/lit/ - Literature

>>15050371
>studiously ignores the concerted effort of the UK Zionist lobby to smear him as an anti-semite

>>15050371
zizek is a hack

the main political divide is of age, both in the uk and us. any other reasoning is needless over explanation. had under 45s only been able to vote, labour would have got a majority. if 65+ year olds had only been able to vote, labour wouldve got like 20 seats total. is the same with sanders v biden in the us.

>>15050383
Doesn't matter, it's not like pro-Israel boomers vote labour anyway.

>>15050400
it's one of the main reasons he lost

https://www.unz.com/jcook/even-with-corbyn-gone-antisemitism-threats-will-keep-destroying-the-uk-labour-party/

>>15050426
God, this makes my fucking blood boil, I dont even support labour. fucking kikes

>>15050439
If Gandhi was around today, even he would be labelled an anti-semite.

>>15050426
dont know that your average white van man that voted for boris cares about the jews tb h

>>15050426
Bullshit

He lost cause he was weak and people wanted Brexit

t. A Jew who voted BNP

>>15050494
>BNP

lmao. enjoy your dead party

>>15050494
do you think he was anti-semitic? you know this label is starting to get old, you don't use the same move this many times.

>>15050511
Honestly I’d have respected him more if he actually was - he was just pro Palestine so all the pakis loved him and my family hated him

>>15050400
loads of people who aren't jewish or give a shit about israel bought into the belief that he was an evil anti-semite, it definitely played a part to some extent

Get your hot takes here, get your hot takes here and so on!

>>15050426
>it's one of the main reasons he lost
It 100% isn't. American style "Thou must support Israel" nonsense doesn't fly in Britain, despite recent attempts in that direction. It was, if anything, more problematic that he "supported" the IRA according to certain papers, and even that wasn't that problematic. Hell, the other thing a lot of ""salt of the earth"" type Tory supporters like is a bit of violence for your cause, shows backbone.

>>15050555
Where are you from?

>>15050371
>b-but what about the third world

>>15050568
it dissuaded enough of the liberal centrist voters that labour had to court, that was enough in a lot of southern seats. brexit did the rest in the north.

>>15050565
It's an intelligent. lear take. A cold take if you will.

>>15050371
>open video
>click play
>*SNIFFFFFFFF*
>close video

Can anyone summarise what he said?

>>15050948
That Corbyn failed because even though he campaigned for Remain it was half-hearted and contradicting what everyone could tell he really wanted, which is to leave the EU. Basically he half-assed it.

>>15050383
Trump didn't rely on the MSM sucking his dick back in 2015 and he did just fine. If that's all it took to take down Corbyn it's clearly more than just the media's fault.

>>15050976
no shit, pushing for a second referendum killed us tb h

>>15050976
Sounds about right. I'm a britbong and literally everyone I spoke to about him agreed that his position of neutrality was effective for the previous general election (when he was able to eat away at the tory's majority), but when it came to doing the same thing against boris and cummings, he really didn't stand a chance. Boris didn't even need to debate him and he still cleared the fuck up. People just wanted brexit over and done with.

>>15050426
No dumbass they lost in former labour strongholds that voted for brexit. Multiple surveys conducted about his leadership that people simply didn’t trust him to have the competence to lead the country let alone is own party. The only reason he won the leadership in the first place is that the party membership has been hijacked by a very aggressive far leftist group which far from represents the wider population. That’s why he lost, not because of muh Jews

>>15050633
The man couldn’t be relied upon to organise a village fete without being liable to give the proceeds to Maduro. He lost because people didn’t trust him to lead a country having seen how poor of a job he was doing managing his own party and how laughably out of which he, his cabinet, and Momentum are with the wider British public

>can his theories be applied
no

>>15051138
>2017 never happened

>>15051109
>The only reason he won the leadership in the first place is that the party membership has been hijacked by a very aggressive far leftist group which far from represents the wider population.

ah yes the same aggressive far leftist group that just voted for keir starmer. idiot

Corbyn failed because he didn't go far enough with the anti-ZOG sentiment and didn't go full EUROPA IMPERIUM.

>>15050383
>smear him as an anti-semite
That'd be a reason to vote for him desu.

>>15051462
>Momentum loses momentum after showing that they couldn’t beat the weakest Tory leadership in ages and after everyone had gotten sick of Corbyn
Who’d a thunk
>>15051439
>2019 didn’t happen

>>15051462
>he’s unaware of the 2014 labour election rule changes that allowed people to sign up and vote for £3 which around 200k people took advantage of

>>15051541
maybe they werent that aggressive after all and were just reacting to the complete failure of 30 years of neoliberalism by choosing the only person that was willing to critique it

Corbyn failed because even years before the EU referendum was introcued the #1 issue to the British public was immigration. Every government in the last few decades has completely ignored the issue and has only increased immigration despite the wishes of their own populace, even when promising to do so otherwise.

