/lit/ - Literature

>>15011464
Thought this was about conspiracy theorists.

>>15011464
Eco is a proto-redditor, a redditor before reddit, his opinions are irrelevant

>>15011538
The fuck you talking about? Il namo di rosa was based

>>15011538
a proto-redditor that redditors generally dont read. hmm yes this is a high iq thread indeed.

>>15011665
>Il namo di rosa
What?

Yea, I wouldn't place too much value on Eco

>>15011665
>Il namo di Rosa
Fucking redditor, learn Italian you disgusting filthy mutt
It's IL NOME DELLA ROSA
>>15011685
I don't know about what redditors read because I never used reddit in my life. I just use my intuition to detect inferior posters on 4cuan and use my reason to call them redditors.
Eco is a proto-redditor

>>15011538
Cope, pseud. Eco BTFO'd you.

>>15011956
Only redditors use the word pseud because they are obsessed by social standing, not even in the real world but in a community of "intellectuals" rejects

>>15011464
There’s nothing more cringe than cryptic texts. a person who cannot speak in the open about what they actually believe deserve to be sodomized by those who can.

>>15011999
>after almost 3000 years losers like you are still mad at Heraclitus (pbuh)
Delicious

>>15012010

>>15011538
>proto-redditor
don't you mean ur-redditor?

>>15012034
Heh, good one

>>15011999
Or, alternatively, burned at the stake. Which is what literally happened for centuries.
The occult is only "occult" because you could literally have died a horrible death just for studying it.

>>15011969
Cope harder, you're a moron, you'll never accomplish anything and nobody gives a fuck about your retarded gnostic interpretations of whatever the fuck. Eat shit.

>>15012065
Wah wah wah

As a wannabe esotericist/gnostlet I coped with this book by enjoying the narrative and language instead of seething over the subtext

>>15011899
A Talmudist undermining Tradition?

/pol/ is always right

Gnostlets always going on about "the world is artificial" bullshit. Maybe if you weren't such a pussy constantly larping or coping with larping then the world wouldn't seem like such a spectacle. It's always the biggest pseud imposter larpers lecturing us on the artificiality of reality, universalizing their larper psychological conditions

>>15012414
>enjoying the narrative
Your enjoyment is derived from a misunderstanding of the narrative. Cope

>>15011904
>I don't know about what redditors read because I never used reddit in my life.
Ah so you're coming right out and admitting you have no idea what you're talking about then. Well done. A normal lit poster.

>>15011904
>Fucking redditor, learn Italian you disgusting filthy mutt
Never. I'll larp as an illiterate peasant as much as I want.

>>15012617
Pathetic cope, seethe somewhere else for getting called out

>>15012634
How does it feel having no literary merit to your language or peole?

>Inb4 Dante
Tuscan dialect

>>15012470
That doesn’t even make sense. You’re an idiot.

>>15012682
How does that not make sense? The narrative satirized the thing you enjoy, so you should not have gotten satisfaction from the narrative

>>15012662
I'm not Italian retard

>>15011538
yeah, I bet your speculative fiction is llots better

>>15011904
>inferior posters on 4cuan
So...posters on 4chan.

>>15011969
That would make /lit/ reddit, since pseud is the go to insult here.

>>15012718
4chan is reddit.

>>15012697
Should not have, but did, because I can turn fire to ice.

>>15011464
Ignore the butthurt in this thread

It's not only a satire, that's the thing about Eco, he always operates on multiple levels at once

I am a freemason and after reading the book I actually had a mini-depression. It hits some nails on the head which otherwhise would go unnoticed. Believe me, Eco was close, VERY CLOSE to some things and just towards the end he cuts it purely into satire.

Those who have eyes to hear do so

>>15012722
Yes

>>15012786
>just towards the end he cuts it purely to satire

It was satire the whole time he just keeps his cards close to his chest to blow you the fuck out. I'm glad you had a mini depression but I'm sad that it didn't turn you away from the jew paganism you practice

>>15012786
What degree are you?

>>15012820
>it was satire the whole time
>NOOOOOO

>>15011464
Why are the Italian covers of Eco's books so much more kino than the rest?

