/lit/ - Literature

fuck I meant to post this on /lit/ janny pls no ban

>>14938691
Nigga, I don't read. Get this gay ass philosopher's stone shit outta here.

>>14938691
german philosophy is fake

>>14938694
Analytic tears

>>14938691

Hegel realized that book printed before 1900 need an editor.

>>14938691
fuck off leaf kys
god please, canada burn in hell
fucking neo communist shits

>>14938691
>Eurocentrism
>Imperialism apologist
>Historical determinism
>Metaphysical, antiscientific mumbo-jumbo

These one come to mind.

I understood all of the Phenomenology of Spirit the first read AMA

>>14938698
Op asked for a critic, etc pointing out bad things not good things

>>14938695
Analytic philosophy is a branch of German philosophy, pleb.

>>14938706
Nothing good about historical determinism.
Not even when you get it right by chance, much less when you get it wrong like Hegel did.

That's without entering his justification for it with the "Spirit" and that which belongs to the fourth point.

>>14938699
Summarize it in clear, plain English. No jargon or nebulous blathering.

>>14938698
>Eurocentrism
not really or not substantive enough
>Imperialism apologist
again, not really or too ambiguous
>Historical determinism
has not even read hegel, refuted by this: Hegel studied the science of the past, not the future
>Metaphysical, antiscientific mumbo-jumbo
literally has no idea of what philosophy is.

feel free to cite any serious sources on this

>>14938745
>not really
not an argument
>haven't read it
not an argument
>no idea
not an argument

>>14938691
I am sorry but the first to parts of Geist with the Mann und Frau and the menschliches oder göttliches Gesetz are jsut fucking retarded.
He is saying so much flowery shit it is hard to take serious. How he so frequently can go from some of the most insightful and eyeopening philosophy to retarded shit like that makes me really question Hegel as a whole which I greatly seek to avoid since the parts of genius are greater than anything I have read before.

>>14938763
not argument needed, i was just asking for sources

>>14938775
Bertrand Rusell is enough.

>>14938691
Hard idealism is just the wrong way to go from Kant (looking at you too, Schopenhauer).

The world and events cannot be chopped into neat stages like the dialectic.

History is not teleological in a metaphysical sense.

Both of these last points are endemic to Western rationality and Enlightenment ideology.

So ultimately Hegel's observations about the development of self-consciousness were true but in a totally contingent in non-discrete way

why did the young hegelians BTFO the old? does this prove hegel really did sell out?

>Nature is in its own self this process of becoming Spirit, of sublating its otherness—and how the Idea is present in each grade or level of Nature itself: estranged from the Idea, Nature is only the corpse of the Understanding. Nature is, however, only implicitly the Idea, and Schelling therefore called her a petrified intelligence . . . ; but God does not remain petrified and dead; the very stones cry out and raise themselves to Spirit.

if you don't think this is retarded and you're not a philosophy professor you're too far gone up your own ass

>>14938816
i wasn't joking i'm asking for serious sources i've read some Hegel but i'm putting his political philosophy for last and would be helpful to have some serious secundary literature about it

I PREFER AYN RAND AND DFW

>>14938858
don't know in which exact works they did it, but both Kierkegaard and Marx had decent critiques of Hegel that went beyond the "reee why is he popular" of Schopenhauer

Russell provides a critique from the point of view of a British logicist, but I don't think he has a book about Hegel itself, it's mostly tidbits here and there, most famously his chapter on the A History of Western Philosophy

pretty much every German philosopher after him critiqued him in some way or another so it's hard to track down. Feuerbach might be worth looking into, according to Marx he was the most insightful but haven't read it

>>14938889
yeh
i already knew all of this but thanks anyway it's always good to see Feuerbach get some recognition

>>14938857
Philosophy professors generally ignore Hegel for exactly that reason.

everyone knows he hid everything behind a wall of obscurantist. It isn't even worth reading him

>>14938899
>>14938909
>hasn't been initiated into the ancient mystery religions to get it

>>14938909
he was very well read not only of his own contemporaries (literally the enterity of western philosophy, even if he told students to read second literature) and happened to be very insightful in many things.
Also let's not forget he resurrected many philosophies that would have been forgotten by now (he and the neokantians influenced by him made the history of philosophy a central figure of philosophy as a whole)

>>14938857
schoepenhauer's class was skipped for this?? incel rants are at least fun to listen to

>>14938942
>happened to be very insightful in many things
I've never heard a single "insight" credited to Hegel. It's all just vague, sloppy talk about nothing.