Whatever abstractions you make on this issue are false. Immigration was always the issue from day one.

>>15051567
>maybe they werent that aggressive after all
Kek it’s like you don’t even follow British politics at all, did you just start following it last year or something?
>choosing the only person that was willing to critique it
Plenty of critics of Blairism in the Labour Party it’s just that the election got hijacked by people (literally anyone could sign up for £3 and vote) who decided to pick the worst option because it fit with their pretty fringe political ideals. The fact that labour didn’t absolutely dominate 2017 is the biggest sign of how much of a failure corbyn and his ilk were. Facing off against the weakest Tory candidate in years (hell one of the weakest candidates in general since Foot) who was deeply unpopular at the time during a key turning point in British politics and history and still only managing to close the lead. And not even due to corbyn himself so much as it was a dislike of May (Who basically didn’t even campaign) by both remainers and brexiters

>>15051580
Why is labour so afraid to stand up for the British people?

>>15051608
may wasn't unpopular at the time, she had a 40+ approval rating. Furthermore, she improved on camerons 2015 result (37% to 42% in 2017) by subsuming the UKIP vote entirely. she was an entirely credible figure prior to the 2017 election, and her result proves it. She only became unpopular in the aftermath, when she bungled brexit. Prior to that everyone was calling her thatcher 2.0.

Also all of those people who can pay 3 pounds to vote in 2015, are still in the party and chose to vote for sensible centrist keir starmer. not exactly the rabid far left theyve been made out to be by centrist commentators

>>15051530
Yeah, I honestly think the real effect this has had is normalising anti-semitism, unlike what the right-wing zionist prats imagine, that it grants extreme exceptionalism to Jewish right wing nuttery because oh no you might get called anti-semitic!

I think most people know that the Tories have some severe issues with dodgy views that are anti-semitic or anti-semitic adjacent. We all know what those ra ra chinless wonder fucks are like ffs. So painting "I love manhole covers and allotments" man as a fascist Nazi was never going to wash for most.

>>15051109
I don't think Brexit was all that decisive. I think again the political class overestimated the public's taste for it being the only fucking politics. From what I could gather it was because he was viewed as "weak" or otherwise scatterbrained and not "R" whatever (oh r Boris, the luv), and for anyone that thought harder than that (who wasn't blue to the core) it was tall poppy bullshit. Mr Petit Bougie plumber man can't possibly allow the minimum wage to go up or for education to be more accessible, it might erode his very minor advantage in the system. This is why I think they've recently made a massive misstep with Rishi's aid packages.

>>15050534
Isn't being pro Palestine (or even "two state solution") called antisemitism typically?

>>15050371
> uh uh uh sniff uh yew know uh

stopped listening right there

>>15051617
Please don't mistake that comic for something insightful dear friend. You could do better.

>>15051669
it is

>>15051669
Depends who you're talking to, but the most extreme Israelis will say that Palestine basically doesn't have a right to exist. Nor does most of Egypt or the Lebanon and I think Jordan iirc.

>>15051677
I'm just wondering why labour is just as anti-anglo as the tories. You'd think they'd give a shit about the future of Britons, but no, they're the same garbage, just slap more welfare onto neoliberalism and it will somehow get better.
>>15051669
Not sucking kike dick 24/7 is antisemitism. Fucking BDS is called antisemitc. Pointing out Israeli human right violations is antisemtic.

>>15050383
>why yes, I also do think an "anti-Semite" is one of the worst things people can be, and am blind to the left's role in accepting this as obvious

>>15051677
t. No rebuttal

>>15050371
Idk
Everything feels like some form of liberal entropy now.

No positive change is possible. People die willingls so line can go up.

If sanders was even more friendly media CNN would say there´s no difference so why not vote sanders

if he´s more radical he´s an unellectable stalinist.
you cant pull change anymore.

I know it´s midwit talk but the concept manufactured consent is just right on so many levels.

>>15050511
>you don't use the same move this many times.
Idk man, you underestimate how retarded and cattle-like goyim are
t. Goy

>>15051745
>I know it´s midwit talk but the concept manufactured consent is just right on so many levels.
It's almost like voting will never change anything and that a violent revolution is necessary or something.

