/lit/ - Literature

>>15072877
>Jews believe there will be two Messiah's, or - at least - two states of the one Messiah: the Messiah who suffers and the Messiah who triumph
no they don’t you dumb goy

>>15072984
>Jewish tradition of the late, or early post-Second Temple Period alludes to two redeemers, one suffering and the second fulfilling the traditional messianic role, namely Mashiach ben Yosef, and Mashiach ben David.

>>15073011
You realize that that's archaic right?

>>15073033
Yes, that's why I qualified it with "either two Messiahs or one Messiah moving through two states." Regardless of what stance you take, the Tanakh makes it clear that the Messiah will go through a period of suffering prior to the triumph (see Isaiah 53).

>>15073069
Those Isaiah prophecies of the man who suffers, as far as I know, were not considered to be a reference to the Messiah by Jews, but rather as images of Israel and its suffering. I don't know if there's any Jewish commentary that sees it as messianic.

anon, I...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

>>15073310
Anon, you have exhibited a failure to understand precise language here. Please read carefully. I have already covered the Jews for Jesus. These people are essentially Jewish Christians who believe that Christ is the Messiah as a matter of fact. What I am asking is, in light of our age's more ecumenical bent, why has their never been a wholly Jewish intellectual movement that sought to marry Jesus to this idea of the possibility that Jesus is the Messiah who suffers, whilst they themselves still remain wholly Jewish. Think of it as theological speculation as opposed to outright belief which divorces the individual from their conventional Jewish identity. Messianic Jews, as I say, do not speculate. They regard Jesus' role as the Messiah to be in no doubt.

It just seems odd to me that Jesus' role as Mashiach ben Yosef isn't even up for speculation in the Jewish tradition.

Relativist cringe thread.
Christ is both the Messiah and fully Divine.

The hexagram is a recent development

>>15074151
>Guenon fag
I really, sincerely hope the mods ban you soon - for the sake of your own health, if nothing else. You are a genuine cancer on this site. You have made it impossible to discuss anything relating to theology or phenomenology. You are a schizophrenic and it shows; please seek help. Know that you're posting has only served to make me think of Guenon poorly by proxy. You have accomplished the precise opposite of what you set out to do here. Congratulations.

>>15072877
>and the Messiah who triumphs

>>15074191
The Nazis lost and left no remarkable successors lol. Their impact cannot even be felt in Berlin today, let alone the world (and they only lost 75 years ago!)

>>15074176
Refusal to accept this fact is what prevents OP from answering his own question.

>The Messiah who suffers
Obviously Jesus
>The Messiah who triumphs
Christianity became the largest religion of the world. Plus Jesus literally triumphed over death.

>>15074187
>>Guenon
He was relativist cringe as well, albeit more subtle and understated than this thread. Couldn't care less about him.

OP. I find this strange too. You would have to find at least some rabbis who could at least take the notion of Jesus being the Messiah seriously, but instead there is none that I know of that aren’t just outright Christian. They all have a type of cognitive dissonance, trying to block it away. Anyway, after we saw all those fake messiahs that have come and gone, including that weird Spanish Jewish guy who converted to Islam, and some still believe them to be the Messiah, I have no idea why some don’t even speculate the possibility of Jesus being the prophesied Messiah, which he is.

>>15074209
There is nothing relativist about the potential for a positive Jewish position on the possibility of Christ's identity as the first Messiah who suffers. Speculation is not the same thing as a support of relativity, you sperg.

>>15074187
>I really, sincerely hope the mods ban you soon
There is no viable way to enforce a ban here.
>You have accomplished the precise opposite of what you set out to do here
How does one fail to shitpost?

>>15074235
>How does one fail to shitpost?
He's not a shitposter. Too single-minded and committed (we're talking years). He's a schizoposter.

>>15074203
Ty

>>15074228
Modern Judaism is reactionary to the teachings of Jesus. How would a rabbi that truly found Jesus not reject Talmudism entirely and walk away from the synagogue? Would one expect a Satanist that found Jesus to stay in the Satanic Church and work towards developing a hybrid church wherein they accepted Jesus as the savior? I think not.

>>15074232
>positive Jewish position on the possibility of Christ's identity
For what purpose? Judaism has a false view of Christ, even if they accepted what you're describing it would still be false. This is just mindless relativism trying to "join" religions based on falsehoods. They don't see him as the first (and only) Messiah because it would cost them dearly to recognize their mistake this late into the game as they have sold their souls to unclean kabbalistic forces. Just convert to Christianity if you recognized the truth, don't try to join or create various confused cults like "Messianic judaism". Just look at their icon lol, it's clearly made by a kid in Photoshop and does not resemble anything remotely genuine. It's about as truly Judaic as these Asian guys larping as first-temple Jews.

