/lit/ - Literature

it drops you in the middle of the shit instead of instroduce it to you from the sidelines. that might sound appealing but a lot of the time it is just inpenetrable nonsense, because that's the most you can really say about heaven

>>14970407
But isn't the point that once you do penetrate it, which zen priests say takes decades and decades, you achieved far more than a lifetime of ritual could give you?

I see as a reform of Mahayana, which had become a shitfest, and an attempt to return to the original spirit of Buddhism. Emphasis is on meditation, and offers a short path to Nirvana in this life, instead of countless aeons.

>>14970424
Came here to say this.
>>14970415
Indeed.
>>14970407
Don't be put off by the hippies.
>>14970390
Read pic related.

>>14970415
my understanding is that the breakthrough moment amounts to realizing that it's all a joke; by struggling with this shit you've kind of deconstructed meaning and life itself. You can struggle with stuff that seems meaningful or you can struggle to figure out the sound of one hand clapping (and get slapped by your master for getting it "wrong"), ultimately it's the same thing. the endpoint is realizing that you've largely been wasting your time. Basically I learned what I know about it from white people (mainly allan watts) and pop up books, and from trying to read the Blue Cliff Record which is a collection of zen stories/koans from way back in china.

>>14970424
>if only those stupid Chinese monks and their Pure Land Sutras understood REAL Buddhism like me

From my laymen perspective, it seems like Zen is just the shitposting version of Buddhism. You have zen masters calling their students retards for meditating and claiming the Buddha was a dumbass who smelled like shit.

>>14970449
Haha pretty finger

>>14970449
>the Buddha smelled like shit.
He WAS Indian...

>>14970460
my soul will never be so pure that i don't laugh at this shit :v/

Alright give me some zen practices to achieve nirvana by the time quarantine is over

>>14970495
*slaps cock*
Do you understand?

>>14970495
You can't achieve Nirvana by pursuing Nirvana according to Zen

>>14970495
Read Dogen's Shobogenzo

Practice Zazen

>>14970495
Wash your balls.

>>14970685
Whats the sound of one turkey slapping?

Chan buddhism > Zen buddhism

The best way to describe it in one sentence is that Zen is all about being spiritual but not religious. Zen has none of the metaphysical or theological beliefs that buddhism has.

>>14970495
*unzips penis*

Zen is the chillest kind, dude.

>>14971660
lel good bait my nigger

Zen is very easy to grasp: claim that everything is an illusion and always chose the path of least resistance. Sprinkle that will contemplation (whatever the heck that actually means) and voila! No one can ever call you out on your BS because, after all, everything's al illusion, right?

>>14970390
All monism and nondualism are trash. It's just exoticism.

t. was into Ch'an/Zen for 6-7+ years before dropping it for good

>>14972938
>t. person too stupid for monism and nondualism so he wanted easy answers and converted to Christianity

Zen is easy to grasp: claim that everything is an illusion and based on that always chose the path of least resistance. Sprinkle that with contemplation (whatever the heck that actually means) and voila! No one can ever call you out on your BS because, after all, everything's an illusion, right?

>>14972938
Some criticism of either to offer or point to? Where are you now?
>>14972973
He might not be. I've heard many people shit on all forms of monism and nondualism from a philosophical stance.

>>14972924

you missed the point hard. the 'llusion' is still very much real to everyone, you just aren't supposed to identify with it

>>14970390
Zen has nothing to do with Buddhism nor Dogen’s cult.

If you’re interested in Zen, the Gateless Gate is a solid place to start.

>>14973086
>nothing to do with Buddhism
Well that's a weird thing to say considering the mahayana influence, at the very least, is denied by no-one. Except you? Do you care to explain?

>>14970390
/6agtph6

>>14973103

I think this is a multi-pronged issue. No one seems to be able to provide a coherent definition of Buddhism or even ‘Mahayna’ so the entire utility of those terms in describing vastly different religions and philosophical systems across South and East Asia comes into question.

The second, and more important, discussion is the be made by Zen Masters themselves.

In neither the Gateless Gate, the Book of Serenity, or Blue Cliff Record do we find any Zen Master expressing endorsement of common Buddhist doctrines and practices. They also explicitly reject the basis of meditation worship that characterizes Dogen’s “Soto” religion.

