/lit/ - Literature

Free will is actually not real, every action you have made has been preordained in my opinion, however God gives us the illusion of choice so that we can enjoy ourselves. With that illusion you eventually come to your fated end, Heaven or Hell

>>15039135
I see where you're coming from, but I disagree.

God gave us free will, as in true free will. This gets contested by verses that mention how "all things work out for his glory in the end" but my interpretation is that, while we make our own choices, he manipulates and guides us instead of directly controlling us. We have true free will, but in the end things work out the way he planned because he is outside of time.

>>15039147
Considering he could literally seize every bone in your body or just open the ground to swallow you, considering death is the end of all mankind, how can you say you had a choice in the matter?

>>15039154
I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say

>>15039123
No we do not have free will. You are analogous to a computer.
t.spent years trying to figure this out

I have yet to come across a single valid argument in favour of free will (that is, what is called "libertarian free will", the colloquial/ normalfag understanding of the term), I am almost convinced that every single person who decides to think about this topic for more than a moment will eventually come to some kind of deterministic conclusion.

>>15039161
If you choose to live, you will still die.

>He who saves his life will lose it, but he who forsakes his life shall save it alive

We likely have compatibilist free will, but the concept of libertarian free will is completely absurd, since it essentially claims that human actions cannot be caused or influenced.

>>15039123
B

1/4 , 1/4 from b .
Now fuck off

I simple do not care about the question nor its answer. This, in my own way, gives me as much free will as I could ever need.

>>15039288
based retard

>>15039123
It's B

>>15039288
HAHAHA HAHAHA PRISON IS FUN

>>15039342
>>15039230

Time goes in a loop. What I do during my life etches out my eternal existence that I will repeat forever when my time comes up again. Because time loops means that it's infinite. So I can always interpret myself as being at the beginning of this loop. I have to do what I'm doing now to push back against all the other wills in the universe and secure my spot in life so that things can play out the way I want them to again and again forever. I have free will.

Shout out to icycalm

It's in the middle of the square on top

>>15040780
still nearer than B.
>>15039203
try reading about compatibalism. its bullshit though
>>15039228
how is compatibalism less absurd. its simply wishful thinking. read william james "the dilemma of determinism". his argument: hard determinism leads to pessimism therefore hard determinism doesnt exist.

>>15039123
Doesn't say I have to put it on the box at all. B is literally the farthest box point from A so placing it somewhere that isn't the box is the only solution. I am right and you are wrong soviets are all dumb can't even form proper math problems.

>>15041001
Nah I worked it out the shortest path to B is 2.83cm (go diagonally across to half way up the first side then diagonally up to B), shortest path to middle point of top square is 3.06cm

It doesn't matter if we have it or do not. It's a nonsensical "problem" that should be forgotten.

>>15041081
ignore this I worked it wrong lmao

>>15041081
Way to B:
22+12=c2
4+1=c2
5=c2
sqrt(5)=2.23

way to your point:
22+0.52=c2
4+0.25=c2
sqrt(4.25)=2.12

>>15039123
If “free will” means that God gives humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny, then yes, human beings do have a free will. The world’s current sinful state is directly linked to choices made by Adam and Eve. God created mankind in His own image, and that included the ability to choose.

However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases. Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature. For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge—his nature prevents him from flying. In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from canceling his guilt (Romans 3:23). So, free will is limited by nature.

This limitation does not mitigate our accountability. The Bible is clear that we not only have the ability to choose, we also have the responsibility to choose wisely. In the Old Testament, God chose a nation (Israel), but individuals within that nation still bore an obligation to choose obedience to God. And individuals outside of Israel were able to choose to believe and follow God as well (e.g., Ruth and Rahab).

In the New Testament, sinners are commanded over and over to “repent” and “believe” (Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Acts 3:19; 1 John 3:23). Every call to repent is a call to choose. The command to believe assumes that the hearer can choose to obey the command.

Jesus identified the problem of some unbelievers when He told them, “You refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:40). Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; their problem was they chose not to. “A man reaps what he sows” (Galatians 6:7), and those who are outside of salvation are “without excuse” (Romans 1:20-21).

