/lit/ - Literature

because the God of the Old Testament is the Demiurge

>>14926406
Malevolent or inept

man is made in his image, we have his tendencies and behaviours too but we are not gods and have no right to act like him.

God made everyone with free will. God made man for fellowship. He could have made a bunch of robots, but then the fellowship would mean nothing. With free will, some will make wrong choices. For them though God offers forgiveness, grace and salvation, all they have to do is ask for it and sincerely repent.

Human beings were created through genetic engineering to be a slave race. We were created by fallen Angel's to serve, reproduce, and die at the young age of 80

>>14926406
Becaus he was not Buddhist/Advaitist and did not want us all to be mindless NPCs.

>>14926453
>Adam, Noah, Seth, Shem lived to be upwards of ~800 years
>die at the young age of 80
what did he mean by this?

>>14926406
He did.

>>14926422

>>14926406
A better question: are good people man made? or is god responsible for the majority of good people?
Good is not well defined, but if we were to decide we would say that there are varying degrees of good and evil, and most people are bad to some degree. I agree that god should smite the truly evil ones, and there are more than a few. Some of them don't even function in the same way as the vast majority, god should probably end their existence, or make them so weak as to have even the wind cause them to shatter.

boring

>>14926630
Oh, the ironing.

>>14926640
Your 9th grade tier hot take on the topic is funny bro

>>14926406
Hehe. Sounds like someone hasn't read Job

>>14926444
We are robots from God's point of view. There is no free will. God is all-powerful and knew exactly what our behavior would be when He designed us. He could have designed us to be less selfish or sadistic, but he chose not to.

>>14926648
If you don't think Yahweh is a malevolent demon after reading the Bible, I don't know what to tell you.

>>14926406
I don't know why God didn't just stop Eve from fucking everything up. NOOOOOOOOOO WE HAVE TO LET PEOPLE DO WHATEVER THEY WANT NOOOOOOOO

>>14926523
Most based answer in this thread.

>>14926673
God knew Eve would sin.

>>14926717
And?

>>14926669
say you're sorry or burn in Hell, blasphemer.

>>14926728
It also knew it wouldn't act to prevent her sinning.

>>14926754
Yea and that just seems insane to me. Would be somewhat similar to me telling my child not to poke a bear because they will die, and then just standing there doing nothing as my child does exactly that and dies.

>>14926770
everything god does is for a reason

>>14926770
The idea is that because she considered the act of sinning, no matter what at some point she would have committed the act of sinning. She was no longer pure at that point in time.

>>14927159
Only because God designed her that way.

>>14927174
Yes he designed her to have free will, and with her free will she came to understand committing a sin is wrong, yet went along with it anyways. It was entirely her fault.

>>14927159
Not if God just didn't let her. He could just have not put the tree there.

>>14927159
Although I suppose you could say that she might have rebelled like shaytan did, and God can't really stop her from thinking a certain way and wanting to rebel. Of course we don't actually know that.

>>14926630
This world does not belong on the resume of a benevolent and competent god, therefore....

>>14926818

Accidental goodness is inferior to higher expressions/states of goodness. God did make everyone good but that does not mean that they stay good. Willing to be good is greater than being made good.

>>14927186
It's logically impossible for an all-knowing, all-powerful God to create something with free will. It's the equivalent of making an object He can't move.

>>14926662
That's a lot of assuming you did there.

>>14927214
More straightforwardly, he could have simply not given her a vulnerability to that temptation in the first place. He knew exactly what he was doing.

>>14927159
This is actually a good reply to my question. If I told my child not to do something and it tried to disobey me and I stopped it. I would still punish it for trying to disobey me. The problem is though you have to pressupose that if God didn't put the tree there that Eve would still desire to rebel somewhere in the future. Then you have to ask if he knew she would sin in both situations why did he choose to put the tree there and not simply let her rebel like Satan did? Also why does God not explain these things to us?

>>14927222
>God can't really stop her
God can do anything he wants -- harden hearts, extinguish hunger, remove curiosity. He designed Eve knowing full well that she would consume the forbidden fruit.

>>14926406

Because God is able to love not only the perfect, but the less-than-perfect.

>>14927283
God installed the desire to rebel itself. Everything happens in exact accordance with His plan.

>>14927295
Throwing people into a lake of fire is an odd expression of love.