Incidentally Soto is derived from the name of two Zen Masters Caoshan and Dongshan the latter of whom was famous for questioning sutra lecturers and to death.

If you’re interested in reading what Zen Masters themselves actually have to say about Zen(and how it has no commonalities with Buddhist doctrine) there is a pretty riveting community of discussion over at Reddit on /r/zen.

>>14973143
>r/zen
Ok I'll risk that, but that sounds like asking me to step in a pool of mud. Thanks though.

>>14973162

No one ever got clean by studying what these grumpy old men were saying...

>>14973143
Do Zen not share the four noble truths, monkhood with its vinaya rules, anatta, karma, the precepts for both monks and laypeople?
>If you’re interested in reading what Zen Masters themselves actually have to say about Zen there is a pretty riveting community of discussion over at Reddit on /r/zen.
lel are you saying the posters over at reddit are Zen masters?

>>14973207
>are you saying the posters over at reddit are Zen masters?
Yes.

>>14973207

>Do Zen not share the four noble truths, monkhood with its vinaya rules, anatta, karma, the precepts for both monks and laypeople?

No. Zen Masters explictely reject the cultivation of virtue, holy truths, or the doctrine of karma.

See: Linji, Huangbo, or Zhaozhou for a solid thrashing of Buddhism.

>lel are you saying the posters over at reddit are Zen masters?

No, I'm saying it is one of the only communities I know of where what Zen Masters said are discussed and where open questioning and challenging of people who claim to be enlightened is the norm.

>>14973218
>Yes.
That is unfortunate ;^( was really hoping you would prove Zen was not Buddhism because I like most about Buddhism except its excessive moralfagging and my limited experience of Zen seems to point that they have forsaken that part. But if its just accidental rather than an essential development of Zen then Zen is not much better than Buddhism.

Zen people are riddle Masters that try to point you to the truth. Rejecting this and that and that and this is just rejecting the outer form of it that everyone has become enslaved to. Of course like all systems people turn it into a religion and kill and trample it. after Enlightenment what can matter but to be and become in the world?

>>14973218
>>14973234
Ahh alright these were two different posters.
>Zen Masters explictely reject the cultivation of virtue, holy truths, or the doctrine of karma.
Based. Those parts of Mahayana have always seemed like "noble lies" to me and I've never found a decent explanation of why they should be important when insight and knowledge is what "saves" you, not action. And in a religion that espouses emptiness.

Finished "Under the Bodhi Tree" a few days ago which is by a Theravadin though but he definitely agreed that the orthodox view on rebirth and morality are lower teachings only meant to create incentives for good behavior.
>See: Linji, Huangbo, or Zhaozhou for a solid thrashing of Buddhism.
Thanks. I'll download them, already got the Gateless Gate and Blue cliff record downloaded from your last recommendation.

>>14973275

>>14973275

>A monk said, "It is said that 'The universal truth holds no truth.' - what does this mean?"

>Joshu said, "East, west, south, north."

>The monk asked, "What do you mean?"

>Joshu said, "Up, down, in every direction."

How could anyone turn this into a religion? Ha! Every direction! Nowhere to dwell!

On what rock could you build a church?

>>14973300
How about the fact that they were having dialogue? Now they made a group where they all hang out together like bros. I would hang out with people if their little Clubs didn't turn into horrible prisons after a while.

>>14973300
How about that everywhere is a religion? But no, people would rather make the world how it is. Capitalism is only so successful because it's just a bunch of zombies biting and devouring what they can. So the only point after enlightenment is to make better clubs in the world. Better ways of living.

>>14973325

Places can only turn into a prison if there's an authority and cells that prisoners put themselves in...

Zen Masters don't vest in themselves any authority. They haven't attained to or experienced anything special and don't offer people a doctrine or practice to chain themselves to for "enlightenment".

Here's another bit from Joshu:

>A monk asked, "What is ignorance?"

>Joshu said, "Why don't you ask about enlightenment?"

>The monk said, "What is enlightenment?"

>Joshu said, "It is the very same thing as ignorance."

>>14973332

Zen Masters aren't interested in making the world a better place.

>>14973086
Stop making Zen sound appealing. I'm already into bonsai. If I also get into Zen then people will think i'm a turbo weeb and make fun of me.