>>14938691
To paraphrase an English Renaissance hermetic, there are four kinds of philosophers.
1) those who explain themselves clearly and simply to the uninitiated (Plato)
2) those who veil their words and knowledge so that the uninitiated can't get to it (Hegel)
3) those who unknowingly mislead due to personal ignorance
4) those who willfully mislead

>>14938968
>I've never heard ...
because you have to actually read the guy

>>14938974
absolutely retarded. you should feel bad for having posted that.

>>14939031
I simply gave context without any opinion. lmfao

>>14939036
>lmfao

>>14939037
thought so lmfao

>>14939038
>lmfao

>>14939031
Cringe

>when you realize all the criticism of Hegel fits into his system

>>14939080
B A S E D

>>14938974
Give examples for each

>>14938998
Oh I've read him. He was a bloviating charlatan. Cope.

I never got the "Hegel is too cryptic" meme. Its like you guys read some random chapter from the middle of the book and made your judgement off that. If you start from the preface and take it slow enough that you get what he is saying then it really isn't that difficult once you get into the thick of things

>>14939182
We don't actually read anything. We just stick to one liners and respond with cope and seethe.

>>14939159
Any direct criticisms? Like quotes you disagree with

>>14939197
Careful
I asked for that before and all i got was "read russell lol"

>>14939197
Read Russel. He refuted him

>>14939182
Yeah dude guess all the renowned philosophers and philosophy Ph.D that all agree he's cryptic for no reason are just bullshitting.

>>14938857
So basically Hegel is saying you can see the Idea through its employment in Nature, although Nature itself isn’t the Idea

>>14939182
Explain the first part of Spirit: "the 'true' Spirit. The ethical order."

>>14939197
I'm still waiting for that list of "insights" Hegel supposedly provided.

>>14939197
>quotes you disagree with
Are you clinically retarded? There is nothing to 'agree' or 'disagree' with in Hegel because he only wrote vague meaningless nonsense.

>>14938691
no

>>14938691
anyone with a 10th grade reading level can understand him. not that hard...

>>14939197
retard

>>14939334

>>14938691
He was btfo by Aristotle.

>>14939334
Let's hear some of the "insights" Hegel supposedly provided.

>>14938719
Basically, consciousness, both individual and collective, passes through states of naive empiricism to naive rationalism to transcendental to speculative wherein self is apprehended and absolute knowledge is attained.

>>14939409
Doesn’t it seem a little convenient that half of that progression takes place during a 50 year stretch in Germany?

>>14939439
Based?

>>14939347
Coping his entire adult life

Why does Hegel make Analytic "philosophers" so buttblasted?

>>14938698
you're coming on a bit strong with that bait, anon

>>14938691
just fucking read the dude lmao

>>14939504
lol today society teaches holocaust class from day 0 to your last years in education coping you say? you don't know cope when you have to live with the fact that modern society is built upon trash upon kiked trash

>>14938691
A credible source tells me that Hegel loved niggers and even allowed one to copulate with his wife

>>14938857
>>Nature is in its own self this process of becoming Spirit, of sublating its otherness—and how the Idea is present in each grade or level of Nature itself: estranged from the Idea, Nature is only the corpse of the Understanding. Nature is, however, only implicitly the Idea, and Schelling therefore called her a petrified intelligence . . . ; but God does not remain petrified and dead; the very stones cry out and raise themselves to Spirit.
This is genius.