>>15012820
To each his own. If not for Freemasonry a lot of what I loved about life and culture would have remained obscure to me.

The book had such an effect that while it "disenchanted" me, later I came to realize that what it made me went through was a necessary step in my as of before convinction. What was revealed as conditional became unconditional; I strongly believe that the problem is NOT with Freemasonry but with how well (or bad) it's members truly respect what they are taught.

>jew paganism
I'd give you credit here but it's not that simple. Freemasonry retains a lot of symbolism from an array of initiatory practices; confusing it with religion is highly dangerous - especially for it's adepts. If you studied it's concepts and truly believe that Freemasonry is judaism (not talking about /pol/ rambling), then I you imply automatically that neoplatonism, alchemy and egyptian mysticism sum up Judaism; which would kinda change the picture in the first place, would it not?

>>15012857
Rosecroix

>>15012463
The world is artificial?

>>15012820
>jew paganism
kind of like Chritianity

>>15011899
Doesn't he shits on Jews on The Prague Cemetary?

>>15012962
Very interesting take, can you elaborate on the unconditional to the conditional part?

If freemasonry is not a religion can you explain the worship of GAOTU and why the blue lodge promises heaven to initiates?

>>15011464
This would've been based if Eco were Catholic or any sort of Christian but he was a bugman atheist so instead it's kind of cringe.

>>15013004
No, the most "disagreeable character in all the history of literature" shits on the jews

Eco's words

As an esotericist, I enjoyed it. Part of esotericism is learning not to take yourself so serious. It's fun, the satire is good, but the fact that it is so well-done points out a deep sympathy for the subject that seems to have gone unnoticed by you, OP. Is The Name of the Rose anti-Catholic? Certainly not. Though there are Catholic baddies...

>>15013171
Satire that strawmanned, ignored, or disregarded the source would not be good satire. In order to sting Eco had to get it right

>>15013171
This. What's the expression? "You only roast the ones you love."

>>15012962
>Rosecroix
How many politicians have you blackmailed to make it that high

As far as I recall it's mainly about various syncretists which don't get mentioned on this board very much anyway, there's like one marginal mention of Evola, and no mention of Guenon (pbuh) whatsoever..

>>15013195
Guénon is irrelevant elsewhere. He's only a meme here.

>>15013195
What's so good about Guenon?

>>15012962
Was Eco right about rosicrucianism being a larp?

>>15013228
Everything religious was a larp for that guy. He approached religion from a symbolic and psychological point of view.

>>15013004
Yes, and not only jews, on high-ranks of freemasonry and other related movements as well. the troublesome part is that he says that only one character - the protagonist of that novel is not historical. And I find it very hard to counter Eco when he has read more books than a quarter of current day humanity.

>>15013053
What I wanted to say is that before I had a very "safe" faith in what I thought Freemasonry is and does; not only that but my whole life kinda hanged on some threads which I did not saw but felt as concrete as any foundation. After the book cut some of those threads I fell, and afterwards gathering myself again I saw what remained solid and what were dead strings. I guess when I say "unconditional" I refer to my faith, which paradoxically has nothing to do with Freemasonry directly. Which brings me to your second point

>>15013053
>worship of GAOTU
Freemasonry does not perform ANY type of active worship, nor does it request you do substitutie it to religion. It's the absolute contrary: religion/Faith in Divinity is required but not enforced.

The term "Grand Architect" is an attempt to de-personify and re-iterate in a larger, more encompassing scheme the concept of Divinity beyond religions references. Sure, if you see it exclusively through a dogmatic lens, you can see GOATU as the Demiurge of some other "mask" of Divinity, but from Freemasonry's pov, GOATU is a common ground of recognition of the Divine without imposing a concrete structure on it other than recognizing His role as Creator/Intelligent design. This corresponds to the Theistic frame which birthed Freemasonry back in the 18th Century; the "bias" if you wish for a Artizan-Creator is that of centuries past (medievalism) of which Freemasonry fed itself, not of Freemasonry itself.

