/lit/ - Literature

It doesn't matter.

There are books on this

>>14929051
of course he supported it. Do you think he was a commie faggot or something?

>>14930041
Yes, actually

Book burning is not bad or good, it's entirely depending on the context. In Quitxote's case, it was for his own good so it wasn't a bad thing. The people doing the burning were not rabid anti-liberty or anything of the sort, just normal people doing what they perceived was best.

>>14929884
I feel like it does matter since Don Quixote is a book heavily steeped in satire, it would help to know for certain what exactly it was satirizing vs. what should be taken at face value.
>>14929888
Do you have any recs for what books talk about this?
>>14930052
It's funny as this scene came off to me as highly satirical, considering what arbitrary reasons they saved vs. burnt books.

>>14930338
besides typing Cervantes into libgen and having a ton of scholarly work come up, you can watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-D0iXLZWO0&list=PL4A35EEAEE3880943

>>14930338
>it would help to know for certain what exactly it was satirizing vs. what should be taken at face value.
Part of reading is that a certain amount of interpretation is left up to the observer. It's not like there is necessarily a divide between "satire" and "face-value." Just because author felt one way doesn't mean his work is bound by it.

>>14930338
you thought it was satire? i took it as cervantes criticising the books he deemed shitty through his characters

>>14930349
In my annotated version, they point out that Cervantes often calls bad what he thinks is good and good for what he thinks is trash. So, hard to tell.

>>14929051
All the writers who were allowed to be published back then had to pretend to agree with the Church and the king at least, and support them at best.

>>14930359
let me guess, the people annotating it thought cervantes was actually a thot enabler and hated the catholic church
cause that would explain a lot and would be a 180° from what cervantes actually writes which is women that are downright displayed as holy paragons of virtue if they choose to die than get raped

>>14930348
>Just because author felt one way doesn't mean his work is bound by it.
Yes, it does. What the fuck is the matter with you?

>>14930366
persiles and sigismunda is literally an ode in prose to the catholic religion and customs

>>14930366
Another example of this is Shakespeare, who came from a Catholic background but had to larp as Protestant in order to survive .

>>14929051
He was Jewish, so no, he didn't support the Inquisition.

>>14930387
>He was Jewish
fake news.

>>14930379
Funny how all the Spanish works from that time are pro-Catholic, isn't it?

>>14930371
This is why annotations shouldn't be taken at face value. Especially not in the pozzed era we live nowadays.

>>14930366
What is the point of this, to make him seem like crypto-skeptic? You have no idea his religious convictions.

>>14930393
No, he was Jewish. This is pretty common knowledge. An abundance of Spanish intellectuals were Jewish converts. Don Quijote is pretty subversive literature.

>>14930393
His family was originally Jewish and they converted to Catholicism because the new Catholic monarchy, after the Muslims got kicked out, was notoriously intolerant.

>>14930396
how could it be that people could disagree with whatever brand of ideology you believe, amirite?

>>14929051
>Tolkien really wrote about nazis and mudslimes and the a-bomb
When will you die?

>>14930406
I actually do. I'm Spanish. And no, I didn't say anything about him, just mentioned the context of the period. Why risk being killed as a heretic when all you had to do in order to survive was nod and smile?

>>14930410
Didn't the Jews side with the Moors during the latter's conquest of the Iberian peninsula, though? It's not like Christians just decided to treat the Jews like doodoo for funsies.

>>14930424
>Why risk being killed as a heretic when all you had to do in order to survive was nod and smile?
Your kind belong in the chambers

>>14930409
>>14930410
There isn''t conclusive proof for this. It's a /x/ tier conspiracy theory at best.

>>14930410
citation needed

>>14930424
>Why risk being killed as a heretic when all you had to do in order to survive was nod and smile?
Same reason people risk having their character assassinated now by being right-wing dissidents. He had something to say, and it wasn't about the sort of political issues people nowadays obsess over like religion or government.

