/lit/ - Literature

Marcus is so freaking redpilled bros, I recently came to /lit/ (usually just browse /fit/ and /sci/) but the stoics have definitely been my favourites so far

>Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.

>>14971881
Define "good life."

>>14971881
>If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by

>>14971936
>>14971920
Got an argument?

Reminder, opium use makes midwit seethe because it is whipping boy because they themselves are addicted to vices like lust and avarice. Opiate use is a slap on the wrist compared to innate moral failings.

>>14971920
kek just shop soi face onto marcus at this point

>>14971978
Faith is a virtue and you burn for eternity if you lack it

>>14972037
So no

>judging "le Gods" as you would judge a common man
Peak pleb. God can't be unjust.

>>14972051
Depends on Marcus' definition of "just" and "unjust".

>>14972037
Refuted by Marc's second sentence.

>>14971881
Jesus retroactively refuted him. No one is good but the Father

>>14972064
Reread Aurl Marc's sentences.

>>14971881
>...but you will have lived a noble life >>14971881
>that will live on in the memories of your loved ones
isn’t this the same guy that said we’ll all be forgotten eventually?
>unjust gods
even if they are “unjust” (by whose standards?), that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t deny them and suffer because of it.

We know exactly what the concept God means now. And it means future Overmen who will cause the Big Crunch, and thus the ensuing Big Bang. Read real philosophers: http://orgyofthewill.net/

>>14972056
He's obviously judging them as he would've judged his pals. "Why won't you let me in if a I was a VIRTUOUS man?? waaa waaa" Come the fuck on.

>>14972011
Nice job preemptively blocking the midwits path. They are afraid to even comment with their usual
>muh marky bad cause opium dude

>>14971881
>>14972058
If they are unjust then you should try to bribe them throught faith, to avoid punishmen.

>>14972119
muh virtuous rebellion

>>14972037
This is so hilariously at odds with anything that Europeans conceived of before Christianity that it always makes me laugh when Christians try to pretend Christianity is European and/or that x Greek philosopher was a proto-Christian.

Why do they hate Marcus so? Is it because they fear taking the leap of confidence in their own integrity?
They refuse to see they are all they need to be virtuous, and through that happy

>>14972163
>being happy
cringe

Why is Marcus Aurelius spammed so fucking much here anyway? He really isn't that interesting.

>>14972163
Unvirturous people hate the virtuous. Their soul is as it were turned upside down. They have no moral compass and only justify things by their sensual appetites. They usually nitpick things of minor importance to assert their false sense of righteousness. This is why the porn addict fornicator foams with rage when he sees Marcus and says DUDE HE USED OPIUM WHOAH.... IM NOT LIKE THAT.

>>14972163
People on this board only like theoretical philosophy. Philosophy that you can use to improve yourself with is for normies.

>>14972188
the R*ddit tourists.

>>14972149
lmao Socrates himself attributed virtue to faith in Meno. Anyone who understands the limits of human reason can see it

>>14972198
all philosophy is theoretical

>>14972198
Stoicism does not improve your standing in the world. It makes you an object of contempt and ridicule to the masses.

>>14972213
>your standing in the world
This is out of your control.
>It makes you an object of contempt and ridicule to the masses.
“It never ceases to amaze me: we all love ourselves more than other people, but care more about their opinion than our own. If a god appeared to us—or a wise human being, even—and prohibited us from concealing our thoughts or imagining anything without immediately shouting it out, we wouldn’t make it through a single day. That’s how much we value other people’s opinions—instead of our own.” -Meditations12.4

>>14972236
midwit quote. We hide our opinions from others because we don’t want to piss them off and get punished for it

>>14971881
I don't care about the memory of my loved ones. I care about what I can get myself, me and I, right here and now while I'm alive.
There. Refuted. That was easy.

But really, I don't think you should need all that logicing to live a good life. A good life is desirable simply by definition of the word 'good'.
Good life: good.
Bad life: bad.

