.

>>15166678
>Essentially "Wagner is the height of music" translates to "im sad that my crush doesnt want to fuck me, but wants to fuck that douche that listen to lil uzi vert".
Lol, you're a retard, but no surprises there. Can you analyze Lil Uzi Vert's music and (without engaging in parody) find Schopenhauerian themes in it (and then we haven't even touched on the Ring)? Can you imagine something like Nietzsches "Contra Wagner" being written about ANY artist living today? What kind of art still commands this kind of respect? Entire essays and books have been written about Mozart's Don Giovanni -- where's the equivalent today?

>>15166666
DFW is still warm in his grave and you say shit like this.

>>15166675
Now, you are just trying to escape, aren't you?
Tell me, would you say there was a decline from 2100 to 2300?

>>15166715
You're incomparably retarded, /pol/ expat. Go play minecraft

>>15166718
>Lol, you're a retard, but no surprises there. Can you analyze Lil Uzi Vert's music and (without engaging in parody) find Schopenhauerian themes in it (and then we haven't even touched on the Ring)? Can you imagine something like Nietzsches "Contra Wagner" being written about ANY artist living today? What kind of art still commands this kind of respect? Entire essays and books have been written about Mozart's Don Giovanni -- where's the equivalent today?
Cardi B did a hour session on instagram live about 6ix9ine's discography

>>15165699
I can, but I refuse to.

>>15166736
If by pol you mean leftypol sure. What's wrong with minecraft?

>>15166718
The less people reference that stinky g*rman the better. If you can't find good art, its your fault.

>>15166736
Minecraft is kino tho

>>15166756
>he doesn't know

>>15165727
The 2020 list is unironically better and more cerebral.

>>15166718
>where's the equivalent today?
https://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/university-teaching-entire-based-beyonces-lemonade/story?id=42445886

But then, this does not go against your argument.

>>15166743
So? That's one dimwit talking about another dimwit. Let's compare Cardi B talking about 6ix9ine with Nietzsche discussing Wagner, sure, let's just do it and call it a day, art is indeed subjective. You're so much cooler than the rest of the Anons in this thread.

>>15166758
I didn't say good art isn't being made anymore. But it's not in the collective consciousness anymore if it is. I'll take Neutral Milk Hotel simply because it's well-known (even if you'll just say it's bad or whatever) -- Aeroplane is a good album. How many people have heard of it? I'm sure you can find deep, penetrating essays on the themes of the album. But who bothers to read them? Does ITAOTS say something about the human condition in a new, refreshing way, like Parsifal did? Can you honestly compare these two works of art and say they're equal?

>>15166791
>So? That's one dimwit talking about another dimwit. Let's compare Cardi B talking about 6ix9ine with Nietzsche discussing Wagner, sure, let's just do it and call it a day, art is indeed subjective. You're so much cooler than the rest of the Anons in this thread.
I was joking I'm on your side

>>15166776
>The 2020 list is unironically better and more cerebral.
Would you say the same about the top movies of the 1960's with the top movies of the 2010's?
Is Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi a better and more cerebral movie than those of the 1960's?

ITT: Meta-contrarianism

>>15166802
No. But what about tv shows?

>>15165550
>There used to be a time when the common man would read and discuss literature, classical music, architecture etc.
You dont have a single source to back that up

>>15166833
Modern TV shows have more boobs and blood, so they are better.

I always found it funny how Anthony Fantano would give albums like The Money Store 10 out of 10, while there's music out there like Beethoven's 9th Symphony. If TMS is a 10, then what is this?

>>15166802
Film is not nearly as important an art form today then it was fifty years ago. Especially in America. The big films are built to appeal to both Chinese and America markets today, so of course they're going to be less deep.

>>15166862
Those might as well be two entirely different mediums though.

>>15166864
>The big films are built to appeal to both Chinese and America markets today, so of course they're going to be less deep.
Yes, art is made for mass appeal which means it's shit. >>15166296

>>15166077
I hope you have never commented on a film without being able to make one yourself. Or sculpture, architecture, anything else

You all sound like those jocks who talk about whether some basketball player is a better football player then some football player.

>>15166880
Yes.

>>15166881
I agree I only made the thread for recommendations which I've gotten only 3.

>>15166693
It's true. Go to /classical/ on /mu and or any /pol/ discussion on art. This is like when old music crits would hate on a piece by telemann saying how it didn't show the same kind of "religious conviction" of bach's, only to find out that those pieces were actually written by bach and misattributed to telemann. Discussion on art based on anything but the technical or theoretical is just a canvas to project your personal and idealogical bullshit and nothing else.