>blue lodge promises heaven to initiates
no such thing. Whoever says this - even about later degrees - is either a conman or an irregular who practices some DIYS type of masonry. While you could argue that Ritualism and certain practices have common ground with mysticism, Freemasonry constatly delimits itself from promises of salvation; each man has a personal relationship with the Creator and his salvation is his soul quest, not that of Freemasonry.

As any organization, Freemasonry is made out of people - lots of them. And a lots of persons do a lot of stupid or off the mark things with stuff they are part of. I'd never blame my highschool for the fact that someone who studied there 30 years ago became a mass murderer.

>>15013171
this
>>15013181
you are taking it too far to suit your comfortable conception that it's all satire so you can easily dismiss a lot of the problems he's actually bringing into light. That's if those problems mean something to you in the first place

>>15012786
Owned esoyteric retard.

What's the difference between occultism and esotericism?

>>15013191
Sorry, but none. What you talking about is the profanation of Freemasonry, not everybody who's part of it actively shits on Freemasonry by briging in their mundane interests.

I am young, of no special condition or family and managed to enter just because I knocked. No I did not have sex with old men or with goats. Not sure about the US, but here in Europe there are a lot of people who, while some may hide profane reasonings, actually care about the principles and try to better themselves and others.

>>15013228
Yes and no.

Yes as you could argue *any* initiatory group can in some way or another, be a diluted form of some older, more authentic group. But this is the chain of history, you can apply this lens on any activity or art and conclude it's a larp. For Freemasonry Rosicrucianism is a thorny subject (sic) as for me at least it's clear that some form of Rosecrux Brotherhood existed and probably went underground only to disseminate in various forms which later became certain ritual degrees reconsolidated by Freemasonry. For the history of Rosicrucianism I would look at the Ismaili and certain branches of English FM

No - as Form can generate content.

>>15013339
Occultism is for edgy teenagers and manchildren. Esotericism is mostly the same but not entirely so.

>>15013284
>Freemasonry constantly delimits itself from promises of salvation
Now you are just lying. From the legend of the 3rd degree:
>Then, finally my brethren, let us imitate our Grand Master, Hiram Abiff,in his virtuous conduct, his unfeigned piety to God, and his inflexible fidelity to his trust;that, like him, we may welcome the grim tyrant, Death, and receive him as a kind messenger sent by our Supreme Grand Master, to translate us from this imperfect to that all-perfect, glorious, and celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides.

>>15013339
different cultural framing. occultism for movements or subgroups which are deemed somewhat unacceptable/obtuse by mainstream practices and seen even as dangerous and in need of "hiding"; esotericism on the other hand is a term of a more moderate stance. both are warped by historical, religious and social standpoints. today they are, as so many things, memed into mudiness

>>15013373
This explains nothing, though.
>>15013395
Fair enough.

>>15013363
If the Rosecrux brotherhood went underground, why would they resurface so openly as a degree of the Scottish rite? Did it not occur to you that the17th and 18th degrees might have no ties to rosicrucianism and just larp it?

>>15013393
Anon, you do know there isn t one sole Freemasonry? There are like thousands, some regular, other not so.

What ritual are you quoting?

>>15013445
>legend of the 3rd degree
I put it in plain english. Every Mason goes through the blue lodge therefore every Mason acknowledges they believe this by choosing to continue practicing freemasonry after completing the 3rd degree

>>15011665
Gr8 b8 m8

>>15013417
Of course it ocurred to me. What I was saying is that it resurfaced in name and concept by being gathered in the degrees of what only later became the SR. Of course it's not the same actual Rosucrucianism of the Late Middle Ages.

Freemasonry today is, by definition, an emulation. Just as the ancient initiates imitated the gods, now we imitate those initiates...

Freemasonry is not about what is missing, but about what can be saved

>>15013474
There are hundreds of rituals and in use. A few are accepted and practiced in regular masonry, others vary as they may.