>>15051715
>You'd think they'd give a shit about the future of Britons, but no, they're the same garbage, just slap more welfare onto neoliberalism and it will somehow get better.
I think the biggest change here was allowing the steel mill to close down a couple of years ago. I say allow, on the part of the Tory-Irish Tory coalition actively make moves to screw the British steel industry while there was no real moves made to stop them. That was shitty shitty neoliberal ideas in action. Corbyn is the most anti-neolib politician and potential PM that has existed in a long time, and he spent so long having to fight idiot new Labour twats.

I think the answer is greed. The industries that the big boys like China want closing down, you know, money is thrown under the table and the politician does alright and who cares about the workers or that the threat was fucking artificial and temporary and hey lets blame Europe or hell it was impossible because China has such a big schlong now or something. The New Labour faction want that kind of politics, mutual masturbation with big multinational businesses, and the threat to them of anti-neolib tendencies is like "well if this comes in, why even do politics?" No concern for anyone or anything else.

The other thing is that neoliberalism is (almost) a very anglo way of doing things. There's a whole thing of economic thought going back to Ricardo and the Manchester School to that effect. A lot of British economic thinkers don't question if this is maybe a bit of spin from that particular ilk of economists selling their ideas (look at Britain doing so well in the 19th C, well it's because they thought like I do about monetary policy and trade etc etc).

>>15051741
There's nothing preventing immigration, even that from refugees, and having a high(er) minimum wage. Higher minimum wage mostly affects rich fucks.

>>15051649
There was a labour party before corbyn you know. In the absence of corbyn or any viable such successor and also how obviously his brand of politics has fallen out of favour, I think it is far more likely that the people who joined in 2015 solely to elect him did not vote in this election than it is that they voted for Keir Starmer

>>15051649
Just look at the sheer difference in votes, you’re trying to tell me 2015 wasn’t essentially hijacked?

"I spoke with Paul Mason"

>I do not want to be English – and any attempt to create an English identity will fail.

>I am the grandson of a Lithuanian Jew on one side, and some miners and weavers whose roots go back for centuries in the same square kilometre off the East Lancs Road. Neither side of this genealogy makes me feel particularly enamoured with the concept of England.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/10/snp-english-national-identity-class-cultural-divide

Why the FUCK would anyone who isn't a dyed in the wool socialist ever vote for these people?

Corbyn wanted to hand the Falkland Islands to Argentina. He was best friends with the IRA when they were blowing people up, and took particular pride in being considered a comrade of theirs. He shilled for open borders and mass immigration at every opportunity. He salivated over Venezuela before it all went to shit. He said the killing of Bin Laden was a tragedy ffs.

Why are you Leftists so retarded? Sure, big business will always come out against you, but you deliberately make it more difficult for yourselves by electing people who loathe the nation they are trying to control.

You seem entirely incapable of wedding socialist economics with any kind of patriotism.

You are doomed to never hold power.

>>15051990
In 2015, corbyn got 60% of a possible 420,000 ish votes. In 2020, starmer got 56% from 490,000 approx. It is impossible that there wasn't crossover in both vote shares. crawl back into your hole mouthbreather.

>>15051649
>>15052026

>>15050371
>OMG LE SNIFFLY MAN SAID A THING

>>15052033
>crawl back into your hole mouthbreather.
>try to have reasonable political discussion
>ad hominem
So really all that shows is that the same people who voted for corbyn had no fucking clue what they were doing and the fact they switched sides en masse to that extent shows how dead Corbyn’s politics really is. Also nobody knows keir starmer actually stands for, he’s gonna be yet another wet towel middle of the road labour politician. I’m sure that’ll spell wonders for labours future prospects, and really don’t understand why you’re so defensive about people who voted for corbyn in 2015. You weren’t one of them were you? For your sake I hope not kek

>>15052065
>a-a-ad hominem

typical lib. try focusing less on tone and you might actually win in 2024

>>15052026
>>15052034
>>15052033
>121k votes for corbyn
>117k votes for long-bailey, the continuity candidate
HMMMMM that sure is a seismic shift

>>15052083
>implying they're going to wait until 2024 for the next election

>>15052083
>implying conservatives won’t win by a landslide in 2024
>lib
Do you even know what that means anon? Or is that just another political buzzword you like to throw around like every fag on this board

>>15050371
Why is there always so much shuffling and background noise in every Zizek encounter?

>Slavoj Zizek on the failure of Corbyn in the UK.
Basically correct.