>>14972973
I also hate monotheism. Anything that involves a worship or absorption into an all-subsuming unitary one, whether that includes a kind of infinite potential before one's parents were born, I hate because it leads to antinomian sensibilities. I like either cosmological dualism or ditheism.
>>14972983
Reformed Zoroastrianism. I have sympathies for Gnosticism too like Manichaiesm. Reading the Gathas and Cologne-Mani Codex made me suspicious of nondual crap.

>>14973348
Can't blame them for that. look at what happened when the Japanese tried to make the world ”""""""better”"""""" Oh gee it was so nice when the Communists tried to make the world better. For the love of God humans stop making the world ”""""""better""""""""". Some good people are absolutely reprehensible. I despise their moralizing because they just use it as an excuse to do evil and to become hypocrites. Change yourself first.

>>14973332
Clubs can't save anyone. Salvation is for individuals, not collectives, which are only mind abstractions.

>>14973394
Well it gets boring at the top of the mountain when all you see are the frozen corpses that didn't make it. They are not very good company. It's too cold up here anyways and there ain't much oxygen.

the annoying thing about two Enlightened people talking to each other is that they have nothing to say to each other. it kind of feels awkward and then i have to try real hard to say something that's nice for them.

>>14973403
Nietzschr says you gotta come down and preach to the plebs

>>14973413
sounds more like autism

Addressing the theme of the claimed duality between ignorance and enlightenment Yongjia says:

>"The true nature of ignorance is the very nature of enlightenment; the empty body of illusions and projections is the very body of realities."

Once the illusory distinction of enlightenment and ignorance is done away with, whats the basis?

>>14973436
I mean, how could I expect you to be able to relate to me? Trust me, giving it all away will leave you Hollow and empty. I'm starting to see why zen speak is fun. Having fun is the true enlightenment.

i don't know anything about Buddhism, where should i start if i want to just dive into primary sources. i don't want an academic summation or defense.

>>14973465
This is one reason, out of many, I left Ch'an/Zen. The truth and lie cannot blur.

>>14971270
>Chan buddhism > Zen buddhism
Chan and Zen are both heterodox innovations, coming out of fake buddha quotes.
The purest is Hinayana/Theravada.

But none of them will save you in the end, only illuminate your mind a bit.

>>14973465
It's saying that we caused the ignorance and so ultimately it is part of the very nature of enlightenment. It's just the whole Maya thing again.

>>14973498

Zen Masters don't teach the blurring of truth and falsehood. The claim that there is enlightenment to be attained to 'by means of X', however, is totally rejected as bogus.

>>14973521
Read Platform Sutra. The border between truth and lie is considered indeterminate.

>>14973521
One does not simply obtain the uncreated light. God does not labor to be.

>>14973465
>Once the illusory distinction of enlightenment and ignorance is done away with, whats the basis?

>Once the illusory distinction of true and false, good and evil, clean and unclean, are done away with, whats the basis?

If your system presupposes a contradiction from the very start anything can follow and no one will benefit.

>>14973517

The nature of ignorance and enlightenment are both fundamentally empty. You don't need to be enlightened to anything.

>>14973522

Post up the segment. Also, the platform sutra has a lot of textual 'issues'; within 60 years Zen Masters are already talking about how it was significantly altered by Buddhists of various stripes to lend credence to their various doctrines.

>>14973525

Zen Masters aren't interested in theology.

>>14973529

What contradiction? They make it clear: there is no spiritual enlightenment to be attained to.

>>14973531
>it's all empty
Nihilism is trash.

>>14973531
One of the oldest versions of the Platform Sutra was discovered in a sealed cave. I do not think the 32 or 37 complementary properties Hui Neng listed was made up. Hui Neng's point is that lie and truth, good and evil, and so forth exist in a complementary and indeterminate relationship, originating from a source that encompassed both without division.
Also, I have memorized one verse from Diamond Sutra which gets to the heart of my issue:
"Since the possession of attributes is an illusion, Subhuti, and the possession of no attributes is no illusion, then by means of attributes that are no attributes, the Tathatgata can, indeed, be seen."
What they are arguing is that on a deeper level of "awakening", truth and lie have a kind of topsy-turvy or recursive relationship that blurs their distinctions.
I take issues with such views for more nuanced philosophical reasons.