I myself didn't have this speech which you posted from.. but I read a lot of rituals where a lot is off the rails

Sorry that you generalize us all

>>15012034
lmao

>>15011899
>reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee every tradtion must be abolished because is a gateway for fascism except for my precious Jewish
Heidegger was right Natsoc, blut and boden was a child play with what jews have done for millenias

>>15013530
I can only extrapolate from what I know. My intention is not to generalize. So you are saying explicitly that freemasonry in no way teaches a path to salvation? Forgive me if I'm wrong but that is what I concluded from what you said earlier

>>15013665
No worries. I myself have never seen Freemasonry infringe upon religion. Salvation is a personal quest depending on each's faith. I saw this written tens of times in approved masonic manuals and heard it at my initiation: freemssonry does not promise salvation; if you seek that you are in the wrong place.

What Freemasonry does is it takes a lot of symbolism and elements into it's rituals. The scope is, you can say, a lot less than salvation; it can be the re education and refinment of the human mind and soul in the attempt of erasing certain biases which make us behave negatively towards ourselves and others. "Vices", impfimted by living and assimilating judgments not of our own agency. It's not about erasing what you are, but cleaning what you are not (or do not want to be)

You can say FM creates a sort or archetypal union schema where the adepts by mimicking certain archetypes live through certain pieces of knowledge and thus assimilate them in ways other than pure abstraction. From here you can understand FM as operating on multiple levels, depending on the degree and capabilities of the individual: moralistic, intellectual, metaphorical, etc.

To propose a scheme of salvation would be to inter between man and God. That's a direct breach of the liberty of conciousness on which FM is based upon

I accept that a lot of rogue movements of FM have delved into the wrong places; that's why the guys who made the French Revolution are irregulars now, for example. But Regular FM has always tried (and many times failed to hold unity) to keep the propet limits. If they are not held, if the limits of what FM is and is not are not respected (such as the landmark that no religion or politics is allowed in FM, regardless of motif) then it's not FM anymore, it's a circle of interests using FM as a vehicle. Which sadly happens a lot, but does not change what FM is or should be

Sorry for the long post or if you're not that interested in these ramblings

>>15013879
>operating on multiple levels, depending on the degree and capability of the individuals
Obviously masonry is shrouded in allegory or whatever verbiage you use, but doesn't it hold that a low degree initiate, while unaware of the higher knowledge, is still complicit in the behavior of those higher than him by associating with the organization? How many times have you learned something contradictory as you rise through the degrees under the pretext that what you were taught before was sufficient for members of a lower level but is not the truth? Can what you were taught at your initiation really be considered the teachings of freemasonry if the upper levels hold to knowledge that is contradictory? What if you rise to the 19th degree and find out a hypothetical secret knowledge that 19th degree members of the Scottish rite do achieve salvation for the works they have done up to this point? (All of this based on the assumption that higher knowledge can contradict lower knowledge). If this were the case, could you deny that lower degree Mason's do not know the higher teaching of freemasonry [explicit] but they are still responsible for the teaching of freemasonry that they do not yet know[implicit]?

The multiple levels you are describing are in reality, falling platforms, and knowledge does not exist on multiple levels at a time; instead, as you climb to a higher level, the level beneath you ceases to exist.

All this to ask, does what you were taught your first months in freemasonry really hold up as the actual and legitimate teachings of freemasonry, except as a simple baseline?

>>15013879
Everything I know about freemasonry comes from christian former-masons who left the organization because they realized the teachings of freemasonry does not align with scripture. This leads me to believe that the heresy (to Christians) of freemasonry is not immediately apparent, and that 1st degree Masons are not introduced to the real teaching of masonry.

If that is true and what I said earlier applies, can you, as a rosecroix initiate, be certain that you are honestly aware of the teachings of the scottish rite? Couldn't the only people who really know what the scottish rite truly teaches be 33rd degree initiates?

I am clearly not initiated in the secret knowledge of the scottish rite, and have no desire to be based on what I do know about the organization, and I am certainly not trying to imply I know more than you do.

I would also like to thank you for entertaining this discussion. I was expecting a mason to be much more guarded.

>>15014158
I will answer you again based on my experience. I will also expound on my thoughts on the matter as I also at many times wondered about this.