>Can you analyze Lil Uzi Vert's music
Yes.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2990053

>>15166894
If you're being serious, write your OP less combativly. You sounded like those 'I was born in the wrong generation' quirky girls.

>>15166909
Saying that whoever disagrees with you does so because he is a "sexual failure" is a low IQ move, anon.

>>15166937
You're on 4chan stupid nigger

>>15166909
>https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2990053
>Lil Uzi Vert is a musical artist who has been a rising star in the Hip Hop genre for some time
now, even though he does not even consider himself a rapper. The content of his most
successful single to date may make good on that claim as it contains woeful and emotional
subject matter that is rarely seen out of his peers in today’s mainstream Hip Hop. While he is
not the only artists to insert real life pain, emotion, struggles, and vulnerability into his lyrics,
he is one of around 10 or so mainstream artists who is leading the charge in the mission to
preserve alternative hip hop at the highest levels

This is literally 8th grade level writing and it's about the lyrics not the music.

>>15166909
I know you just quickly googled it, but the actual "paper" you linked to is 883 words long, you absolute imbecile.

>>15166947
>You're on 4chan
So what?

>>15166935
I just want a girlfriend I can talk to about art :(

>>15166951
Lyrics and production are the points of rap you idiot

>because all generations say "the music of the past was better" that means a decline in the arts is literally impossible
t. every meta-contrarian in this thread

>>15166964
lmao good luck with that, get some guy friends. Hopefully they bully you back into a man.

>>15166972
Yes it is. Wagner is absolute degeneracy. In fact, let's go even further, the whole polyphonic tradition of music is in the words of the bishop of Norte Dame in the 12 century:

>Bad taste has, however, degraded even religious worship, bringing into the presence of God, into the recesses of the sanctuary a kind of luxurious and lascivious singing, full of ostentation, which with female modulation astonishes and enervates the souls of the hearers. When you hear the soft harmonies of the various singers, some taking high and others low parts, some singing in advance, some following in the rear, others with pauses and interludes, you would think yourself listening to a concert of sirens rather than men, and wonder at the powers of voices … whatever is most tuneful among birds, could not equal. Such is the facility of running up and down the scale; so wonderful the shortening or multiplying of notes, the repetition of the phrases, or their emphatic utterance: the treble and shrill notes are so mingled with tenor and bass, that the ears lost their power of judging. When this goes to excess it is more fitted to excite lust than devotion; but if it is kept in the limits of moderation, it drives away care from the soul and the solicitudes of life, confers joy and peace and exultation in God, and transports the soul to the society of angels.

He was saying this about basic polyphonic music from the norte dame school, which was deviating from old medieval monody.
"Degeneracy" means absolutely nothing except "things are different and I don't like it". You can rationalize it anyway you like, but history has proven time and time again that it's nothing but nostalgia and narrow-mindedness. Your ilk will be lamenting the music of their time and wishing we could go back to the old days of "Bruno Mars and Bad Bunny" like they always do.

>>15166978
Is being a man accepting the fact BTS is the favorite artist of every girl I talk to and that I will never get a Wagnerian waifu

>>15167014
Not him but we aren't talking about disagreements we are talking about a massive decline in quality from something like classical music to mumble rap unless you're going to suggest the switch from classical to mumble rap is like the introduction of the piano to classical music we just don't know it yet.

>>15167014
If you believe that art has a "high point" then it can be simultaneously true that that bishop was wrong and declinists are right, because that would imply that the high point was after the 12th Century but before the 20th.

>>15167029
you're comparing the highest music created in an era with a 5 year fad for teenagers and twenty somethings.. of course there's going to be a difference in quality.

>>15167014
>history has proven time and time again that it's nothing but nostalgia and narrow-mindedness.
When you look at Ancient Greece you think every century had the same quality of literary output?

>>15167014
Just because every generation moans about their current music, doesn't mean that current music isn't shit. Quoting a 12th century bishop doesn't change that.
>"Degeneracy" means absolutely nothing except "things are different and I don't like it".
No, Wagner uses the term in a very specific manner if you bothered to read the man's writings.

>>15165668
>>15165709
>Source that there was a time where the common men engaged with high culture, classical music and literature?

