/lit/ - Literature

>>15029005
based Zen Master poster, I look forward to another thread full of delightful antics

A warning to redditors before you say "oh my god you need to study this scripture or this Buddhist philosopher to understand Zen because Zen is based on earli-

WRONG

real Zen Masters catagorically reject Buddhist dogmas and scriptures

>>15029041
Before the last thread 404'd someone mentioned 'common themes' in the text. In terms of language used or imagery alluded to, there's a lot.

One of the devices that always comes up is that of a 'mirror' which can be traced back to a poetry contest(wtf? Who has a poetry contest??) between two monks at the 5th Zen Patriarch's community about who would get his robe and bowl.
The loser of the contest wrote:
>The body is the tree of Enlightenment,
>The mind like a bright mirror-stand;
>Time and again polish it diligently,
>Do not let there be any dust.
The winner wrote:
>Enlightenment is basically not a tree,
>And the mind-mirror not a stand;
>Originally there is not a single thing-
>What is the use of wiping away dust?

Later Zen Masters blab on and on and on about this...

>>15029005
What is Zen? Nothing. Then what are we doing? Nothing. What is the point? Nothing. Are we accomplishing anything? No.

>>15029113
Awareness
>raises finger

>>15029208
Sees nothing

>>15029212
start from there

>>15029113
okay then why did you come here you retard

zen is for niggers and jewish fucktards

but I read some books that were called "zen" and I liked some of the ways the translator talked about certain aspects of thought familiar to me

the mind isn't a mirror
its a computer monitor

How do I learn to appreciate koan? I can't get past only seeing it as
>Student asks question
>Master yells BAZINGA
>He was enlightened

>>15030801
You already got it.

>>15030779
Retard

>>15030779
I described for you Zen

>>15030812
>>15030825
>just communicate absolutely nothing and pretend like you have a HIGHER UNDERSTANDING
wow zen is cool

>>15030844
There's nothing to understand with Zen lol literally nothing that's the fucking point retard kys

>>15030846
that's not true you're just a totally insane animal the projects your subhumanity as far and wide as you can see

when "zen people" give these odd quotes it's just something they thought of while training their mind according to a purpose which is common in their school of philosophy

at most its supposed to be a reminder of some mental faculty, it's supposed to resonate with something you have already discovered or something in your instincts, and you can reflect on how differently they described this thing compared to yourself or others

>>15030848
Go to a zen master and ask him what is the point of zen. He will either mimic some sort of large object on his back being thrown off or he will say nothing and smack you

>>15030862
the schools of philosophy attract people who are inclined to think similarly, maybe more than people who are inclined to masquerade to force themselves into a situation that sustains them however fraudulent

>>15030863
there's no such thing as zen masters
you're all fucked up

>>15030872
Zen isn't about sustaining, even though 99.9 percent of them continue larping with it their whole lives or miss the point. Zen is about destruction its about losing your presentations and self

>>15030877
It's just a casual western way of speaking

I really hope that's just a bad translation

If so there should be more gems in it

>>15030892
it's just a casual way of being delusional and stupid

>>15030883
no
it's about conserving your original potential and traversing yourself freely

>>15030924
Youre being pedantic and frivolous because you think Zen is about obtaining something, you obviously don't understand Zen. You're an insufferable cunt.

>>15030927
Which involves the destruction of illusions, which comes with losing your pretensions (I meant to say) and self in the process

>>15030945
no
it involves growing from your heart
maybe illusions are broken as they are displaced

What is it about zen that attracts the most autistic retards?

>>15030935
I WANT MASTERS TO BE REAL SO I CAN BECOME ONE
I WANT MASTERHOOD TO BE REAL SO I CAN OBTAIN IT
I UNDERSTAND ZEN
ZEN ZEN ZEN
ZEN ZEN
ZEN
ZEN MASTER
ME, THE ZEN MASTER

NOT YOU

>>15030953
>it involves growing from your heart
>maybe illusions are broken as they are displaced
Heart, mind, psyche, self same platitudes that mean nothing to Zen. This is drunk talk, there is no "growing" it's about throwing away the illusory weight

>>15030964
maybe if you tell us why you're here we will understand

>>15030969
Cry more cunt

>>15030976
>>15030980
Ah, the illustrious Zen Masters have arrived.

>>15030972
EVERY WORD IS JUST SILLY IN ZEN
EXCEPT WHEN I SAY WORDS LMFAO XD
THEN ITS FOR REAL

you are a fucking pedantic complete fucking moron
you don't understand the most basic reasons for communication, you override them with greed and fear

maybe read this >>15030862
but definitely kill yourself

>>15030980
I HAVE TO BE RIGHT
FROM MY LONG STUDY AT REDDIT.EDU I WILL INCANT SOME MAGIC MEMES THAT SUMMON CORRECTITUDE
CRY MORE
ROFLOLMAO
XD

>>15029093
>(wtf? Who has a poetry contest??)
Walther von Stolzing does, that's who.

>>15030990
>EVERY WORD IS JUST SILLY IN ZEN
>EXCEPT WHEN I SAY WORDS LMFAO XD
>THEN ITS FOR REAL
Non sequitur I have to communicate somehow
>you are a fucking pedantic complete fucking moron
you don't understand the most basic reasons for communication, you override them with greed and fear
Nonsense
>but definitely kill yourself
You first then I'll think about it

>>15030985
I WANT TO TALK ABOUT ZEN
NO WAIT
I WANT TO TALK ABOUT PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT ZEN
I WANT TO BE A BIG BOY

YOU ARE A LITTLE BOY

NOW EVERYONE CAN SEE I AM A BIG BOY
I AM A BIG BOY

>this thread
I don't know why but this thread is the funniest thing I've read through in awhile. Total chaos in a thread about Żeń its marvelous

>>15030997
The only one being Reddit is you

>>15031009
I'M RIGHT
I'M OKAY
I'M RIGHT
I'M OKAY
I'M RIGHT
I'M OKAY
I'M RIGHT
I'M OKAY
I'M RIGHT
I'M OKAY

>>15031017
I HAVE TO BE RIGHT
FROM MY LONG STUDY AT REDDIT.EDU I WILL INCANT SOME MAGIC MEMES THAT SUMMON CORRECTITUDE:
I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I
ROFLOLMAO
XD

>>15031020
I'm sorry I hurt you bro

>>15031027
You have to go back

>>15031028
THIS IS ABOUT ME
THIS IS ABOUT YOU

FORGET ZEN
FORGET IDEAS

I
YOU

I WIN
YOU LOSE

I'M INTACT
YOU'RE HURT

I'M GRACIOUS
YOU'RE PETTY

FORGET ZEN
FORGET IDEAS

>>15031028
>>15031027
>>15031020
>>15031017
>>15031013
>>15031011
>>15031009
>>15030999
>>15030985
>>15030980
>>15030976
>>15030972
>>15030972
>>15030964
>>15030953
>>15030945
>>15030935
for you Zen
Anonymous 04/06/20(Mon)00:16:09 No.15030844>>15030846
>>15030812
>>15030825
>just communicate absolutely nothing and pretend like you have a HIGHER UNDERSTANDING
wow zen is cool
Anonymous 04/06/20(Mon)00:17:08 No.15030846>>15030848
>>15030844
There's nothing to understand with Zen lol literally nothing that's the fucking point retard kys
Anonymous 04/06/20(Mon)00:17:57 No.15030848>>15030863
>>15030846
that's not true you're just a totally insane animal the projects your subhumanity as far and wide as you can see
Anonymous 04/06/20(Mon)00:21:17 No.15030862>>15030872 >>15030990
when "zen people" give these odd q some mental faculty, it's supposed to resonate with something you have already discovered or something in your instincts, and you can reflect on how differently they described this thing compared to yourself or others
Anonymous 04/06/20(Mon)00:21:19 No.15030863>>15030877
>>15030848en masters
you're all fucked up
Anonymous 04/06/20(Mon)00:24:37 No.15030883>>15030927
>>15030872
Zen isn't about sustaining,
Anonymous 04/06/20(Mon)00:26:36 No.15030892>>15030924
>>15030877 of speaking
it's just a casual way of being delusional and stupid
Anonymous 04/06/20(Mon)00:37:04 No.15030927>>15030945
>>15030883
no:38:34 No.15030935>>15030969
>>15030924
Youre being pedantic and frivol
Which involves the destruction5 No.15030953>>15030972
>>15030945
no
it involves growing from your heart
maybe illusions are broken as they are displaced
Anonymous 04/06/20(Mon)00:46:25 No.15030964>>15030976
What is it about zen that attracts the most autistic retards?
Anonymous 04/06/20(Mon)00:46:54 No.15030969>>15030980
>>15030935
I WANT MASTERS TO BE REAL SO I CAN BECOME ONE
I WANT MASTERHOOD TO BE REAL SO I CAN OBTAIN IT
I UNDERSTAND ZEN
ZEN ZEN ZEN
ZEN ZEN
ZEN
ZEN MASTER
ME, THE ZEN MASTER

NOT YOU
Anonymous 04/06/20(Mon)00:47:06 No.15030972>>15030990
>>15030953
>it involves growing from your heart
>maybe illusions are
maybe if you tell us why you're here we will understand
Anonymous 04/06/2on)00:49:35 No.15030985>>15031011
>>15030976
>>15030980
Ah, the illustrious Zen Masters have arrived.
Anonymous 04/06/20(Mon)00:50:03 No.15030990>>15031009
>>15030972ORDS LMFAO XD
THEN ITS FOR REAL

you are a fucking pedantic complete fucking moron
you don't understand the most basic reasons for communication, you override them with greed and fear

maybe read this >>15030862
but definitely kill yourself
Anonymous 04/06/20(Mon)00:51:05 No.15030997>>15031017
>>15030980
I HAVE TO BE RIGHT
FROM MY LONG STUDY AT REDDIT.EDU I WILL INCANT SOME MAGIC MEMES THAT SUMMON CORRECTITUDE
CRY MORE
ROFLOLMA

>>15031027
Zen is an anti philosophy philosophy if that makes sense. It's impossible to communicate it

>>15031033
I HAVE TO BE RIGHT
FROM MY LONG STUDY AT REDDIT.EDU I WILL INCANT SOME MAGIC MEMES THAT SUMMON CORRECTITUDE:
I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I
I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I
I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I
I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I
I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I
ROFLOLMAO
XD

One night I read koans for the 1st time. I tried my hand at writing new ones. Dreamed that I was atop Mount Fuji swimming in a vast lake made of peace. I woke up and jerked off. Now the past few nights I have been talking with Satan before I fully fall asleep and ask if I can relieve him from his post so that he might enjoy living. I fail every time I try. I succeed every time I try.

