/lit/ - Literature

>>15112948
Fuck you life is great stop being such a pessimist faggot

>>15112959
>life is great
Good for you, but for plenty of people it isn't.

It may not be great, but it is worth it.

>>15112973
Too bad lmao

There is no joy without suffering. I would rather have the opportunity to enjoy life than never having lived.

>>15112948
>refute this
Benatar is a loser.
Try learning from winners instead.

>>15112982
Life is joyful besides occasional interruptions of suffering

Daily reminder

>>15112983
Everyone is already aware that natalists don't care about the suffering they cause, of course.

>>15112991
Based and true

>>15112948
a little suffering builds character

>>15112994
yeah we don't; in fact we enjoy your suffering

>>15112994
just don't suffer lmao

>>15112948
Antinatalists could significantly reduce my suffering by killing themselves, but they don't even have the decency to do that. They continue to live just to spite the healthy.

>>15112994
HELLOOOOOOO DING DONG?
why would you suffer though? why would you do that

>>15113001
>>15113005
>>15113018
So this is the power of natalism...

I want to have children and I don't care if they suffer

>>15113035
At least you're honest.

I have slowly come to the conviction that antinatalist yammering is the single greatest source of suffering in this world.

>>15113040
Yep

I'll do my best to make them intelligent and strong individuals capable of enjoying life and loving their existence

Saying 'yes' to life as that Kraut put it

Nothing would make me happier than to have never been born.

>>15113035
>I want to have children and I don't care if they suffer
exactly, the strong can endure and find joy despite the suffering

>>15113028
I think /lit/ is just tired of antinatalists at this point and their more than obvious cope. Your entire worldview depends upon
1) the notion that YOU alone somehow know and understand what every single person experiences, and that even when they tell you they are having a good time, you still have the arrogance to say "you're actually suffering", as if you had a claim to their subjective experience that they don't.
2) You claim existence isn't worth it, yet continue to burden us with your existence. And then when called out on this obvious contradiction, you weasel out of it by claiming some intuitionist bullshit about how "the fear of death is inherent to life" as if that didn't immediately contradiction you're supposed "cold logic" about how the suffering of existence is quantifiably larger than non existence and therefore not worth it, completely disregarding how many vitalists and formerly joyful people were more than willing to kill themselves when life became unbearable to them due to extraneous circumstances (i.e Delueze).
Your life sucks and you cope with it by projecting your own suffering into an ontology with no way to prove or validate your claim except by saying "you have to be super duper aware like me in order to tell".

>>15113124
I don't really care what other people do. Even if I could convince everyone to not have children, I wouldn't do it, because I don't give a fuck about you. I will not be cause of bringing another life into existence, however. The "why don't you kill yourself" argument is, as usual, meaningless and misses the point.

>>15113124
you have to refute all of these 9 nine giants first faggot

>>15113005
>natalists can’t refute this

>>15113124
/thread

>>15113015
anti-natalism is argue against procreation, it has nothing to do with suicide

>>15113150
>The "why don't you kill yourself" argument is, as usual, meaningless and misses the point.
No, it doesn't. You're whole worldview is
>life is more bad than good, therefore bringing someone into existence is immoral
>But, anon, if life is more bad than good, and nonexistence is preferred, why do you continue to live? If nonexistence is preferred why do you chose existence?
>you're missing the point
>????

>>15113186
Don't tell me what my worldview is. I don't want to experience dying. This is my primary concern.

>>15113124
Everything is temporary. Everything is locked in perpetual discord of hatred that in the end, doesn't even matter. You live 100 years if you are lucky, a drop in the bucket. Social analysis has shown even our deepest values to be nothing but products of our time. The people who you love and who love you love for specific self-benefiting reasons. At the core, one cannot escape this.

No one can overcome this simple reality of life. I don't care what sort of philosophical system you create to cope with it. You are thrown into a world and doomed to die. All the coping strategies for such a thing are absurd. The amount of time you spend happy in life will be at the very least, less than the time you are spent feeling decent, if not much worse.

Every new pleasure you experience is another pleasure you will be spent wanting when you do not have it. Therefor, it is better to experience as little as possible and to give up even life itself. This is the harsh truth to which all noble men have arrived. There is nothing worth fighting for in the world. Nothing worth attaching oneself to.

>>15113183
And this is how you can tell it's cope. If you're trying to protect somehow form something, wouldn't you also want to get rid of it if they caught it? If existence is a disease you're tying to prevent, you would also want to have a cure for it.
>>15113160
Ligotti has never made an argument
Schopenhauer isn't a antinat, but even so, Nietzsche already has several "refutations"
Pessoa is a literal loser and he says it himself, obviously coping

>>15113183
If life is bad enough not to bring anyone into it, it's bad enough not to stay in it.
>waah waah killing myself is scary
People do it all the time, get over yourself and cut your losses.

>>15113190
Deal with it

>>15113222
Thanks for your helpful response. The issue is insoluble for a living person -- suicide can only render it under your own control. The only way of "dealing with it" is to not bring anyone into this situation to begin with.

>>15113190
>I don't want to experience dying. This is my primary concern.
And why don't you want to experience dying? What is so awful about dying that it's worth suffering through existence? It's obvious to everyone that regardless how much of a loser you are and how much you claim life sucks, you want to continue it in order to keep fapping to your animu girls and shitpost on lit while eating doritos. You still enjoy it enough to not want to lose it. There's many ways to commit suicide without feeling anything or being conscious. You are again, like every antinat, weaseling your way out of it. Everything is cold logic and suffering math until it comes to suicide, huh.

>>15112948
imagine being this sad of a cunt that you literally "wish you'd never been born"
only a perpetually depressed cuckold anglo could generate this type of philosophy

>>15113241
Life's pretty great if you get your head out of your ass

>>15113208
>“If children were brought into the world by an act of pure reason alone, would the human race continue to exist? Would not a man rather have so much sympathy with the coming generation as to spare it the burden of existence, or at any rate not take it upon himself to impose that burden upon it in cold blood?”
― Arthur Schopenhauer, Studies in Pessimism: The Essays

>“The pessimist’s credo, or one of them, is that nonexistence never hurt anyone and existence hurts everyone.”
― Thomas Ligotti

>>15113183
Oh so its just a LARP then, and you're a "depressed" faggot? Yeah you really should kill yourself. If you're not willing to shed yourself of the existence that YOU (dont project shit onto other people) hate so much, then you dont believe what you're saying. Kill yourself, retard

>>15113246
>Let me tell you about your psychology
Thanks.
>>15113262
This is very helpful advice a well, thanks.

>>15113263
I'm going to have children and raise them to be so intelligent that they'll write essays about why these people are massive retards

>>15113256
Arabs and greeks thought about it first you abderite.

>>15113256

>>15113195
>Everything is temporary. Everything is locked in perpetual discord of hatred that in the end, doesn't even matter. You live 100 years if you are lucky, a drop in the bucket. Social analysis has shown even our deepest values to be nothing but products of our time. The people who you love and who love you love for specific self-benefiting reasons. At the core, one cannot escape this.
>No one can overcome this simple reality of life. I don't care what sort of philosophical system you create to cope with it. You are thrown into a world and doomed to die. All the coping strategies for such a thing are absurd. The amount of time you spend happy in life will be at the very least, less than the time you are spent feeling decent, if not much worse.
>Every new pleasure you experience is another pleasure you will be spent wanting when you do not have it. Therefor, it is better to experience as little as possible and to give up even life itself. This is the harsh truth to which all noble men have arrived. There is nothing worth fighting for in the world. Nothing worth attaching oneself to.
>>>
> Anonymous 04/16/20(Thu)10:49:01 No.15113208▶
>Everything is temporary. Everything is locked in perpetual discord of hatred that in the end, doesn't even matter. You live 100 years if you are lucky, a drop in the bucket. Social analysis has shown even our deepest values to be nothing but products of our time. The people who you love and who love you love for specific self-benefiting reasons. At the core, one cannot escape this.
Oh no, Im a organism with a consciousness, awareness, a capacity for greater intelligence, creativity in a universe of dead matter. Im capable of making great material feats and exploit my sensations in order to reach heights of pleasure unimaginable to anything else in the universe. What a bad deal!