But how can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good? It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free” in the sense of being able to choose salvation (John 15:16). It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person (John 1:12-13) and give him/her a new nature “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24). Salvation is God’s work. At the same time, our motives, desires, and actions are voluntary, and we are rightly held responsible for them.

>>15041237
Passages such as Romans 8:29–30 and Ephesians 1:5–11 explicitly teach that God predestines some to salvation. The word translated “predestine” means “determine the destiny before.” There is no escaping the fact that God predetermines who will be saved. On what basis God predestines who will be saved can be debated, but predestination itself is absolutely a biblical teaching. Numerous other New Testament passages also refer to believers’ being chosen or elected to salvation (Matthew 24:22, 31; Mark 13:20, 27; Romans 8:33; 9:11; 11:5–7, 28; Ephesians 1:11; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1–2; 2:9; 2 Peter 1:10).

There is nothing in the Bible that teaches human beings have a free will, at least not in the sense of how many people understand the term free will. A common understanding of free will is that we can make our own decisions entirely free of any outside influence. This understanding of free will is not biblical, nor does it match reality. The Bible teaches that without Christ we are “dead in our trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1). If we are spiritually dead, surely that impacts our decision-making. John 6:44 says that, unless God draws, no one can come to Christ for salvation. If the decision whether to trust in Christ is impossible without God’s “interference,” our will is not “free.”

Our ability to make decisions is impacted by numerous factors, e.g., our sin nature, our upbringing, our intellect, our training/education, our biology, our psychology, etc. So, no, human beings do not truly have a free will. We have a will. We can make decisions. Biblically speaking, we have the responsibility to respond to what God has revealed to us, including His call to believe the gospel (John 1:12; 3:16; Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9–10; Revelation 22:17). But, again, our will is not truly free.

Predestination is a biblical doctrine. Free will is not. If the question is predestination vs. free will, predestination wins decisively, biblically speaking. If the question is predestination vs. will or predestination vs. responsibility, that is more difficult. Somehow, God is sovereign over who is saved, and, concurrently, we are genuinely responsible for our decisions related to salvation. In the Bible, God repeatedly calls on us to exercise our will and trust in Christ for salvation. How these two truths work together may be incomprehensible to us, but in the mind of God they make perfect sense.

>>15041237
>>15041300
it seems like you guys are arguing the same thing by saying we have will but it is limited, which seems obvious. are there any good resources for learning specifically about predestination in the Bible vs this limited will?

There is no logical reason to claim that if God knows what choices we are going to make that it means we are not free. It still means that the free choices we will make are free -- they are just known ahead of time by God. If we choose something different, then that choice will have been eternally known by God. Furthermore, this knowledge by God does not alter our nature in that it does not change what we are -- free to make choices. God's knowledge is necessarily complete and exhaustive because that is His nature, to know all things. In fact, since He has eternally known what all our free choices will be, He has ordained history to come to the conclusion that He wishes including and incorporating our choices into His divine plan: “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur," (Acts 4:27-28). Why? Because God always knows all things: "...God is greater than our heart, and knows all things," (1 John 3:20).

>>15041989
>God
uhm, why do you assume god exists? What is your logical foundation? In fact throughout this thread people seems to take his existence just for granted. This isn't proper logic you have to start from scratch.

>>15042250
everyone communicates using assumptions dude
you saying "this isn't proper logic" utilizes assumptions

>>15039123

>>15042280
Wrong, its B, retard.

>>15042267
oh yea how so?

Guys can we get back to discussing the bug please?

>>15042294
The proof is in front of your face, retard

>>15042502
Didnt even read your autistic fucking proof because its OBVIOUSLY FUCKING B and youre a retard if you cant realize it.

>>15042315
you assumed the validity of logic without laying out an argument for why you accept the validity of logic

>>15039135
Imagine being destined to be forced into hell for eternity, something out of your control, and call that God benevolent and merciful.

>>15039123
Nah we dont have it. Every thought which happen to you is recognized AS YOURS.
Determinism is right in the end.

Idk why people care about if their will is free anyway...

>>15039135
Cringe