>>14930396
But cervantes wrote it considering it his magnus opus, and wrote it knowing it was his last work before he would die. He could've continued Galatea or anything but he chose to wrote persiles and sigismunda, a book which like I said is an ode in prose to the catholic religion.
if he wanted to focus on his own thing he wouldn't be praising the catholic religion in subtle ways like he did in that work, which i reiterate is a long novel that cervantes himself said would be his best work

>>14930416
I'm Catholic...

>>14930425
>Didn't the Jews side with the Moors during the latter's conquest of the Iberian peninsula, though?
yes, they were a firth column and needed to be converted or expelled, of which they could choose either.

>>14930419
>a work of satire should not at all reflect the times in which it was written in

>>14930434
You overestimate the freedom in his time.

>>14930434
Based...kinda funny how his shitpost secured his legacy when his last serious work is notoriously overlooked.

>>14930449
pretty sure he would've continued galatea, a work which several times he mentions he wanted to write a second part to than write an ode to the catholic religion
whatever, since it's been 500 years anybody can say anything they want and amke it their headcannon, after all you are asserting things based off none-evidence and speculating at best, because the evidence itself says that cervantes thought the catholic religion was god-tier

>>14930429
>>14930432
>He was the fourth son of a
surgeon, Rodrigo de Cervantes, and of Leonor de Cortinas. While the family may have had some claim to nobility they often found themselves in financial straits. Moreover, they were almost certainly of converso origin, that is,
converts to Catholicism of Jewish ancestry. In the Spain of Cervantes’ day
this meant living under clouds of official suspicion and social mistrust, with
far more limited opportunities than were enjoyed by members of the “Old
Christian” caste.
from the Cambridge companion to Cervantes
They say, "almost certainly," so I concede that it isn't fact.

>>14930456
Supporting Catholicism and supporting the Inquisition are two different things.

>>14930459
>(((Cambridge)))
yikes

>>14930465
well in persiles and sigismunda and el licenciado vidriera a morisca in one novel and and two jews in the other fuck over our heroes through black magic

>>14930459
Reminder these same Jews try to claim that Homer was a Jew, without any evidence at all. They are Black-African tier when it comes to wewuz.

>>14930393
>he doesn't know
KEK
>The great watershed in modern Spanish intellectual history was the discovery in the 20th century, first by Spanish exile and Princeton professor Américo Castro, that many notable people including some Christian saints, were the descendents of Spanish Jews (Sephardim). It has been estimated that 80% of the writers of Cervantes' day had Jewish ancestry.
>80% of the writers of Cervantes' day had Jewish ancestry.

But wait, there's more!

>His mother [Molière's] was the daughter of a prosperous bourgeois family[11] Upon seeing him for the first time, a maid exclaimed, "Le nez!", a reference to the infant's large nose. Molière was called "Le Nez" by his family from that time

>Early in his life [Milton's dad] he converted to the Protestantism, and his own Roman Catholic father, Richard Milton, subsequently disowned him. He moved to London around 1583 to work as an apprentice scrivener.[2] His work largely pertained to business matters; often working as a moneylender or a financial broker.

Get rekt, goyim!

>>14930429
No, it isn't. It's well-known that Cervantes was ethnically Jewish, and if you actually read Don Quijote (you haven't), you'd understand that he was temperamentally Jewish as well.

>>14930480
Was Quevedo a Jew? He's the only Spanish writer I care about.

>>14930480
holy...based...

>>14930485
>you'd understand that he was temperamentally Jewish as well.
I have read it but I must admit I'm not familiar with the "Jewish temperament." You mean neurotic and anxious like Kafka? What's an example of Jewishness in Don Quijote?

>>14930448
>not at all
Quixote is not a satire on any of your retarded projections tho
Learn to read

>>14930480
>having a large nose automatically means you're a Jew
>lending money to people automatically means you're a Jew
This beyond /pol/ tier stupidity.