>No one can overcome this simple reality of life. I don't care what sort of philosophical system you create to cope with it. You are thrown into a world and doomed to die. All the coping strategies for such a thing are absurd. The amount of time you spend happy in life will be at the very least, less than the time you are spent feeling decent, if not much worse.
Here, the antinat again extrapolates his subjective experience to everyone else in the world. Unaware that this perspective is as much a personal philosophic system and isn’t any more logical or rational than a vitalist or optimistic one. Disregarding all the scientific evidence that worldviews like this are easily affected by hormonal and chemical constitutions and could be as easily affected through action and treatment.

>>15113292
ask your wife to shit out a whole football team, i don't give shit lmaooo

>>15113331
I'll ask all 10 of them

>>15113210
I'm not one to tell someone to kill themselves just like that, but anon is right.

If life is so shit that it'd be downright despicable to procreate, why still let it fizzle out like that? Why are anti-natalists to pussy to bomb maternity wards or something?

>>15113339
based go for 20

>>15113263
Yeah, and then schopes goes on to say how love is the will of the next generation trying to come into existence.
You cant just pick and choose what you like from a philosopher in order to put him in your camp.

>>15113354
I'll be the next Geingas Khan and all 10,000 of my kids will work to refute r*dditors

>>15113277
You mean, the same way antinats do to the whole world?
>"You're life is actually suffering, you just don't realize it"
like >>15113195 >>15113319

>>15113356
the thing is he talked a lot of shit about existence and praised the calm of non existence
show me one place where he said that non-existence is bad

>>15113369
>Someone else said this, so there.
Cool.

>>15113369
lmaooo that's Buddha himself who said that quote and established a whole religion to cope with pessimism

>>15113374
That doesn't make him an antinat. Schopes recognizes the will's struggle to life and to come into existence as he does in his essay on love and in his actual fucking philosophic treatise. Schopes personally (per his essays) sees the struggle as stupid and doesnt care for it, but he isn't an idiot that plays dumb and doesn't recognize why people choose to live.

>>15113364
rapist piece of fucking shit

>>15113396
I'm just a Gent

>>15113376
>my specific brand of antinatalism
Very disingenuous of you to associate with a whole worldview and then avoid wanting to be associated with its usual claims and positions. As if antinatalist dont make psychological claims about others all the time in order to make their points

>>15113394
show me litreally one quote where he praised the procreation

>>15112948
>The one and only guaranteed way to prevent a roof from leaking is not to build a roof in the first place.

If my children don't exist, I haven't spared them anything. Benatar's entire argument is begging the question by stipulating a priori that only people who can be deprived of pleasure, but that people who don't exist can be deprived of pain.

>>15112959
As a whole, life isn't great. Maybe the individual life of a minority of lucky individuals are great, but the life of the overwhelming majority of the members of the human species are at best mediocre and trite, and they are filled with pointless suffering and frustration.

>>15113415
I think it's unethical to have children. I wasn't aware there was a particular creed I had to subscribe to in order to hold that viewpoint.

I often remind myself that we’re all puppets trapped in a decomposing cage of flesh and bone, with a million desires whirling around us at all times like sirens attempting to lure us to our doom. That these desires are nothing but the conjured demons of economics, society, and evolution and while they promise fulfillment they will only use you to their own ends, increasing their strength over you, leaving you a slave and a broken human. The world of phenomena is a test, projected by the noumena, and to conquer it you must conquer yourself.

Although I might try to convince myself that life has some external value, after a night drinking with “friends” or a sexual encounter with woman, it quickly becomes apparent that most friends are not worth having, and that woman’s sexual desires are so perverse and banal that their even having desired you bears the weight of a bad conscience. What man does not disgrace himself by submitting to a woman’s desires? He becomes a fool, a brute, a scoundrel, a cuckhold, all at once— and looses himself in the process. What man benefits from society? He devoured his life’s work to the machinations of warfare and industry, he trampled the earth, he becomes bound up in stories told to gullible children, he is sold slavery and like an idiot wears his chains with pride.

Service originates in the Latin word "Servi”, meaning slave. That’s what society, friends, woman the whole world, asks from you, your slavery. In English, the familiar for of “you”, “thou”, has long since died from the language. For those lonely men in Anglo countries seeking company, this should be (with honest reflection) enough proof that you will never find it. We live in a civilizational world-spirit which lacks even the words to express friendship, closeness.

There are two things in life worth their weight in gold: freedom and silence. How many men exchange these treasures for paper? Or for a soft touch of flesh? Or for some false sense of meaning to disguise their emptiness?

In books, there is the peace of forming a genuine connection with another person. If you cannot read, write. If you cannot write, read. If you are still lonely, hire a whore; it is less demeaning and less expensive than going to clubs. Logos is the breaking free of the soul from the flesh, embrace this and turn your eyes from the treachery of desire.

>>15113422
I see that as an issue that can be worked on
It's why we have politics, ideas, and well, a lot of stuff actually

>>15113416
For it is the future generation in its entire individual determination which forces itself into existence through the medium of all this strife and trouble. Indeed, the future generation itself is already stirring in the careful, definite, and apparently capricious selection for the satisfaction of the instinct of sex which we call love. That growing affection of two lovers for each other is in reality the
Will to live of the new being, of which they shall become the parents; indeed, in the meeting of their yearning glances the life of a new being is kindled, and manifests itself as a well-organised individuality of the future. The lovers have a longing to be really united and made one being, and to live as such for the rest of their lives; and this longing is fulfilled in the children born to them, in whom the qualities inherited from both, but combined and united in one being, are perpetuated. Contrarily, if a man and woman mutually, persistently, and decidedly dislike each other, it indicates that they could only bring into the world a badly
Organised, discordant, and unhappy being.

>>15112948
just deny utiltiarianism

>>15113035
based

I read him when I was ~18, I was extremely depressed at the time. Fortunately I am no longer and I generally enjoy my life now. Still it's hard to come up with any actual counter-arguments to some of his key positions, you see this in these threads, the anti-anti-natalists are just screeching incoherently. specifically the core theoretical argument (iirc) that you can't be blamed for the lack of pleasure of someone you didn't create, whereas you can be blamed for the suffering of someone you did.
>just kill yourself
is not a good argument, primarily because while life may be good for you in particular, this is not a guarantee that who you bring into the world will also have this, there's a chance they will suffer horifically. whereas it seems strange to count the lack of pleasure of someone who never existed as a loss.

>>15113449
Humanity has existed for over 100,000 years, and the lives of most of the population are still miserable. It's clearly not something that can be solved easily.

>>15113416
>>15113456
rekt

There is no consistent way to be anti-natalist without being pro-death. If anti-natalists were serious, they would kill not only themselves but others as well.

>>15113493
Yes I agree
But, it it certainly a thing to meaningfully strive for.

>>15113512
they tend to say that killing/suicide causes more suffering cause it isn't an instantaneous/painless process, but it's just a cope. utilitarianism has always had trouble justifying the idea that life has inherent value/that killing is bad, and anti-natalism is the ultimate conclusion of that problem

>>15113183
If your life is suffering and you believe suffering to be the greatest moral wrong. So much so that you won't have children as it would increase suffering, then you should be a mass murderer who ends his own life so that the total amount of suffering in the world goes down.

Of course this isn't what you want or believe nor should you.

>>15112948
Thank you for reminding me to go to precisely zero lengths to spare my children from suffering.

here's your typical anti-natalist

>>15113493
>Humanity has existed for over 100,000 years, and the lives of most of the population are still miserable.

Anti-natalists reach this conclusion by denying all empirical evidence. Every single survey on life satisfaction finds people are generally glad to have lived. Anti-natalists explain this by claiming we can't trust people's subjective judgments of their quality of life.

So why the *fuck* should I trust the judgment of the anti-natalist about human quality of life? They are projecting in the original Freudian sense: A personal emotion that causes them pain is interpreted as something outside of themselves.

>>15113527
>they tend to say that killing/suicide causes more suffering cause it isn't an instantaneous/painless process
Indeed, their goal should be to cause as many carbon monoxide leaks as possible.