>>14971270
I definitely agree with this. I like how Chan borrows more from Taoism. To me the Taoist meditation practices are waaaayyyyy better than the zen stuff. I feel like their meditation opens me up and makes me much more free. Zen is great but Chan and Taoism feel so much better.

>>14973531
>Zen Masters aren't interested in theology.
Neither is god, he already knows himself.

>>14973539
>They make it clear: there is no spiritual enlightenment to be attained to.
Is this an attempt to deny all metaphysical reality as such, including the absolute itself and our connection to it? Or are you saying that it is not something to "add" to yourself but discover?

To say there is the distinction between enlightenment and ignorance is illusory is to say a contradiction. The very word "illusory" presupposes a real distinction between the real and the unreal, the awake and the ignorant...The very statement eats itself. Try and expand it.

>>14973539
>They make it clear: there is no spiritual enlightenment to be attained to.
Is this an attempt to deny all metaphysical reality as such, including the absolute itself and our connection to it? Or are you saying that it is not something to "add" to yourself?

To say the distinction between enlightenment and ignorance is illusory is to say a contradiction. The very word "illusory" presupposes a real distinction between the real and the unreal, the point of view of the awake and the ignorant...The very statement eats itself. Like saying the distinction between true and false doesn't objectively exist.
Try and expand the thought because it's unclear.

>>14972848
I didn't mean that to insult Zen. If you look at Zen, it has no beleifs about the afterlife, about a supreme diety or higher power. It just concerns itself with making the practicioner enlightened. And i hate to be a reductionist but whenever you meditate, you're using the same parts of the brain that you use when you pray or contemplate the Christian God. Therefore, my description of Zen as the ultimate spiritual but not religious practice works at least for me. You can feel free to disagree.

>>14973541

Zen Masters reject the doctrine of Nihilism:

>If you go on to talk of mind, it too is neither something nor nothing; ultimately it is not you. The idea of something originally there now being absent, and the idea of something originally not there now being present, are views of nihilism and eternalism.

>>14973544

Like I said, within 60 years the text was radically altered so much so that Zen Masters draw attention to this and hardly quote from it for the next ~1200 years. When they discuss it they only mention a few elements of the thext.

1. Huineng was illiterate and hung out at the temple for a while

2. Poetry contest. Huineng won. Shenxiu lost

3. Huineng ran away up to the mountain. Ming chased after him.

>>14973560

No. They aren't interested in metaphysics.

>The very word "illusory" presupposes a real distinction between the real and the unreal, the awake and the ignorant...The very statement eats itself.

Zen Masters aren't interested in people 'awakening' to anything. They don't teach that we are afflicted with 'being asleep' and otherwise needing some kind of salvation.

>Some Zen Master: The nature of all living beings is pure, fundamentally unborn and indestructible. So this body and mind are illusory productions. In illusory projection there is no sin or merit."

>>14973560
Not him but whitehead said that final reality can only be explained by apparent contradictions. So for instance god is the world and the world is god. The truth and lie thing can also be explained metaphysically. If reality is minds and minds are subjective, if mind is a Creator like God then we can create lesser realities called illusions. But ultimately if we are united to God our lies are absorbed into God and transformed into truth. If you can't see how sometimes truth becomes a lie then you probably don't understand what misinterpretation means.

>>14973585
>Zen Masters reject the doctrine of Nihilism:
That's like saying rapists reject the doctrine of immorality. Okay. They are still guilty of it.


>Zen Masters aren't interested in people 'awakening' to anything.
It doesn't matter what they are interested in or teach because they are heretics and heterodox. The Buddha himself taught nirvana, which is metaphysical, and the path to its attainment.

>>14973599
>apparent contradictions.
Apparent contradiction isn't an actual contradiction, it still uses the appearance vs reality distinction, which is fine. Yes appearances can be deceiving, sure.
But if your system of thought is riddled with actual contradictions and actual nonsense (not simply appearances) like saying "there is no real difference between true and false, ignorance and enlightenment are identical" and things of that nature, then your system is false and eats itself.

>>14973601

Nihilism is characterized as the belief that life is 'meaningless'; Zen Masters aren't interested in the philosophical debate about the "meaning" of life or in the philosophical claim that "nothing in the world has real existence".
>It doesn't matter what they are interested in or teach because they are heretics and heterodox. The Buddha himself taught nirvana, which is metaphysical, and the path to its attainment.