>>15031050
>>15031047
>>15031045

>>15031048
that's fucking retarded
then how do you know 'zen' to be a thing
because the people you call 'zen' communicated about

you stupid nigger retard
holy shit are you from africa

>>15030972
very true ,liberation is in removal of that which is false
>>15030990 retarded
start from there

>>15031054
I HAVE TO BE RIGHT
FROM MY LONG STUDY AT REDDIT.EDU I WILL INCANT SOME MAGIC MEMES THAT SUMMON CORRECTITUDE:
YOU ARE A ONIONS BOY
ROFLOLMAO
XD

>>15031054
>>15031053
>>15031050
>>15031048
>>15031047
>>15031045
>>15031033
>>15031028
>>15031027
>>15031020
>>15031017
>>15031013
>>15031011
>>15031009
>>15030999
>>15030997
>>15030990
>>15030985
>>15030980
>>15030976
>>15030980
>>15030976
>>15030972
>>15030969
>>15030964
>>15030953
>>15030945
>>15030935
>>15030935
>>15030927
>>15030924
>>15030904
>>15030892
>>15030883
>>15030877
>>15030872
>>15030872
>>15030863
>>15030862
>>15030848
>>15030846
>>15030844
>>15030844
>>15030825
>>15030812
>>15030804
>>15030801
>>15030789
>>15030779
>>15029417
>>15029212
>>15029208
>>15029113
>>15029093
>>15029041
>>15029005
start from here: nigger

>>15031065
you can't remove the false without replacing it with the true you stupid fucking monkey ass kiked out nigger piece of shit bitch

like void spaces just exist or something, what the fuck you are stupid

>>15031058
>that's fucking retarded
>then how do you know 'zen' to be a thing
>because the people you call 'zen' communicated about
>you stupid nigger retard
>holy shit are you from africa
Yes, obviously genius, the point is there is no teaching, nothing to gain, nothing to obtain, only to lose and see clearer more or else. What is a koan? The purpose is not to fill your head with more shit, but to show you the absurdity of the mind

>>15031069
if you think there's a start to zen, you need to start over

>>15031071
>you can't remove the false without replacing it with the true you stupid fucking monkey ass kiked out nigger piece of shit bitch
>like void spaces just exist or something, what the fuck you are stupid
If you fill the false with the "true" you fill it with more false. The "truth" or whatever you want to call it is incomprehsible

>>15031081
ain't that the truth

>>15031073
but the entire line you just said is teaching, trying to gain and obtain knowledge

>absurdity of the mind
what the fuck are you talking about you stupid fuck
for something to be absurd it must be purposely altered from an ideal to become flawed

the mind is capable of perfect honesty in reflecting anything even if it is wrong
that's not absurdity

you are a fucking idiot

>>15030862 this is a hint about what saying are

>>15031071
You see anon you're cucked by your mind that you need somethng to add, as well as being a fatal mongloid but dont worry i will help you

By removing layers of that which is false you will arrive at ones true nature there is no such thing as void .
Read Meister Eckhart
>After being btfoed like a creatin anons mind opened in great enligtenment
No need to thank me peace be upon you

>>15031073
exactly this but how do you convey that to a retarded western mind? just look at the seething they cant understand that which is beyond the mind
its funny how zen master hit the discipline with bamboo stick to kick them out of analytical mind

>>15031081
you don't have to comprehend consciously the truth for it to exist you stupid fuck
that's one of the first lessons in zen

your self is mostly true, it exists after all
your instincts are true, they guided you and your forbears to survival
your DNA is true, it guided your formation and you live and function (barely in your case)

>there's no such thing as truth lmfao everything is false hahahaha
you have no idea what true or false even mean

>>15031095
>but the entire line you just said is teaching, trying to gain and obtain knowledge
I'm quite clear in what I'm stating read above. If Zen was about teaching and filling your brain with more concepts then just go to your local college, zen is not dogmatic. Words do Zen no justice
>what the fuck are you talking about you stupid fuck for something to be absurd it must be purposely altered from an ideal to become flawed
The mind is absurd. Have you ever done Self inquiry the Ramana Maharshi way? The mind is totally absurd, it is an impediment for seeing things as they are.

>>15031107
You can't it's up to the person ultimately

>>15029041
>real Zen Masters catagorically reject Buddhist dogmas and scriptures
Yes and no. They still read Buddhist texts, follow the vinaya and other monastic dogmas, and produce Buddhist texts drawing on theory from other Buddhist texts and sutras. But they don't overly rely on them as a means of awakening.

>>15031109
>you don't have to comprehend consciously the truth for it to exist you stupid fuck
>that's one of the first lessons in zen
When you say the truth exists, it is not an object, it is not tangible, it doesn't involve rationalism, it doesn't involve thinking or logic, thinking is dead and can't lead you anywhere near that. You're a logician aka a worthless retard

>>15031102
you are a completely fake piece of shit everything you say is a lie


the false can only grow where the true has receded
it can only exist where the true is not or perhaps where it has never gone
the false can't create it's own space, it can only destroy space or perhaps occupy space it has held forever
the truth only creates space
the truth cannot exist where the false exists
for the false to stop existing, it must be consumed by the true

true is living
false is death
true is light
false is dark
true is known
false is unknown
true is space
false is void

>>15031111
>I'm quite clear in what I'm stating read above.
>narrating about what you said
you are broken and stupid

you just endlessly spew out random words that can't possibly mean anything
justice
absurd

these are excuses for your lack of perception and comprehension, truth always inspires expression but you just run in the same circles saying the same thing again and again
proving you know nothing

>>15031135
>summon up a bunch of words and pin then on your opponent with no rationale

I HAVE TO BE RIGHT
FROM MY LONG STUDY AT REDDIT.EDU I WILL INCANT SOME MAGIC MEMES THAT SUMMON CORRECTITUDE:
YOU ARE A WORTHLESS RETARD
ROFLOLMAO
XD

every object is true
everything tangible is true
everything rational is true
thinking can be true or false
logic can be true or false
thinking can be alive or dead
thinking can lead you one way or another, any which way

>>15031162
>these are excuses for your lack of perception and comprehension, truth always inspires expression but you just run in the same circles saying the same thing again and again
>proving you know nothing
There is nothing to know in regards to "truth" or anything in Zen terms. This is about "knowledge" not knowledge in the colloquial sense of reading or studies, but knowledge real knowledge, knowledge that is incomprehensible, robust, infinitely alive and intelligent. Thought is dead, the mind is dead and can only lead you astray. Jumping off a cliff is not easy, but there is solace to be made when you realize the fear of dissolution or death was nothing all along.

It appears this argument is a matter of degrees. In Buddhist thought, when we say something 'exists', we mean 'has self nature, independent from other things'.
Conventionally, we can say something exists. It is a practical word we use to describe perception within the world.
Ultimately, we know nothing can be pointed to as existent because everything lacks a definite self-nature (everything arises co-dependently).
Beyond that, there is what is truly ultimate which cannot be described. Things are neither existent nor non-existent, not not existent nor not non-existent, not existent and non-existent, and not not existent and not non-existent.

>>15031178
We are always talking about thought and thinking. What is thought? Have you ever looked at thought, let along controlling thought; let alone manipulating thought; let alone using that thought for achieving something material or otherwise? You cannot look at your thought, because you cannot separate yourself from thought and look at it. There is no thought apart from the knowledge you have about those thoughts -- the definitions you have. So if somebody asks you the question, "what is thought?" any answer you have is the answer that is put in there -- the answers that others have already given.

You have, through combinations and permutations of ideation and mentation about thoughts, created your own thoughts which you call your own. Just as when you mix different colors, you can create thousands of pastel colors, but basically all of them can be reduced to only seven colors that you find in nature. What you think is yours is the combination and permutation of all those thoughts, just the way you have created hundreds and hundreds of pastel colors. You have created your own ideas. That is what you call thinking. When you want to look at thought, what there is is only whatever you know about thought. Otherwise you can't look at thought. There is no thought other than what there is in what you know about thought. That's all that I am saying. So when that is understood the meaninglessness of the whole business of wanting to look at thought comes to an end. What there is is only what you know, the definitions given by others. And out of those definitions, if you are very intelligent and clever enough, you create your own definitions. That's all.

When you look at an object the knowledge you have about that object comes into your head. There is an illusion that thought is something different from objects, but it is you who creates the object. The object may be there, but the knowledge you have about that object is all that you know. Apart from that knowledge and independent of that knowledge, free from that knowledge, you have no way of knowing anything about it. You have no way of directly experiencing anything. The word "directly" does not mean that there is any other way of experiencing things other than the way you are experiencing things now. The knowledge you have about it is all that is there and that is what you are experiencing. Really, you do not know what it is.

>>15031204
In exactly the same way, when you want to know something about thought, or experience thought, it is the same process that is in operation there. There is no inside or outside. What there is is only the operation, the flow of the knowledge. So you cannot actually separate yourself from thought and look at it.

So when such a question is thrown at you, what should happen is [the realization] that none of the answers have any meaning, because all that is acquired and taught. So that movement stops. There is no need for you to answer the question. There is no need for you to know anything about it. All that you know comes to a halt. It has no momentum any more. It slows down, and then it dawns upon you that it is meaninglessness to try to answer that question, because it has no answer at all. The answers that others have given are there. So you have nothing to say on that thing called thought, because all you can say is what you have gathered from other sources. You have no answer of your own.

>“There is a thinking more rigorous than the conceptual”
~Martin Heidegger

>“The Tao is beyond is and is not. How do I know this? I look inside myself and see.”
~Lao Tzu

>“...the most extreme sharpness and depth of thought belongs to genuine and great mysticism”
~Martin Heidegger

It is something unconscious, or as many have preferred to know it, supraconscious- because it is something higher, deeper and greater. Conscious definitions imposed by an ego terminology are merely constructions to it, whether rational or irrational here or there as absolutes. This is exemplified by Heidegger's "there-ness"; and naturally this all follows from a realisation of the dominance of experience over typical thought, a mystical experience. One must really see the unconscious as an absolute base for all experience, and so something more than which can be "engaged with" but is always engaged and always somewhat "there"- what follows is a realisation of it. It is just that for many the "mind" is confused with or interchangeable for the conscious experience, and hence comes the term "beyond the mind". Or rather is it "underneath the mind":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MCtPhoRcIw

Irrefutably the unconscious must be held as the deepest relation to Being, or being in Being in Being?

>"God lets the oppositional will of the ground operate in order that might be which love unifies and subordinates itself to for the glorification of the Absolute. The will of love stands about the will of the ground and this predominance, this eternal decidedness, the love for itself as the essence of being in general, this decidedness is the innermost core of absolute freedom."