Does this count?
https://aeon.co/essays/why-working-class-britons-loved-reading-and-debating-the-classics
>A Classical education was never just for the elite, but was a precious and inspiring part of working-class British life

>>15167029
The point being that the "drop" is subjective and means nothing. Rap is popular music. it's from a technical perspective no different than the millions of different forms of folk music from around the world, like polka. It doesnt have the same aspiration or intentions as art music does. If a composer wanted to, they could introduce rap elements into a symphony or art music composition the way Stravinsky did with jazz and other folk forms, and even Mozart did with german dances. They just havent't. The prominent place something like mumble rap has in today's cultural landscape has more to do with movement of capital and information than it does with aesthetic taste. If they could back in the 18th century, the elite would have exploited popular forms of music to make profit.

>>15167058
>When you look at Ancient Greece you think every century had the same quality of literary output?
Some progressive people believe that everything is always getting better. That there is nothing that was better in the past.
Katy Perry is not a worse musician than Mozart and the woman who writes articles for Teen Vogue telling the readers to be promiscuous is wiser than Epictetus and Plato.

>>15167014
>>15167063
>Wagner uses the term in a very specific
I should add, for Wagner the apex of art was Ancient Greece which, in his view, perfected not only tragedy but exemplified the Gesamtkunstwerk concept which he so desperately tried to recreate. So yes, you can theoretically say all art is inferior to Greek tragedies and STILL admit that some art gets closer to that ideal (Wagner) than others (Lil Uzi Vert), while acknowledging a general DECLINE from that ideal.

>>15167089
Literally no one said that

>>15167074
>The prominent place something like mumble rap has in today's cultural landscape has more to do with movement of capital and information than it does with aesthetic taste.
it is 100% because of the radio and subsequent technological innovations in communication

>>15167103
There are people that believe that.

>>15166644
genius takes it's toll on the body

>>15167055
I don't. I was just demonstrating how one man's high art is another's degenerate form. And the endless cycle of juvenilia.
>>15167058
I believe that a culture's output can only be understood in terms of their point in history and the stage of cultural development, which means accepting all the actualities of their time. The form of popular music today has more to do with structure of society than with aesthetic judgment.
>>15167063
>>15167091
Read up on Mannerism. The western notion of Greek art and culture is a fiction. It's a projection of what renaissance thinkers and artist thought Greek art was all about. This ideal is a reconstruction. Just loo at how this "greek ideal" has been transformed and interpreted by the different periods from the arts seconda of Montervedi to the classicist like Roussau and then by the romatics like Wagner. The greek ideal might as well just mean whatever you want.

>>15167116
So? Some people think Schopenhauer is a relevant philosopher

>>15167057
I don't think it's a fad. All other music is dead in the eyes of this new generation if you look at the numbers.

>>15165550

>>15167014
You fucking moron, he was talking about music to be used specifically and only during in the Mass

>>15167151
What numbers?

>>15167074
Again so you don't see the decline you see rap as something equal to classical music just like ya fantasy novels like Harry Potter would be to Tolstoy it's the same exact thing. Harry Potter is technical and took effort and is well loved. Since nothing is objective I can't argue against it but I can laugh at you and call you retarded for thinking it.

>>15167174
Spotify monthly listening counts. Twitter followers. Whatever numbers you want to look at.

>>15167175
imagine being such a brainlet that you think that something being qualitative means its subjective.

>>15167141
We have the texts of Euripedes, Aeschylos and Sophocles, lol. And Wagner based his grand theory of art on the latest scientific/philological findings of his time. I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Obviously people throughout history have interpreted the Greeks differently and thought different things about them. Wagner's theories still hold up, especially in his last phase (after his discovery of Schopenhauer, in which he pretty much abandoned the Gesamtkunstwerk to favor music as the highest art once more).
Similarly, you can have remarkable "tier list" of all the arts if you judge art by Schopenhauer's aesthetics, and, going further, rank different pieces of art accordingly. Werther is a better novel than Pride & Prejudice judging by Schopenhauer's standards. You can disagree with the standards, but that's another thing entirely from shouting from the rooftops that "standards of art don't exist and all is subjective".

>>15167181
the most streamed artists of 2010s are Drake and Ed Sheeran, who basically just make pop music. I know Drake raps but I dont think that's where his huge numbers come from.

>>15167181
Bots and frat kids player there music over and over again, who cares. Great artists and musicians are still getting attention and appreciation. Fucking vulfpeck just sold out madison square garden, stop taking the mobs opinions so seriously

>>15167201
Are Drake and Ed Sheeran examples of great music?

