/lit/ - Literature

>>15140676
Why did you make this thread again?

>>15140700
Cause it's interesting and I want to hear what /lit/ thinks about CT. I'm not spamming, so it isn't against the rules.

Imagine being a leftist and having to pay cringing obeisance to this every time you want to talk about class politics lol

>>15140799
It's what pushed me right, actually. All the left does is theorize and masturbate over their identities.

I think it's been pretty much shown that the CIA did this to the left on purpose in order to neuter it, no?

Have you even read critical theory? I couldn't make much sense out of the OP, but in no shape or form are they trying to turn everyone into revolutionaries. Infact one of the main tenents of the critical theory was the apparent impossibility of revolution, that's why Adorno and Horkheimer gradually moved away from Marxism.

>>15140836
You sound legitimately retarded. Read Dialectics of Enlightenment.

>>15141528
this seems to be becoming a piece of common wisdom but i'd like to see more proof of it

>>15141562
it's "dialectic" of enlightenment, you're misusing "legitimately" to mean "actually" or "really," adorno and horkheimer didn't move away from marxism but died bitter and hopeless about precisely the sort of thing OP is talking about (the sanitized bourgeois appropriation of marxist critique), read adorno's despairing letters with marcuse where they are explicitly talking about whether revolution is possible and whether the '68 generation hipster fags will be its vehicle (adorno is hopeless and depressed that marcuse is stupid enough to think "college leftists" are anything but poison)

>>15141606
Try saying something of substance the next time, and try not to agree with me while pretending to disagree.

>>15141620
learn to speak your own language and don't comment on things you haven't read. i know you're 20 and trying to figure out which e-political movement to identify with based on its fashion choices, but you have to actually read the books.

actually you don't, only people like me will notice that you haven't read them and you don't seem to care about rebukes from people who "legitimately" know what they're talking about. so maybe you will actually be happier as a zoomer with only vague knowledge of what you're talking about, gleaned from youtube videos. keep doing what you're doing, consider doing it on reddit though.

>>15141639
I'm 28 and don't adhere to any form of Marxism or even accept Critical Theory, you're legitimately retarded and poorly obscuring it. Again: Read Dialectic of Enlightenment, the main tenent, reaching from this work to Minima Memoria and Horkheimer's late philosophy is that revolution cannot be conceived of from within the system that has dominated the enlightenment since its conception. This stance is accepted by all the big names within or closely tied to the Critical Theory, IE, Erich Fromm, Habermas, Ludwig Marcuse and even Walter Benjamin.

Also again: Try disagreeing with me substantially, instead of trying to LARP yourself into some form of intellectual high-ground without addressing anything of substance.

The assertion that Critical Theory assassinated the future of Marxism is, again, legitimately retarded and any defense of this position is also legitimately retarded.

>>15141694
oh you're either trolling or so ESL that it's like stomping on a baby, now i feel bad

>>15140676
>Did critical theory subvert communism?
It achieved the same ultimate goal. A particular minority group dominating others while maintaining it's own status.

>>15140836
You were corralled into a different ideology.
Doesn't sound great to me.
>>15141528
Past tense? I think singling out a culprit is wasted effort, but the manipulation is obvious.

>>15141562
You sound really fucking butthurt. I think the CIA made these guys push anti revolutionary ideas. They promoted Foucault for this very reason.

none of this guys are marxists for the simple fact that they don't do material analysis of reality
open the dialectics of enlightement, or any frankfurt school book for the case: no sight of economic data, no analysis of key dynamic industries, no analysis on the state of class struggle, etc...
all they can do is read some 2000 year old books like the illiad and jack off to their thoughts on them
open, on the contrary, a book by the late Marx. It's theory and data, history and concepts, and a lot of politics.
Adorno, frankfurt school, post structuralism, etc. none of that is "cultural marxism" and never was

>>15141694
"revolution cannot be conceived of from within the system that has dominated the enlightenment since its conception"
none of this means anything
it's just mental masturbation
what about economic tendencies? what about capital concentration and an increase in inequality, therefore in class struggle, etc.? what are these people analyzing?