Sure, to Buddhist Churches. Zen is entirely heretical which is why they tried lynching one of the Patriarchs, changing texts, and generally cry-babying about Zen Masters when their sutra lecturers, priests, and others encountered them.

Also, "The Buddha" was an illiterate who left no written records and the "Sutras" are things random people wrote centuries after to justify their claims of religious authority.

>>14973618
But what if all words fall short of describing reality?

>>14973636
>But what if all words fall short of describing reality?
Then that sentence itself would have no power to refute me. Either way I win.

>Master Yanguan asked a lecturer, "What scriptures and treatises have you plumbed?" He said, "The Flower Ornament scripture." Yanguan said, "How many reality realms are in the Flower Ornament scripture?" The lecturer said, "In sum there are four; in extension they are infinitely multiplied."
>Yanguan stood up his whisk and said, "Which type of reality realm is this contained in?" The lecturer was silent. Yanguan said, "To know by thinking and understand by cogitation is the livelihood of ghosts. A lone lamp under the sun in effect loses its radiance."

Zen: It's not about hunting for doctrines in sutras like a ghost.

>>14973625
>Zen Masters aren't interested in the philosophical debate about the "meaning" of life or in the philosophical claim that "nothing in the world has real existence".
De facto belief in nihilism, in emptiness and relativism is what makes them nihilistic. They don't have to defend it intellectually to be it. They don't defend anything intellectually, they just spit out contradictions and nihilism wrapped in aphorisms and haikus.

>. Zen is entirely heretical which is why they tried lynching one of the Patriarchs
Zen fags the eternal victims, lmao.

>>14973666

Zen Masters reject relativism as well. The fact you cannot provide a single quote from Zen Masters supporting your claims about them is telling...

>Zen fags the eternal victims, lmao.

Victims of who? Frightened Buddhists who have historically have had public meltdowns when questioned by Zen Masters?

>>14973585
Hui Neng lists about 36 or so "confrontations", which he argues exist in nondual relation. Pretty much every other Ch'an and Zen text describes oppositions as originating from each other. For example, he argues, "Darkness is not darkness by itself; because there is light there is darkness. That darkness is not darkness by itself is because light changes, becoming darkness, and with darkness light is revealed. They originate from each other. The thirty-six confrontations are also like this."
Huang Po and pretty much ever other Ch'an or Zen Buddhist also argue all duality collapse in awakening where no distinction between truth or lie exists. I take issue with this.

>>14973678

I mean...could you bust out some quotes?

>Huang Po and pretty much ever other Ch'an or Zen Buddhist also argue all duality collapse in awakening where no distinction between truth or lie exists. I take issue with this.

There isn't anything to awake to. You're originally awake. What's the problem?

From Linji:

>I say to you there is no buddha, no dharma, nothing to practice, nothing to enlighten to.
>Followers of the Way, your own present activities do not differ from those of the patriarch-buddhas.
>Do you want to know Manjusri? Your present functioning with never any aberration, unobstructed everywhere—this is the living Manjusri.

>>14973690
I did quote Yampolsky's translation after saying "argues". I have also read Red Pine's translation.
>There isn't anything to awake to. You're originally awake. What's the problem?
I disagree. A deceitful mind full of malice is not awake. It is not one with the sincere mind of compassion.
That quote from Linji touches upon my issue. It leads to antinomian sensibilities. A murderer or corrupt politician can use such justification for his ignoble actions. The act of engaging in torture could be argued as a manifestation of prajna-paramita.

>>14973707

>I did quote Yampolsky's translation after saying "argues". I have also read Red Pine's translation.

Like I said dude, Zen Masters don't quote the PS at all and we are all cautioned as to why by Huineng's Dharma heir Nanyang Huizhong:

>When I was traveling around I saw a lot of this type; recently they've become especially abundant. They gather groups of three to five hundred cloud gazers, saying this is the message of the Southern School[Zen], taking the Platform Scripture and altering it, adding confused drivel and excising what the sage meant, deluding followers.

>I disagree. A deceitful mind full of malice is not awake. It is not one with the sincere mind of compassion.