>>14930490
All jokes aside, "Jewish ancestry" is a pretty vague concept. Arguably even a single great-grandparent constitute some form of Jewish ancestry. If there is a high degree of intermarriage (which is made easier by forced conversions) then it stands to reason a good proportion of the population should have Jewish ancestry.
But by the same token they would also have a majority of old Spaniard ancestry and perhaps a mix of other things as well.
Philosemites and antisemites alike (not to mention the jews themselves, of course) really make too much of a deal out of whether you had a random jewish great-grandad/grandma or not.

Cervantes no era Judio idiotas.

>>14930516
Enlighten us, dear scholar, with your well documented opinion.

>worked in the office of a Cardinal
>had his ransom paid for by a Catholic Holy Order when he was kidnapped

even if he was a convert, he was a practical Catholic

>>14930498
Cervantes was temperamentally Jewish insofar as his writing subverted the traditional European culture of the Middle Ages via satire. Kind of how Jews in the modern US mock the America of the 50s in a disparaging way meant to undermine any admiration for the past. Or how you can't talk about the origins of the US in a nice way because people will quickly point out slavery.

>>14930533
So Dante was a Jew?

>>14930539
Retard.

>>14930526
Of course he was. He was even initiated into the Franciscan brotherhood in 1613. Point is his genes are Jewish but his soul is catholic.

>>14930533
>everything I like is a jew! no no the goy cannot be superior than us!

>>14930533
If you write satiric works about the past then that means you have a Jewish temperament? I think what you're saying here is a modern conception. Do you have any old examples of this besides Cervantes?

>>14930544
way to answer the question :)

>>14930526
>>14930545
This doesn't mean anything. How else would subversive elements subvert institutions if they were not parts of the institutions they wanted to subvert? It's just further proof of the "long march through the institutions" as an effective method that has been used for much longer before the also Jewish-spirited marxists coined the term for it.

>>14930523
There is no clear evidence besides from the clear fact that some Juden had to concert to Catholicism to live in Spain.

>>14930579
He didn't like the Church's politics since it contradicted Catholic teachings: slavery in the new world, intolerance in the motherland etc

>>14930579
>Joos bad

>>14930579
Schizo.

>>14930544
The Divine Comedy is a damning account of Italian politics. By your reasoning Dante must've been of a Jewish temperament

You are the retard

>>14930539
Probably. I don't read Dante as a subversive at all, he was known as being a hard-boiled Catholic and his works are a testament to that.
>>14930553
Facts are fact. Control yourself. I never implied all great writers were Jewish. It does seem like Cervantes was one though.
>>14930556
In the Spain of Cervantes' time, yeah that was subversive. Mind you, Spain took centuries longer than the rest of Europe to leave the "Middle Ages", read Ramiro de Maeztu.

>X is a jew
>Why?
>He talked against the catholic church hence a jew

>>14930609
You haven't the slightest idea of what he meant, or you just pretended to misunderstand his argument in order to derail it. Try harder.

>>14930612
>Mind you, Spain took centuries longer than the rest of Europe to leave the "Middle Ages"
They still haven't left them, Anon.

>>14930595
>>14930598
/leftypol/ and chaponigger tourists pls leave.

>>14930623
>They still haven't left them, Anon.
Have they even gotten out of the ape phase?

>>14930629
/lit/ is a leftist board. /pol/tards belong in their shithole.

>>14930622
>Cervantes was temperamentally Jewish insofar as his writing subverted the traditional European culture of the Middle Ages via satire.
Dante did the exact same thing. Why don't you enlighten me as to what I am misunderstanding?

>>14930647
How's Dante's work satire? And how's it a satire of the Middle Ages (an era he lived in)?

well i have no dog in this fight desu, i'm just glad you guys admitted and accepted that cervantes was a die-hard catholic :^) fuck protts and fuck atheists

>>14930655
He doesn't know. He's an idiot. I doubt he'll answer your question.
>>14930623
That's true for certain parts of Spain, namely certain loopholes in the countryside.