>>15113422
>this much projection
You're such a faggot that you don't even know how much of a faggot you are.

>>15113544
Have you seen how poor people in third world countries live? I would certainly not consider that kind of existence worth living. The fact that their survival instinct kicked in and they were forced to cope by convincing themselves their lives are worth it does not convince me. Relying on self-reports of happiness is a dangerous road.

>>15113570
Great argument, my whole worldview is shattered. It turns out that living in poverty in India is an awesome existence after all.

>>15113585
Have you seen how poor people in third world countries live?
You mean surrounded by a community and a culture that carves out meaning for from the solidarity of their communal suffering like every disenfranchised community? Creating music, art and other cultural artefacts to fill their life with meaning? Pretty sure boring white people in first world countries with 9-5s are more depressed and tired of their lives than poor third worlders.
My proof: all antinats are white and first worlders

>>15113585
You're not them. You don't know how happy or unhappy they are at any given moment. In fact they're definitely happier than you because they haven't read themselves into limp-wristed cock-sucking sophistry about the pain and meaninglessness of existence. Start excercising, start getting some sun. You are quite literally thinking that everyone on planet Earth feels the way you do. It is impossible to be more self-centered than you. So as I said before, kill yourself to ease my suffering.

>>15113585
Read Sun and Steel. You have brought yourself into night.

>>15113602
If living in a third world is so shitty, then why aren't THEY antinatalists? Clearly they're not, they breed like rabbits.

>>15113620
Buddy, you know nothing about my life. Why do people always react this way when discussing anti-natalism? It's clear you're just lashing out without any intellectual argument.

>>15112984
>There is no joy without suffering
This is about as stupid as saying
>You can't know that ice cream tastes good without tasting shit first.

Call it cope all you want, but my interest in theology and philosophy has me genuinely thankful that I have another day. I have another attempt to try to find and know God, to love my family and strangers, and to practice my crafts and create things.

>>15113585
>The fact that their survival instinct kicked in and they were forced to cope by convincing themselves their lives are worth it does not convince me.
You mean that you don’t actually care whether they’re actually suffering or not

>>15113638
>>15113638
Oh, like antinatalists do? I'm asking you why you don't kill yourself or others if life is really that bad. Why not? Because you don't believe what you're saying.
>Buddy, you know nothing about my life
Ditto you. So don't act like my life is so fucking horrible. You are a cancer.

>>15113585
>Have you seen how poor people in third world countries live? I would certainly not consider that kind of existence worth living.

Imagine some drug-addled depression meme kid in the US explaining to poor Africans that they'd be better off extinct

>>15113638
BUT THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU’RE DOING, RETARD. Jesus christ, this is why people are so tired if antinats in /lit/. You guys are so briandead. You are literally saying that other people are suffering even when they tell you they are not and yet here you are going YOU CANT TELL ME ABOUT MY EXPERIENCE. Fine, but NEITHER CAN YOU.

>>15113643
Based and blessèd post. pbuy

>>15113195
>Social analysis has shown even our deepest values to be nothing but products of our time
So?

>>15113679
>why people are so tired if antinats in /lit/.
>YOU CANT TELL ME ABOUT MY EXPERIENCE
okay then practice what you preach and speak for your fucking self

>>15113679
I'm making a generalized observation, which is not the same as predicting the lives of individual 4chan posters, you goddamned imbecile.

>>15113703
read the whole post braindead faggot

>>15113715
>Everyone hates life bro just trust me
Sure pal

>>15113723
No.

>>15113728
Basierend

>>15113725
Having a mediocre existence is not the same as hating life.
Would you be ok with birthing your own children into poverty, and with little to no chance of having a comfortable life?

>>15113708
>I'm making a generalized observation

>>15113715
Okay, then here is my general observation. ANTINATALISTS ARE PROJECTING THEIR PERSONAL SUFFERING UNTO THE WORLD TO COPE WITH THEIR OWN FAILURE AND SADNESS BY PUTTING THE BLAME ON AN EXTERNAL SOURCE INSTEAD OF DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT OR GETTING PROFESSIONAL HELP

>>15113747
>Would you be ok with birthing your own children into poverty, and with little to no chance of having a comfortable life?
Yes.

>>15113758
Ok retard

>>15113758
im not him
and again speak for yourself faggot

>>15113747
You mean like the mass majority of people did for thousands of years? Also
>comfortable life
What does this even mean to you? having an xbox and being able to eat chicken nuggies anytime you want?

>>15113784
>What does this even mean to you? having an xbox and being able to eat chicken nuggies anytime you want?
Yes.

>>15112948
This is why I think veganism is a cult of utmost evil. The net positive of a random human life is debatable and we won't reach a conclusion on the matter. However, the ethical kind of animal breeding and keeping results in a life filled mostly with contentedness and lack of anxious reflection. The average meat eating human eats (and thus enables the life of) a large amount of animals in his lifetime ensuring that the sum of a humans being and the consequences thereof is positive.

Hitler was a vegetarian.

>>15113765
>>15113772
>zero arguments

>>15113772
>gets called out on assuming other people’s subjective experiences and being a hypocrite
>deflects the argument
Antinats are really pathetic and retarded

>>15113760
No one I know agrees with that, everyone in my social circle agrees in ensuring a high level of quality of life, which necessitates certain degree in socioeconomic prosperity, for their children.
I pity your future children.

>>15113800
IM JUST SAYING YOU TO SPEAK FOR YOURSELF SUBHUMAN FUCKING SCCCUUUUM

>>15113800
Your "arguments" are literally angrily writing in all caps lmao
Get lost

>>15113812
>"It is curious that while good people go to great lengths to spare their children from suffering, few of them seem to notice that the one (and only) guaranteed way to prevent all the suffering of their children is not to bring those children into existence in the first place.”
-David Benatar

>>15113812
My future children will exist, they will know joy and love, as well as pain, and you'll die childless. As for your friends not wanting children, it's because they're self-centered people who want to be rich before experiencing the struggle of taking care of a human life. It has more to do with their own cowardice and less to do with wanting to help their non-existent children. But I suppose your cosmopolitan friends are the authority when it comes to everything? Should I have voted for Hillary Clinton too? Faggot.

>>15113456
>>15113511
>browses /lit/
>can't comprehend the shit they're reading

>>15112948
If you're interested in a roundabout refutation of antinatalism (although that is not the aim of the book) then read The Imperative of Responsibility.

I'm not going to give you the quick rundown. It's a 200 page argument that ends in pure beauty. Read it if you want a real challenge to your worldview.

>>15113810
depression is on it's all time high in all over the world
this mental health crisis show that majority of people are suffering

>>15113818
No, my argument is THAT ANTINATALISTS ASSUME THAT OTHERS ARE SUFFERING EVEN WHEN THEY SAY THEY ARE NOT
proof:>>15113585
>The fact that their survival instinct kicked in and they were forced to cope by convincing themselves their lives are worth it does not convince me.
>The fact that their survival instinct kicked in and they were forced to cope by convincing themselves their lives are worth it does not convince me.
>>15113195
No one can overcome this simple reality of life. I don't care what sort of philosophical system you create to cope with it.
And then when other people use the same kind of argument against them calling their position cope or projeciton, you faggots avoid the argument with
>speak for yourself
>I'm making a generalized observation, which is not the same as predicting the lives of individual 4chan posters
you guys have zero fucking coherence or self-awareness

>>15113183
But it's still based on some sort of shitty utilitarian (lmao, pleonasm) framework, right?

>>15113843
Calm down, retard

>>15113834
Are you speaking for yourself? Clearly states that birth satisfied a longing for the parents and that the next generation is bringing itself into existence, not being forced into it.