>>14927214
To turn away from God is to have knowledge of Good and Evil. But Jesus was like the tree of life because he chose good before he knew evil. In other words his soul never fell away from God. Yet he was tempted to eat of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. The garden with all the trees is the potential of being. Since we are made in the image of God we also must have the freedom of God. Therefore we must encapsulate everything that is and that is not. Like God, we must overcome Darkness.

>>14927277
Yea I don't really get this either. I mean if God knew that Satan would rebel, I mean what's the point of creating him? Why didn't God just create beings that he knew would be loyal if given the opportunity to disobey?

>>14927311
Because the Bible is total bullshit that’s why and contradicts itself.

>>14926523
big brain post
>>14926406
How do you know what goodness is OP? What if what you think is badness is actually a process by which the whole world is redeemed to a greater state of goodness than could be logically achieved any other way?

People do not understand that they are an microcosm and microtheos. God does not have to know what we will do if he does not want to know. This all has to do with God as Trinity. Part of ourselves God does not know, but he is learning. God uses a kind of ignorance of his in order for other things to exist. The crucifixion of God is how God creates the world.

>>14927323
God is all-powerful. He could snap his fingers and transport everyone to that state of goodness immediately.

>>14927326
Nope, God is omniscient.

>>14927334
Even Gods ignorance is wisdom but if he gave it all away then I guess we would be born. God is goodness. God is not a slave and therefore he cannot make himself into a robot. The process of time is probably nothing to God. It's only to us that it would appear that reality is incomplete. But God sees everything and would not make what cannot endure. But due to his infinite nature there's plenty of room for the opposite to happen, but that opposite is by its nature is utterly weak and cannot overcome God. Thus it is only ultimately in an appearance that we are fallen and sinful. The state of being we know ourselves to be in is little more than a small dream we had in eternity. The process of the Trinity is the only primordial reality. God is, like he has always been, knowing himself.

>>14927277
Do you think God gives some people a predisposition to sin, and not others? If so where do you get this idea? It's interesting.

>>14927303
You’re probably old enough to know now, the lake of fire (and the outer darkness) are images of the torment of estrangement from God. As diminished as such an existence is, it is still reliant upon God willing it to be, and hence, upon God loving the damned.

>>14927332
God has fingers?

>>14927332
Maybe we are already in that state, only we perceive time differently than he does.

>>14927398
Obviously. It's called Moral Luck.

>>14926422

>>14926639
how would we know what boredom is if we never knew

>>14926511
They didn't have the Gregorian calendar then my nigga

>>14926406
>hasn't read Genesis
Cringe

>>14926422
Fuck off namefag

>>14927303
Get good then, scrub

>>14926444
We don’t have free will, though, because God designed us a specific way. We had no control over our own creation

>>14926639
Why didn’t God just make us good, and never experience boredom?

>>14926413
You’re just kicking the can down the road.

>>14928629
>>14926662
>there's no free will
>me jacking off to furrie porn is predetermined and divine
Fucking calvinist monkeys, I swear.
Pick up your cross and take some fucking responsibility in your life.

>>14926406
cause noone would have a free-will then

>>14928841
IT SOUNDS DUMB SO IT CAN'T BE TRUE. I'm not a calvinist btw. Calvinism is fucking hilarious though.

>>14928855
no one has freewill. studies have already shown that.

Because we were given free will because we rebelled against god because a loving relationship with god requires voluntary choi- ahahahahahahahahahaha can you believe this shit can you imagine people still rationalising a misappropriation of hebrew monotheism to tell you why you shouldn't use a condom

>>14928841
Calvinists only believe that it's predetermined whether you will go to heaven or hell. Retard

>>14926406
But God didn't make anyone, we made God.

>>14929052
>Calvinists only believe that you have no will of your own in the end worth a shit
>not that free will doesn't exist

>>14926406
>why didn't God make everything up
Because that would be meaningless without down brah

Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge, we were unable to understand good or bad at first.

>>14928512
I've read it.
Malevolent or inept.

>>14930058
>giving the freedom to choose and providing a moral compass is malevolent or inept
Said like a true pussy.

>>14926406
If you had to pick would you choose a comfortable life or an interesting life ?

>>14926422
He could also be indifferent.