FM is not a singular, homogenous body of knowledge. I see it is a compilation of ancient and more recent practices, fused toghether in a somewhat coherent (read symbolic) journey. I consider the Blue Lodge to represent FM in all aspects, with the 3rd (Master Mason) being clearly stated as the Highmost degree. Perfection rites (such as Scottish) are for me lateral journeys; as many other bodies represent various vehicles of knowledge and symbol. My argument for this is that all masons are equal on the 3rd; you can't compare oranges (33rd Scottish) with apples (90th degree York); it's self evident that they are not to be seen as higher limits as they infringe the principle of equality.

Until the 18th I have never encountered a concept (and I read all the degrees and assorted literature) where FM contradicts itself. If such a thing exists higher (let's say the 33rd) I would tell you that that would mean those degrees were somehow highjacked and turned into a self-agenda. I know the stories about Pike and Luciferianism, Eco talks about them clearly in Prague Cemetery. Again, if such a thing does exist I would see it as a deception and rebuke it as anti-masonic as it can get. Again, anything which infringes on the freedom of conciousness is anti-masonic by definition

I do not agree that multiple levels cannot exist ar once; that is the definition of a symbol. But the meanings never contradict, they complete each other. It's like a puzzle or a chain of communicating vesels. If they do not flow, if they contradict then it's not symbolism, it's veiled dogmatism. FM is the absolute opposite of dogma (or should be).

I also don't agree that (hypothetically) if lower degrees participate in an organisation which does shit at the top they are guilty/tainted as well. By that logic any citizen part of the US is doomed to hell already by his ID card

I am a Christian and my faith has only been enriched by joining FM. As an examlle, before FM i entered churches without understsnding what a Ritual actually is, what spiritusl aims symbols and iconography have beyond aesthetic contemplation. Metaphysically I was also concerned before joining about the compatibility between FM and Christianity; in time I understood better what type of positioning FM demands as to remain FM, and thus new spaces previously unseen appeared to me as freedom grounds for my faith to blossom - outside, but with the indirect help of FM. I can assure you that if one day FM will contradict my religious beliefs I will leave that place in a moment's wake not because I would choose faith over FM, but because that place would be Freemasonry no more.

A fun game of misdirection and red herrings is vital for an initiate to understand the freedom and solitude of any path to light.

93 93

>>15014374
Sounds like a lot of mental gymnastics by a man who is in a cult.

Read "The Master's Carpet, or Masonry and Baal-worship Identical" by Edmond Ronayne if you want the true deal with Masonry.
It's available online via the Grande Lodge of Colorado.

>>15014374
You mentioned previously that GAOTU is merely an image of the divine, in other words, an all encompassing name for God.
How can you rectify this with Christianity? Jesus said explicitly that no one goes to the father except through him. Freemasonry says that you worship Christ, and he worships Allah, but let's all call God GAOTU to unite us in brotherhood. It sounds all fine and good except that if whatever "higher power" you subscribe to is GAOTU, then all of those higher powers are the same thing under different names, when the scripture is very clear on the fact that the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, I AM, is not the same as Allah just under a different name. How can you rectify the fact that you are "recognizing the divine" by calling him GAOTU, and a muslim, hindu, Buddhist, and jew are also recognizing their divine by calling him GAOTU? If you want to worship God by calling him the great architect of the universe (which he of course is) that's one thing, but letting people of other religions join in and lump their gods in with God is explicitly anti-scripture


>>15014518
That wasn't me

>>15014561
Give me a rundown

>>15014476
What is this?

ONE FREEMASON SHITTING ON OP AND EVERYONE ITT
HOLY BASED

>>15014615

>>15012034
>Das Urredditor
Kek

>>15012786
>i'm a mason
>Believe me, Eco was close, VERY CLOSE to some things
If you can't articulate these 'pearls' in a plausibly deniable, yet non-inscrutable form for the vision pigs, perhaps they were cast before (YOU) undeservedly as well

>>15013284
>I'd never blame my highschool for the fact that someone who studied there 30 years ago became a mass murderer.
Midrashim on the animality of gentiles -- let's say, Palestinian goyim -- written 800 years ago have a genealogical provenance in state sponsored shootings of children in the Levant. Their fruits are known and schismatic to every living faith -- I'll just leave you with the knowledge that the atom bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (against military advisement) occurred on the anniversary of the Masons' expulsion from Imperial Japan

>>15014685
>USA
kek

>>15011685
the fact that you posit this as if it’s some kind of contradiction proves that your IQ is <105

>>15014711
>muh IQ
cope

heh you plebs will never know that hebrew is based upon the charge within a tortoid shape that gives creation to the elements

>>15014711
>the fact that you posit this as if it’s some kind of contradiction
It is though, and the guy responding to me literally admitted it. Reddit is a circlejerk; you can't be a proto-redditor if reddit doesn't even like you. You are retarded beyond repair.