>>15167167
You know nothing about the history of music. The tradition that Wagner belongs to begins with church music and slowly becomes secularized. Wagner has absolutely nothing to do with any folk music tradition that existed at the time of John of Salisbury. The composes he is talking about were among the first to even annotate rhythm. Go back to your containment board.

>>15167211
God you're a retard

>>15167202
Vulfpeck only has a million monthly listeners

>>15167220
>Only one million

>>15167211
I think they're both fine, Ed Sheeran is a good singer, Drake is clearly good at putting together different forms of trendy music, but I wasn't the guy championing mumblerap. I dont have a problem with mumblerap either though I think it's ridiculous to compare it to art music.

>>15167189
No one in this thread said
>standards of art don't exist and all is subjective

>>15167224
Compared to 60 million and 100% of one million is the single weird indie kid at some school

>>15167228
>Ed Sheeran is a good singer,
oh no

>>15165550
Not even in the nostalgic, idealised Vienna of Stefan Zweig's memory did the mass actually engage with higher culture directly.

>>15167236
One million is one million though

>>15167213
that's what I am saying
The bishop was talking about polyphonic music used in mass being more important than the text
This led to so many problems and fights until the church had to change it's rules during the counter reformation
of course all of Western music is based on church modes which has roots in the greeks
you obviously failed music history class

>>15167248
That's not a lot? No one is saying there isn't good art being made just that it's not popular.

>>15165550
This is the 4chan post equivalent of wanting to go "back to" a Norman Rockwell painting. Lol.

>>15167252
One million is popular though, its not a small number at all.

>>15167241
Do you honestly think he's bad at singing

>>15167264
>go "back to" a Norman Rockwell painting. Lol.
What's wrong with that?

>>15167236
This is like saying because Eddie Hall deadlifted a ton a six-hundred-fifty pound deadlift is weak

>>15167280
If you walked into any random school right now how many kids you think are going to know who the fuck vulfpeck is?

>>15167295
Why does that matter at all?

>>15167271
He isn't bad like the average person who can't sing bad but he does the annoying generic indie pop vocals. He isn't even mid tier for popular radio pop singers.

>>15167189
The claim here being that those standards are contingent based on a million different assumptions or givens. And that the "decline" of art will always come from a vantage point that is itself unfounded beyond opinion. The only thing that is objective here is that historically each generation complains about the next's taste. And most definitely, following Salisbury's example, Wagner is pure degeneracy. And there is zero way to argue against this objectively. Kant puts it very simply that aesthetic judgement can't be rationalized.

>>15167251
You have no idea what you're saying. The counter reformation doesnt even occur until after the mannerist period and early baroque occurs, by which time renaissance polyphony had already been the standard of church music for almost two hundred years and falling out of vogue to more expressionist monody. Try again. Salisbury's quote is about the music itself being too expressive and ornamented and corrupting the purpose of it, which is to reflect on God, not have a good sensory time.

>>15167321
Are you the guy who can't play a single instrument?

>>15167299
The whole discussion is popular things in our times being terrible so naming good almost obscure bands doesn't add anything to the conversation that we didn't already know.

>>15167333
Again, one million is not obscure

>>15167331
Yes but that's still not an argument. You never responded to that guy who called you out about not being able to sculpt or make a movie.

>>15167351
It's not popular though which is what we are talking about. Unless you're going to suggest one billion and 8 million are similar numbers.

>>15167352
Yes I did.

>>15167275
It wasn't real. It was a romanticised image of what was going on for maybe a select group of people. It's basically propaganda.

Bosch was more realistic.

>>15167373
No, but a person with 8 million dollars is still wealthy even if there are people who have billion dollar fortunes.

>>15167325
>The claim here being that those standards are contingent based on a million different assumptions or givens.
Ad fundum this is true of *anything* not just aesthetics, but epistemology, ethics, logic, the whole lot.
>The only thing that is objective here is that historically each generation complains about the next's taste.
Which doesn't mean they're necessarily wrong.
>Kant puts it very simply that aesthetic judgement can't be rationalized.
Schopenhauer's aesthetics are intimately tied to his metaphysics, which in turn borrows a lot from Kant. So in a way, Schopenhauer gives you an "objective" system. Of course, most people just do away with his metaphysics, which leaves his aesthetics without a foundation. I'll give you that. If you take Schopenhauer's ideas on art, and use them heuristically instead of dogmatically, they tend to be good predictors of what will turn out to be good art. The Lindy effect is another such heuristic. At least for me personally (in the first case) and for most people, in the latter case.