>>14930139
Our inept father who art in heaven put a bad thing down into our playpen and walked away.
AND DIDN'T FIX THE PROBLEM.

That's your fairytale, son. And the sequel made even less sense.

>So inept father (centuries after getting so frustrated and killing millions in a flood) sent down Number One Son to make a new deal and then torture and kill him. Even though he can fly back to heaven
Now everything's good!

Stop lying to yourself and little kids about this bullshit

I went to a British Christian School where they taught us some complete fucked up version of the Bible that I've not seen anyone else being taught.

It went something like;
>God made Adam and Lilith out of mud
>Lilith was a cunt, so God put her in prison to be raped by angels, thus giving birth to demons
>God made Eve as a replacement out of Adams Rib
>Eve was a cunt, so God got fed up and kicked them out of Eden
>We are a product of Adam and Eve, and God had nothing to do with us

Even as a child, I remember thinking that the take away message from this was 'Why can't Women just listen to instructions?'

>>14926406
Everyone IS good.

>>14930230
lmao nice, you were taught gnostic heresies as a kid

have you found Jesus yet anon

>>14930230
It is that act of disobedience that allowed us to think in a meaningful way. If not for Eve, we'd be still be naked and picking berries in the garden and everything you find meaningful would be beyond your wildest imaginings. Also the Lilith story is an apocryphal Jewish myth.

>>14930255
Have you found him yet? He's been missing for quite a few years.

>>14930257
It's all myth

>>14926406
He gave everyone the natural inclination to be good, some go against that

>>14930274
ahhh hubris, the height of follies.

>>14930274
>It's all myth
Yeah, I know that. But the professed Christian traditionalists here shouldn't be fucking around with stuff like the Lilith story

>>14926444
Checked and Correct

>>14929319
? Read some John Calvin and get back to me dude, fuck even modern Presbyterian literature will do

>>14926662
>The creator of the universe must obey the temporal limitations of humans

>>14926484
>Becaus he was not Advaitist
wrong lol

>>14926422
hot topic/high school edge lord takes please go.

Technically He did, but Adam and Eve chose different.

>>14931580
You choose inept. >>14930169

>>14926413
>Old Testament
*Gospel of John

>>14927186
No retard ,the subconsciouss feeling govern people not his will it doesnt matter in the slightest choices are predetermined on his inner state of consciousness

The purpose of man is conscious union with god then and only then can you be truly good and understanding without any judgement or condemnation . When you experience such states you will understand it is effortless to be good and it simply flows from you while the more you descend in egoism the harder it is to be good and easier to be selfish. We have descended into egoism and now its our purpose to climb back up and realize our true innermost nature. The further we descend into egoism the more out suffering will increase until we had enough and are ready for a higher paradigm .

Now you may ask what is the reason for descend into egoism the source of all evil, sense of separation from life from eternal self perhaps it is the corruption of creation perhaps something else i cannot say for certain but what matters now is to wake up and ascend back to our true nature.


From personal experience before i awakened the eye of dharma there was a sense of dread a possibility of doing harm to something innocent was compelling in itself a spiraling loop in feelings(urge) and thoughts .
After stream entry there was no such evil or urge for it anymore.

>>14927405
Fairly based.

>>14926406
Why did God make everyone material instead of just running the immaterial potentials of everything happening in his head in an instant?

>>14926406
Because good only exists as a virtue in contrast to evil, and is meaningful only when attained.

Because Earth is not suppose to be Heaven.

>>14932822
this is a good question.

>>14930690
>wrong lol
Prove it.

>>14926406
>why god do x
Because he felt like it.
/thread

>>14930169
>>14931591
>that level of self loathing that you put the blame purely on God

>>14930645
>just read breh
>i have no time to explain lol

>>14926406
It ruins the point if you HAVE to be good. If being good was mandatory, then there wouldn't be a choice of acting with good intentions. Would you say a person giving you an apple on their own accord is as good as someone who has to give you one?

>>14933475
Also you can't really be 'wholly' good since you'll still fall into stupidity at the very least.
But you are expected to choose good for, a bit ironically, your own good.

God must be a dramatist. The good is defined by the bad. Moral goodness is only so in relation to depravity. The human dimension have complication and the spirit clamor for there to be an objective to the moral universe. Without depravity the moral content of existence would be nullified, an emptiness. Which is to say the Human would not exist as such.