>>14930664
desu ur a faggot and fake catholic

>>14930673
no you

>>14930641
Basque, a language they still speak nowadays, was developed by cavemen.

>>14930682
>hurdur i converted to catholicism for political reasons cuz of nick fuentes in 2016-2017 me so cool and smart, no i don't go to church and no i don't take the sacrametns i just watch most holy family monastery videos online and call people i hate nigger hehe

>>14930655
>>14930667
The inferno presents the inverse (contrapasso) of the Church's teaching on Hell. That is, it is a place of choice rather than a place of banishment. He then places Church officials (including Popes) in Hell. these officials represent a criticism of the corruption in the Church at the time. He also places Florentine political officials in Hell, a criticism of Italian politics

I imagine that answers both of your questions

>>14930697
lol imagine thinking being asshurt gives you a foundation to judge someone as catholic or not
keep crying kiddo

>>14930721
ur not catholic :) stop larping, i bet you're a mehicano-americano who thinks he's italian too right? lolol

>>14930716
He was literally more Catholic and more righteous than the people he was criticizing. He wasn't trying to undermine Catholicism, he was trying to edify it. His hardboiled brand of Catholicism was a major part of the reason he was forced to live in exile.

>>14930743
Which is exactly my argument with reference to Cervantes

>>14930728
>n-no you're not catholic because i say so!! stop it!!

>>14930716
All of this is peak Catholic. True Catholics can see the poison in their religion. Had been around these days, he would've criticized the Church's rampant pedophilia. There's nothing subversive about this. The Church's behaviour is what's subversive to Catholicism.

>>14930778
see
>>14930752

>>14930752
I don't know, man. You could be right, but Don Quijote seems very subversive whereas Dante's works are more or less "holier-than-thou", hardboiled Catholic autism (and genius). Of course there are many ways to read the Quijote, I'm not a final authority, but I have my suspicions about Cervantes. Brilliant writer, but a subversive one.

>>14930788
I don't get how they are at all comparable. Dante had an ideal in mind. Cervantes was only making a satire of some old chivalry tales.

>>14930799

>>14930801
>Cervantes was only making a satire of some old chivalry tales.
Maybe in book 1

Didnt cervantes fight against the ottomans? pretty sure he just saw some forms of fantastic chivalry as being outdated, hopelessly "romantic". He is anti jewish and antimoor throughout don quixote, and many stories hold high a form of chivalry, courageous behavior and martial spirit.

Lazarillo of Tormes, now that's a subversive book. worth a read though, only 50pages but very entertaining.

>>14930817
>whoreshit
is that the same whore who had diarrhea?

>>14930817
Never seen Game of Thrones and I choose not to fill my mind with such vulgar and vile nonsense. Quote doesn't ring true here either, I conceded that possibility that you could be right so we can end this conversation and move on.

>>14930480

AYO HOL UP

though conversos were everywhere (good read is (R. Maryk's The Jesuit order as a synagogue of jews is a good read about this infiltration), I very much doubt that they suddenly discovered that actually all of those cultured spaniards were jews.

>NOOOOOO YOU CAN'T JUST ASSIMILATE INTO OUR CULTURE AND RISE UP OUR RANKS THROUGH YOUR HARD WORK AND SUPERIOR INTELLIGENCE
>I MAY BELIEVE IN SOCIAL DARWINISM, BUT THIS ISN'T FAIR!

>o-of course he was jewish! there's enough speculation around it to confirm it!!! why would you want to deny it are you some kind of anti-semitic nazi?

>>14932217
just kidding btw i just wanted to bump this thread :)

>>14932217
fuck you, he wasn't jewish dumb retard

>>14932226
Cervantes was actually born a girl but his father, who was a surgeon, did the first sex change operation on him.

>>14932243
based

>>14929051
I don't know because I haven't read it, but I'm willing to bet most of the responses will be biased interpretations based on the reader's personal political leanings.

>>14930499
What are you trying to say? That there is zero social or political satire in Don Quixote at all?