Being is nothing but sacred.

>>15031195
Nicely put

>>15031208
Why does this guy have so many comfy photos? That sweater man, hngggggg /comfy/.

>>15031182
I FOUND A GREAT LANGUAGE TO HIDE FROM ALL MY FEARS
ITS CALLED ZEN
AND YOU ARE ALWAYS RIGHT ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU DON'T SAY ANYTHING AT ALL IN THIS LANGUAGE

OH YOU MEAN KNOWLEDGE I THOUGHT YOU MEANT KNOWLEDGE
IT WAS YOUR FAULT I WAS STUCK IN ONE DEFINITION

this is the same problem you have with probably every word you say
"thought is dead" what the fuck, you stupid nigger then why do you have thought and yet live?
you can just live with death growing on you?
NO
thought and mind are part of life, they never cease while there is life, you can never escape them even if you kill yourself because they are not your own and you are not your own

to say you have no mind is delusion, "no mind" is just retreating in your mind to a place you cannot recognize or control, perhaps to the mind and self that is not your own
when something is created it always radiates
like the sun in the void drawing life from far away and bringing it into its space, thereby creating light and growing truth

>>15031242
When I say thought is dead, thought is the past, thought is passed down to you is it not? What we call "you" (I'm not referring to causal speaking, but how we operate) is nothing but thought the thought "I" refers to the body (mistakenly) and this is the world as you experience it, so there is no way of separating yourself from this, or finding a way out, or finding "truth" because it only perpetuates that, which is wholly false.

>thought and mind are part of life, they never cease while there is life, you can never escape them even if you kill yourself because they are not your own and you are not your own

Yes, I am not claiming a thoughtless state to be possible, but you can reach a point where thought no longer chokes you and makes you it's slave which is ultimately what we are discussing.

>>15031231
And whether the unconscious "perception" of Being is procedural or genetico-eternal, should be scientifically investigated, but does not really matter for this.

What are these long texts of bullshit ,zen is the simplest of all truths, mind is bullshit
*raises finger
start from there

>>15031231
>roasties quotes from facebook

>Raises finger

Wowza, this thread really got derailed...
Here's some Deshan:
>Attendant Huo asked Deshan, "Where have all the sages since antiquity gone?"
>Deshan said, "What? How's that?" Huo said, "The order was for a 'flying dragon' horse, but 'lame tortoise' shows up."
>Deshan let it rest.
>The next day when Deshan came out of the bath, Huo passed him some tea. Deshan patted Huo on the back.
>Huo said, "This old fellow has finally gotten a glimpse."
>Again Deshan let the matter rest.

>>15031838
You know what fuck (you).

Besides, you know it's true.

>>15031069
I must admit, I may have "LOL'd" at this one!

-SCOUT

>>15031416
>>15032584
I FOUND A GREAT LANGUAGE TO HIDE FROM ALL MY FEARS
ITS CALLED ZEN
AND YOU ARE ALWAYS RIGHT ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU DON'T SAY ANYTHING AT ALL IN THIS LANGUAGE

>>15031292
a word can be honestly used to mean several things and it is good to encompass the possibilities so you can understand what your friend in conversation might say and learn from his perception, or catch hints in your enemy's bravado that could show you a way to enter the space where his mind is not his own and there cut him away from the world

what is choking and and being a slave?

being a slave is relative, saying one is a slave is probably emotional motivated by a desire for dominance or maybe just a convenient approximation of this phenomenon:
your self is not wholly your own, what is your own is governed by what is called 'free will', this may occupy more or less of your self than in other people, and if it is less you might call them a 'slave' because the will of other men occupies their self where in the same place in your own self your free will reigns

From Dongshan
>A monk said, "The Master normally tells us to follow the bird path. I wonder what the bird path is?"
>"One does not encounter a single person," replied the Master.
>"How does one follow such a path?" asked the monk.
>"One should go without hemp sandals on one's feet," replied the Master.
>"If one follows the bird path, isn't that seeing one's original face?" said the monk.
>"Why do you turn things upside down so?" asked the Master.
>"But where have I turned things upside down?" asked the monk.
>"If you haven't turned things upside down, then why do you regard the slave as master?" said the Master.
>"What is one's original face?" asked the monk.
>"Not to follow the bird path," responded the Master.

This 'original face'; who can show it? It obv. ain't by following the bird path that's for sure.

>>15034457
its so blatantly dishonest to post like this
you are a braindead animal copying and pasting something to associate it with yourself

you have no words of your own because you have no understanding to inspire them

>>15034569
Yeah...posting what Zen Masters said in a thread entitled #Zen is dishonest?
Lemme guess, if I spammed a sutra or linked to an Osho video you'd be totes on board?

Either way, 'understanding to inspire' has nothing to do with your original face. Try again.

>>15034063
>>15031242
>>15031178
>>15031050
>>15031047
>>15031045
>>15031020
>>15031027
>>15031011
>>15030997
>>15030990
>>15030969
Zen has completely destroyed this guy's fragile framework for perceiving the world through. For context, this is the third thread I have personally witnessed this schizophrenic meltdown.

this thread o_O

>>15034634
It's almost comical. Whenever there's a thread or a forum about Zen, people flock to it expecting some confirmation of their religious doctrines, meditation cults, or New Age crystal healing scams...
When someone quotes a Zen Master curbstomping all that nonsense, people run to the hills yelling that the person who posted it is 'deluded beyond saving and burning in hell' or something of the equivalent.

>>15034590
>>15034656
when you post it without reflecting on it it's dishonest
you are saying you understand it without proof or support of any kind
also it's like offering help and teaching but then refusing to give any

not only this, you never post any reflection or analysis and you post quotes again and again
you have absolutely no words of your own other than to narrate what happens here in favor of your self-importance

you are an absolute liar, you say nothing that is true at all
you are an insane animal addicted to seeing 'posts' around what you say to delude yourself of importance

you should be killed

>>15034625
I HAVE TO BE RIGHT
FROM MY LONG STUDY AT REDDIT.EDU I WILL INCANT SOME MAGIC MEMES THAT SUMMON CORRECTITUDE:
>schizophrenic meltdown
ROFLOLMAO
XD

>>15034656
when "zen people" give these odd quotes it's just something they thought of while training their mind according to a purpose which is common in their school of philosophy

at most its supposed to be a reminder of some mental faculty, it's supposed to resonate with something you have already discovered or something in your instincts, and you can reflect on how differently they described this thing compared to yourself or others

>>15034590
Zen Masters
Zen

>>15034656
Zen
Zen Masters

>>15034625
Zen

>>15034836
I presented many texts people can read if they're interested in Zen..
For the people who aren't foaming at the mouth having meltdowns about how I need to be killed, am totes jewish, or are an animal, etc. etc.
Here's a small portion of the translated texts written by, or recorded from Zen Masters:
>Sayings and Doings of Pai-chang, Thomas Cleary: Baizhang
>The Bodhidharma Anthology, Jeffrey Broughton: Yuan
>Master Yunmen, Urs App: Yunmen
>The Recorded Sayings of Zen Master Joshu, James Green: Zhaozhou
>Sun Face Buddha, Cheng Chien Bhikshu: Mazu & Hongzhou Folks
>The Zen Teaching of Huang Po, John Blofeld: Huangbo
>Zen Teaching of Instantaneous Awakening, John Blofeld: Dazhu Huihai
>The Zen Teachings of Master Lin-chi, Burton Watson: Linji
>Zen and Zen Classics: Volume Four, Mumonkan, R.H. Blyth: Wumen Huikai
>A Tune Beyond the Clouds, J.C. Cleary: Shiqi Xinyue
The Gateless Gate(Mumonkan) is the most well-known. A Japanese cult, incidentally, tried to ban it.
>>15034861
Disagree entirely. If you're interested in Zen, and aren't interested in making unreasoned inferences about how they're "training their mind" or belong to a "school of philosophy" I listed plenty translated texts above. They reject both of those claims on the spot.

>>15034880
>>15034890
Imagine a retard in a padded leather helmet tied to a post pacing in circles at the end of its tether, and there is a stone that has the word "ZEN" written on it in his path, and every time he comes around he trips on it and says "Zen"

>>15034892
Zen
Zen Masters
Zen

>>15034892
LOOK AT ALL THE MASTERS
I AM AMONG THEM
ONLY WE KNOW TRUTH
YOU CAN'T TALK ABOUT US
THERE ARE NO WORDS
EXCEPT THE ONES WE WROTE
YOU CAN'T WRITE ABOUT US
WE ARE THE MASTERS
NOT YOU

>>15034892
>They reject both of those claims on the spot.
That's an unreasoned inference.

>>15034935
No, it's based on what they consistently said and were quetioned on. Here's one excerpt:
>Kaixian Zhi said to a group, Aim and instruction are provisional expressions; Buddhas and patriarchs are imposed terms. Receiving instruction and communicating mind are both vanities; seeking reality and searching for truth get even further off. If you take your self and your own mind to be ultimate, there is necessarily something else and someone else in contrast.
>At that time a monk asked, “What would be right?” He said,
>“’Right’ means there is ‘wrong.’”
>“How does one gain entry?”
>“When were you ever outside?”

So any sort of aim, focus, and instruction with the purpose of seeking reality and searching for truth are totally irrelevant. The same goes for morality. That sorta kills the 2 'training mind' and 'school of philosophy' birds with one stone.

>>15034625
>>15034901
Imagine getting this filtered by a true living Zen Master.

>>15034958
>So any sort of aim, focus, and instruction with the purpose of seeking reality and searching for truth are totally irrelevant.
That's an unreasoned inference

>That sorta kills the 2 'training mind' and 'school of philosophy' birds with one stone
how?

>>15034656
>>15034590
>>15034892
Look at this posturing faggot pull out these non sequiturs about religious bogeymen, look at him trying to shut down honest discussion with his slavish devotion to the scriptures of his precious Zen Masters (pbuh). We've already got our resident schizoposter in guenonfag and he's far more entertaining, go away.

>>15034958
This mentally retarded animal can't reconcile its constant insistence that explanations and lessons are without value with the value it places on quotations and texts

Refusal to debate is an admission of dishonesty
What is true is what continues to exist, what is true cannot be tested without combat, without fighting among other potential truths and destroying them while continuing to exist

One can never be certain if the truth will remain true, so to govern one's actions well one must always be testing the truth in battle, in debate

>>15035363
Got it, you claim "unreasoned inference" yet can't provide evidence you used to claim that. I point out how their words directly reject your assertions about them being interested in training of the mind or philosophy.