>>14939242
No it's more immanent in that, think Nietzsche. Hegel actually directly responded to the line of thought you are getting at-- in that greentext.

>>14938691

I'll be short and simple.

Hegel never supports his claims with veracity. He instead chooses to pine over contemplative assumptions.

Worst of all, he produces nothing to realistically work with.

>>14939756
/pol/ is leaking again

>>14939975
Can you give some examples from the text

>>14940039

In "Phenomenology of Spirit", Hegel proposes different definitions of consciousness, but never provides an objective relation to form such assumptions. This leads to the over contemplative approach that Hegel is known for. It essentially relies on the reader to "fill the gaps", meaning he lacks the ability to adequately articulate or form his argument and thus leaves the "hard work" to the reader.

He builds on philosophical traditions of the past without providing a workable, modern solutions. This can be seen in his critique of the "reductio ad absurdum" argument, where he stipulates that reason necessarily generates contradictions. He neglects to provide a framework for concise and soluble reasoning. In a modern setting, where moral ambiguity has become more mainstream, a contradiction holds equal weight with a confirmation.

>>14940037
agreed with Schops fuck Israel and the concept of the Jewish nation

>>14940100
Thats not what he was saying but yes taking pride in any nation or race is foolish

>>14940083
frameworks change with consciousness.

>>14940110
my post was just an extrapolation of what he was saying. The concept of being proud of being Jewish or a Jewish nation is clearly ridiculous. Israel should merge with the countries around it and all the rest of the world, nationalism is stupid. And having some jewish identity because you want to associate yourself with people who have nothing to do with you but just happen to be Jewish? Ridiculous lol.

>>14940115

And thus lies the problem with Hegel.

The fluidity of consciousness lends to unworkable frameworks. Ultimately he proves, and produces, nothing.

>>14940165
I think thats kind of hard to say when you look at his massive influence. from Marx and the left Hegelians, and Keirkegaard and the right Hegelians. Not to mention his revolutionary understanding of history that still very much is impacted by the field. If you take a class on historical methodology, you will inevitably talk about Hegel.

Ironically in fact, probably one of the most convoluted and obscure philosophers who almost completely talks in the abstract and vague has had one of the most tangible impacts on history.

>>14940181

There is nothing revolutionary about a drove of mindless zombies who worship words they do not understand.

Kim Kardashian has a "massive influence", and look where we are today.

How can he have made an impact when nothing he has said held any weight or substance? He merely created a box for confused readers who project and self-fulfill.

>>14940211
>created a box for confused readers who project and self-fulfill.
Sounds like the bible.

Does that mean Hegel is god?

>>14940221
yes. ironically and unironically(By Hegel's conception of God).

>>14940211
Wether he is comprehensible or not is besides the point. Regardless, it is demonstrably true that he "produced" a massive amount of influence.

>>14938691
his storicism is an ideology
all ideologies are wrong

>>14940250

Do you mean like how todays "influencers" "produce" massive amounts of influence?

>>14940288
Its ok. You aren't educated enough to get him. But please continue with your asinine comparisons.

>>14940294
say 1 intelligent thing about Hegel

>>14940299
he retroactively fuked ur mum

>>14940310
that would be a dent even on him, the type of guys ive seen do that...

>>14939080
he really is the final boss of philosophy, isn't he? the only applicable criticism of him is that he cannot be criticised.

>>14940707
That doesn't make him a boss. Just another among billions of muddleheaded losers.

>>14938838
>History is not teleological
Ah!
Tell that to him

>>14939080
>He bro if you criticise me that is like exactly what I predicted lol. By disproving my statement you prove it

>>14938857
It's perfectly in keeping with the time, and correct within that system of thought.
What's wrong with it?

>>14940083
His framework for concise and soluble reasoning is contradiction itself.

For Hegel, philosophical Truth is absolute, which means it's whole, there's only one true statement that explains the Universe.
So, any statement that you make, when put in contrast to the whole must lead to a contradiction, because it's not Truth.