>>14933845
I don't buy that. A world of a tree of knowledge of Good and Evil is only one possible reality. For many ages I had bliss and everything was fine and I didn't know evil. I see this reality is a kind of romance. I who I'm God's other will love him even when blind. At least that was the theory before this reality went wrong. Becoming mortal is a hell of a drug.

>>14926406
Muh free will.
Also if you don't suck his dick hard enough you'll experience unimaginable pain and suffering for the rest of eternity.

>>14930169
You only know the Retard version of Christianity. funny how you're supposed to be an anarchist and yet you hate your own freedom. you want god to be the state and to magically fix all your problems. Filthy statist.

>>14932822
Because God is Not only wise and intelligent. she also has a heart. Why do Gamers like to grind and to progress when they could just accomplish everything automatically? Or maybe the process of reality is how God thinks. Maybe we are that very potential that is happening. Maybe it did all happen instantaneously to God, but it sure doesn't seem like it for us.

>>14934052
Who would not want to have sex with the divine? What are you, gay?

>>14927398
Assuming a person believes in the Christian God of the Bible, and also accepts the science around biology, genetics, and psychology (which many don't), they would have to concede that God knowingly creates people with a inherent, genetic disposition towards being a sociopath, or an autist, or an alcoholic, or a horribly deformed infant that dies on the operating table 2 hours after birth.
God is a villainous character by any reasonable person's reading of the Bible.

>>14934084
God doesn't create them lol. They are a result of their parents having sex. That doesn't make it any better as he could just not let people be born like that.

The tree Adam and Eve are from was the tree of knowledge. They couldn't even understand whether their action was bad or good. God's orders weren't a test of morality, or goodness. They were a test of obedience.
But they weren't really a test at all, since he knew the result. God set up Adam and Eve for failure and used their rigged failure to justify their suffering.

>>14934084
You just don't get the point of a nightmare and the comfort We get after waking up. Neither to you consider that we are all immortals and that we would have a high tolerance for madness such as this reality. And oh how real it feels when we are so weak, so vulnerable. Don't you know that vulnerability and love are connected? So what if God's wife wanted to descend into madness and be saved by the one she has always loved? How do you know if you willed to be what you are in a world such as this? You can't remember.

Religious people please masturbate to kill yourselves!

>>14934108
What the hell is this post? Are you a schizophrenic?

>>14926453
The human mind actually has incredible capabilities ie latent psychic powers, being able to project your consciousness elsewhere, trauma programming and multiple personality disorder, astral projection etc etc. If you study esoteric stuff and become aware of science that isnt taught you will realize human beings a lot more than what we are told in school.
My best guess is that we are a species with amnesia and most of us are gaslit from childhood by the education system as to what is possible as well as what is desirable

Magic is real and technology is another form of magic that is based on mechanical structures but there is a universal magic that is sort of like the secret code of the universe.

>>14930058
>atheists
>reading
lol good one

>>14933475
because being good is subjective, say we use money to determine the value of things and then use subversive marketing to basically force people into buying things or expose them to telavision programming that is literally hypnotic mindcontrol then that would kind of be like a form of theft. Then where do we draw the line from a 14th century shop keeper paying a famous artist to create ads for his store and products and a 21st century apple iphone commercial, its basically all manipulative garabge that is legalized theft. How do we rationalize banking for instance being moral or the idea of jobs becoming increasingly irrelevant due to automation or technology improving. If you went back 500 years ago a farmer was still relavant if you went back 2500 hundred years ago he would be just as relevant and using similar technology and not have to worry about computers or advanced economic practices.
Where is god in all this in that we live in an age where humanity and the way we did things are quickly becoming obsolete and we live in times of completely made up arbitrary ideas that have no relavence towards the human condition but entire communities have been made up to support it ie transexualism or furries etc. Where do we draw the line of what is healthy human behaviour what is of god and what is not? If it is not of god then would god want us to basically engage in social and career suicide just to prove our faith?
We basically live in times where technology has murdered god in our lives and we are born into this nightmare reality where no one can make sense of anything.

>>14926406
Because it would be too easy and no fun. God wants to have a good chuckle at seeng how silly humans struggle with bloody diarrhea and slauther each other before He send everyone to hell.