>>15074274
>How would a rabbi that truly found Jesus
That's not what's being posited. The question is why isn't the question Jesus' identity as the Messiah who suffers even speculated upon, not why isn't it accepted as truth. Again, why do people on this site have such a hard time reading? Judaism has a strong discursive, semi-speculative tradition in part, so it seems strange that there has never been speculation on this front even from some fringe intellectual sect of one sort or another.

>>15074276
>This is just mindless relativism
You are using that word wrong. See >>15074232 again.
>you are trying to join
baseless, overly emotive assumption

>>15074276
>They don't see him as the first (and only)
This isn't what I asked at all... see >>15074301

>>15074301
Because they are under demonic influence and will not even honestly consider the truth. It's as simple as that. Everyone who realizes the truth convertes and has no reason to engage in talmudic discourse as they're not part of the club anymore.

>>15074336
There are plenty of people who are agnostic on the question of Jesus specifically.

>>15074349
I doubt any influential talmudic "rabbi" would take reform or conservative liberal "rabbis" seriously. Hating Christ is basically a prerequisite for being a proper "orthodox" "rabbi".

>>15074403
These sweeping assertions of yours have nothing to do with the question that was asked. At any rate, you seem to be implying that reform and conservative rabbis would be more open to speculation on the possibility of Jesus as Mashiach ben Yosef, given that the more liberal elements are always going to be more inclined to think inventively. If so, the question remains, why has there been no intellectual movement within Judaism (of any stripe) that posits this possibility?

>>15074301
>Again, why do people on this site have such a hard time reading?
First off - calm your tits.
>The question is "why isn't the question Jesus' identity as the Messiah who suffers even speculated upon?"
Prove that there has been no speculation. I posit that the likelihood of this having not been done is near zero (but I am not going to insult you for not having made the same assumptions as I have). In order for anything to come from it, the rabbi needs a "come to Jesus" moment - and at this moment he is likely to abandon the synagogue.

>>15074433
>you seem to be implying that reform and conservative rabbis would be more open to speculation
How do you imagine this speculation would manifest?

>>15074564
>Prove that there has been no speculation.
The question obviously begs "why has there been no intellectual movement that expresses this speculation within Judaism." Don't be a literal Larry. It goes without saying that many Jews must think on the question of Jesus from time to time.
>he needs a come to Jesus moment
Not really. People are perfectly capable of theologically speculating on the possibility without actually having a Damascus moment. Given the pre-existence of this idea of the two Messiahs, one who suffers and one who triumphs, in second temple Judaism, it seems like a strange sort of absence.

Jews are still butthurt about how Christ evaded all of their silly attempts at cornering him with the Talmud. He beat them at their own game, refuted all of their trickery with his superior knowledge of the Law, both oral and written.

>>15074591
As an intellectual movement of some kind. Like most of the world's major religions, Judaism has had plenty of them.

>>15074246
wait are you telling me that all the Guenon posters are the same person? i need to be convinced of this

>>15074619
>People are perfectly capable of theologically speculating
Yeah, ordinary people whose entire subsistence isn't dependent on despising Christ. Talmudic Jews? Not so much....

You can't be free to speculate when you know that the "wise rabbi" can just use a kabbala-magic spell to remove your soul from the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsa_diNura

>>15074627
>As an intellectual movement of some kind.
Why would they not be so disgusted by modern Judaism that they would not walk away from it. You cannot make a subtle break in this instance. A subtle break on your part would entail a violent reaction by the main body of the faithful. They would literally crucify you.

>>15074710
>You cannot make a subtle break in this instance.
Would mere agnosticism around the potential Messianic nature of Jesus as the one who suffers really constitute a soft break?
>>15074653
This sounds like a form of excommunication. Most religions have some version of this.

>>15074653
As a sidenote: Rabin's assassin's name "Yigal Amir" can be read as "He has redeemed us".

>>15074739
>Would mere agnosticism around the potential Messianic nature of Jesus as the one who suffers really constitute a soft break?
However you want to call it, all of the seething hatred of Talmudism would be slathered upon you. The only reasonable response would be to leave the synagogue.

>>15074739
>This sounds like a form of excommunication.
Yeah, you get severed from communing with this plane of existence via demonic forces. Only evil groups have this kind of a method of "excommunicating" you.

>>15074653
Why do they dress like cringe europeans? Why not dress like actual based temple priests if they want to larp as them?

>>15074834
The clothes are the least of their problems.

>>15074834
what did you expect from literal stingy kikes? the cloth and the gemstones cost too much shekels.
also it makes them look too much like arabs who got dibs on middle-eastern clothing.

>>15074202
All modern society is based on Hitler

>>15075404
That would unironically be quite based