>>15035444
Imagine being so reddit-brained you treat zen like it's the talmud lmao

The charlatans tout zen like the jews tout monotheism.

It's special, there's no comparison just forget everything and follow me!
Everything is in the place where I'll take you!

>>15035457
Like I said...if all you've got are 'u r jew' when someone confronts you with your own illiteracy, why did you even open up this thread? There are plenty of cults willing to sell you on the lobotomy you seem interested in.

>>15035444
>I point out how their words directly reject your assertions
you can't provide evidence you used to claim that
everything you've said is an unreasoned inference

you are just narrating, not explaining, you don't use the opponent's terms in your arguments or argue any comparable terms to connect your narrative

you constantly reframe any question to terms that are receptive to your extremely limited language

>>15035475
if all you've got is "zen masters didn't say that" or "just read what the zen masters said" when someone confronts you about not explaining or discussing anything, why did you even open up this thread?
There are plenty of cults willing to sell you on the lobotomy you seem interested in.

>>15035457
>Imagine being so reddit-brained
I can't
when I try all I get is the urge to kill

>>15035475
Zen Masters aren't interested in lobotomies.

>>15035485
So if you can't explain what you mean by 'training the mind' or elaborate what constitutes a 'philosophical school' why should anyone take what you want to try and contend as being based on inquiry?

"Unreasoned inferences" means jack-all when you are unable to provide evidence for those initial assertions.
Take a breather. Open a book. Try again.

>>15035502
Agreed. So why are people coming in here trying to sell people their 'just believe in teh magical jesus/sutras/osho/meditation' BS?

>>15035502
That's an unreasoned inference

>>15035509
Unreasoned inference. No one is doing that, that's all in your head.

Wtf is going on here? I came here wanting to read more antics of a bunch of old asian men, and all i see is threadless shitflinging.

>>15035504
>if you can't explain what you mean by 'training the mind' or elaborate what constitutes a 'philosophical school'
what indication is there I can't
did you ask?
did you show any willingness to even approach a discussion in these terms or provide or competing explanation?
why would anyone work to re-explain to you personally when you offer nothing?

>"Unreasoned inferences" means jack-all when you are unable to provide evidence for those initial assertions
evidence? what is evidence?
so when YOU claim "Unreasoned inferences" you had "evidence" of what zen actually is?
but you also just summon up quotes and insist they agree with your narrative with no explanation, how can that be evidence?
you don't make any statement of what zen is, you only make statements of what zen is not, that's not positive reasoning and therefore it cannot be evidence

so it turns out everything you say is Unreasoned inference

>>15035571
I WAS TRYING TO PRETEND I WAS AN OLD ASIAN MAN LIKE IN ANIME

Maybe if you narrate about it some more you some one will step aside and service your desires

>>15035509
Agreed. So why are people coming in here trying to sell people their 'just believe in teh magical Zen, Zen Master' BS?

>>15035571
Sure, here's some more, from Wansong's Book of Serenity.
>National Teacher Zhong asked an imperial attendant monk, "What does 'Buddha' mean?"
>The monk said, "It means 'enlightened'.
>National Teacher said, "Has a buddha ever been deluded?"
>He said, "No, never deluded."
>National Teacher said, "Then what's the use of enlightenment?"
>The imperial attendant had no reply.

>Wansong: This also has the meaning of fundamentally no delusion or enlightenment.

>>15035597
Who told you to believe a word they said? If you're complaining about the title of the thread, you're at liberty to make a #NotZen thread and post all the make-believe you want there.

>>15035586
Wtf dude. What’s wrong with you? This is my first post itt. I just wanted to read excerpts in a literature board and all you’re doing is fucking lowering the quality of this board. Honestly, why are you so mad?

>>15035571
>It's not what I wanted!
>It's threadless!
>Only what I want has a coherent thread

>>15035598
Zen Masters aren't interested in Wansong, not a Zen Master. Try again.

>>15035598
some more WHAT?

>>15035602
>>15035509
Who told you to believe a word they said? If you're complaining about people coming and discussing their ideas of zen, you're at liberty to make a #OfficialZenOnly(tm) forum and post all the make-believe you want there and delete everything else

>>15035605
Any evidence to support that claim? Or just more of you trying to do a fanboy impersonation of me?

>>15035604
This thread was never about zen or whatever, it's about a severely autistic man trying to pass himself off as a wise sage.

>>15035604
>YOU AREN'T GIVING ME WHAT I WANT
>You aren't supporting my whining!
>There must be something wrong with you!
>I only like HIGH quality
>I don't like this, this is LOW quality
>It doesn't make me mad
>You're mad! There's something wrong with you!

>>15035617
Prove Wansong is a Zen Master using only real Zen Masters, burden of proof is on you.

>>15035614
Some more topical content for discussion.
When did I say I believed a word they said? I posted up a thread to discuss what they said and the conversation veered towards how it specifically conflicts with Buddhism. I'm really baffled as to why you came into this thread if all you wanted to do was announce how upset you are that I chose to discuss some literature on a literature board.
If you want to discuss your fave. religious literature or church pamphlets, I'm sure many other people would share that interest.

>>15035604
>This just my first post!!! Give me another chance!!! Don't judge me plzzzzzz. Plz give me what I want, it's making me angry that I'm not getting my way

I love in these schizophrenia in these threads the poetry and contrast of mind insanity and zen
“Followers of the Way, this thing called mind has no fixed form; it penetrates all the ten directions. In the eye we call it sight, in the ear we call it hearing; in the nose it detects odors, in the mouth it speaks discourses; in the hand it grasps, in the feet it runs along. Basically it is a single bright essence, but it divides itself into these six functions.”

“If your mind entertains a moment of doubt, it becomes obstructed by the element earth. If your mind entertains a moment of craving, it becomes drowned in the element water. If your mind entertains a moment of anger, it is seared by the element fire. If your mind entertains a moment of delight, it is tossed about by the element air. If you can understand that this is so, however, you will not be swayed by the environment but can utilize the elements wherever you may be.”

So what is Zen?
Masters would reply to their disciples with one word >Attention or >Awareness
pure and simply without any conceptual need to get anywhere or to do some something special
But it is not a passive brain dead state , there is effort in effortlessness
It is an active state of remaining in your true nature and from there participating in the world .
It is the most direct way of being natural self without any seeking.

>>15035598
You're implying Wansong is a Zen Master that Zen Masters would be interested in?
Any evidence to support that claim? Or just more of you trying to do a fanboy impersonation of zen?

>>15035618
What do you mean? The Op is clearly stying he’s going to post excerpt from a zen book about what old zen masters did. Then one poster made some claims and has responded to every single comment itt in all caps, not allowing anykind of discussion among anons.

>>15035633
>>15035646
Sure. Touzi Yiqing & Linquan Conglun were both his Dharma heirs and wrote a hefty sized book of Zen instruction and mentioned Wansong. Shiqi Xinyue also mentioned the guy a couple centuries later.
If you find anything he says that indicates he wasn't a Zen Master, be sure to post it up.

>>15035664
>Dharma
Indubitably not Zen, nice try though hylic.

>>15035635
I'm really baffled as to why you posted up a thread to discuss what they said if you don't actually discuss anything anyone says and all you wanted to do was announce how upset you are that others chose to discuss some literature on a literature board.

>topical content for discussion
that's an unreasoned inference, do you have any evidence to prove that?

>>15035653
>Op is clearly stying he’s going to post excerpt from a zen book about what old zen masters did
lol that was never his intent.

>>15035618
You got dabbed on quite hard retard you had to resort to all caps because of how retarded you are. You got wrecked admit it

>>15035639
>schizophrenia
what proof is there that you aren't the schizophrenic one?

>>15035653
He become fragile once he got called out. It's typical, he's too brainlet for zen

>>15035664
You're implying Douzi Yiqing & Linquan Conglun were both his Dharma heirs
Any evidence to support that claim? Or just more of you trying to do a fanboy impersonation of zen?

If you find anything that indicates he was a Zen Master, be sure to post it up.

>>15035683
So...you're not only a religious troll but you're a pretend mind reader too? Dude, you're really falling apart at the seams here...
Like I said, I've posted topical content for discussion and various trolls have had public meltdowns saying I will 'burn in hell, am deluded, ought to be killed' in response to that.
I've always encouraged people to post up topical content for discussion as well. Though...people who are illiterate? They can't do that.

>>15035639
We are all in psychosis

>>15035691
Unreasoned inference.

>>15035709
Yep, the textual record recording their teachings indicates they were. Since we established you need to spoonfeed you basic information; how about you take 5 and come back after you muster up the courage to open a book?

>>15035653
THEN THAT ONE POSTER RESPONDED TO EVERY SINGLE COMMENT IN ALL CAPS, AND HE PHYSICALLY STOPPED ME AND OTHER ANONS FROM ANY KIND OF DISCUSSION

>>15035683
>Another exciting thread to discuss the delightful antics of Zen Masters
It seems clear from the op. Unless there’s some missing context.

>>15035717
Zen Masters aren't interested in books.

>>15035716
It's fun to trigger that retard.

>>15035720
It’s called flooding.

>>15035720
IT'S ALL HIS FAULT, HE TOOK AWAY MY PHYSICAL AGENCY WITH WORDS ON A SCREEN

>>15035691
I HAVE TO BE RIGHT
FROM MY LONG STUDY AT REDDIT.EDU I WILL INCANT SOME MAGIC MEMES THAT SUMMON CORRECTITUDE:
>you're a retard
>all caps proves you're retarded
ROFLOLMAO
XD

>>15035724
This has been going on for a few threads now.

>>15035730
Any evidence whatsoever to support that?

>>15035741
You’re just repeating and copy/pasting the same lines in all caps and responding to everyone. This is spamming/flooding.

>>15035735
I HAVE TO BE RIGHT
FROM MY LONG STUDY AT REDDIT.EDU I WILL INCANT SOME MAGIC MEMES THAT SUMMON CORRECTITUDE:
>flooding
ROFLOLMAO
XD

>>15035712
I HAVE TO BE RIGHT
FROM MY LONG STUDY AT REDDIT.EDU I WILL INCANT SOME MAGIC MEMES THAT SUMMON CORRECTITUDE:
>Dude
>you're really falling apart at the seams here
>public meltdown
I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I
ROFLOLMAO
XD

>>15035746
Are you illiterate? Read any Zen Master, I'm not here to spoonfeed you.