>>15012463
>larp cope larp cope larp larp coping larp
What a tedious life you live.

>>15013171
I agree. Come to think of it, it looks like whoever made the second /pol/ reading chart probably had a good head on his shoulders.

>>15014754
Cope harder, larptard.

>>15015101
I think they're saying please read to give you perspective, not to introduce you to esotericism... a breadth of knowledge is needed to get anything out of Focault's Pendulum, it doesn't take the time to explain many things

>>15012463
cringe and bluepilled

>>15011538
lol at you thinking you're smarter than Eco. Dumbass

>>15013411
>This explains nothing, though.
Now you're getting it.

>>15015255
Are you saying hating gnosticism is cringe and bluepilled?

>>15014609
It's a common denominator, anon. No worship is done in lodges, again, each should take his faith and practice it separately. You can see masonic ritualism as a way to practice and better ouselves, not provide service unto God.

FM aknowledges through GOATU that there is ONE GOD, and countless understandings. The idea isn't to fuse your personal belief (Christian) with another brother's (let's say Islam) but to find thr common denominator and try to appreciate our somewhat relative unity. This doesn't mean that for me Jesus is no longer the Messiah or that I accept Muhammad as a prophet. FM is not perenialism, it is not religion. It recognizes that these subject are under the law of free will, and thus undiscussable. You will not find any debates about religion in any regular lodge.

Also as a note I don't believe a buddhist can be a regular FM if he truly practices buddhism and not some form of deism instead. FM explicitly requires it's adepts to believe in the existence of a Divine Principle and in the immortality of the human soul. Without these all that FM stands for would be empty words. It's ironical that while FM birthed the Enlightenment, today it's one of the last fortresses where atheism and materialism are shunned

To understand the mindset of FM you need just to try and put yourself in the place of another unlike you. Do you believe another human being will end in flames or should be persecuted just for having another spiritual linguistic, historical and conceptual framework other than yours? Maybe some saints truly existed in Sufism as well and taught unconditional love and compassion; would they be holy unto another god? GOATU is about professing empathy towards another. I will give you one final example: There is a tale about a man who was walking on the moutains in a terrible blizzard. Walking as he was he saw something through the weather which seemed a big stone. Nearing closer his eyes focused and he saw it was an animal. Arriving close to him he realized it was his Brother.

I'd imagine anyone with some reasoning skills would see it's a work of satire

>>15016735
>Also as a note I don't believe a buddhist can be a regular FM if he truly practices buddhism and not some form of deism instead. FM explicitly requires it's adepts to believe in the existence of a Divine Principle and in the immortality of the human soul. Without these all that FM stands for would be empty words. It's ironical that while FM birthed the Enlightenment, today it's one of the last fortresses where atheism and materialism are shunned
What bothers me about deism is that it is functionally atheist. It seems like a cheap way for an someone to become a FM when the one big requirement is to believe in a higher power, especially since deists (atheists) believe God does not participate in Creation. Also, many leaders of the French Revolution who were freemasons were deists, and the other leaders who weren't were atheists. And look where that got us? The Reign of Terror, nationalism, cpitalism, Marxism, imperialism, fascism, etc. Nothing good came out of the Enlightenment because it was spearheaded by atheists paying lip service to theism. The very same atheists who used Freemasonry for networking and pushing their own political agendas.

>>15012786
Why do you keep the metric system down?