>>15142917
What is it, then? I find it odd how the left seems to be distancing themselves from these guys now that much of the damage they've caused to society is becoming obvious.

>>15142923
Their Freud perverted their Marx. We're literally seeing a revolution against the system today as capitalism reaches it's late stages. Both the right and the left are rebelling against it.

>>15142995
it's theory done with a purpose: liberating humanity from all forms of oppression, of which capitalism is the last one that will stand when all traditions are eroded and eradicated (which is happening)
and what this theory tells us is that class struggle is intrinsic to capitalism; this may not be obvious sometimes (like in the sixties) but it's an evident truth revealed by the discovery of the laws of motion of the capitalist system and proved by history time and time again. now, where does this class struggle goes? it not always ends up in a revolution ofc, and this is where you need a theory of the party, a theory of the organization of mass rebelions once they happen (something that you don't decide but inevitably happens)

>>15143024
yes
it's amazing the lack of empirical analysis that you can find in these authors. not one set of data, not a single try to make science, when Marx dedicated most of his life to advancing science
what do these people read? they don't read Marx ofc. They're basically bourgeois like Adorno who read "the classical canon" and bourgeois ideologies like psychoanalysis

>>15141528
They just wanted to make it anti-USSR because most Communist Parties' loyalties were to Moscow.

>>15143152
Well, it's kind being proven that the USSR was the good guy in a lot of ways....

stop shilling this thread and read a book dumbass

>>15143373
Discuss ideas, brainlet

>>15143186
Was it?

>>15143443
I mean, their implementation was bad. Their critique of capitalism and imperialism were pretty correct, imo

>>15143083
Lol keep being a slave to instrumental reason, and ofc they read there Marx. Read them or an overview that's not a conspiracy theory.

>>15143516
>I mean, their implementation was bad.
Most Russians would disagree.

>>15143933
>haha science is like, bad, bc not everything can be reducted to reason and you turn reason into an end in itself
shut the fuck up fag
your silly critiques have done nothing to improve anyone's life
science has lifted millions of people out of poverty and has improved humanity; the fact that it's misused by capitalism doesn't mean we should just become jerks who reject it
yes, marxism is concerned with the progress of humanity; that's the way it is and that's how it should be for any sane person other than for bourgeois fags who want to critique everything for the sake of looking smart and satisfying their narccisism

>>15143966
>MUHterial progress

>>15144265
if you don't """believe""" in any of this do what Ted K did anon

>>15143966
then why is global income inequality increasing rather than decreasing, as even the shills of the neoliberal order are willing to confess? I'm not that guy btw; I don't know what kind of Marxist I am yet, or if I am one at all. But I certainly don't agree with the dogma of some Marxists, that there is a cut and dry correlation of material abundance and general happiness. There is real truth to the traditional wisdom that material uplift often goes hand-in-hand with spiritual degradation. Of course, the great religions were only able to conceptualize this in terms of the individual because the idea of society as a whole being uplifted was unthinkable, but I think you can't just dismiss Horkheimer and Adorno's critique out of hand as being made up problems. btw I didn't read your whole exchange there so maybe I'm missing something

>>15144343
>dogma of some Marxists, that there is a cut and dry correlation of material abundance and general happiness
That doesn´t seem like Marxist dogma at all. Especially critical theory fags are more about anti-consumerism.

>>15140676
>Did critical theory subvert communism?
Sort of. The commies were threatened with irrelevance so they opened the doors to every other variety of diligence, first the greens, then the queers, then everyone else. They needed a justification for the 'rainbow' of different concerns and how they could all be part of the same "movement", critical theory gave them the excuse they needed - intersectionality. 30 years later the concerns of the original communists have completely irrelevant and the whole 'movement' has turned into an intercenine shitfight.

>>15144737
'diligence'? I meant 'dissidents.'

>>15144741
I'm noticing more and more commies on /pol/. Do you think they're turning "right-wing"? It certainly smells that way. Seeing a lot of them being critical of tranny infiltration.

>>15143058
I like the way you are thinking ! What could you recommend a brainlet to read ?