That's how Hegelian logic works, his logic is exactly his dialectics, the development of thinking and philosophy is making a statement, realizing it's not Truth and from that contradiction making another one. So on and so on until eventually you reach the statement that explains the whole of the Absolute, that is Truth.

Logic and dialectics are one and the same in Hegel. They're also completely at odds with his political philosophy, not to mention devoid of any practical value.

>>14938691
The "frame-story" criticism: if there's no object outside consciousness then who's the story about?
His eventually answer to this is god, but then it's just an inverted Neoplatonism, taking as its substantial starting point intellection and falls prey to the same contradictions inherent to the One-all and its procession.

>>14940935
>One-all and its procession
Although, from Hegel's perspective it would be the All-one and it's reversion

>>14938857

Absolutely Christological.

>>14939236
>all the renowned philosophers and philosophy Ph.D that all agree

Quantity is not Epistemology.

>>14939236
love to resort to a textbook appeal to authority to prove my intellectual bona fides

>>14941091
>>14941328
>i don't find Hegel hard dude like just read from the beginning lmao
Counteracting a shitty opinion with other, contrary opinions from no-doubt more well-read people than him is not an appeal to authority. It's merely answering anecdote with anecdote.

>>14940165
Thats what he criticizes himself though. He says either way people will be working with usable frameworks regardless of is some people are getting no where

>>14939080
>shit your pants in public
dude i knew everyone would freak out about it
checkmate libs

>>14938691
>Is there any substantive criticism of Dr. Bronner other than his writing being too cryptic to to decipher?

>>14940791
>devoid of any practical value.
Fuck off A*gloid. Your anti-philosophical outlook of the world disgusts me.

>>14940299
He has an interesting conception and focus that is between the absolutely abstract concepts of things like Critique of pure reason, and more concrete stuff like British empiricism. A form of metaknowledge below Kant, but above empirical reasoning. Principles of abstract development of history as a conscious continuity based on the principle of contingency.

I personally am only familiar with his philosophy of History.

>>14942600
Based Bronner's poster. Love the sting of that stuff. Makes you feel clean as fuck. Completely irrefutable. definitely up there with Hegel.

>>14939971
I don’t see how he did other than by somehow sublimating the term Spirit as something other than Idea, which seems to escape my knowledge of being a possibility. Unless I’m wrong? But Hegel is playing a game of semantics at this point, or the translation is just bad

He places too little importance on the individual which is where people like Stirner, Kirkegaard and the existentialists came in. Still one of the most influential people who ever lived

>>14940748
>heh, it used to be day time and that used to be an objective fact? well big mistake bucko now it's nighttime

>>14938968
>I've never heard a single "insight" credited to Hegel.
That's on you. And you have, by the way, you just didn't realize it because it trickled down to a different (less) thinker by the time you lapped it up.

>>14939212
>>14939245
>>14939264
>>14939342
Uncannily on queue

>>14943547
What's an example of one of Hegel's "insights"?

>>14942631
>G*rm mad continental philosophy has never produced anything of real value

>>14938691
I'm writing something critiquing Hegel in a significant manner, will publish later in the year.

His critics here haven't read him and neither have his supporters. Its just a big LARP of pseudo intellectuals

>>14938838
>Hegel's observations about the development of self-consciousness were true but in a totally contingent in non-discrete way
Are you telling me that Hegel has been... contradicted?

>>14942682
>Wrong
Yes.

>Semantics
No.

>Translation bad
Yes.

>>14943836
That two points of view can have a symbiotic conclusion. Most second graders have the same revelation

>>14938857
>the very stones cry out and raise themselves to Spirit.
This is beautiful. The stones and the trees prostrate to God..

>>14938691
kierkegaard's criticism that the hegelian system can not account for singular individuals is pretty decent. this is essentially the same as Deleuze's critique of hegel, which is that novelties can emerge and distrupt a cybernetic loop.