>>15035713
yes
>>15035694
>raises finger
>EheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeM
''Attention''

>>15035741
I love seeing you triggered. Little roach bitch

>>15035717
>the textual record recording their teachings indicates they were
indicates they were what? zen masters?
That's an unreasoned inference

Since we established you need to spoonfeed you basic reasoning skills; how about you take 5 and come back after you muster up the courage to open your mind to basic function outside of the realm prescribed by arbitrary authorities?

>>15035759
It's cute that you like to impersonate me like a little kiddo but still, that won't cure your illiteracy.

>>15035752
>>15035763
I HAVE TO BE RIGHT
FROM MY LONG STUDY AT REDDIT.EDU I WILL INCANT SOME MAGIC MEMES THAT SUMMON CORRECTITUDE:
>spamming
>flooding
>triggered
ROFLOLMAO
XD

>>15035784
It's cute that you like to narrate people's actions like a little kiddo but still, that won't cure your inability to reason or justify your bias

>>15035784
So you haven't even read the Zen Masters? Get out.

>>15035789
U

>>15035763
LOL you were just complaining about how you were prevented from posting what you wanted because some one typed at you in all caps....
Not only do you have nothing to say but you are actually triggered and admitted it yourself and are too stupid to even realize it

>>15035801
I HAVE TO BE RIGHT
FROM MY LONG STUDY AT REDDIT.EDU I WILL INCANT SOME MAGIC MEMES THAT SUMMON CORRECTITUDE:
>sciencenigger blowjob reference
ROFLOLMAO
XD

Back again with Zhaozhou, any takers?
>A monk asked, "To be holy-what is it like?"
>Joshu said, "To dump a mountain of shit on the clean plain."
>The monk said, "Master, make this clear for me."
>Joshu said, "Stop fucking with my head."
SOLD! Not even worth a penny.

>>15035761
>>15035639
It's funny that you imply other's aren't schizophrenic when you externalize your personality to a cartoon character

Brothers... the True Zen has been expounded by Guenon (pbuh) through his based contemplation... based

>>15035815
Back again with Nieg-Noug, any takers?
>Nigga, we don't care who you shot
>Nigga, quit talkin' money 'round rich niggas
>Nigga, we don't care what you got
>Bitch, I got six niggas that hit niggas
Boy, I don't get it for fuck

>>15035833
Ok this is pretty based, where to start with Guenon?

maybe Zen was the cup of tea I drunk while trying to make sense of this dumpster fire of a thread

>>15035819
>Start from there

>>15035857
read
>>15035639
Its freedom from the mind , they would hit you a bambo stick to get you out of analytical mind ,especially the seething anons here

>>15035843
Start with Crisis of the Modern World then move onto The Reign of Quantity and the Signs of the Times, from there where ever you're interested and you should probably get initiated by then.

>>15035891
I HAVE TO BE RIGHT
FROM MY LONG STUDY AT REDDIT.EDU I WILL INCANT SOME MAGIC MEMES THAT SUMMON CORRECTITUDE:
>seething
ROFLOLMAO
XD

>>15035891
I would hit you with a bamboo stick just for the sake of it.

>>15035833
Based. This is now a Zen-Sunni thread

Some more content.
>Once, when Yunyan was making some straw sandals, Dongshan approached him and said, "I would like to have the Master's eyes."
>Yunyan said, "Where have yours gone?"
>"Liangjie[Dongshan] has never had them." replied Dongshan.
>Yunyan said, "Supposing you did have them, where would you put them?"
>Dongshan said nothing. Yunyan said, "Isn't it the eye that desires eyes?"
>"It is not my eye," replied Dongshan.
>"Get out!" thundered Yunyan.
My eyes have fallen out!

>>15036134
ZEN
I KNOW WHAT ZEN IS
THAT'S HOW I KNOW WHAT TO COPY AND PASTE
IT'S ZEN
ZEN
THE PROOF IS IN THE PASTA

>>15036096
u are now copyng the another seething anon see how easily i made you butthurt, you are now my bitch
I can teach you zen no need to thank me
>Raises finger
start from there

>>15036256
I HAVE TO BE RIGHT
FROM MY LONG STUDY AT REDDIT.EDU I WILL INCANT SOME MAGIC MEMES THAT SUMMON CORRECTITUDE:
>seething
ROFLOLMAO
XD
I AM pepebuddha.jpg
I HAVE SPOKEN

Based. There was a story about a master replying "I'm not a log" in response to a question, and the questioner replying "what a fine lack of understanding!". Can someone post it, if they have it?

>>15036415
I gotchu senpai. From Zhaozhou, this guy is a freakin' superstar:
>A monk asked, "When I am completely void of understanding, what then?"
>Joshu said, "I understand even less."
>The monk said, "Master, do you not know what is?"
>Joshu said, "I am not a log. Why shouldn't I know?"
>The monk said, "What a fine lack of understanding!"
>Joshu clapped his hands and laughed.

>>15036455
so wut dat mean zen?

>>15036256
hehe im in your mind , you're weak you're in my frame

>>15036415
Zen dialogues are same as morrowind ones

>>15029005
I went from reading the Hsin Hsin Ming to reading 'In The Buddha's Words' and I fucking miss reading Zen bros. Gotama Buddha is so fucking repetitive why can't he preach the Way simply?

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Zen#Do_the_moderators_of_this_page_even_study_zen?
lol this dude was sperging out on the wikipedia page too

>>15036650
>>15036455

>>15036625
The monk was totes trying to stick out a pot of glue for Zhaozhou to step in by asking what it is to to be completely void of understanding, Zhaozhou sidestepped that by saying that he understands even less than that!! The monk makes a second probe asking if he even knows 'is' and Zhaozhou is like no shit, I'm not a freakin' log; why wouldn't I know?
The monk applauds this sardonically as a fine 'lack of understanding' Zhaozhou laughs.

So we have a case here where 'not understanding' is the issue at stake and Zhaozhou on put on direct examination by the monk. But because Zen Masters are notorious for not having carved out a place to place any flag, Zhaozhou can't be pinned down here about his "understanding of non-understanding".

>>15036863
but do you practice zen ? autismo anon

>>15036915
He only reads his sacred scriptures.

>>15036915
When is something not practicing Zen?

>>15036915
I'm not sure why you think 'autism' has anything to do with someone reading stuff other people claim to 'totes know all about'.
I drink water when thirsty and I pass urine when nature calls; beyond that I don't establish a practice.

>>15036934
> The various states of one who is free of uncertainty within, and who outwardly wanders about as he pleases like an idiot, can only be known by someone in the same condition.

I do love how all the various religions end up converging. Yes, I know Zen isn't a religion but still.

>>15036934
Zen implies an active side to it not just passive consciousness no better then watching tv
As masters often responded to what zen is as attention
Their attention is high but not hanged on anything

>>15037273
>>15037273
This is why publicly challenging people comes to be such a prominent tradition with the lineage. Lots of people talk about how they are “free from uncertainty”. That’s not really language Zen Masters ever use much at all but the next question to ask is...what are they “certain” in?

>>15037324
Nothing

>>15037454
It's pretty clear from the above exchange that they don't seek certainty in 'nothing whatsoever or nothingness', we get lots of cases where some Zen Master pushes a monk to silence or slaps them when they try to do as much, occasionally to much comedic effect, sometimes to a 'aw jeez what was that guy expecting' reaction.

They do talk about 'seeking for and attaching yourself to nothing'; if you don't take any fixed expression as your basis, where can anyone pin you down?

>>15037481
Who's this they we're talking about? I'd like to meet them.

>>15037481
answer >>15037282

>>15037481
Zen masters have nothing on this man. They're still acting unnaturally, theyre atill act from the source (mind)

>>15037529
It seemed to him like "a sudden 'explosion' inside, blasting, as it were, every cell, every nerve and every gland in my body." Afterwards, he started experiencing what he called "the calamity", a series of bizarre physiological transformations that took place over the course of a week, affecting each one of his senses, and finally resulting in a deathlike experience. He described it this way:

I call it "calamity" because from the point of view of one who thinks this is something fantastic, blissful and full of beatitude, love, or ecstasy, this is physical torture; this is a calamity from that point of view. Not a calamity to me but a calamity to those who have an image that something marvelous is going to happen.[5]

Upon the eighth day:

Then, on the eighth day I was sitting on the sofa and suddenly there was an outburst of tremendous energy – tremendous energy shaking the whole body, and along with the body, the sofa, the chalet and the whole universe, as it were – shaking, vibrating. You can't create that movement at all. It was sudden. Whether it was coming from outside or inside, from below or above, I don't know – I couldn't locate the spot; it was all-over. It lasted for hours and hours. I couldn't bear it but there was nothing I could do to stop it; there was a total helplessness. This went on and on, day after day, day after day.[5]

The energy that is operating there does not feel the limitations of the body; it is not interested; it has its own momentum. It is a very painful thing. It is not that ecstatic, blissful beatitude and all that rubbish – stuff and nonsense! – it is really a painful thing.[5]

U.G. could not, and did not, explain the provenance of the calamity experiences. In response to questions, he maintained that it happened "in spite of" his pre-occupation with – and search for – enlightenment. He also maintained that the calamity had nothing to do with his life up to that point, or with his upbringing. Several times he described the calamity happening to him as a matter of chance, and he insisted that he could not possibly, in any way, impart that experience to anybody else.[5][9]

None of you reading this will ever do this so just stop larping you're only deluding yourself and mankind.

>>15037519
There's a few books on Amazon, some translations better than others almost all uniformly padded with unnecessary and offtopic introductions.
In terms of a text written by a Zen Master that contains lots of cases but is not the size of a doorstop, the Gateless Gate by Wumen Huikai is the one. The Record of Zhaozhou & The Record of Linji are both stuff I've cited to quite a bit in these threads. They're both in the top 5, famous Zen Masters everyone's heard of but no ones actually bothered to read, category.

this happened to me but it wasnt for few days just hours

>>15037557
>>15037625

>>15037631
>>15037625

verything I read here is bullshit
you are all hyperstimulated by media bombardment
you all have this hideous greed of false knowledge to posture with
look how you all throw around meaningless names, not explaining anything, stringing together blithering nonsense so you have an excuse to use your fancy words
I sense many niggerized leftist abominations here
fuck you, you are retarded, you have no real language but you are so desperate to spew noise
if you want to understand anything you should start by cutting your stupid tongue out of your retarded mind, it possesses you
it would be good to slaughter most all of you

https://terebess.hu/zen/UnfetteredMind.pdf

You have to listen to learn
You can't hate yourself, like having a constant desire to change your life
You were assembled from many pieces that were selected according to a method and purpose
You have to trace this process
You have to observe your own mind and deduce the substance of instinct, the original mind, and the substance of purpose, the true mind, distinguishing these from compulsion, the will forced on you by others or by what might be called misfortune.
You will never succeed with a thousand bonfires each burning away at your mind, the memory of every excitement, the lust for more, put them out

>I HAVE TO POST QUOTES I HAVE TO STUDY THE MASTERS(TM)

see this is what zen was a reaction to
these kind of insane, enslaved lines of thought
interrupting purpose and a rational construction of the world in one's mind to go chasing after the glory of other men

living in a world of this shit and gaining the freedom to feel no shame of being different or other obstruction and just functioning, just expressing your mind honestly, is divine

Forget about quotes
you need to teach your mind and body to talk to each other
you need to train and put everything you know in as many different terms as possible if you want to understand riddles and answer questions

you are confused because your thoughts and desires are disconnected and contradictory because you haven't put them in common terms (objective thought)

One day, the Fifth Patriarch, Hung Jen assembled all his disciples and said,"Go and seek for Prajna in your own mind and write me a stanza (gatha) about it. The one who understands the reality of Buddhist nature will be the Sixth Patriarch."