>>15141582
It’s literally bragged about on the CIA website
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/95unclass/Warner.html

>>15145235
i'm just regurgitating marx, lenin, gramsci, and other classics of marxism
basically stick to the people who actually committed to politics and not to armchair intellectuals and you'll be okay
idk if you never read Marx you could start with the 1844 manuscripts, the manifesto, the 18th brumaire of louis bonaparte, wage labour and capital, Capital too (if you can stand the thousands of pages)
from lenin you can read texts like The state and the revolution, what is to be done, etc.
but Marx should give you all the insights

>>15145235
also read the theses on feuerbach, they're like 2 pages long lol

>>15141582
>>15145245
They also funded the Partisan Review which was affiliated with people like Susan Sontag
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partisan_Review#Funding_by_the_C.I.A..
>The magazine was launched in 1934 by the Communist Party, USA–affiliated John Reed Club of New York and was initially part of the Communist political orbit.
>Although vehemently denied by founding editor William Phillips, in the years after the fall of the Soviet Union it was revealed that Partisan Review was the recipient of money from the Central Intelligence Agency as part of its effort to shape intellectual opinion in the so-called "cultural cold war."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Sontag#Criticism
>Sontag drew criticism for writing in 1967 in the Partisan Review: If America is the culmination of Western white civilization, as everyone from the Left to the Right declares, then there must be something terribly wrong with Western white civilization. This is a painful truth; few of us want to go that far.... The truth is that Mozart, Pascal, Boolean algebra, Shakespeare, parliamentary government, baroque churches, Newton, the emancipation of women, Kant, Marx, Balanchine ballets, et al, don't redeem what this particular civilization has wrought upon the world. The white race is the cancer of human history

>>15145235
Read Deneen's 'Why Liberalism Failed' for one... I can't tell if the person you're replying to is being ironic about 'liberating from all forms of tradition and oppression', but the erosion of tradition, community and ritual is a much bigger problem than nebulous economic conceptions of 'capitalism'. Basically superficial identity ideologies are created and endorsed by political parties--vote for them and the government will promote and protect your particular fringe group. Then again for the next group and so on, (now legit 2nd wave feminists, once the darlings of progress, are considered TERFs when they don't think dickless men should be allowed to thrash them at sport. soon trannies will get tossed asunder for the next bright idea). The 'working class' actually thrives on religion and family (two institutions that foster self-reliance and local community, sorry bigstate), and all the patronising chatter to the contrary from the rootless striver class serves only to control discourse... the ability to 'cancel' (demobilise, deradicalise) anyone by the use of contentless accusations of -isms... oh you're an inspirational worker's movement leader SORRY YOU SAID THE R WORD ON TWITTER BYE BYE back to hegemonic business as usual. 110 IQ college educated nitwits have formed a dastardly edifice in the media, advocating for groups that don't share their goals and should not become dependent on them--their diversity will be subsumed into homogenous liberalism in service of the mighty GDP line

>>15145319
>The white race is the cancer of human history
What the fuck is wrong with the CIA

>>15145342
They just correctly identified that binding leftism at the hip to this sort of over the top anti-white dogmatism would thoroughly delegitimize it. See also Occupy

>>15145342
They are a pawn maybe a knight of the people who control the money supply, central banks and fractional reserve banking in general, here is the history and solution to it if you want to do something about it https://www.bitchute.com/video/lSaKoijh6YDd/

>>15141528
the frankfurt school, as in the communist jews who fled for america because the germans were onto them, long predate the existence of the cia. nice cope, faggot

>>15145385
>over the top anti-white dogmatism
This is what most leftists believe though. They take a real glee in it.

>>15145550
And it was pushed by the CIA. The left did not believe this before the CIA pushed these things through funding of Congress for Cultural Freedom et al. Arguably these "cultural leftists" are not leftists at all

>>15145568
i'll believe that shit when i see leftists calling for the repeal of the civil rights act

>>15145572
why would they do that??