>>15113831
Ah, I see you're one of these "people"
Move along, then

>>15113851
I will not until you admit your hypocrisy

>>15113843
i was just applying your logic in this reply >>15113708
>>why people are so tired if antinats in /lit/.
>>YOU CANT TELL ME ABOUT MY EXPERIENCE
okay then practice what you preach and speak for your fucking self

>>15113544
>Every single survey on life satisfaction finds people are generally glad to have lived
>Survey
>t. People never lie or delude themselves!
Judge men's act, not just words or statements. Assuming that you are thinking only of modern secularised people in their thirties from rich countries that conclusion already seems farfetched. Look at americans. Every year they buy tons of self-help books, munch on antidepressants like candies and kill themselves in tens of thousands. I'm sure that most people live dreaming of better tomorrow (which will never come) and are glad for getting some imaginary possibilities and chances (that they of course don't have) so I doubt that most is satisfied with their curret lives yet they h𝘢ve to be to even stay alive.
>>15113845
>utilitarian
No, read for example: Cioran, Beckett or Cabrera.

>>15112948
I want to live.

>>15113831
I like the notion that you're not as egoistic as the one who doesn't want children -- because it's quite wrong.

>>15113875
that's okay
anti-natalism is just against procreation

>>15113865
What a fucking stupid contribution. An entire thread about arguments for/against antinatalism and you're going to argue about a throwaway line that in no way concerns the content of the argument. Deflection at its finest.

>>15113888
I want to have children

*ehem*
When the time is right, that is
*wink wink*

>>15113797
No vegan, but have you seen the conditions of modern animal breeding?
Shits a sardine can of chicken, they eat out of each other claocas

>>15113901
and again speak for your fucking self not for the "people of /lit/" you brain dead faggot

>>15113874
>I'm sure that most people live dreaming of better tomorrow (which will never come) and are glad for getting some imaginary possibilities and chances (that they of course don't have) so I doubt that most is satisfied with their curret lives yet they h𝘢ve to be to even stay alive.
OH LET ME CONTINUE TO ASSUME PEOPLE'S EXPERIENCE AND PROJECT MY OWN SADNESS ON THEM WITH ZERO TO BACK MY CLAIM UP. BUT PLEASE DONT ASSUME MY EXPERIENCE BECAUSE THAT'S NOT AN ARGUMENT
>Every year they buy tons of self-help books, munch on antidepressants like candies and kill themselves in tens of thousands.
SOME PEOPLE ARE SAD, SO EVERYONE IS SAD

>>15113931
>

>>15113915
Im a person from /lit/ and im tired of antinatalist. That anon is right. Stfu and contribute to the argument or get out.

>>15113915
>speak for your fucking self
Whoah so this is the power of repeating a phrase over and over in an autistic fit of rage...

Doomers are the dullest of mankind. This is obvious because they are unwilling to experiment. If life isn't worth living, then they truly have nothing left to loose and are in the greatest of all places to experiment. Why not take huge risks or do and become something truly absurd to find out for yourself if life can be worth living. If the outcome brings greater discomfort they can always just kill themselves. But they don't explore, they read books written by depressed intellectuals and become passive.

>>15113951
Based post

>>15113940
>wojak posting
This is the power of antinatalism... I all caps because you faggots HAVE YET TO RESPOND HOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS NOT FUCKING HYPOCRITICAL.
Your entire position is based on assuming others experiences. If we're rolling with that, fine, but dont fucking deflect when others do it to you. otherwise i'll keep REMIND YOU

>>15113946
screaming in all caps isn't autistic fit of rage, eh?

>>15113943
Im a person from /lit/ and im not tired of antinatalism. that anon is wrong. stfu and contribute tho the argument or get out

imagine being over the age of 16 and still blaming your parents.

https://youtu.be/Zj83UT-ErvE?t=29

pull your head out of the world of soulless dopamine surface reality and learn to face the chaos and struggle of life, to forge your own superego god, and to at least create something better for the people you project your nihilism onto. that's the part i hate most about you faggots, you think everyone around you is as weak and soulless as you, and that they would join your death cult 'if only they weren't all dumb robot slave sheeple, just tricking themselves into thinking they're happy'. fuck off, stop trying to drag me down with you and go blow your brains out somewhere else. the very fact you people never do kill yourselves is cast iron proof that your antinatalism is just a giant cope for the fact that you're just weak and have no willpower.

>David Benatar

>>15113971
it's called ATTENTION- GRABBING. And i'll keep doing it until one of you provides a reasonable answer why YOU CAN ASSUME AND GENERALIZE OTHERS EXPERIENCES, but we cant do it to you.
Until now, all you got is >hurr dont say peole from /lit are tired of antinata durr
Like what a fucking waste of bandwidt. Im pretty sure there is a rhetoric fallacy or sophist technique name for that shit. Answer the question

>>15113971
I'm not the all caps guy but I agree that all caps is the sign of Boomerdom encroaching upon one's mental state

>>15114001
i was just applying your logic in this reply >>15113708 (You)
>>why people are so tired if antinats in /lit/.
>>YOU CANT TELL ME ABOUT MY EXPERIENCE
okay then practice what you preach and speak for your fucking self

>>15112948
based and truthpilled

>>15113991
is that armchair faggot is the emperor of America or the father of 10 kids?

>>15113991
Cringe

>>15114041

not yet, but he's got a gf and has created mirthful and fulfilling art and achieved more in his life than any antinatalist ever will

>>15113991
>talking about facing the chaos and struggle of and literally linking a failed e-celeb unmarried armchair faggot you give daddy advice to internet incels for money
the absolute state of "hard men"

>>15114048

durrr bringe

>>15113912
On a serious note, I know what you're talking about and yes it's disgusting morally. I have the privilege of living in the Finnish countryside where regulations around this are strict and I can see from my neighbors farms and my buddy working at the slaughterhouse that the process is completely ethical. So I buy local and feel good about myself. I'm sure if I were poor and lived in a place that had other standards my sense of morals would have been altered to allow myself to look away from it. As it is however I've been brought up to have very strong compassion for animals and I would seriously see it as a loss of good lives lived if we stopped keeping animals in my local conditions.

>>15114024
WHAT A FUCKING ABSOLUTE FAGGOT. NO BRAIN PISS OF SHIT. LET ME FUCKING NOT ANSWER A SINGLE QUESTION OR CONTRIBUTE TO THE CONTENT OF THIS THREAD. LET ME FUCKING JUST FOCUS ON THIS THROWAWAY SENTENCE, WHO'S PRESENCE HAS ZERO EFFECT ON THE ARGUMENT BEING MADE. LET ME FUCKING IGNORE MY OWN HYPOCRISY BY DEFLECTING AND POINTING OUT ONE SINGLE MOMENT OF IRRELEVANT INCONSISTENCY. IT DOENS'T MATTER THAT THIS STATEMENT HAS NO BEARING ON ANYTHING BEING SAID OR ARGUMENTS IN THIS THREAD. LET ME CONTINUE FOCUSING ON THIS ONE LITTLE ABSOLUTE NOTHING BECAUSE I'VE BEEN CALLED OUT ON MY BULLSHIT AND AM UNABLE TO ANSWER FOR IT. SO I WILL CONTINUE TO WASTE EVERYBODY'S TIME BY ARGUING CIRCLES ABOUT NOTHING. ARENT I SO CLEVER. HAHAHA THE TEACHER MISSPELLED A WORD IN THE BOARD HAHAHAHAHA. LOOK AT ME. I HAVE NOTHING TO SAY BUT I WILL CONTINUE TO POST BECAUSE IM TOO AFRAID TO ENGAGE IN AN ACTUAL ARGUMENT. HAHAHAH I IDENTIFIED A MINOR CONTRADICTION THAT IF FIXED LITERALLY CHANGES NOTHING. HAHAHAH IF HE SAID "THIS IS WHY IM TIRE OF ANTINATALISTS" I WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO SAY, BECAUSE HE CALLED OUT MY BULLSHIT AND I DONT HAVE THE INTELLECTUAL CAPACITY TO DO ANSWER TO IT. HAHAHAHA IM SO CLEVER. EVEN THOUGH I KNOW THAT STATEMENT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POINTS IN THAT POST I DECIDED TO FOCUS ON IT, AREN'T I SO GREAT AHAHAHAHA THANK GOD FOR ANONIMITY RIGHT GUYS HAHAHA OTHERWISE EVERYONE WOULD KNOW WHAT A FUCKING LOSER GENETIC DEAD END I AM.