Neutral life: still not good.

>>14972259
But what IS good? How do you define it

>Marcus Antonius (14 January 83 BC – 1 August 30 BC), commonly known in English as Mark Antony or Anthony
Why does English insist on butchering all the classical names?

>>14972285
That was not the question. That was not what was requested by op. And that was not addressed by op's image either.

>>14972314
Yeah, but im not op, and i'd like to know your take on this.

>>14972303
Wrong Marcus retard.

>>14972303
All this marcus knew was how to fuck and waste romes gold

>>14971881
He never said that

>>14972351
Yeah I know, I had to look up which one was the emperor. My gripe still stands.

>>14972213
If virtue and self-sufficiency brings your contempt, ridicule and does not improve your standing in the world then maybe you should change scenery.

>>14972342
Well, it's a mutch taller ask than op's.

Try to live as fulfillingly as possible, ideal helping other do the same, and at the very least don't hinder others of doing the same.

I got warned for starting a thread on stoicism this morning. I truly don't understand.

Anyway, this is what I have been reading:

>Discourses by Epictetus
>Meditations by Marcus Aurelius
>Dialogues and Essays by Seneca

I'm doing the "big three". I'm on the Seneca essays now.

This stuff is absolutely changing the way my brain works and thinks about life. I don't just read this, I actively write down striking passages, and then apply my life experiences to the passages.

The number one thing I'm learning is to not be such a selfish asshole all the time. That if I listen to people and connect with them instead of thinking about what I want and making judgements on how their character affects my goals, then I actually learn who they are end up liking them for who they are.

>>14971881
The fact that no one has pointed out that this is a fake quote tells you everything you need to know about /lit/.

>>14972441
Five posts above you.

>>14972037
You've come to that conclusion based off what?

>>14972051
>judging "le Gods" as you would judge a common man
Why not?

Define "good life".
Hard mode: Don't use "god" in your definition.

>>14971920
Oh man he replied with a soijak, I have no way of responding now.

>>14972119
Cuckold.

>>14972544
Do something worthwhile. Don't be a dick.

>>14972563
Eternity is long time, so its best to avoid beong punished for that long

>>14972544
Living in the flow and according to the physis

>>14972572
An unjust god would sentence you to etarnal punishment anyway, for the lulz.

Presupposes that you would not worship an "unjust" god. I could just as easily say that we are not capable of perceiving what is truly just and unjust according to God because we are humans.

>>14972572
Pascal's wager logic ends with you kowtowing to literally anyone who threatens you with incomprehensible suffering because they *might* be right. It's a tool of control and nothing more.

>>14972583
True, but in case of unjust god trying to appease him would still give your best shot on not getting punished.

>>14972597
Just like all religion. And jet i wouldn't take my chances on this one

>>14972014
lol. somebody do it.

>>14972594
>we are not capable of perceiving what is truly just and unjust according to God because we are humans.
I think that was the point. You don't need to know the disposition of a god in order to live a good life.

>>14972544
That life a virtuous man would not regret after having lived it.

>>14972674
But what is virtue?

>>14972642
Then it's self-defeating. It presupposes that an "unjust" God is not worth worshipping.

>>14972624
I would think in case of an unjust god the best way to avoid punishment is to justly deserve it.

>>14972680
What is virtuous is to imitate the gods. Meaning to have as few needs as possible and to do good for the greatest number of people possible.

>>14971921
/thread

>>14972706
More like it stipulates that an unjust god is not worth worshiping, by definition.

>>14972756
lol by what definition? are you afraid to explain why one should not worship an unjust god?

>>14972756
Which is an unjustified presupposition.

>>14972772
By definition of 'unjust'

>>14972795
LMAO

>>14972795
Babby tier argumentation.