>Can his theories be applied to Sanders in the US as well?
I think if Bernie were the nominee but managed to lose the general election, it would be because, like Corbyn, he got cucked by IdPol neolib/radlib elites in the media. That's all hypothetical, of course. Bernie may well have resisted those forces and won. In any case, he lost the primary due to a factor that is not present in the UK: the African-American peasantry in the south (S.C.), which tends to vote in unison in accord with the wishes of corrupt black establishment leaders.

>>15052136
https://youtu.be/Io4fxdBEApc

>>15052136
>corbyn only lost because of muh ebil media
>sanders only lost the primaries of muh niggers

>>15052175
You disagree?

>>15052175
yep thats correct

>>15052180
>>15052199
Same fag
>>15052180
Bernie ehh I guess it’s arguable. People who think corbyn won because of the media not because of how obviously incompetent he was as a leader and how and unpopular his brand of politics really is are coping brainlets

>>15052226
Lost*

>>15052226
>Same fag
Nope.

>unpopular his brand of politics really is
Corbyn's positions on the issues are very popular.

>>15052247
Yes it’s truly a miracle he lost the election, must be rigged

>>15052226
the media made him unpopular. from 2015-2017 they mostly left it to the labour party to remove or weaken him, after the scare of the 2017 election onwards they relentlessly went after his character, which shaped the opinions of most brainlets in britain. its no coincidence that 2018-2019 saw a huge jump in antisemitism articles in the press, for example.

>>15052247

1) in 2016, everyone hated Hillary Clinton, 2) the field was much more crowded in 2020, 3) Democratic base voters, including Blacks, aren't particularly left-wing, even when on paper they support Bernie's positions. They go with whoever MSNBC tells them is the "safe" candidate.

2016 was lightning in a bottle. I hate to sound accelerationist, but I think America needs a decade or more of its terminal decline in status to "Brazil with nukes" before a new political generation emerges that has no illusions in "city on a hill" American exceptionalist bullshit and sees the naked reality of class exploitation.

>>15052278
Yes purely the media

>>15052294
the problem seems to be with southern blacks particularly though

>>15052300
>>15052289
>>15052274
>people generate their opinions out of the blue with no prior reference

truly idiotic. no shit they hated him by 2020, after he had lost the GE no less

>>15052274
>>15052289
Entirely the result of a nonstop media smear campaign -- from the tabloid press to the BBC to the Guardian.

>>15052324
>no shit they hated him by 2020, after he had lost the GE no less
And this somehow goes against everything I’ve been saying about his utter incompetence and unpopularity? Kek what are you even trying to argue against
>>15052332
Whatever floats your boat anon, sorry you’ll be stuck with a conservative government until 2029 because of the efforts of your uni student activist-level leader

>>15052309
The problem in general is with old people in the deep south. It's just that old southerners who are white don't vote for Democrats, so they aren't a factor in the Dem primary.

>>15052356
How is Corbyn "utterly incompetent"? Explain in detail using your own words.

>>15052356
learn reading comprehension. after years of continuous smearing the british public obviously hated the man, not surprising at all. if thats your comeback i think we're done here

>>15052374
>dithering on his brexit position and largely sat out the brexit campaign
>failing to take control of the anti-semitism issues in the party which despite what you fags will inevitable say is a media and Jewish plot could have been handled much better by him rather than him seeming largely indifferent or unable to do anything
>attending a Passover event at a far left collective to try and ameliorate the tensions which obviously only served to offend mainstream Jews more
>loses one election
>comes back in the next one with even more radical policies than the last
>facing off against a Tory government that brought the country close to recession and was widely seen as so far doing a poor job of brexit and even saw huge election losses in 2017
>still couldn’t bring the Labour Party to power
Please explain in your own words how this man was not incompetent and was actually an effective political leader who was merely savaged by the media
>>15052375
While we’re at it why don’t you explain as well how this man wasn’t a complete idiot and a terrible politician

>>15052431
his instinct on brexit, to respect the result, was proven right and the decision to back a second referendum was made by keir starmer and others around him

most of the antisemitism issues were holdovers from the parties previous general secretary who kept them on hold to discredit corbyns leadership