The head disciple, Shin Shau composed his stanza and wrote it on the wall of the corridor, so that the Patriarch might know what spiritual insight he had attained. The stanza read:


Our body is the Bodhi tree,
And our mind is like a bright mirror with stand,
Diligently we wipe them all the time,
And let no dust alight.
Later, Hui Neng who worked in the kitchen heard a young man reciting the stanza. At once, he realized that the stanza did not reveal the reality of Buddhist nature.

As he was illiterate, he asked people to scribe his stanza, which reads:

There is no Bodhi Tree
Nor the stand of a bright mirror,
Since all is void,
Where can the dust alight?
Eventually, Hui Neng received the robe and Dharma from Hung Jen, and became the Sixth Patriarch of Zen Sect in China.

>>15037752
Get spiritual insight hylic
>COPE

>>15038107
>that retarded fucking drone posting meme identities and calling people "hylics"

>ADDDURRR I WENT ON THE INTERNET A LOT AND HAD SOME GUD TIEMS AND I SAW THIS GREEN FROG AND THIS WHITE GUY DURING THOSE TIEMS AND NOW I LIKE GREEN FROG AND NOW I AM GREEN FROG, AND NOW I LIKE WHITE GUY AND NOW I AM WHITE GUY
>LOOK HOW I CUSTOMIZED THE PERSONALITY I DOWNLOADED FROM 4CHAN.EDU, I'M A REAL BOY

>>15029005
Not you again,

Lets start:
When you meet a man of the Way on the path, do not meet him with words or in silence. Tell me, how will you meet him?

>>15038181
I will retreat in my mind to the source until I am inspired by my perception of him to meet him a certain way

>>15038200
MORON!

concentrate.

>>15038208
When you meet a man of the Way on the path, do not meet him with words or in silence. Tell me, how will you meet him?

>>15038244
I appreciate your assistance, but worry not of my mind.

>>15038251
holy shit

>>15038174
Seethe and cope
>Raises finger
start from there

>>15031073
Is that a bit like becoming un-spooked?

>>15038948
spooked un spooked, yes no up down, why? when? who? what?

Sideways, above and under, black and white, man and woman, smart and dumb

Words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words and some more words.

A spook, a faulty thing to grasp, but which thing to grasp is not faulty?

Why is it unfaulty too not grasp the faulty? Are you not the most spooked of all?

>>15038948
If you look at the tree and you see tree you are spooked

>this thread
Let me write a few points down which I think would greatly elevate the level of discourse here.
1. Be cordial. We all are fellows in the Dharma, and we should engage one another as brothers, save for those who commit a grave error of slandering the Dharma. In this case, then it is useless and no more conversation should be entertained with these foolish ones.
2. Zen is not 'chaos'. Zen traces itself to the Gautama Buddha and to the patriarch Bodhidharma. Zen Buddhists follow the vinaya, the moral ethics of Buddhists, and monks undergo monastic learning under an approved master of the lineage. They still study Buddhist sutras, and perform rites. The key difference, is that they do not preference these as a means for salvation.
Zen practice is aimed at reading the mind for a direct realization of Buddha-Nature, which is beyond the world of conceptual thought. It is often done as by means of direct transmission of knowledge from teacher to student, because language is often seen as inadequate at (accurately) conveying information. This is why oftentimes koans take the form of an action.
3. Unless I am completely mistaken, no one here is a zen master, and very few if any are practitioners. Do not claim enlightenment or secret knowledge for yourself when it is clear this is not true. Do not claim others do so if they are trying to discuss zen.

>>15039054
>reading
readying*

>>15039054
Let me ask you, if i was cordial and humble, would i have been more effective at teaching?

Can you make this>>15038992 point in a better way?

You are complicating things further, cordial is meaningless. Right thought is all thats needed.

>>15039054
>Unless I am completely mistaken, no one here is a zen master, and very few if any are practitioners. Do not claim enlightenment or secret knowledge for yourself when it is clear this is not true. Do not claim others do so if they are trying to discuss zen.
There is no enlightenment.

>>15039091
No teacher, no teaching, no student

>>15039101
You started it!

>>15039091
It does not seem like you were effective at teaching, friend.
That is the problem here. This thread is aimed at discussion, not teaching. There must be a common ground or nothing will get across. Hostility destroys quality discussion and can drive curious minds away from the Dharma.
>>15039094
There is not 'enlightenment' from the perspective of what is ultimate, but there is from the perspective of what is conventional. We take the conventional perspective in this case because were are using conventional means and understanding to discuss it - this is our 'middle ground', where even non-Buddhists can understand. In a conventional understanding of time, enlightenment occurs at a single linear point, even though it can be argued to be non-existent. From what is ultimately true however, it cannot be said that there is no enlightenment.

>>15039105
>>15039094
https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Mystique_of_Enlightenment/Part_One

>>15039129
so many words...

In the days of Rinzai there was a saying, how in the past minds were sharper. That most became awakened with a single sentence.

But in the days of Rinzai it took more work, for people had became dull.

Damn those old gooks if they saw how it was today...

>>15039133
I do not know what you expect from an internet forum wherein the only means of communication are by text.
I hope you are also not implying that zen students don't communicate by 'words'. I refer you to the shobogenzo.

>>15039129
It's impossible to know. For it doesn't exist within the framework of thought, everything you or some zen monk says is purely speculative. >>15039131

>>15039150
Doesnt exist within the framework of thought or experience* There is no way out.

>>15039150
This is a wholly secular predicament. The Gautama Buddha achieved enlightenment and taught for the sake of humanity. The tathagata has trillions of dharma paths, of which zen is one. Every zen patriarch has experienced enlightenment, and the lineage has stretched back to the Gautama Buddha.
Buddha Dharma is already posited to exist outside ipsocentric thought/experience. This is no new information.

>>15039148
You cannot explain zen, or the dao by text.

But you can agitate, and probe a poster to find the answers on their own.

By being wordy you are only pushing them away from zen.

>>15039177
>This is a wholly secular predicament. The Gautama Buddha achieved enlightenment and taught for the sake of humanity.
Secularism has nothing to do with what I'm saying. Let's say "enlightenment" is real no enlightened man would ever attempt foolishly to teach or for one second see it as possibility whatsoever or to pass it on, for it is totally outside of the framework of experience, outside of thought, it is a physical calamity UG Krishnamurti goes into detail on this.

>Every zen patriarch has experienced enlightenment, and the lineage has stretched back to the Gautama Buddha.

They wish. Again let's say "enlightenment" is real 1 in probably 800 million do this.

>>15039200
By means of text you can interest someone in zen, who may then wish to find out more about it or perhaps incorporate a zen practice in their life. Or maybe through zen they find another form of Buddhism instead.
I do not think you are doing much probing by making up koans. Students contemplate koans and their commentaries sometimes for months on end under a teacher. I am hard pressed to believe an anon will contemplate 4chan posts for more than 30 seconds.
Being hostile and non-transparent to sound more 'zen' kills discussion and is more misleading.
>>15039202
>Let's say "enlightenment" is real no enlightened man would ever attempt foolishly to teach or for one second see it as possibility whatsoever or to pass it on, for it is totally outside of the framework of experience
You seem to underestimate the understanding given by enlightenment. I said the tathagata provides trillions of dharma paths, because the world honored Gautama Buddha taught to the level of his students. That is to say, he taught from within the framework to guide others out of it. This is why all Buddhist sects are seen as valid approaches, it is just that some -like zen- are more expedient than others and are tailored to ones of higher motivation.
I would like here to draw a distinction between self-power and other-power. Zen leans more towards self-power at realizing enlightenment, whereas other-power is more characteristic of faith based paths like the pure land tradition.
>They wish. Again let's say "enlightenment" is real 1 in probably 800 million do this.
You seem like you are claiming authority on who is enlightened or not. Please refrain from slandering the dharma masters unless you make a grave sin.
Why do you seem to say enlightenment is unlikely or hard to achieve? It is hard to achieve for those who cannot cultivate bodhicitta and are attached to the world of appearances. I would like to think it is easy under the right circumstances, and there is no better circumstance than the teachings of the world honored one and his lineage.

>>15039238
>I do not think you are doing much probing by making up koans. Students contemplate koans and their commentaries sometimes for months on end under a teacher.

as i said here >>15039146
maybe you are right, and ive been naive to the spiritual state of the world.

>>15039238
To your first point. There is no way whatsoever, I mean this, no way whatsoever to aid is such an endeavor. No amount of zazen, no amount of sultras, no amount of walking meditation, none of it can help you. The impediment is "you" you are still functionally unnaturally, you are still wanting, you are still living in la la land if you think that anything helps. Nothing does. You fall off the proverbial cliff or you dont.
>You seem like you are claiming authority on who is enlightened or not. Please refrain from slandering the dharma masters unless you make a grave sin.
Why do you seem to say enlightenment is unlikely or hard to achieve? It is hard to achieve for those who cannot cultivate bodhicitta and are attached to the world of appearances. I would like to think it is easy under the right circumstances, and there is no better circumstance than the teachings of the world honored one and his lineage.
Why should I care about an ordinary man? If there is anyone like that in this world today trust me he isn't wearing robes, he isn't reciting passages, he isn't meditating, he is indistinguishable, and you might even call him insane

>>15039270
>Why do you seem to say enlightenment is unlikely or hard to achieve? It is hard to achieve for those who cannot cultivate bodhicitta and are attached to the world of appearances. I would like to think it is easy under the right circumstances, and there is no better circumstance than the teachings of the world honored one and his lineage.