>>15145482
>long predate the existence of the cia.
but not OSS

>>15145568
>And it was pushed by the CIA
lmao no. This is the historically illiterate story that leftists and frogtwitter tell themselves. It's certainly true that the CIA took control of much of this stuff eventually, but the original people that started this were the Soviets. Go look into the early backers of the Black Panther party and who paid and trained them all. The entire early "gay liberation" movement was founded by an open member of the CPUSA (Harry Hay). This whole idea that it was just the CIA is such a midwit take.

>>15145627
>the Black Panther party
and? they were based?
>he entire early "gay liberation"
the early movement was nothing like what came later. at the beginning they were overtly socialist in the real sense, not idpol
>whole idea that it was just the CIA is such a midwit take.
wrong the cia admits this on their own site

>>15140676
It was invented by the French. What did you expect?

>>15145642
>they were based?
sorry, that was not meant as a question lol

>>15145568
they did, look at what American Communists actually said in the 1930s. the CIA promoted this sort of stuff because the sorts of people who became Communists in America c. 1930 went on to become higher ups in the CIA c. 1960. anti-white stuff is a logical development on the American left which has always been centered on Black issues.

>>15140676
You are drastically over-rating the role of critical theory in development of leftism and ignoring the national traditions.

>all sorts of middle-class humbug sections, free-lovers, spiritists, spiritist Shakers, etc.
>middle-class humbugs and worn-out Yankee swindlers in the reform business
>Thus it came about that the people who preached the evangels of free love sat fraternally beside those who wanted to bring to the whole world the blessing of a single common language -- land cooperativists, spiritualists, atheists, and deists -- each striving to ride his own hobbyhorse.
Are the words with which Karl Marx described the American section. Sounds quite like the phenomen you are trying to blame on frankfurters, doesn´t it?

>>15145703
>the American left which has always been centered on Black issues.
they centered on black issues because of literal discriminatory laws at the time. and black issues are still relevant, and that's not the same thing as idpol.

>>15145337
>erosion of tradition, community, and ritual

>tradition
But there is a tradition, it's antiracism
>community
"What about the black community, the mestizo community, the LGBTQ community, etc."
>ritual
one example of a contemporary ritual is "Hi, I'm X and here are my pronouns and the ways in which I might be privileged:", Black History Month could be another.

>>15145717
It will literally always be centered on black issues because inequality isn't going away, the role of the American left is to be black advocates above all else. modern idpol is an extension of this concept - the various "oppressed minorities" in the US today are essentially just generalized black people.

>>15145642
>and? they were based?
This is always the case with you slimy rats. If it is not your fault, then it is good. Thanks anyway for owning up to the fact that identity politics was being supported by the Soviets before the CIA got their hands on it.
>the early movement was nothing like what came later. at the beginning they were overtly socialist in the real sense, not idpol
Yes it was. The commie gay liberation guys all supported NAMBLA you fucking pedo supporter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Hay
>wrong the cia admits this on their own site
Read a book on pre cold war history you fucking retarded faggot. See pic related for a random one. It's the exact same shit taking place today: gatekeeping literary commie types using idpol but before the OSS/CIA.

>>15145741
ok, retard. i don't think you realize how long of a time "always". you sound histrionic

>>15145763
You sound like someone who got his history from reddit posts.

>>15145763
>always
~200 years. Idpol isn't going to go anywhere mate, it's an organic development out of American circumstances. I'm just saying that people are claiming something like "A CIA conspiracy against Real Marxism(tm)" when the situation is closer to the Sino-Soviet split.

>>15145761
>Thanks anyway for owning up to the fact that identity politics was being supported by the Soviets before the CIA got their hands on it.
The funny thing about this is: who do people who attribute idpol to CIA conspiracies think the CIA is actually staffed by on this front? protip: in America it's largely the aforementioned college literary-leftist types.

>>15140676
>a way for the ruling class to neutralize challenges to them in academia by injecting a kind of revolutionary schizophrenia which balkanizes groups into mutually contradictory individuals
Hyper-normalization. Active measures. Tavistock. More or less: Yes. The capitalist yolk on free enterprise is a vanishingly small cohort of stupendously wealthy individuals, and their entropic tendrils.