>these jews are the wrong jews, you can only talk to conservative orthodox jews and they represent the whole faith entirely

the policy direction was fine and you can already see the conservative government coopting large parts of it in response to corona, nationalizing railways for example

the tories improved on their vote share in 2017, the idea that he was up against an inept prime minister is false and disproven, she hadnt yet fucked up brexit

any other talking points or are we done

>>15052527
The fact you think his position on brexit was actually good and somehow helped him politically shows how little you know or understand. It’s not about respecting the result or not, it’s that he seemed like he wasn’t for remain but never came out for leave either. He couldn’t control any of the anti-semitism issues which you can pin on previous gen secs all you want but it’s his handling of it that made him seem so ineffective, not the presence of it within the party itself. Nobody was really saying corbyn is anti Semitic just that he couldn’t get a handle on it within his own party
>any other talking points or are we done
Kek well you’ll just keep finding ways to justify or excuse his ineptitude and blame his lack of popularity on muh media so unless YOU have any other talking points or any actual evidence of him being a good leader or situations when he really showed himself to be effective then yes I suppose we are. With those conditions though I’m guessing we’re pretty much done and this post won’t get a reply

>>15050565
>hot take
>>>/r/eddit

>>15051617
Because they hate them.

>>15050371
What's going on with the way Zizek rolls his R's? It literally sounds like he's purring.

Is this some kind of Slovene thing? All the other Yugoslavs I've met just sound like normal FOB balkanshits.

>>15050494
Typical Jew

>>15050633
>Southern seats
Labour will never, ever win another election again as long as they give a shit about competing with the lib dems for middle-class southern seats. Fuck those seats, you don't want those voters, let the lib dems and the Tories battle for them.

>>15051608
Sure thing, bro, centrism is the way. Remember how well Ed Miliband did?

>>15053875
This. Labour is nothing without working class voters in the industrial midlands and north, just as the US Dems are nothing without the workers in the midwest (rust belt). Catering to elite liberal "centrists" will always be electoral poison.

>>15050976
Not completely his fault. Labour is just a lost cause filled with liberals.

>>15050371
Zizek was right in naming the issue here, and got censored when he did so.
https://thephilosophicalsalon.com/yes-anti-semitism-is-alive-and-well-but-where/
His output lately has been very bizarre. He seems to be alternating between lazy snippets where he pulls quotes from wikipedia together to academic jargon about reconciling Marxist critique from ecology with Hegel's idea of spirit.

>>15051669
In the modern world, criticizing Israel in any way is anti-semitism. Supporting Israel is always good even when you're a French neonazi whose dad was in the Vichy regime.

>>15052028
>Corbyn wanted to hand the Falkland Islands to Argentina. He was best friends with the IRA when they were blowing people up, and took particular pride in being considered a comrade of theirs. He shilled for open borders and mass immigration at every opportunity. He salivated over Venezuela before it all went to shit. He said the killing of Bin Laden was a tragedy ffs.

The Falklands should be their own state entirely and you're definitely misrepresenting him on Bin Laden. He said even people like Bin Laden deserve Nuremberg Trials to present themselves as all criminals are allowed.

Zizek is right that Corbyn's fence-sitting stance on Brexit was disastrous for the party. It was the number one electoral issue by far, and despite privately supporting Brexit he allowed himself to get bullied into a position that - regardless of what he said - could only ever have led to Brexit being stopped if Labour got into power. This meant that, in order to capitalise on the popular pro-Brexit vote, all they needed to do was see off the Brexit Party (which they did by taking advantage of Johnson's populism and bluster). This was probably the major reason why Corbyn lost so heavily.

The second biggest reason, by my reckoning, is Labour's continued persistence with culture war nonsense which is irrelevant to most voters (e.g. trans recognition, BAME representation in the media). The average working-class voter - particularly white men who get criticised as "privileged" despite being poor - doesn't care one iota about these issues. Worse, Labour also has a sneering attitude towards culture and nationalism, which is important to lots of people (granted, I think Corbyn realised this and was trying to change it, without also alienating the middle-class lefties).

Finally, I think >>15050383 is at least partially correct. You'd be surprised at how many working-class people I know who don't really care about Jews one bit (there aren't any where I live), but still parrot out the line that Corbyn is unelectable because of anti-Semitism in the Labour party. Probably they're just using it as a line of attack because they already dislike Labour for other reasons, but it does go to show that the media smear campaign was widespread and effective.

>>15050400
Anti-semetism might be meh to everyone here, but it's still a big deal in mainstream politics. Especially in the UK - cast someone as "literally Hitler" successfully and its a political death sentence. Look at "Tommeh", despite being overtly as pro-Israel Zionist he's a "Nazi" for his very milquetoast civic nationalism.

>>15055514
Tommy isn't thought of as a racist because of his "milquetoast civic nationalism", it's because he's openly Islamophobic (not saying that's a bad thing, but it's the truth) who came from and still appeals to the football hooligan movement.

>>15050383
>>studiously ignores the concerted effort of the UK Zionist lobby to smear him as an anti-semite

Don't forget they replaced him with a jew straight after he left