>>15016844
I strongly agree with everything you said. When I wrote my post I first wrote 'Theism' but then felt the same thing you did and changed it to Deism, concious of this problem and as it's more honest to what is happening. I myself have very strong sentiments about crypto-atheism and how the requirement of faith is not dully tested in most lodges. But Deism occured as a complex specific to Western Europe where centuries of Catholicism and Protestantism generated the perception of an Absent God, so I guess the birth conditions of modern FM were as biased as anything human can be.

The problem with fringe atheists is that they parrot morals about love and god but in their hearts you can hear the void ringing. They are much more zelous than a true believer who might have humility and they end up turning forms absolute; "Ortopraxis" as it's called. If you read Mackey's books from almost 2 centuries ago you will see the same issue with hidden atheism and untruthful brothers was present since then.

The French Revolution and everything the Grand Orient did was as anti masonic as one could get. Dostoevski's Demons explains it even better than history. The systemic problem which even regular FM has with unmasonic interests is something no one can mend, as certain branches - especislly in the US - are long since the domain of powerloaders.

I consider the Enlightenment as the most hideous episode of modern history and I have a lot of brothers who deem as well, regardless if others choose to see it as masonry's greatest achievement. The proof that it was wrong is that the guys who did it (Grand Orient, Orient of Italy) are long since irregulars (not recognized anymore as brothers)

>>15016905
Regularity is not the same are inter-visitation rights, that's a common error and not a point of view; take a look at the Grand Loge de France, GLTSO, LNF all of them regular, but not with visitation rights with UGLE; even a few years ago, the lodges of Germany wanted to disrupt how recognition worked, because they saw how these institutions where of such high quality that they couldn't be left out.

Another thing is the debate of the GAOTU, now, I don't wanna dive into all the academic research there exist, but the idea that "atheism" was imposed in France is not that true, before the GOdF was formed, the idea of God in lodges was not so important, old documents shows us that, I'm sorry if this breaks some ideas, but many of the brothers of the 18th century all of Europe where super spiritual but rather bored aristocrats who wanted to do something to kill the time.

I recommend to you that you study research on the topic of FM made not by brothers (who maybe want to perpetuate some ideas and can do biased work) but by academics, there are many good journals, once you become used to reading old documents, rituals, you will find that it is quite different form the history you are being told on dinners, the rituals, etc.

There's this awesome book, that sadly is only on French and I really need to look at, it's probably the most well researched piece of the founding of the 1717 lodge trying to show the "spirit" of those who surround it, it was quite dislike by all Freemasons because it showed how many ideas of the era had no evidence on ancient documents. The book is "1717 l'Histoire volée des Francs-Maçons".

>>15011464
Exterminate all wannabe-schizo larpers.

>>15017675
Hi, this is off-topic to what you're talking about, but I have been interested in Free Masonry for a while. I looked into my local lodges and they all seemed like Men's Social Clubs rather than a place to learn and better understand symbolism and ritual. I also noticed you may have alluded to a difference in culture between European and American branches? That could be where the issue lies as I'm from Texas. Maybe my idea of what Masonry is is wrong. I'm just wondering how much actual study of ritual/symbolism is done and if my local lodges aren't practicing authentic Masonry then what can I do if I want to try to learn about these things myself? I know self-initiaion is an oxymoron, but I really really want to work towards a more deeper understanding of ritual and symbolism and try to connect to it in a more real way.

>>15018368
I'm not >>15017675

But the poster you referred to in content: >>15016905

>they all seemed like Men's Social Clubs rather than a place to learn and better understand symbolism and ritual
From my experience this happens in most places where people "live well" and thus don't focus on some more critical aspects of self-evolution. As I've said, FM is made of people and it really depends in what lodge you have the luck of entering. Entering anywhere should offer you an opening to other lodges as well; in time you will visit and be able to transfer as to be near brothers you feel are more akin where you are bound to encounter more experienced masons with a passion for the Craft. But it's important to get a proper start as well

>That could be where the issue lies as I'm from Texas
Quite the contrary; from my knowledge about TX is actually a very wide-spread ground for Freemasonry. There are a lot of important lodges there and many who do research and study work as well.