Zen Masters aren't interested in cultivating virtues or compassion or claiming that any activity is 'more Buddha' than any other.

Given that there is no fundamental basis for action, there isn't any room for "justification" of any particular action.

From Huangbo:

>We speak of their mercy and compassion as vast just because it is beyond causality. By mercy is really meant not conceiving of a Buddha to be enlightened, while compassion really means not conceiving of sentient beings to be delivered.

No one to be delivered from -sin- -avidya- -samsara-.

>>14973690
>no difference between the buddha and a common rapist enslaved by lust and ego
>no path will do anything for you, no practice possible, no enlightenment or ignorance
Ah, yes, the Yolo Vedantic Philosophy of plebs

>>14973754

If you're not interested in Zen and want to pretend believe things that they didn't, why post in this thread?

>>14973678
Is there any such thing as a lie? Does untruth exist? Think about this deeply. Does something which is untrue actually exist? Or is truth the only thing that exists? Everything is the truth. There is nothing but truth.

hol up, so what is the point of Zen? Seems people are saying you do not have to do anything to be enlightened. So if we're all enlightened already then why is Zen a thing?

>>14973748
The quote I gave does corroborate the other passages you share. I have issues with such nondual views. You are saying both the antidotes and poisons lack an underlying essence or fixed identity. It's similar to how Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj said there is no one that suffers when questioned about a genocide. Such nondual rhetoric is also common among occult circles such as the Frankist-Sabbateans.
In a way, I feel Ch'an and Zen Buddhists are kind of entering into a lobotomized and "empty" state of mind and privileging its "all-encompassing place" as primary compared to other states of mind.
Have you ever considered the possibility that one pole of a dualistic relation can overcome the other, such as the case of Empedocles? Such as an antidote banishing a poison? Or light banishing the darkness?

>>14973748
>Zen Masters aren't interested in cultivating virtues or compassion or claiming that any activity is 'more Buddha' than any other.
Stop speaking for them . You're literally spreading water-down nihilism and calling it Zen

>>14973777

It's a name for a family of people who won't shut up...and are famous for that.

Enlightenment isn't something that is 'claimed' or 'earned' in this family and isn't used as a basis for any authority.

It's demonstrated. See: The Gateless Gate if you want a taste.

>>14973784

No. Zen Masters don't say that medicine and poison doesn't exist. They reject he idea that we have a fundamental affliction we need to 'awake' from to and 'enlightened' state. It's as bogus as Christian 'original sin' doctrine.

Zen Masters reject the 'all is one' worship and 'nirvana lobotomy' that characterizes esoteric "non-dual" thought and cult-Buddhisms respectively.

>Have you ever considered the possibility that one pole of a dualistic relation can overcome the other, such as the case of Empedocles? Such as an antidote banishing a poison? Or light banishing the darkness?

Sure. Zen Masters reject the notion that such metaphors have and fundamental reality to them. They aren't interested in giving people doctrines to have faith in.

The mirror is already radiantly shining in every moment, to chase after wiping it clean is to delude oneself into thinking its dirty.

>>14973794

I provided quotes demonstrating this and how they reject various Buddhist doctrines.

You wanting to call this 'nihilism' is no more real than Christians wanting to call all non-Christians 'condemned to Hell'

More Linji:

>Make no mistake! If there were such a thing as religious practice it would all be just karma keeping you in the realm of birth and death. You said, 'I observe all the six rules and the ten thousand practices.' In my view all that sort of things is just creating karma."

>Followers of the Way, there are certain baldheads who turn all their efforts inward, seeking in this way to find some otherworldly truth. But they are completely mistaken! Seek the Buddha and you'll lose the Buddha. Seek the Way and you'll lose the Way. Seek the patriarchs and you'll lose the patriarchs.

>Followers of the Way, don't take the Buddha to be some ultimate goal. In my view he's more like the hole in a privy.

>>14973815
>I provided quotes demonstrating this and how they reject various Buddhist doctrines.
Clearly you need a zen master to actually teach you what is going on for a few years.

>>14973825

Zen Masters reject the doctrines of the phony Dogen & Hakuin priests teaching meditation-worship or 'staring at phrases' and calling it 'Zen'.

Zen Masters don't have any thing to teach:

>Huangbo replies, “I don’t say there is no Zen, only that there are no teachers.”