Why should I care about an ordinary man? If there is anyone like that in this world today trust me he isn't wearing robes, he isn't reciting passages, he isn't meditating, he is indistinguishable, and you might even call him insane

Whoops let me distinguish that better your text wasn't all in green

>Nie Que was questioning Wang Ni. Four times he asked a question, and four times Wang Ni said he didn’t know. Nie Que proceeded to hop around in great glee and went and told Master Puyi. Master Puyi said, “Are you just now finding that out? The clansman Youyu was no match for the clansman Tai. The clansman Youyu still held on to benevolence and worked to win men over. He won men over all right, but he never got out into notman. The clansman Tai, now—he lay down peaceful and easy; he woke up wide-eyed and blank. Sometimes he thought he was a horse; sometimes he thought he was a cow. His understanding was truly trustworthy; his virtue was perfectly true. He never entered non-man.

>Liezi was on a trip and was eating by the roadside when he saw a hundred-year-old skull. Pulling away the weeds and pointing his finger, he said, “Only you and I know that you have never died and you have never lived. Are you really unhappy? Am I really enjoying myself?”

>>15039270
>No amount of zazen, no amount of sultras, no amount of walking meditation, none of it can help you. The impediment is "you" you are still functionally unnaturally, you are still wanting
Zen agrees with this, but you misinterpret the purpose of these practices. These are all aimed at weakening the insistence on the concept of self, the 'you'. There are zen masters who have argued against wanting enlightenment, as even there there is still a clinging to a self.
>You fall off the proverbial cliff or you don't
Either one does or does not understand, this is true. Either one follows zen or he does not. When one does not understand zen teachings, then he may pursue a different dharma path more suited to his particular stage of development.
I think to give up on cultivating bodhicitta is a big error.
In your case, it is also speculative that what exists outside of thought is speculative. To not seek awakening, the betterment of yourself, is foolish in my opinion when you have the teachings of the Buddha and the tradition and experiences of many others before you. It is foolish because you are trapping yourself in ipsocentrcity and suffering.
>Why should I care about an ordinary man?
Who are you referring to here? Please don't tell me it is who I am thinking you are saying, otherwise this conversation would be over.
>If there is anyone like that in this world today trust me he isn't wearing robes,
Why should I trust you? What makes your word authoritative? If I adopt your understanding, there is no reason for me to trust your words. There is good reasoning on the other hand to trust the three treasures, which have produced wonderful teachers and texts.

>>15039340
you talk of following, pursuing, cultivating and seeking. this is where you fail.

>>15039340
>Who are you referring to here? Please don't tell me it is who I am thinking you are saying, otherwise this conversation would be over.
If such a man exists he is so ordinary and impossible to put in a box, impossible.
>Why should I trust you? What makes your word authoritative? If I adopt your understanding, there is no reason for me to trust your words. There is good reasoning on the other hand to trust the three treasures, which have produced wonderful teachers and texts.
Don't listen to me I'm not saying that, trust no one.

>>15039355
I do not claim to be 'enlightened'. Bodhicitta is the beginning of Buddhist development. I do not think I have heard of any Buddhist doctrine that disparages bodhicitta (save a few zen teachers in very specific contexts). There is no realization without bodhicitta, this separates Buddhists from non-buddhists.

>>15039371
>There is no realization without bodhicitta, this separates Buddhists from non-buddhists.
It's not technically needed, but it's idealism to think some average Joe stumbles upon such a thing (again for conversation purposes saying there is something, there isn't) excluding Ramana Maharshi

>>15039368
I believe you are speaking with good intentions, but I don't see how this view is any different from hedonism.

>>15039383
it's idealism to think average Joe better or worse than Ramana Maharshi.

>>15039371
you are right about one thing. there is no realization.

>>15039394
I am not. But, are you saying there is a way out?

>>15039415
Yes there are ways out, and they were revealed in this era by the Gautama Buddha. We have the historic enlightenment of the Buddha, of the Buddha's disciples and lineage, and the Buddhist teachings as evidence.

>>15039415
>>15039427
enlightenment is an Indian fantasy. And not true Buddha nature.

You experience awakening and then walk with the dao/zen. But do not hope for cosmic redemption.

>>15039427
how is this evidence?

>>15039437
It is evidence because it is well attested, and the thought can be engaged with and found to be sound. As much as anything can be evident, it is evidence.

>>15039427
Who cares about Buddha, he is worthless along with every word he uttered.
>We have the historic enlightenment of the Buddha, of the Buddha's disciples and lineage, and the Buddhist teachings as evidence.
Hasn't seemed to have done much except distort further and impede further

>>15039435
>enlightenment is an Indian fantasy. And not true Buddha nature.
What do you consider Buddha nature then?

>>15039449
You have committed a grave sin by slandering the Buddha. I am sorry to say, but it is useless to speak with you any further.

>>15039456
You never heard the saying "when you meet Buddha kill him"?

Penis into vageen
Frog into pond
Silence, a zen master dies in the confusion of hell

>15039464
That quote is taken out of context and is dangerous by itself. As written by Eisai in Treatise on Letting Zen Flourish, zen naturally follows the vinaya. Slandering the Buddha is a sin.

>>15039446
it doesn't seem to do you any good by engaging with it. that much is evident.

>>15039449
>quoting UG
Who cares about UG? he was myopic and lumped everyone in the same basket because he had no ability of discernment, and then he elevated himself above them all pompously, the anti-guru turning into a guru, he is worthless along with every word he uttered. A man who could not tell the difference between a charlatan like Osho and a sage like Socrates or Buddha....

>>15039476
Anon, you're not going to like what I'm about to say, and you will probably misunderstand what I'm about to say, but a psychopath, rapist, totally insane person has an infinitely better chance at such a thing as "enlightenment" (assuming it is real)

>>15039479
It has made me a better person, with a truer understanding of the world.

>>15039485
>and then he elevated himself above them all pompously, the anti-guru turning into a guru,
This is false, it's not his fault people wouldn't leave him alone.
>A man who could not tell the difference between a charlatan like Osho and a sage like Socrates or Buddha...
There's no difference

>>15039491
not by measuring your conduct in this thread.

>>15039452

It cant be put into words. Having said that;
Its a state of concioussness beyond categorization.

Since you were young your parents, teachers and your own mind, has been building a library of thought and categorization. To truly understand the world and your own mind the best you can, you must go beyond what you learnt.

Zen buddhism arose from a collision between daoism and mahayana buddhism.

Its daoists that recognized the dao within the doctrine of buddhism.

If you are free from categorization you are allowed to rediscover what you learned.

The rational mind is to concioussness as the state is to a nation.

The state builds roads, creates railway stations, creates frameworks for you too live within (laws, regulations)

But the real nation exists between the roads, outside of the railway stations, yet attached to it.

You need to think from inbetween the roads of your rational mind. In the open space where no duality, no categorisation exist. There you can truly understand.

>>15039489
This is only true in one context (Shinran's exposition of true faith in the Amidha Buddha's eternal vow) which I don't think you are referring to; these types of people you have just outlined are acting out of ipsocentricty. I think you misrepresent the basic meaning of enlightenment. It's not 'just don't care for morals/social norms'.

>>15039493
>there's no difference
your lack of discernment is your own problem, since you can't tell the real from the illusory, the true from the false, all you see appears muddied together.

>>15039498
This is only an understanding from negation. Enlightenment/Bodhi-dharma is the negation of the negation.

>>15039499
As I described above ie madman and let's say an "enlightened" man the line of demarcation is paper thin. Anyone telling you that such a man is pleasant, nice, holy, or infinitely good is selling you shit

>>15039510
All three of them were prostitutes

>>15039511
as i said words can only go so far.

>>15039522
I utterly disagree and I find your statement absolutely repugnant. In your nihilism you have somehow equated a being of ultimate compassion with some type of sociopath acting out of pure egocentricity.
I don't know why you are here, because you are not a Buddhist and are not discussing zen.

>>15039547
likewise

>>15039555
Not him but you are way off.

What face did you have before your parents were born?

>>15039555
>>15039547
What makes you think such a man is compassionate? He's more reactive then anything

>>15039588
What makes you think he is reactive? We are reactive right now.
What makes you think he is not compassionate? It is rare to meet a Bodhisattva let alone a Buddha, but in conventional reality they are compassionate beings. A large part of Buddhist practice is generating compassion for all sentient life.

>>15039576
i am him but not the he that you refer to.
>>15039588
>>15039547
the whole compassion and repugnancy dualism says more about what's wrong with modern buddhism than anything else.

>>15039610
this has a nice sentiment.

>>15039610
>What makes you think he is not compassionate? It is rare to meet a Bodhisattva let alone a Buddha, but in conventional reality they are compassionate beings.
If he said "human beings are virus on this earth" would you still apply those standards? Again how can we fit such a man in a box? There's no way to understand such a person, he is ordinary, and indistinguishable.

>>15039617
I do not think you are familiar with Buddhism, then. It is and has always been highly moral. Read the Shobogenzo Zuimonki for a zen perspective of this.
>[You] should maintain the precepts and eating regulations 1 (one meal a day before noon, etc.). Still, it is wrong to insist upon them as essential, establish them as a practice, and expect to be able to gain the Way by observing them. We follow them just because they are the activities of Zen monks 2 and the lifestyle of the Buddha’s children. Although keeping them is good, we should not take them as the primary practice. I don’t mean to say, however, that you should break the precepts and become self-indulgent. Clinging to such an attitude is an evil view and not that of a Buddhist practitioner. We follow the precepts or regulations simply because they form the standard for a Buddhist and are the tradition of Zen monasteries. While I was staying at Chinese monasteries, I met no one who took them as the primary concern.
>...Practitioners of the Way certainly ought to maintain Hyakujo’s regulations. The form of maintaining the regulations is receiving and observing the precepts and practicing zazen, etc. The meaning of reciting the Precept Sutra day and night and observing the precepts single-mindedly 7 is nothing other than practicing shikantaza, following the activities of the ancient masters. When we sit zazen, what precept is not observed, what merit is not actualized? The ways of practice carried on by the ancient masters have a profound meaning. Without holding on to personal preferences, we should go along with the assembly and practice in accordance with those ways.

>A Case:
>Caoshan asked elder De, "'The buddha's true reality body is like space: it manifests form in response to beings, like the moon in the water'--how do you explain the principle of response?"
>De said, "Like an ass looking in a well." Caoshan said, "You said a lot indeed, but you only said eighty percent." De said, "What about you, teacher?" Caoshan said, "Like the well looking at the ass."

~Kir's Two Challenges~
To self-identifying Buddhists, define Buddhism; identify how and when Zen Masters taught any of the doctrines and authority that you might allege form the basis of Buddhism.
To Dogen/Hakuin religionists, where do Dongshan/Caoshan or Linji respectively teach the religious practices and doctrine your cult-leaders claimed they did and your priests repeat on a daily basis as being at the heart of Zen?