>>15114090
>WHAT A FUCKING ABSOLUTE FAGGOT. NO BRAIN PISS OF SHIT. LET ME FUCKING NOT ANSWER A SINGLE QUESTION OR CONTRIBUTE TO THE CONTENT OF THIS THREAD. LET ME FUCKING JUST FOCUS ON THIS THROWAWAY SENTENCE, WHO'S PRESENCE HAS ZERO EFFECT ON THE ARGUMENT BEING MADE. LET ME FUCKING IGNORE MY OWN HYPOCRISY BY DEFLECTING AND POINTING OUT ONE SINGLE MOMENT OF IRRELEVANT INCONSISTENCY. IT DOENS'T MATTER THAT THIS STATEMENT HAS NO BEARING ON ANYTHING BEING SAID OR ARGUMENTS IN THIS THREAD. LET ME CONTINUE FOCUSING ON THIS ONE LITTLE ABSOLUTE NOTHING BECAUSE I'VE BEEN CALLED OUT ON MY BULLSHIT AND AM UNABLE TO ANSWER FOR IT. SO I WILL CONTINUE TO WASTE EVERYBODY'S TIME BY ARGUING CIRCLES ABOUT NOTHING. ARENT I SO CLEVER. HAHAHA THE TEACHER MISSPELLED A WORD IN THE BOARD HAHAHAHAHA. LOOK AT ME. I HAVE NOTHING TO SAY BUT I WILL CONTINUE TO POST BECAUSE IM TOO AFRAID TO ENGAGE IN AN ACTUAL ARGUMENT. HAHAHAH I IDENTIFIED A MINOR CONTRADICTION THAT IF FIXED LITERALLY CHANGES NOTHING. HAHAHAH IF HE SAID "THIS IS WHY IM TIRE OF ANTINATALISTS" I WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO SAY, BECAUSE HE CALLED OUT MY BULLSHIT AND I DONT HAVE THE INTELLECTUAL CAPACITY TO DO ANSWER TO IT. HAHAHAHA IM SO CLEVER. EVEN THOUGH I KNOW THAT STATEMENT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POINTS IN THAT POST I DECIDED TO FOCUS ON IT, AREN'T I SO GREAT AHAHAHAHA THANK GOD FOR ANONIMITY RIGHT GUYS HAHAHA OTHERWISE EVERYONE WOULD KNOW WHAT A FUCKING LOSER GENETIC DEAD END I AM.

>>15114073

m8 i just used that clip as a tl;dr of my opinion, i'm not promoting him as some philosopher-warrior-king. where's your 20 or so short films and your network television show btw?

>>15114090
Based
>>15114097
Cringe

>>15114090
sorry i didn't read
but i was just applying your logic in this reply >>15113708 (You) (You)
>>why people are so tired if antinats in /lit/.
>>YOU CANT TELL ME ABOUT MY EXPERIENCE
okay then practice what you preach and speak for your fucking self

>>15113309
it was a exception though, arab and ancient greek culture wasnt as decadent and cucked. anglos are full of it

>>15114099
>where's your 20 or so short films and your network television show btw?
WOAH, brother it's too much chaos and struggle for me to handle.

>>15113888
I want to create. If life is an illusion and self delusion, for me this mirror is more real than for you or anyone else, my own delusion, my daydream, whatever; I'm more than content to experience and to cling unto it, to relish it and let it kill me. I want it. Difference in my philosophy is that I crave things that might annihilate me, whereas for you it's merely the default state of existence; annihilation not - - annulment.

>>15113991
here in this vid his other two 35 year old partners are ranting about their parents for 8 minutes. and i agree with them.

https://youtu.be/L0nkmFGfeec

>>15113432
You think it's unethical because nonexistence is preferable. But there are many people who claim that existence is preferable for them, that they are happy to be born, and that they want to bring another life into this world. They have to be wrong, since your worldview is predicated on the belief that nonexistence is preferable to existence. Otherwise, having children is sometimes ethical, sometimes not.

>>15114156

wtf r u even talking about, i literally never said or implied that charls' work output had anything to do with the idea of facing chaos and struggle, that was a separate point retard - YOU were the one saying he's a 'failed e-celeb' when he's already done more for the worth of the people that consume his stuff than you ever will. again, if you're gonna throw stones, show us one single thing you've created.

>>15114239
by bringing kids into this world you make them vulnerable to pain, suffering, disease and death.

>>15112948
>It is curious that while good people go to great lengths to spare their children from suffering
False premise. No good parent does this. Why do antinatalists even see suffering as bad?

>>15114254
By driving you risk getting in an accident. No one cares. If you want to live in some bubble world, that's fine. Most people aren't complete faggots, though.

>>15114256
>No good parent does this
this amount of coping is unreal

>>15114254
you also make them sensible to pleasure, joy, success and love.

>>15114246
>worth
making some pseud shit for internet edgelord worth nothing. also he was mooching off of sam hyde and nick.
>imagine being over the age of 16 and still blaming your parents.
here >>15114187 his grown up partners are blaming their parents on camera

>>15114090
1. The end game of human soul/superego/consciousness/rationality is (existential) nihilism/anti-natalism/death.
2. The end game of human body/id/subconsciousness/feelings is existentialism/natalism/life.
3. Humans existence is controlled by Freud's "ego" – the point between 1. and 2.
4. Ego's job is to not let 1. and 2. destroy each other. That is precisely why anti-natalist (1.) can't end themselves (2.)

>>15114187

i generally agree with them too, but recognizing the raw deal the previous generations have dealt you doesn't mean you just give up on life itself.
not necessarily aiming this at you, but a lot of faggots here need to stop pretending like their teenage angst and lack of willpower is a philosophical position.
i've been there myself and i guarantee you, if you quit your addictions to dopamine/weed/porn/pop culture-politics-media/shit food etc, lift heavy weights, get outside in the sun and trees, get some blood and testosterone flowing through your body, stop treating ideals of beauty or spirituality as cringe and gey subjects to be left to women, learn a skill/create shit, and generally just broaden your philosophical reading, you'll start to realize how much you've let emotions cloud your mind. and you'll finally recognize how much of your worldview you've let be dictated by your mood. or you just haven't turned 18 yet.

>Refute this

He's a kike

>>15114254
Bringing kids into the world is the only way to sustain joy, creation and life.

Antinatalists don't care about the absence of these things because antinatalists are mentally ill.

>>15114336
2/2
Suicide only happens because of malfunctions of "ego".

i've always considered the antinatalist position to be merely a cope because if darwinian life is inherently suffering, then earth is clearly the smallest drop of the smallest bucket of a great raging river-torrent of darwinian life that will exist in the great history of the universe.

if they cared about ending sapient suffering they would advocate the devotion of all earth's resources to create enormous interstellar exterminators so that we could purge the galaxy / supercluster of life, and not care so much about tiny personal suffering that means nothing in the great scheme.

you can tell that they are just hurting and trying to project their state of mind onto others because they keep it at a purely personal scale.

>>15114336

lel wut 'superego' is just a metaphor for god (or vice versa), all this shows is that you worship a god of death.
start worshipping the solar aspects of your superego/god - you can find transcendence even here in this material plane, if you will it.

>>15114373
>you can tell that they are just hurting and trying to project their state of mind onto others because they keep it at a purely personal scale.

The reason they don't follow it to its logical (annihilationist) conclusion is the same reason they're antinatalist in the first place: they are avolitional and avoidant. These people want to curl up in a ball and quietly cease to be. They would never embrace an ethics that compels them to do something.

>>15114336
>>15114362
>ego psychology
>thinking there is such a thing as "malfunctioning", not realizing individual acts of the "ego" are actually predetermined, or better said re-determined
>not seeing how suicide can easily represent perfection union with the mother, as a return to the womb

>>15114334

>making some pseud shit

i was mainly talking pre-world peace, but yes even his latest stuff is worth more than anything you've ever done. if it wasn't you'd be proud to show us something you've done yourself, but you can't because you either haven't or inherently know it's shit.