>>14934727
Why didn’t God just make it so we never experience boredom?

>>14933475
Why didn’t God just make us have good intentions from the beginning?

>>14926406
because god was created by man

>>14934172
Get a load of this crazy fucker.

>>14926453
Stop playing Assassin's Creed.

>>14934205
>because being good is subjective
>proceeds to write some unreadable garbage
Wow.
>We basically live in times where technology has murdered god in our lives and we are born into this nightmare reality where no one can make sense of anything.
You can't. Most Christians, as long as they're not fundie nutjobs or c*lvinist undehumans, live pretty comfy, hopeful lives.

>>14935052
who created man then?

>>14926406
being free > being an NPC

>>14935164
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

>Summa Theologiae - Question 49: The cause of evil
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1049.htm

>>14935224
>it's just evolution breh
Thanks Richrad Dawkins.
Now I'm a godless emotional wreck and a closet faggot.
Want to fuck my wife?

>>14935280
Stay mad, christian bitch

>>14926406
"I made him just and right,
Sufficient to have stood, though free to fall.
Such I created all th' Ethereal Powers
And Spirits, both them who stood and them who faild;
Freely they stood who stood, and fell who fell."

>>14935286
>Stay mad, christian bitch
Not as mad as atheist cucks who drop muh fallacies like their doctor's xanax prescriptions when they can't understand the difference between objective and subjective morality.

>>14926406

The more you examine the supposed Ontological horror of having been "made" unbeknownst to you, the less congruent it is with God and Man alike, "creation" revealing itself to be an event of mutual dignity. Free will being not so much given to you after the fact, but the very thing whereby you are.

>>14935237
>the cause of evil
That would be god

>>14935280
Are you telling me that you are so weak that you need to believe in a retarded Jewish fairytale to keep your sanity?

>>14926406
Because God has an ultimate goal which we, within the system he has created for the fulfilment of that goal, cannot comprehend or meaningfully speculate about. This system requires all sorts of elements.

>>14935417
No. I need God to polish the sanity I already have to not become a cuck like Matt Dilahuntard.

>>14926406
”Only this,” said Solomon, ”I found, that God made man right, and he hath entangled himself with an infinity of questions.” (Eccl. vii. 30.)”God created man right” that is, in the state of justice; but, by giving ear to the serpent, man exposed himself to temptations, and was conquered. He rebelled against God, and his passions rebelled against himself.

>>14928841
Your contrarianism was caused by you spending too much time on 4chan, which, like your inclination towards furries and cartoon network was almost certainly determined by you having a lonely childhood. This was determined by various factors, including your parents, school environment and autism spectrum disorder. These factors all had causes, and those causes had causes.

>>14926406
Because then this thread would be one answer, and then everyone else telling them how nice their answer was.

>>14935627
Then I found Christ and said fuck all that shit, I want a normal life.

>>14935788
And yet you're still here.

>>14930255
>gnostic
That's not gnosticism you retarded chirstcuck.

>145 replies
purge. now.

>>14935944
And I'll be here until the day I die perhaps.
But I won't be a massive nihilist faggot anymore.

>>14930255
>>14930255
>>14935993
Sounds like some ultra orthodox judaism bullshit.
That or maybe it was a Vampire: The Masquerade school.

>>14933005
Anything that has parts and is subject to change is not immutable and hence isn't truly eternal, i.e. the manifested universe is not eternal but had to emerge from something else, but the emergence of a temporary and non-eternal thing like the universe (or X) presupposes an infinite regress which can only be ended with that X emerging from something else or from nothing, both of which upon further analysis are inherently self-contradictory and illogical. X cannot ever 'emerge from nothing', nothingness begets nothingness, add 0 an infinite number of times and you get 0. X cannot really 'emerge from something else' either as because of the regress involved this ultimately leads to some X emerging from some base X which always existed eternally and which is itself the uncaused cause of X, but to claim that some eternal X existing forever as the uncaused eternal X suddenly gives rise to a series of non-eternal emergences is really to say that the eternal becomes non-eternal, which is a contradiction in terms as the eternal can never become not-eternal because then it wasn't truly eternal to begin with. Even if one wants to say the uncaused God can still magically give rise to X without Himself being modified into that X like clay into a pot, that very act of creation constitutes an act which by having a before and after it was undertaken mark a change in God which means He is not truly immutable, i.e. such a God by failing to be completely immutable could not be unmoved mover who is the cause of everything else. Hence God does not actually create anything and nothing ever emerges from Him but He forever peacefully abides as the only thing in existence. To be conscious of anything when there is fundamentally only one thing that truly exists means that one's consciousness is identical with that one thing that exists.