>>15039639
What does moralism have to do with a free man?

>>15039639
Dogen wasn't a Zen Master; he was a well known fraud who copied the title of his "Shobogenzo" from Dahui but instead invented a cult doctrine centered around his shifting beliefs and make-believe transmission he claimed he got from Rujing. There is next to 0 reason to believe any of the things he said about his own history much less claims of any connection to "Zen".
All this came to a head when he started having mental breakdowns in later years and lashing out at Yunmen & Linji despite previously claiming to be part of their lineage.

>>15039649
What prisoner declares himself free yet cannot escape his cell?

>>15039655
Nice no citations for all of this.

>>15039639
i am not familiar with buddhism, nor do i aspire to be. we are discussing enlightenment or awakening or whatever you would like to call it, a state of being that does not require familiarity with buddhism.

>>15039661
Yes, but I'm talking in a way assuming there is such a thing since the other anon is so adamant there is

>>15039661
a boddhisatva

>>15039683
Every "teacher"

>>15039683
A bodhisattva is free from the material world, they just postpone complete enlightenment for the purpose of helping sentient beings. They do not abide in a physical body in the physical world.

>>15039690
so much is lost in text and communication in general. but i really like the free prisoner as an analogy for enligthenment.

>>15039694
Buddha never claimed to be able to "escape" from the physical world. only from the pain that it causes.

>>15039498
unbelievably based, what did you just do to me? I haven't felt this way since i was a kid, its like seeing in color for the first time

>>15039667
What citations do you want?
Dahui wrote the 'Shobogenzo' a full century before Dogen. None of the teachings Dogen expounded are found in that text, despite him brazenly plagiarizing the title of a popular text at the time. If you dispute this, provide a citation to Dahui's text and compare it with what Dogen established in Japan.

Dogen also claims to have been enlightened under Rujing. There is huge debate as to whether Dogen ever went to China or even knew Chinese based on his ever-changing story over his life but that is kind of a secondary point. If you dispute this, cite to Rujin's partially-translated text and provide evidence of a 'zazen is enlightenment, cultivation is the dharma gate of bliss' crap.

None of the texts we have translated from Rujing indicated he ever taught Dogen's doctrines or upheld his beliefs. Nothing from Dongshan or the 300+ Zen Masters he references in his "Koan collection" teach any of that either. If you dispute this....cite to any of the Zen Masters Dogen wants to tie his cult to.

>>15039701

>>15039717
unironically he seems to emulate exactly what he berates

>>15039734
He never asked for anything, he never talked about this stuff past his 49th year unless someone brought it up or visited him, he never asked for a book to be written, interviews, people came in and out of his life through word of mouth or got in contact with people that knew him , he had a worldly reputation due to his early life in the theosophical society. He repudiated gurus time and time again. He made no profit from anything under his name, he was asked in an interview what do you what to be remembered for when you die he said "nothing destroy everything in my name" something to that effect

>>15039759
then why didn't you?

>>15039712
Dahui's Shobogenzo is a koan collection, it is entirely different from the structure of Dogen's shobogenzo. It isn't a 'copy', and anyone who has read either of them would quickly realize this. Have you compared them?
>There is huge debate as to whether Dogen
No there isn't. There is no serious debate as to whether Dogen went to China. The only thing I can even find to try to understand your position is a book by a man named Bielefeldt who states "In sum, then, while it is certain that, when Dogen returned to Japan in 1227, he brought back a certificate verifying his inheritance of the dharma of the abbot of T'ien-t'ung, it is much less certain what such inheritance meant at the time". That is to say, this author agrees that he went to China and agrees he received a dharma transmission. This is not a 'huge debate'.
>zazen is enlightenment, cultivation is the dharma gate of bliss
Ah, so you do not know what you are talking about.

>>15039764
All I can say is it never fully dies no matter what or who you are or what you have "done"

>>15039783
>Dahui's Shobogenzo is a koan collection
Dahui disagreed. Sure, it's mostly a compilation of cases, but has commentary and instruction added on by Dahui as well. None of those cases or instruction contain anything that formed the basis of Dogen's religion. If you dispute this, cite to the text.
>It isn't a 'copy', and anyone who has read either of them would quickly realize this. Have you compared them?
I never said the 10 or so completely different and contradictory and 'secretly transmitted' Dogen Shobogenzo's we have in circulation are a copy of Dahui's Zen text at all. I pointed out he plagiarized the title of a well known Zen text to peddle his cult doctrines. He also plagiarized various Buddhist texts to construct his Fukanzazengi and didn't cite to a single Zen Master to support his nonsense claim that seated meditation has anything to do with enlightenment.
> certificate verifying his inheritance of the dharma of the abbot of T'ien-t'ung,
Again, no Zen Master teaches that the dharma is inherited by means of a toilet paper certificate. The doctrines Dogen taught were completely rejected by Rujing, Dongshan/Caoshan, Bodhidharma and any other Zen Master he tried to attach his cult to. Like I said, if you dispute this, cite to any of these Zen Masters and produce the doctrines Dogen claims they taught.

>>15039817
DOGEN BTFO

this thread is all fucked up

there are people responding to themselves deceptively
arguing pointlessly for greed of status
worshiping idols because of rumors of their title and status, pretending to understand quotations but not explaining
not tracing their own experience
not using words of their own

only one person tried today
you are all retarded animals

that namefag is the worst, most demonic, most delusional
it can't use anything other ZEN MASTER(tm) for practice
it can't just draw an example from anything or from nature, it hasn't done so once
what a fraud worthy of death

>>15039456
>Slandering the Buddha is a sin
Buddha is an ignorant fool with mental retardation, I know much better.
I piss and shit on the Buddha's face after smashing its face with a pole and burning its body with a torch and gouging out its eyes
then I rip out its loins and watch it bleed to death, and finally I eviscerate it and fill its body with pig shit
I hang it on strings like a puppet and make it dance around for my entertainment every day until it becomes too rotten to prop up any longer

Then I find a new idol and do similarly

>>15031069
all me

>>15041529
>Buddha is an ignorant fool with mental retardation, I know much better.
>I piss and shit on the Buddha's face after smashing its face with a pole and burning its body with a torch and gouging out its eyes
>then I rip out its loins and watch it bleed to death, and finally I eviscerate it and fill its body with pig shit
>I hang it on strings like a puppet and make it dance around for my entertainment every day until it becomes too rotten to prop up any longer
HOLY BASED

>>15039817
that doesn't explain why Dogen would be wrong about anything or why people who rejected him would be right

but it does explain that you are a demented idiot that has only hierarchy and status in your mind rather than knowledge

"is" "zen" a kind of "the only winning move is not to play" thing?

>>15041621
Again, I pointed out that he wasn't a Zen Master and that the entire basis for his cult is personal, historical, and textual fraud. Zen Masters were never interested in the kind of "knowledge" Dogen tried to sell to people and call Zen. If you have any evidence from a Zen Master that they taught Dogens doctrines, present it.

If you're interested in following a cultleader, sure why not? Why step out of your church and pretend it has anything to do with Zen though?
>>15041667
No. If someone came to challenge them or question them they would engage 100% and call out people who claimed to have attained something but when questioned crumb -- as phonies.. Zen Masters notoriously challenged and "shit-tested" each other, across lifetimes, across centuries. Zen isn't something that's affirmed by some clown presenting a toilet paper certificate and claiming it gives them authority.

>>15041667
No. Its about awakening and discovering your Buddha nature, too free you from dukkha and become a better person. Most zen practitioners return to normal life after getting what they want from zen. But some stick around and study and sometimes teach.

What Buddha nature is you have to find out for yourself.

>>15035713
epic mentall illness yes I too am a real lunatic lets all be totally insane together right now I am entering a hypomanic episode as I type this I sure hope my delusions wont get worse through this I already flushed all my medication in my last psychotic bout and now I cant go outside becauzse my ocd forces me to stay inside after the 4th of every month until I cut all my fingernails but I am only allowed to cut one per day

>>15041702
Zen Master
Zen Master
Zen
Zen Master
Zen Master
Zen

>>15041708
>Buddha nature
>dukkha
>Buddha nature

>What Buddha nature is you have to find out for yourself
if you have to find out for yourself, if that's the only way, then how do you have a name for it?
how do you know you are talking about the same thing as the authority you copied the term from?
you can't at the very least recount and trace what happened in your own mind while putting this term in it?
you have no self awareness?
you don't even know what the words you say mean?
you're a fraud?

>>15041702
>Zen Masters notoriously challenged and "shit-tested" each other
so the schizo poster itt is actually a zen master too, thanks for clearing that up

>>15041740
>schizo poster
you?

>>15039498
this post is good, this is what this entire thread should be

>>15041762
no the all caps person, I just got here

>>15041786
so you then

>>15041736
Im asking you to do some homework.

Or answer this question:

What face did you have, before your parents were born?

>>15041794
your mind games won't work on me pal

>>15041813
yeah they do

>>15041798
you are pretending to be a teacher while offering no proof that you should be, you are a fraud

if you were honest you would give your own answer, but you're mentally ill beyond all reasoning

>>15041821
how do you know my mind games aren't working on you right now instead?

>>15041844
because you're schizophrenic

>>15041829
The nature of zen, or the dao, is that its beyond words.

>>15041740
Not sure who you're referring to but no, spamming stuff in all caps or repeating religious dogma has never been a "challenge"

>>15041829
What face did you have, before your parents were born?

Concentrate.

>>15041872
that's an unreasoned inference

>>15041851
you'd have to be schizophrenic yourself to know this, how long have you ben schizophrenic my friend?

Another bit from Caoshan:
>A monk asked Caoshan, "How is it when the mourning clothes are not worn?"
>Caoshan said, "Today Caoshan's filial duty is fulfilled."
>The monk said, "How about after fulfillment of filial duty?"
>Caoshan said, "Caoshan likes to get falling-down drunk."

There was once a woman
who lived in the same village
as a Zen master.

The woman becomes pregnant
and tells the Zen master
that he is the father

The reality of the situation
is that the Zen master
was not the father.

To her he replied: "Ok"

The Zen master
raised that child
as if it were his

Many years went by
the child now a teen
when a mysterious man
waltzes into the village

(you know where this is going)

and the mother
looks to the zen master
and tells him

"All those years ago,
I lied to you.
This man is actually the father."

to which the Zen master replies

"so what"

>>15042444
Poor form. The zen master would neither care nor not care, there was no past in which she said this to him.