>for internet edgelord

says the antinatalist

>>15112973
kys and shut up then

>>15114406
Also forgot to mention
>not recognizing antinatalism as the perfect liberation from castration anxiety, doing away the fear of becoming the father and failing

>few days ago there was a thread on /lit/ and the op said that he wants to be a father so desperately. in that thread almost all of anons were saying that they don't want to be fathers.
based 4chan contrarians staying true to their roots
never change anon-kun

blaming the parents is not a philosophy lmao

>>15114440
>4chan is one person

>>15114449
where i said that?

>>15114456
>this thread is populated by the same people who responded to that thread

>>15114440
Yes, anon. There are multiple in this board with varying opinions. You are very observant.

>>15114472
i used the word "contrarians" which is a plural word you blind subhuman

Think about it, you’re one of the lucky few who gets to experience existence, that’s pretty cool

>>15114406
>tfw you're not using metaphysics concepts as just that – concepts – and are further delving into them because you're a believer

stay depressed and get fucked dwellers

>>15114493
Wow, you really showed me. Showed me how much of a retard you are. What do you think you were pointing out? Is it beyond your little weeb brain that there are different posters with different opinions in this board? or is that too much for you to understand?

>>15114481
>There are multiple in this board with varying opinions
it's not about varying opinions it's about contrarianism. which is a good thing.

>>15114497
What? You're the one who brought up psychoanalysis. These are basic Freudian concepts. Do you only know basic ego stuff? Have no notion of womb symbolism or the oedipus complex?

>>15113488
A child's life is not guaranteed to be good? Your future life is not guaranteed to be good either; au contraire, old age and the state of the world brings with it great, almost unbearable burdens. Just as you'd be better off not reproducing, you'd be better off not living (from a utilitarian perspective). Think of it as a delayed abortion, something your parents weren't kind enough to do. Additionally, you will cause other people suffering while you live; the good you will cause is negligible, so you should end yourself for others' sake.

>>15114519
you wouldn't get it.

>>15114497
Here’s the wikipedia scholar, using concepts from a field he knows nothing about

>>15113619
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfgS-HfwVUcj6pcYWvaZPkq5Tyk7qoWXQz8IY9LrNYXshqW-A/viewanalytics

This probably isn't conclusive but it's food for thought. It's the r/antinatalism poll regarding ethnicity and all that

>>15113642
That's a false dichotomy. Suffering and pleasure aren't constrained to "ice cream versus shit." There are many flavors in between. For example, you can't know that ice cream tastes good without having first tasted burnt toast. Not only that, but experiencing suffering makes you appreciate the joy you have more. Also, joy without suffering still leads to suffering (ennui, jadedness, etcetera)

>>15114564
>72% are white
>70% wealthy enough to go to college
>can assume that a portion of the remaining of the unemployed and high schoolers are also privileged, but inconclusive obviously since the data isnt there
Unless you took that "proof" as being absolutists and not just a generalized dig, this only furthers the point. The majority of them were wealthy and first worlders (US/Canada/EU). And the remaining are most likely privilege unless you really think poverty-stricken people living in countries were english is not a first language are responding to a reddit poll. The circumstances of wealthy or privilege people all around the world are not too different from those in the first world, many of them probably went to first world countries for college too. But this is all assumption because those data points aren't there.
They left out data on their income or social class, which is what would make discussing it more interesting and valuable.

>>15114663
>70% wealthy enough to go to college
scratch that

>>15112948
afaik no actual valid and sound argument has been made against antinatalism. Just viewpoints not engaging the stated arguments for antinatalism. Quite unique in the academic world today actually.

>>15114693
Name one antinatalist argument that doesn't assume things about people's subjective experience.

>>15114663
biggest anti-natalism movement is active in india

https://youtu.be/jmYDGlixAag

How do we know that nonexistence isn't worse?

>>15114709
There are 5 people in that vid. What is your source on that "biggest movement" claim? Also, India had the most babies between 2015-2020 so... take that as you will.

>>15114693
This is a good example, once again – you are not engaging any of the antinatalist arguments.

>>15114705
>>15114745
Accidentally quoted myself instead of you

>>15114741
those are just representative. i have there other movements with different in different states. you should dive into comment section to see the support for it.

>Also, India had the most babies between 2015-2020 so... take that as you will.
global birth rates are falling. and it's even worst in the west. so does this mean anti-natalism is winning?

>>15114757
Provide an argument then. All the ones itt assume things about people's experiences that are not provable. Which is an antinatalists argument you think is so irrefutable so that we may engage in a conversation?

>>15114802
If you're looking for rigorous or serious philosophical discussion on a manchurian knitting site you're deluded. Read some actual peer reviewed articles and journals. Otherwise you would only engage straw men and red herrings.

To be clear, I'm not saying the arguments can't be refuted, I'm saying they aren't. And some lonely lowlife keyboard warriors typing away at each other won't change that.

>>15114789
>global birth rates are falling. and it's even worst in the west. so does this mean anti-natalism is winning?
Assuming people are doing it for antinat reasons and not out of disinterest. Also, assuming they dont pick up again the future. Also, you have to account for the fact that rates are not just affected by people choosing not to have children but by choosing to have less children, which is something many would have done in the past if they could've.

>>15114757
do this >>15114802 and I'll play too

>>15114829
state a single argument you fucking troll

>>15112948
https://www.abolitionist.com/anti-natalism.html

>>15114829
>no one has refuted my beliefs
>state them
>lol what, you think im going to tell you what I believe so you can refute it hahah what do you think i am? capable of coherent thought?
The power of antinatalism...

>>15114849
>David Benatar's Better Never To Have Been challenges a deep source of status quo bias. Benatar argues that coming into being is always a harm. Consequently the ideal population size is zero. "Best not to have been born", observed Sophocles. Or in the words of German poet Heinrich Heine, "Sleep is good, death is better; but of course, the best thing would to have never been". David Benatar concurs. Better Never To Have Been advocates the merciful extinction of all sentient life. Benatar is realistic about his prospects of success.

>Benatar's argument rests on a critical asymmetry, outlined in Chapter Two. If someone had never existed, Benatar argues, the absence of any pleasure s/he might have experienced wouldn't be bad - even granted that any pleasure in his or her life would have been good. [This asymmetry underlies the widely acknowledged intuition that no one is morally obliged to have children.] By contrast, Benatar argues, if the suffering undergone in someone's life hadn't existed, then the absence of suffering would be a good thing. From this fundamental asymmetry - i.e. suffering is intrinsically harmful, but there is nothing morally bad about an absence of pleasure - Benatar draws his nihilistic conclusion.

>Benatar's policy prescription is untenable. Radical anti-natalism as a recipe for human extinction will fail because any predisposition to share that bias will be weeded out of the population. Radical anti-natalist ethics is self-defeating: there will always be selection pressure against its practitioners. Complications aside, any predisposition not to have children or to adopt is genetically maladaptive. On a personal level, the decision not to bring more suffering into the world and forgo having children is morally admirable. But voluntary childlessness or adoption is not a global solution to the problem of suffering.

>>15114829
You might as well admitt you don’t have any, weasel

>>15114857
I'm not an antinatalist. Never said I was.

>>15114873
shill confirmed

>>15114831
millennial aren't having kids due to shit economic conditions and it's going to get worse in the future with all that political and climate unrest. i don't give a shit if they're not having children due to antinatlism or not. as long as they're not having children then it's good.

>>15114869
No shit. I don't – but actual (i.e. with real degrees) philosophers do. What truth do you think you can acquire by winning an argument with a literal who on an image board, compared to an actual expert in the field?

>>15114873
What are the antinatalist arguments?

>>15114899
read the book

>>15114893
Do you consider the quote in the OP an antinatalist argument?

>>15114899
They can't be expressed in toto on an image board. Like I said, read some actual peer-reviewed literature on the subject.

Anti-natalists literally on suicide watch

>>15114904
I like literature and philosophy, I have no time for this.
also>>15114883

>>15114906
It's by definition not an argument. It is however a quote from a book which contains actual arguments, which are logically valid. Whether or not they are sound is up for discussion.

>>15114924
>I like literature and philosophy,
no you don't

>>15114928
Have you read the book? Did you read arguments in it?