>>15145184
I don't have a sense of that but I can say that old school communists like the wobblies and the International Socialist Organization were basically USSR front organizations so they were completely incompatible with modern western Liberalism.

>>15145821
>yolk

>>15140676
it's always Jews

The way you are all talking about "Critical Theory" as if it's just one definite thing that came from the frankfurt school is so weird. totally out of touch

>>15140836
>It's what pushed me right, actually. All the left does is theorize and masturbate over their identities.
Jesus Christ the irony

The 'left' has created the modern world while the right jacks off to nazi memorabilia, "b-b-but they weren't death camps" trolling and jacked up third world wannabe Mussolinis

>>15146261
God I wish we could have another Mussolini. Don't tease me like that.

>>15146261
So you admit the left is capitalist.

>>15145721
ideas like 'POCs' erase the legitimate grievances or specific interests of say slave-descendant blacks (managerial class brahmin women get to brandish a 'progressive' scold terminology that cements their power, puts them above whites in their oppression hierarchy)... Ethnonarcissism is an effective power grab, unfortunately working class whites are fodder given the way the media frames race relations.

One can't have diversity, plurality, in a liberal society. True cultural (moral) differences are exactly that. The contortions needed to champion blacks and muslims while promoting homosexuality...

>>15140676
It's the antithesis to the school system, which is full of conformist and uniformist propaganda to make everybody as similar as possible, so that market trends become predictable and people become predictable to them.

>>15140676
yes

>>15146261
>The 'left' has created the modern world
Soon it will perish in the ocean of debt it needed for its grey torment cubes, built by cheap, illegal foreign slaves.

>>15146706
It's not about having a consistent moral code, there's a hierarchy of victimhood and in general you're allowed to hold negative views of castes above you in the hierarchy, but not below. For example, it's okay for a black to condemn a white gay person but not vice versa because blacks are bigger victims than white gays. But a black shouldn't say such things to a gay black - and said gay black should be aware of their privilege relative to a black transwoman.

Critical Theory has virtually zero influence in left organizing. So no, not really.
The only serious material examples I can think of are Angela Davis being taught by and receiving a letter of recommendation from Adorno, and May '68 with the Situationists.

Gimme a qrd on critical theory

>>15148222
Catch-all for 20th century marxist theory primarily focused on the function and development of alienation, commodity fetishism, culture, and ideology as informed (to varying degrees) by psychoanalysis.
Kicked off by Georgy Lukacs and Antonio Gramsci, followed by the Frankfurt School (Adorno, Benjamin, Fromm, Habermas, Horkheimer, Kracauer, Marcuse). The timing of it has a lot to do with the discovery of Marx's 1848 Manuscripts, which were focused a lot on the said subjects.

Often called "Neo-Marxists" for their critique of certain elements of Classical Marxist analysis of the economy, as well as a general distrust/skepticism of Lenin and the Soviet Union.

>>15147784
It's amazing how much modern leftism resembles a caste system.

>>15148351
Why do you think Indians assimilate so well into it?

>>15147784
Who wins between a straight middle class black man and a poor white trans woman

>>15148483
Black guy.

>>15140676
Critical theory has some useful stuff. But its rejection of materialism and lack of a class basis means it ultimately failed to do anything useful.

>>15148487
are you sure?

>>15148507
If the transperson is racist, they will be scolded, but transphobia by the black guy will be more or less ignored imo. It's pretty close though.

>>15148500
>rejection of materialism and lack of a class basis
I don't know what theorists you're talking about, but none of the heavy hitters reject either of these. The Frankfurts are entirely about class and materialism (Adorno famously attacked Benjamin for not being having enough dialectics.)

>>15148514
If they're racist yeah, but what if the transperson accuses the black guy over talking over them or something.

>>15148522
Sounds like a racist microaggression imo

>>15148521
>Adorno famously attacked Benjamin for not being having enough dialectics.
What does that mean

>>15148572

He's saying Adorno famously attacked Benjamin for not being having enough about to even go want to do dialectics.

>>15148572
Lol I fucked up
Adorno attacked Benjamin's historical analysis for not being "dialectical enough"