>>15167376
Do you spend all this time on this because you feel insecure about your shitty taste in art and need a way to make yourself feel better? If everything is subjective no one can make fun of me.

>>15167389
Yes but in a conversation about being able to buy an entire country you would not bring up the guy with 8 million

>>15167392
Look up the definition of the word qualitative you fucking nigger.

>>15167404
So, eight million is worthless?

>>15167408
You've never said how that makes your argument valid

>>15167422
You are trolling me right

>>15167423
Which one? You're literally musically illiterate
>>15167429
No, you're a relativist who doesn't realize he is.

>>15167437
>Which one? You're literally musically illiterate
And your filmically illiterate so you better not ever talk about movies

Also the cope

>he can't play an instrument that means I'm not a pleb for thinking ed sheeran is a great singer

>>15167378
I feel bad for you if you think pictures of families smiling is unrealistic propaganda

>>15167391
>Ad fundum this is true of *anything* not just aesthetics, but epistemology, ethics, logic, the whole lot.
"Anyone who denies the law of non-contradiction should be beaten and burned until he admits that to be beaten is not the same as not to be beaten, and to be burned is not the same as not to be burned." -Avicenna

But what is "good" and "bad" in this context will always be mediated by some framework that is itself mediated. But more specifically, the "decline" is subjective and even within a metaphysics, you have to come up with some prescriptive notions in order to identify a "good" piece of art. And these prescriptions are never logically grounded on a metaphysics solely, since these intend to describe nature, but must be supplemented with other mediating notions. For example, if you subscrube to the metaphysical notion that art has an end or a purpose, you still need to be able to justify why "good" art must follow this nature, and so on until you reach the point that the distinction comes from mere subjective acceptance.

>>15167463
1) That wasn't me
2) He's really not a bad singer, if you like Simon and Garfunkel you really can't hate ed sheeran.
Again, you're confusing your own personal taste with objective quality.

>>15167483
I'm not the biggest Simon & Garfunkel fan but are you suggesting Ed Sheeran is that high up or Simon & Garfunkel are that low. I don't get the annoying generic indie pop vocals from Simon & Garfunkel personally but maybe you know something I don't since you play the banjo

>>15167503
I play piano, you're pathetic.

>>15167477
>"Anyone who denies the law of non-contradiction should be beaten and burned until he admits that to be beaten is not the same as not to be beaten, and to be burned is not the same as not to be burned." -Avicenna
Why are arabs like this lol

>>15167483
>Again, you're confusing your own personal taste with objective quality.
I never said it was objective did I? .

>>15167518
Cause they know what's up. This is the best argument i've ever seen for logic and truth and difference. You intuitive know that contradiction is real ad even if you try to weasel away with sophistry, your body will remind you how full of bullshit you are.

>>15167527
>Are there any books that talk about the degradation of culture and the decline of the arts? There used to be a time when the common man would read and discuss literature, classical music, architecture etc. but none of this happens today.

>>15165550
>There used to be a time when the common man would read and discuss literature, classical music, architecture etc. but none of this happens today.
Source.

>>15167550
Where do you get objective from that? All of that is my opinion.

>>15167527
So your likes and dislikes are based off your personal taste?

>>15165740
The name of the factory owner is Jewish. Still doesn't make sense for it to be anti-Semitic though unless you think being a Jewish factory owner is bad.
>>15165747
Tired of people acting like Cardi B is just a modern Etta James or Twilight is like The Scarlet Letter. Pop culture is clearly dumber than what it once was. The common man was better off in fields than watching The Bachelor after 8-5 for the system and dying of heart disease at 70 on 10 different meds

>>15167585
Yes?

>>15167578
I'm not OP, but >>15167065

https://aeon.co/essays/why-working-class-britons-loved-reading-and-debating-the-classics

>>15167579
try reading this again than lmao you stupid boot headed nigger.
>>15166349
I was saying you shouldn't put a number on something that you can't quantize. And that while I have my own tastes, they are not objective.

>>15167590
How is this different then people who love science because they watched cosmos as a kid

>>15167615
>nigger.
wow racist much

>>15167632
I'm using it in the classical sense

>>15167650
based