>>15114938
yes

>>15114889
Good for you, but this doesn't imply antinat is winning, but simply that the conditions now are such that people are having less children. And when I say the future, i mean the general future, not the immediate or a specific one. Birth rates may decline for the next hundred years, but the conditions could be such that in two hundred years people start breeding like crazy. Imagine if we start space exploration, you dont think interstellar colonization would give people incentive to breed again? Or maybe now that we can control pregnancy and conception, we are just reaching a birth rate that is more desirable to society than the uncontrolled natural rate? Maybe birth rate has a natural ground and will remain consistent after it hits it.

>>15114873
Then what are you doing?
>>15114911
Have you read any? Do you have anything to contirbute to this thread apart from falsifiable ramblings about how your sacred texts cant be uttered in such a profane place as 4chan?

>>15114943
Is there more than one argument? How many do you recall?

>>15114943
You realize all you're doing is proving your cowardice in the face of argument? You say you have no time for this, yet here you are replying to our questions. If you had an argument or understood one enough to defend it, you'd make it.

>>15114928
>what I present as an argument is not an argument

>>15113124
rekt

It should be clear now that antinatalist threads are publicity threads.

>>15114945
I recall none in their entirety, as they are quite long. I do however recall their central points and conclusions. benatar's book containing one. There are of course other books than his'.

>>15114944
>then what are you doing?
I don't really understand what you mean desu.
>have you read any?
yes
>do you...4chan?
Never said they can't be uttered here.
>>15114959
Never said I don't have time. I'm saying if you engage my paraphrased argument you're not engaging any of the real, current, antinatalist arguments. But only that of a random 4chan poster. And believing that anything can be achieved by arguing with second-rate arguments is deluded.

>>15114999
filtered

>>15114963
no one presented the quote as an argument

>>15115009
The thread is titled refute this. It implies the following quote is an argument.

This is now, and always has been, a sophist's thread.

>>15114985
schizophrenia is a serious ill. take care anon.

>>15114999
Anon, although I agree with you that the level of arguments here willnever replace actually engaging with the literature, that is still an absurd reason to avoid engaging in argument. After all, books like Socrates says, are static, lifeless and incapable of defending themselves. Conversation polishes the points in a more organic and more useful way. There are many “philosophers with degrees” that arent antinatalist, and im sure you can find peer-reviewed papers refuting points by Benatar and the likes. But if you yourself cant make a point itt, then im going to kindly ask you to fuck off, you retarded faggot.

>>15115025
not only arguments can be refuted, but also statements. Which is what the quote contains.

>...a sophist's thread
My entire point is that all 4chan threads are sophist, as they do not conform to the argument format, which actual philosophical journals do

>>15115054
>philosophical journals
such as?

>>15112948
>people go to great lengths to spare their children from suffering
Cringe and yikes.

Spare us parenting advice from childless cucks, please.

>>15115064
4chan

>>15115065
>Cringe and yikes.
>Spare us parenting advice from childless cucks, please.
yeah good parents throw there children in front of pedophiles to teach their kids that suffering is good, right?

>>15115047
I never said to avoid engaging in argument though. I basically only stated what you yourself stated ("arguments here[...]the literature").
>fuck off
no u

>>15115064
tripping me (a random 4chan poster) up won't refute any actual argument. To answer your question though, I like Cambridge Core Philosophy.

>>15115091
This anon alone proves how intellectually crippled the antinatalists are. They can’t even articulate what they believe.

>>15115102
nice anecdote

>>15115102
like I said, I'm not an antinatalist

>>15115108
Nice absolutely nonargument or point made

>>15115102
he is not even antinatalist lmaooo
but what he is saying is true. he's not misreable fool to take mongolian basket weaving forum seriously like me.

>>15115126
*unlike who take it seriously kek

>>15115119
What about intellectually crippled? I don't want to be rude but with the way you argue, to ask only seems fair.

>>15115137
Could be. I haven't made a single argument itt though. Neither has anyone else itt.

>>15115144
>Neither has anyone else itt.
how so?

>>15115144
sure thing buddy

>>15114256
>Why do antinatalists even see suffering as bad?
In internet discussions there's often this equivocation when it comes to antinatalists, even pessimists in general and suffering, big misunderstanding. It may be confusing at first but simply because of their definition of this term it's bad by default and why becomes unnecessary. In majority of antinatalist writings description of suffering is indistinguishable or very similiar to buddhist dukkh𝘢 which is broader term than pain or nociception. The second word might also look exotic for someone that is not interested in neuroscience but because of christianity and its influence this interchangeability between suffering and nociceptive pain become intuitively common view of eurocentric cultures.
>>15114944
>but simply that the conditions now are such that people are having less children
It's not "conditions". People in rich countries have diffrent priorities than their grandparents. They are more self absorbed, entitled and narcissistic but if that results in them having less children then it means that those traits ain't that bad after all. Of course education and health care systems that guarantee better survival rate for their kids are also a big factor.
>i mean the general future, not the immediate or a specific one
>but the conditions could be such that in two hundred years people start breeding like crazy
>Imagine if we start space exploration, you dont think interstellar colonization would give people incentive to breed again?
Yeah, good luck with that lofty dreams pal.
https://youtu.be/5WPB2u8EzL8

>>15115144
>Neither has anyone else itt
Yes, it is. Some are bad, some are good. But unlike yours, they actually exist

>>15114999
>I recall none in their entirety, as they are quite long
hilarious

>>15114256
>Why do antinatalists even see suffering as bad?
In internet discussions there's often this equivocation when it comes to antinatalists, even pessimists in general and suffering, big misunderstanding. It may be confusing at first but simply because of their definition of this term it's bad by default and "Why?" becomes unnecessary. Whithin majority of antinatalist writings description of suffering is indistinguishable or very similiar to buddhist dukkha which is broader term than pain or nociception. The second word might also look exotic for someone that is not interested in neuroscience but because of christianity and its influence this interchangeability between suffering and nociceptive pain become intuitively common view for people living in eurocentric cultures.
>>15114944
>but simply that the conditions now are such that people are having less children
It's not "conditions". People in rich countries have diffrent priorities than their grandparents. They are more self absorbed, entitled and narcissistic but if that results in them having less children then it means that those traits are not that bad after all. Of course education and health care systems that guarantee better survival rate for their kids are also a big factor.
>i mean the general future, not the immediate or a specific one
>but the conditions could be such that in two hundred years people start breeding like crazy
>Imagine if we start space exploration, you dont think interstellar colonization would give people incentive to breed again?
Yeah, good luck with those lofty dreams pal.
https://youtu.be/5WPB2u8EzL8 [Embed]

>Life is bad to me so that means it must be bad for others

If anti-n*talists have such a problem, they are more than welcome to kill themselves.

>>15112948
This shit is such good bait.
Fuck if you all hate life this mouch just go and kill yourself. You are the priest of death, you dont hate life or think its bad.
You are just jealous of other people and compare yourself to them. Cut the Bullshit and be a man of once. Not only that you cry on this stupid Imageboard about how bad life is, you are not willing to change something about it. Yes Nobody asked you if you wanted to be born. Deal with it. You will die and all the knowledge you have accumulated will vanish. Deal with it. Thats life.
You can be in Vain and cry about all the pain Life is putting on to you. This perspective is inherently narcissistic, because you think the world somehow revolves around you.
Not being isnt that great either ? Or is it, if so go and kill yourself. For real I dont care if anyone reads this and then really ends their life, because they didnt value their life at all. Give your life some worth.
No God, no other man nor woman can bestow you with a purpose of life. Go and create something that you care about. And yes, let it be other humans ! Create them, spread your seed and bring them into life out of nothingness, because life is that what you make out of it. Teach them to life their life to fullest and gaze upon your reflection.

Just stop talking about how bad life is and shit. Thanks.

>>15112993
>Life is suffering besides occasional interruptions of joy

>>15115625
Thro’ the ghoul-guarded gateways of slumber,
Past the wan-moon’d abysses of night,
I have liv’d o’er my lives without number,
I have sounded all things with my sight;
And I struggle and shriek ere the daybreak, being driven to madness with fright.

I have whirl’d with the earth at the dawning,
When the sky was a vaporous flame;
I have seen the dark universe yawning,
Where the black planets roll without aim;
Where they roll in their horror unheeded, without knowledge or lustre or name.