If you find someone who doesn't teach those doctrines and is interested in Zen, direct them my way...I've got a few questions.

>>14973815
>Zen Masters don't say that medicine and poison doesn't exist
I was referring to the three antidotes of wisdom, generosity, and and loving-kindness and the three poisons of delusion, greed, and hatred. I arguing their border is not indeterminate.

>>14973872
Drink too much water and you will die.

>>14973872

Zen masters aren't interested in cultivating the three antidotes or doing away with the three poisons. Neither have any fundamental reality or have anything to do with Enlightenment.

Why would you take medicine if you were never sick with a poison?

More Linji:

>As I see it, there's no Buddha, no living beings, no long ago, no now. If you want to get it, you've already got it. It's not something that requires time. There's no religious practice, no enlightenment, no getting anything, no missing out on anything.

>At no time is there any other Dharma than this. If anyone claims there is a Dharma superior to this, I say it must be a dream, a phantom.

>>14973898
They have a fundamental reality and a definite, determinate border.
>Zen masters aren't interested in cultivating the three antidotes or doing away with the three poisons
Hence why I stressed the antinomian tendencies in such a tradition bother me. It reminds me of one weird small Gnostic school I read about which involved practitioners engaging in transgressive acts. It was believed that such actions do not tarnish one's soul. It is similar to how Zen Buddhists say one's original nature is never tainted. I disagree.
>Neither have any fundamental reality or have anything to do with Enlightenment.
Older Buddhism had a vertical cosmology where the antidotes are naturally closer and more aligned with Enlightenment. It is divorced from the poison. Ch'an and Zen are adharma because they blur the line between poison and antidote.
>Why would you take medicine if you were never sick with a poison?
You are arguing both poison and antidote are in essence a "pharmakon" whereby both interpenetrate one another; it also refers to the undifferentiated state prior to production of poison and antidote.
Anyways, I do not accept such an approach or "focus". The goal is to have the antidote banish the poison.

>>14973784
>It's similar to how Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj said there is no one that suffers when questioned about a genocide.
It's not a problem when ontological non-dualists like Vedantists such as Nisargadatta Maharaj say this instead of epistemic non-dualists like Madhyamaka and related Buddhist thought, because the ontological non-dualist actually admits the existence of a higher reality transcending illusion whereby the consciousness that appeared to be suffering isn't actually suffering but instead is safe and untouched forever abiding as eternal bliss but the epistemic non-dualist Buddhist does not admit any such absolute reality different from our embodied experience and instead says that the absolute reality Nirvana is non-different from Samsara and that we cover up and falsify the former with conceptualization

>>14973927

Disagree with your assessment that Zen Masters encourage cultivating "transgressive" acts. They reject cultivation of any practices as not what they're interested in.

Zen Masters say there is no antidote, no poison, no virus. Even saying we are 'fundamentally healthy' is to miss the mark.

That is what it puts it at odds with every religion ever.

Yunmen has this to say, "Yun Men, teaching his community, said, "Medicine and disease subdue each other: the whole earth is medicine; what is your self?""

They seem to me to be expressing the Ultimate Reality. Just remember that there are plenty of larpers. They pretend they see when they see nothing and regurgitate the things that they are told.

>>14973945
I see your point, but if there is a higher-reality of blissful consciousness, isn't there a lower-reality of malicious consciousness? The world could be explained as being produced by a conflict or tension of both. I am interested to hear your response in regards to this.

>>14973914
Yea, the words “religious practice”, “enlightenment”, “getting anything” and so on are inadequate to describe reality.

If Zen was really as nihilistic and subjective as people here are saying, why aren’t there more serial killer zen monks?

All of these things (sutras, practice, etc.) are useful but they just point to the moon reflecting off a lake. You have to look at the moon yourself and no amount of words or concepts will do it for you. The monks are trying to jar people out of relying on concepts by making paradoxes and busting lip.

Bodhidharma’s Bloodstream Sermon clears most of this up.