>difference in culture between European and American branches
Yes, the US has had FM since it was birthed by it and thus you have Freemasonry kind of embedded in the social fabric of the US to a point that it risks being practiced as a social club, as you said. In Europe both because it is newer in some places (Eastern Europe) and because it has a more elitistic nature (Western Europe) it's practiced a little more... spiritual? let's say. But I don't want to generalize, I just see the risk of FM being trivialized in countries where it is no longer something special (US, UK, etc)

>>15017675
Thank you kindly, I really appreciate your comment and advice. I know I have a personal nail against certain aspects of French FM, but even I visited a lot of them during my time in Paris. I would say FM is a lot more "alive" in France and the sheer number of quality esoteric studies I saw at the GOdF baffled me.

I still believe French FM was infiltrated by groups which used FM against it's own nature in certain events of history. But I guess that could be said about many other bodies as well..

I think I can still read french, I'll search that book. Cheers

>>15011464
Eco is based.
He also tried to warn people of false conspiracies that were hidden within conspiracies that were responsible for Italy's downfall.
His work heavily circles around the Years of Lead, and anyone that understands Italian history will know exactly what he is satirizing and will even have a shiver reach down their spine once they understand the grander implications. Not only is he satirizing pseudo-esotericists but he is satirizing Italian nature and Italy's general behavior after the Years of Lead. Although the books are still understandable even without knowing Italian history, there's more impact once you start seeing the patterns and references to the cycle of Italy's constant fuckup throughout his history.

>>15011538
>Proto-redditor
Dude, literally every Italian leftist hates him, the fuck are you on about? I literally knew a literal cuck that voted for the Five Star Movement that hated Eco's guts.

>>15013258
>He approached religion from a symbolic and psychological point of view.
As it should be.

>>15013080
Most of his personal interviews kinda leaned him towards agnostic moreso than Atheists, at least in the ones I read in original Italian.

>>15013083
That's because that character goes out of his way to falsify evidence and goes full schizo and is a pawn for a much greater group.
Italy's history is filled with these types of people, the far-right and the far-left during the Years of Lead were both manipulated by P2 which later took over as a Shadow Government.

>>15016735
>through GAOTU there is one god, and countless understandings
I'm sorry that you can't see what is right in front of your face...

>for you shall worship no other god, for theLord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God
Exodus 34:14
>I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God
Isaiah 35:5
>'Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.'"
Isaiah 44:8
>For this reason You are great, O Lord GOD; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
2 Samuel 7:22
>The scribe said to Him, "Right, Teacher; You have truly stated that HE IS ONE, AND THERE IS NO ONE ELSE BESIDES HIM;
Mark 12:32
>Yet I have been the LORD your God Since the land of Egypt; And you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no savior besides Me.
Hosea 13:4

I could go on

>>15019884
From "Workman Unashamed":
>Now imagine me standing in lodge with my head bowed in prayer between Brother Mohammed Bokhary and Brother Arjun Melwani. To neither of them is the Great Architect of the Universe perceived as theHoly Trinity. To Brother Bokhary He has been revealed asAllah; to Brother Melwani He is probably perceived asVishnu. Since I believe thatthere is only one God, I am confronted with three possibilities:
>They are praying tothe devilwhilst I am praying to God;They are praying tonothing, as their Gods do not exist;They are praying to thesame Godas I, yet their understanding of His nature is partly incomplete (as indeed is mine)
>It is without hesitation that I accept the third possibility..

—Christopher Haffner

If you really can't see the problem with lumping God together with others, I don't think there is anything else I can say to help you

>>15015191
Perhaps. But still, it's good to read something sobering to keep your head from going up in the clouds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUs27nDc5NI

>>15015546
Using meme buzzwords to define something that complex is not a sign of knowledge.

>>15019481
>As it should be.
Nah, because then it becomes meaningless and phony.

>>15011899
more like Umberto Echo

>>15020236
I disagree, I think it becomes more meaningful, of course spirituality is an aspect of it, but I think people do take some things too literally about it and I think analyzing it from a more symbolic perspective might lead to some enlightening discoveries.
For instance, I have the strong conviction that the Flood was just a metaphor for the Bronze Age Collapse/Sea People invasion.