I had drifted o’er seas without ending,
Under sinister grey-clouded skies
That the many-fork’d lightning is rending,
That resound with hysterical cries;
With the moans of invisible daemons that out of the green waters rise.

I have plung’d like a deer thro’ the arches
Of the hoary primordial grove,
Where the oaks feel the presence that marches
And stalks on where no spirit dares rove;
And I flee from a thing that surrounds me, and leers thro’ dead branches above.

I have stumbled by cave-ridden mountains
That rise barren and bleak from the plain,
I have drunk of the fog-foetid fountains
That ooze down to the marsh and the main;
And in hot cursed tarns I have seen things I care not to gaze on again.

I have scann’d the vast ivy-clad palace,
I have trod its untenanted hall,
Where the moon writhing up from the valleys
Shews the tapestried things on the wall;
Strange figures discordantly woven, which I cannot endure to recall.

I have peer’d from the casement in wonder
At the mouldering meadows around,
At the many-roof’d village laid under
The curse of a grave-girdled ground;
And from rows of white urn-carven marble I listen intently for sound.

I have haunted the tombs of the ages,
I have flown on the pinions of fear
Where the smoke-belching Erebus rages,
Where the jokulls loom snow-clad and drear:
And in realms where the sun of the desert consumes what it never can cheer.

I was old when the Pharaohs first mounted
The jewel-deck’d throne by the Nile;
I was old in those epochs uncounted
When I, and I only, was vile;
And Man, yet untainted and happy, dwelt in bliss on the far Arctic isle.

Oh, great was the sin of my spirit,
And great is the reach of its doom;
Not the pity of Heaven can cheer it,
Nor can respite be found in the tomb:
Down the infinite aeons come beating the wings of unmerciful gloom.

Thro’ the ghoul-guarded gateways of slumber,
Past the wan-moon’d abysses of night,
I have liv’d o’er my lives without number,
I have sounded all things with my sight;
And I struggle and shriek ere the daybreak, being driven to madness with fright.

>>15112948
Undeniably true, but also irrrelevant.

>>15112982
shit like this actually gets published? holy shit
i just realized the only thing you need to get published is to touch a chord with the sad excuses of human beings that are publishers

>>15116678
what's wrong with that?

>>15116714
it's completely trite and cliche

>>15116817
how so?

>>15116822
shut teh fuck up bitch

>>15116864
why?

>>15112948
boy, how I loathe these smarmy intellectuals that just defend the status quo.

>>15116885
status quo wants you to bring more slaves into this world to keep running the system

Anti-natalists should just kill themselves if life sucks so bad, why should I or anyone else care if some roastie shits out a bunch of kids or that other people suffer? Anti-natalists are hypersensitive crybabies

>>15113124
this

Kill antinatalists. If you're an antinatalist, kill yourself. Post body or die you literal subhuman. Enemy of the human race. Disgusting piece of shit.

>>15117003
haven't found any pussy after all of these years of gymceling?

>>15113585
Thise poor people in shit conditions aren’t hopped on psychiatric drugs, killing themselves at record levels and aren’t suffering from depression like hellscape “advanced countries”. Life is inherently shit, modernity is

>>15114534
>When we read, another person thinks for us: we merely repeat his mental process. In learning to write, the pupil goes over with his pen what the teacher has outlined in pencil: so in reading; the greater part of the work of thought is already done for us. This is why it relieves us to take up a book after being occupied with our own thoughts. And in reading, the mind is, in fact, only the playground of another’s thoughts. So it comes about that if anyone spends almost the whole day in reading, and by way of relaxation devotes the intervals to some thoughtless pastime, he gradually loses the capacity for thinking; just as the man who always rides, at last forgets how to walk. This is the case with many learned persons: they have read themselves stupid.

>>15117058
>Modernity
No, you can't just go on with that illusion. Life and in particular consciousness, has been a mistake since consciousness began to evolve in amphibians as attention.

>>15117082
It sounds to me like you’re the mistake here and majorly projecting

>>15112948
removing stuart mill from your brain sponge

>>15116919
No status quo wants to convince effete middle class white people who read shit like this to stop reproducing so the ruling class can continue building a loyal horde of undesirables.

>>15112948
>the one (and only) guaranteed way to prevent all the suffering of their children is not to bring those children into existence in the first place.
Sneaky little argument. It smuggles the subject (your hypothetical child) into a hypothetical state that precludes the existence of the child (non-existence itself), yet still attempts to predicate the child with a state being better than the alternative. Once noticed the argument falls flat.

>>15117336
>Sneaky little argument: child does not exist and that's for its own good
>OP says non-existence is better
>Argument falls flat

>>15112948
Better question. How to antinatalists refute the fact that I personal gain slightly more pleasure from someones suffering then they gain suffering and therefore everyone have a moral duty to live and make more lives?

>>15112948
Ultimately depends on you and whether you feel that your children will be alright in this world. If you have doubts you shouldn't have children so in that sense j agree with David. Whether philosophically is right that the world is net suffering he may be right but maybe that's okay too?

>>15117065
>brings psychoanalysis in the discussion
>is met by someone who actually knows about the field beyond wikipedia basics
>deflects with off-topic quote because he's been caught in his bullshit

>>15117609
How can something that does't exist have a state of being comparable (better or worse) than another being. The child isn't better of non existent because the child isn't at all.
>non-existence is better
For what? What doesn't exist cant logically be better or worse of, because it has no state of being at all.
Also, like always with antinatalist, if nonexistence per se was objectively better, you have no argument against suicide. You're obviously talking about a retroactive nonexistence (If I wouldn't have been) which precludes and necessitates your existence. As for that which hasn't come into existence, this retroactive nonexistence cant be used to measure or compare states of beings (better/worse) because it just doesn't have a being to compare with.

>>15112948
Why didn't this nigger neck himself instead of writing this trash

Weak minded quote. Prepare for and endure suffering, enjoy the good times. Many people have learned to even appreciate suffering in a non-sado/masochist type way.

Raising your kids in a way that shields them from any suffering at all makes them suffer more later on. It’s the reason for the political environment we’re in today.

>>15117609
Reading comprehensionlet.

>>15113951
based

Suffering prevents children from experiencing joy. Parents encourage joy and shield them from suffering. Birth allows new life to experience joy.
He sounds like a coping incel.

>>15112973
street sweepers in india seem happy enough

>>15117853
Sheltering kids is not quite the same as protecting them from suffering.
Some people would consider not getting a 1st place ribbon to be suffering, but most dont.

>>15113951
based

>>15113841
For most, mental illnesses are temporary or negligible with time. Besides, except for the most debilitating mental illnesses (catatonic and paranoid schizophrenia, Major depression and some others) people are able to enjoy life despite the hindrances of their illness. Nearly all with ADHD or general anxiety disorder, suffer with their illnesses but continue to live life to their fullness. And all this supposes there is a natural increase in the prevalence of mental illness, when there is significant evidence that much of this comes from broadly expansing diagnosis criteria of autism, ADD, and ADHD. Just cause you give a kid adderall doesn’t mean he’s suffering for life and would rather be non-existent

>>15114440
There’s a difference between thinking about the personal choice of being a father and the choice of being a whiny retard who hates anyone being a father or a mother

>>15112948
>ughhh life hard fuck my parents for making me

>>15112994
Antinatalists don't care about the joy they destroy

>>15112973

I DONT CARE. I don't! Life is good :)

>>15118653
What is the metric for suffering? I wouldn’t say it begins and ends at satisfying necessities only.

>>15117038
Nigger I fuck bitches constantly. I'm swimming in pussy. You're also a fag.

>>15120347
Stop lying on 4chan you racist fucking clown

>>15112973
They should pull themselves up by their bootstraps like me

>>15120347
Mom doesn't count lol

>>15117058
Bro, this is the absolute best time in the history of humanity to exist, modernity has brought things like medicine and 4channel

>>15120407
you talk like it's a good thing

>>15113951
because risk implies possible increase of terrible suffering dumbass

Reminder to myself to never enter these threads again. What a shit show.

Fuck I hated writing my essay on Benatar, what a fucking faggot