>>14928646
im so interested in this sentence... what does this even mean?

>>14927272

>>14927272
the fuck??

>>14927272
Let's say I create an AI which flips a coin, and on each toss the AI "chooses" which side the coin lands on. At any time, I can delete or edit the program. Therefore, the AI has the "free will" to choose, but all the options to choose from and all the conditions surrounding that choice are designed and overseen by me.

We have free will to do things that God wants us to be free to do, but we can't, for example, choose to walk or water, or choose to live forever, because these things are not God's plan. Metaphorically speaking, God allows us to commit evil as an option within the "program", but this free will does not extend to breaking the conditions of the program.

>>14926406
free will

>>14927326
What is the scriptural basis of this claim?

free will
duh

>>14926669
>hasn’t read the Bible

>>14938669
The new testament speaks of a gospel, a letter. The holy spirit comes to comfort and lead us into all truth. Wisdom, who wrote the bible, told me while i was in conversation in heaven.

>>14930169
You fundamentally misunderstand the religious sentiment. This sort of take is something I'd expect from a highschooler or r/atheist because anyone who has read enough literature will eventually come to the realization that religion is entirely rational whatever their beliefs may be.
>>14926669
You don't read, just stop posting.

>>14938762
Oh of course thanks for clarifying

>>14928841
did you chose to be born? no
you were destined to exist in the same era as furrie porn, and put in the perfect circumstances to be able to jack to it.
birth is destiny.

>>14938832
The gospel/letter in our heart* the lamb was slain before the foundations of the world. Through him all were created. God made us in his image, ect

>>14938949
Perfect circumstances placed me here to say this: ur an faggot

>>14938949
>you're destined to be a degenerate bruh
>just be a degenerate bruh
>you have no choice but to be a degenerate bruh
pussy talk continues.

>>14930169
This is like reading my teenage angst posts from 20+ years ago. Thank God I became more discerning.

>Ctrl+F "free will"
>17 results
Typical christcuck cope doesn't explain why God also felt like creating suffering alongside with evil. You can justify evil thoughts as a product of free will, how does anything justify anal cancer?

>>14930169
>heh he sent his own son to get tortutred and kill
>how meaningless
>like
>why would God need to show you the exact amount of how fucked up you are
>that we would literally kill truth itself if it doesn't suit our carnal bullshit
>then
>get this
>God still forgives you
>and reveals that death is dogshit compared to God's love
Not even one poetry at all.

>>14940258
Boo hoo on Mario I have to jump and step on the turtles or they kill me boohoo. seriously dude you could apply that argument to why do we have to eat, why do we have to breathe, why do we have to poop. It's because we're corruptible weak pathetic creatures. Some say that going through a world such as this adds character to the otherwise immortal soul that was incapable of suffering or vanity. Get them achievement points boi. I went to Earth and had anal cancer, beat that. I had schizophrenia but managed to survive till I was 70 and lots of people took care of me, wow they're so kind. Dem authentic feels boi. U a Soldier.

And look at Jesus leading a perfect life in a corruptible world. suffering at the hands of Sinners that he may draw all to himself. Yes, the Souls gain much by this world. My own achievements where to be a Christian even though most of my brethren are insane and blind to the truth concerning certain things which are commonly believed. and I'm trying to treat this world as a game and to exist with the Dignity of someone that has existed for a long time. Covid 19 is just another one of those things that gives the world spice and test many people's character. have fun with governments ruining the economy even more than they have to. Have fun with knowing that more people have died by cars in 25 minutes than have from Covid-19. The world is not all great but those people who are evil are one of the reasons why many of us came here in the first place. We were subject to emptiness not Willingly but because our brethren had fallen. This world is just a school, a stage, a play, a game. It's intense.

>>14926406
Because choosing to be good in the face of wickedness and sin is the sign of an individual of truly remarkable character.

To make all good from the start would be pointless as there would be no achievement in being good and therefore goodness would simply lose its value