>>14972756
>>14972795
>you share a board with this brainlet

>>14971881
Since it is possible that thou mayest depart from life this very moment, regulate every act and thought accordingly. But to go away from among men, if there are gods, is not a thing to be afraid of, for the gods will not involve thee in evil; but if indeed they do not exist, or if they have no concern about human affairs, what is it to me to live in a universe devoid of gods or devoid of Providence? But in truth they do exist, and they do care for human things, and they have put all the means in man's power to enable him not to fall into real evils. And as to the rest, if there was anything evil, they would have provided for this also, that it should be altogether in a man's power not to fall into it.

>>14972706
It presupposes that neither an unjust God nor a just God is worth worshiping as an unjust God would not do justice to your virtue whereas a just God would but then it is your virtue that is the key and God becomes secondary to the good/noble/virtuous life.

>>14972427
That's good. This will allow you greater understanding of everything, and is possibly necessary for artmaking and deep thinking.

>>14971881
>Still. Not. Refuted.
lol

>You desire to LIVE "according to Nature"? Oh, you noble Stoics, what fraud of words! Imagine to yourselves a being like Nature, boundlessly extravagant, boundlessly indifferent, without purpose or consideration, without pity or justice, at once fruitful and barren and uncertain: imagine to yourselves INDIFFERENCE as a power--how COULD you live in accordance with such indifference? To live--is not that just endeavoring to be otherwise than this Nature? Is not living valuing, preferring, being unjust, being limited, endeavouring to be different? And granted that your imperative, "living according to Nature," means actually the same as "living according to life"--how could you do DIFFERENTLY? Why should you make a principle out of what you yourselves are, and must be? In reality, however, it is quite otherwise with you: while you pretend to read with rapture the canon of your law in Nature, you want something quite the contrary, you extraordinary stage-players and self-deluders! In your pride you wish to dictate your morals and ideals to Nature, to Nature herself, and to incorporate them therein; you insist that it shall be Nature "according to the Stoa," and would like everything to be made after your own image, as a vast, eternal glorification and generalism of Stoicism! With all your love for truth, you have forced yourselves so long, so persistently, and with such hypnotic rigidity to see Nature FALSELY, that is to say, Stoically, that you are no longer able to see it otherwise-- and to crown all, some unfathomable superciliousness gives you the Bedlamite hope that BECAUSE you are able to tyrannize over yourselves--Stoicism is self-tyranny--Nature will also allow herself to be tyrannized over: is not the Stoic a PART of Nature? . . . But this is an old and everlasting story: what happened in old times with the Stoics still happens today, as soon as ever a philosophy begins to believe in itself. It always creates the world in its own image; it cannot do otherwise; philosophy is this tyrannical impulse itself, the most spiritual Will to Power, the will to "creation of the world," the will to the causa prima.

>>14971881
It's still not an argument, it's just a denial of the argument

>>14971920
live laugh love you fool

>>14971920

>>14972544
That's relative to what one considers to be good. Some things are proven to improve your life, but that doesn't answer your question anyways

>>14971916
I hope you can transcend the /midwit you are

>>14971881
It's pretty good but I just noticed that atheists aren't usually interested in living a noble life, to the point we could call atheism degeneration.
Though religious devotion is used to mask the lack of virtue, by all religions, including communism.

>>14972149
We aren't that noble of a race; whilst the jews may reject and hate moral good and spirit to the point of murder, so too do Europeans reject wisdom...
Truly a match made on earth.

>>14973243
Gaia is not indifferent.

That's what Paul says in Romans 2 and James in his second letter.

>>14972427
Simplicius Commentary on Epictetus

>>14971881

>>14971881
>Live a good life
Indeed!

>>14971916
nice b8

>>14972037
Sorry but that can mean two things: sinners who have faith will go to heaven, or that good people who didn't have any faith will go to hell, not completely good people, but 90% of the population. Do you geniuely belive billions of people will go to hell and only millions will go to heaven?

>>14972037
You sound very middle eastern. Hmmm...