>>14973964
>but if there is a higher-reality of blissful consciousness, isn't there a lower-reality of malicious consciousness? The world could be explained as being produced by a conflict or tension of both.
The perspective of the teachings Sri Nisargadatta is speaking from would say that that the latter isn't actually a reality and only seems to be one until the former is realized; and that things which are unreal qua being unreal are unable to participate in any sort of causal relation with that which is real as this blissful consciousness is completely unattached and unaffected by anything and that the only association which can be appear to persist between it and the unreal until the latter is sublated is that it is the eternally enduring conscious reality and basis upon which the unreal is able to falsely appear as real. I am aware of your philosophical commitment to dualism, but I don't think in this case it can be fully reconciled with him, I was only pointing out why for the ontological non-dualist such statements have a different context.

>>14970407
>>14970424
>>14970449
>>14970740
>>14973234
zen is still part of mayahana, so still a commentary to some abidhamma, so still an hinduist interpretation of buddhism with brhaman read as Tathagatagarbha

also, said that they do not value scriptures, but ends up creating lots of scripture and rituals just like the hinds.

>>14973516
>The purest is Theravada
lol

>The purest is Hinayana/Theravada.
Of course.

>>14974434
zen/chan are the mormonism of Christianity.

>The purest is Hinayana/Theravada.
Of course.

>>14974434
zen/chan are the mormonism of Buddhism.

>>14974434
Zen is "part of" mayahana like Christianity is a part of zoroastrianism. When will butt blasted Therevada fags let it go?

person supporting zen sounds like UG and has reddit spacing

https://discord.gg/FFwRXKq

>>14974724
most Buddhists on /lit/ came here from reddit

>>14973250
>excessive moralfagging
Leftwinger detected.

>>14970449
So they are right

>>14973470
I'm enlightened.

If you're also enlightened, would you like to 69 sometime?

>>14974949
Unfortunately my PP froze and broke off on the way up.

everything I read here is bullshit
you are all hyperstimulated by media bombardment
you all have this hideous greed of false knowledge to posture with
look how you all throw around meaningless names, not explaining anything, stringing together blithering nonsense so you have an excuse to use your fancy words
I sense many niggerized leftist abominations here
fuck you, you are retarded, you have no real language but you are so desperate to spew noise
if you want to understand anything you should start by cutting your stupid tongue out of your retarded mind, it possesses you
it would be good to slaughter most all of you

https://terebess.hu/zen/UnfetteredMind.pdf

You have to listen to learn
You can't hate yourself, like having a constant desire to change your life
You were assembled from many pieces that were selected according to a method and purpose
You have to trace this process
You have to observe your own mind and deduce the substance of instinct, the original mind, and the substance of purpose, the true mind, distinguishing these from compulsion, the will forced on you by others or by what might be called misfortune.
You will never succeed with a thousand bonfires each burning away at your mind, the memory of every excitement, the lust for more, put them out

>>14975132
Shut the fuck up schizoposter. Never deem yourself worthy to post in my threads again.

>>14974434

Zen Maters reject this entirely. They reject the doctrines that form the basis of Buddhist or Hindu thought.

They aren't interested in such doctrines as: karma, cultivation of virtue, atman, anatman, Brahman, samsara, etc.

Anyways, more reddit spacing from me; here's another famous Zen Master for discussion. Incidentally one that Dogen openly expressed hatred for.

>A monk asked Yunmen, "What is talk transcending the buddhas and patriarchs?" >Yunmen said, "Sesame Cake."

I wonder what Alan Watts would have made of the world today, the man had oodles of charm but he was basically a hippy version of the Randian solipsist in creed

>>14975584
he was also an alcoholic who cheated on his wife with gullible hippie students and his philosophy is basically preparation to MKULTRA western liberals

>>14975584
he would be the same: a coomer who orbit whores and made whores feel spiritual by posting shallow mottos on facebook

>>14975132
This is pretty good buddhist advice.

>>14975237
Only retards would assume this is schizo

>>14975622
>made whores feel spiritual by posting shallow mottos on facebook
Delet this

>>14975584
>>14975593
>>14975622
Is John McAfee the reincarnation of Alan Watts for the digital age?

From Xuefeng & Dongshan.

>Once, when Hsüeh-feng was carrying a bundle of firewood, he arrived in front of the Master and threw the bundle down.
>"How heavy is it?" asked the Master.
>"There is no one on earth who could lift it," replied Hsüeh-feng.
>"Then how did it get here?" asked the Master.
>Hsüeh-feng said nothing.

>>14975900
they are both scamming low iqs, so yes