>>14972213
>It makes you an object of contempt and ridicule to the masses.

This is your life in burger land. I pity you

>>14972037
>t. filthy protestant

>>14971881

This quote just perfectly displays why Meditations is midwit central not that it isn't easy to tell by the average person who likes it

Marcus Aurelius is literally just saying to live your whole life based on what people and gods that may or may not exist think of you so you can leave a legacy or get into heaven maybe
Only a midwit or worse would even be concerned with these things

>>14971881
Marc never said that. At least it's not a picture of Epictetus or Caracalla this time.

>>14975384
>Only a midwit or worse would even be concerned with these things
Only a midwit would be concerned with ultimate questions and the meaning of life, why?

>>14971921
Being part of the Whole and fulfilling your task within it, living for your purpose as a human being, ofcourse.

>>14975418
>Being part of the Whole and fulfilling your task within it, living for your purpose as a human being, ofcourse.
according to what standard? whatever feels pleasant to you?

>>14972037
Remember in Dante's Paradiso where a Stacy entered heaven because she was better able to practice human love more than her violent and hate filled brother?

Yeah, I know you don't dickhead.

>>14975425
Universal standard. It is all about living up to whatever purpose you were made for. Pleasantries are not of importance here.

I'm a compulsive bitter person, a liar and /lit/ shitposter, what is the best religion I should choose to ensure I will go to heaven?

>>14972188
It's really fucking cool that we have the personal thoughts of a Roman Emperor available to read, and furthermore he is a deeply thoughtful and relatable man on top of this. It's much like finding out a celebrity is actually really intelligent and has interesting things to say. Of course, you have to move on past him at some point, but he's an amazing starting point. The context around his writing interests people, who then find that it contains very practical and immediately useful philosophical advice. He simultaneously interests people in philosophy and demonstrates it's value to anyone who is not already well read. And it's easy to read.

It should not be a surprise he is brought up constantly. People newly interested in philosophy start with him, shit posters who spend too much time on lit and don't actually read anymore stop with him.

>>14975410

Only a midwit thinks those things are the ultimate questions or the meaning of life

But the thing is even then Aurelius is not really concerned about answering those questions so much as he seems to be concerned about just hedging his bets and giving really generic advice using shallow logic like yeah just live a good life and everything will work out
I mean come on I could probably get more actionable advice from a kid

>>14975436
Rasta

>>14975501
>Only a midwit thinks those things are the ultimate questions or the meaning of life
I don't understand how the highest things we can conceive of are 'midwit' tier, as opposed to what? Pleasure seeking, doing science experiments and economics? What are you proposing is higher than God and the beauty of virtue?

>>14975429
>It is all about living up to whatever purpose you were made for.
From where does one derive the knowledge of what one is made for?

>>14975656
Why is a bee attracted to a flower?
Why does a bird make a nest?

>>14975680
Okay, so having sex then.

>>14971920
>>14972014

>>14971921
What good would that do, since Aurelius says nothing about a good life?

>>14972247
So your solution is to just hold your head down and assimilate? How is that anything other than the path of the pleb?

>>14972412
That's what marcus is saying here. He brings up the memory to assuage theist who worry about death

>gods

>>14973243
This guy types like a faggot

>>14971881
Hold on a second. I can't for the life of me remember this passage from Meditations. Also, it doesn't seem like something he would say. Especially "If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones." I feel like I can remember the opposite being true. Everyone dies and will eventually be forgotten, because those who remember will also die and be forgotten. Didn't he believe that you should be a noble and just person because that is literally the purpose of being human? To follow the logos?

TODAY I LEARNED:
80% of /lit/ hasn't actually read marcus aurelius and can't spot a fake quote

>>14971921
Learn yourself, learn the limits to your own ability. Think, learn to deny yourself instant gratification as an intelligent being, just like a better chess programs calculates more moves ahead. Find which one of your inborn desires is the most parched one, be ambitious enough to satisfy it, yet like I mentioned earlier, control that ambition to fit your own physical factors, don't desire what you absolutely can't possess, like absolute power, or infinite unrequited love. Balance yourself, moderation is key, and most of the people here aren't intelligent enough to suffer in loneliness, and should be thankful for that.

>>14972011
Opium is an outside influence, your own desires and pleasures are inborn. Don't fix what ain't broke.

>>14975449
>It's really fucking cool that we have the personal thoughts of a Roman Emperor available to read, and furthermore he is a deeply thoughtful and relatable man on top of this

The cucks of this board rather prefer some masturbating thought modern philosophy with 0 practical wisdom that bring you nothing but melancholy and solitude.

>>14975110
baaaaaaaaased

>>14972247
Do you have some fetish for being a cell in an organism?

>>14972544
Be balanced, moderate yourself.

>>14975771
holy shit it actually amazes me that brainlets like you think this constitutes a valid rebuttal

>>14971881
>If they are unjust you should not want to worship them
That is nice and all, but not all of us are roman emperors who get to believe we will become a god when we die.

>>14976122
If you weren't so easily triggered by a fucking meme on 4channel there wouldn't be so many people having so much fun baiting (You)

>>14975550
Teaching others the worth of virtue is more beautiful, instead of condemning them for not having it. No one is born virtuous, it must be conditioned, that is why I have a dislike for religious preachers. It is virtuous to teach virtue, yet they ignore other people and ridicule, antagonize or patronize most of them simply for having a different upbringing.

>>14975436
Whichever one you like the most.

>>14971881
> God(s)
> Unjust
> I alone can know what is virtuous
> Live by, judge on your own how you live by

Marcus is well intended, but he is not spiritually right, but earthly right, conditional on his good intentions.

His whole practical solution has the opposite result on someone with evil intentions. Though he attempts to argue on a philosophical level and thus he is wrong, this is not bad advice in its core if you are truthful.

>>14971881
>good life

Is incoherent outside religious devotion. Morality can only consistently exist with an objective assumption like God, giving a universal consensus.

>>14971921
Based.

>>14971881
>if
Bible refutes it. Isaiah 46:9-10. Aurelius is saying decent stuff but people tried to destroy the bible, made it illegal to read it, illegal to translate it and yet it's the biggest book of all time available in thousands of languages

>>14971881
If people actually read Meditations, or knew of Marcus Aurelius' view on life, they would be quick to realize that this quote does not align with his beliefs at all. In other words, he never said that shit.

>>14976327
>>14975771
>>14973692
This guy gets it.

>>14975771
fucking KEK saved

>>14971921
Good in this sense means virtuous

>>14976188
might be bait, but there's a genuine part in people like this that thinks it's a valid criticism

>>14971881
>If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them.
how will Yaweh ever recover?

>>14971881
>Absent a coherent concept of "good"
Reminder that this is the guy who chose Commodus as his successor over his own children. He obviously had no faith in his own ability to instill goodness in anyone, and if somehow he did have faith in it, he was a terrible judge of character and thus his advice cannot be trusted.

Funny how Aureliusfags always ignore the reality of Aurelius's catastrophic errors in judgement.

>>14977689
Damn

>>14977689
Bro, the senate is famous for defaming anyone they don't like after killing them. It's the oldest trick in roman politics, keeps the plebs from getting uppity. It's highly unlikely that commodus was actually that bad

>>14976076
Brainlet.

>>14977768
Brainlet.

>>14971936
hello cuckthlic

>>14977689
Commodus was his only surviving biological son. He could have not had the foresight to see how bad of an emperor Commodus would have been

>>14977689
OH NO NO NO NO MARKY BROS WE GOT TOO STOICKY

>>14977980
Once again, the faults of roman emperors are greatly exaggerated. Caligula did not actually make his horse a senator, nero was not actually incestuous, commodus did not tie the feet of beggars together and use them as clubs