/lit/ - Literature

>>14924502
Tradition and purity of doctrine are opposites. Almost the same with mysticism and scholasticism, when Aquinas had his mystical vision he stopped doing philosophy

>>14924502
>X posses some abstract idea which I named with a positive word
>Y idem
>Z idem

>>14924524
>posses

>>14924517
>Tradition and purity of doctrine are opposites
I said perceived tradition and perceived purity. These perceptions are not at odds.

>>14924541
Tradition is the accumulation of crap over time see all the weird little rituals the Catholics have. The Reformation did away with all of that under the pretense of getting rid of the especially bad ones like indulgences. A pure doctrine is a simple unchanging one and a tradition grows over time in complexity

>>14924502
it's called catholicism

>>14924556
>Tradition is the accumulation of crap over time
No, that's an amalgamation. A tradition, ideally, is something which by its very nature remains unchanged.

>>14924502
OP has a perceived premium on sucking cock.

>>14924572
Why does the post anger you, exactly?

>>14924567
If that is the case the Catholics and Orthodox are definitely not traditional

>>14924583
They are perceived as traditional.

>>14924535
>"Haha, having a "lapsus linguae" means you're stoopid¡¡1¡
Top peak, anon. Also
>not an argument

The problem is mostly autism, and the church being used as a vehicle for political ideologies and mindless tribalism. The church is a tool, and a gift handed down by Christ. The unfortionant situation is that most churches, especially within Protestantism have lost their purpose and have become country clubs for boomers. If you were handed down a tradition where you can recieve the sacraments, and has an intact liturgy you should stick with it. The best options today are Coptic, Episcopalian, Eastern Orthodox, SSPX, and possibly Lutheran. All these mentioned above are not perfect if taken as "thee one true church", the church itself doesn't belong to anyone, it is a vessel for sacred tradition that is preserved in the traditional ancient liturgies.

>>14924589
And they are an amalgamation of crap. So perceived tradition and perceived purity are opposites

>>14924582
because its gay

>>14924600
>And they are an amalgamation of crap
According to who? Most practising Catholics and Orthos would not think of their traditions as amalgamations.

>>14924591
must be tough being stuck home from school. fuck this new eternal summer

>>14924612
In what way?

>>14924622
must be tough not being able to express an argument. Don't bother replying

>>14924638

>>14924620
Multiple creeds, sayings, scholastic philosophy, papal bulls, etc are added over time. Fundamentalists throw all that away and stick just to the Bible that is a purer doctrine aka simpler than the traditions of Catholics and Orthodox

>>14924630
in a gay way.

>>14924502
>Lutheranism/Calvinism have a perceived premium on purity
>purity
*materialism

>>14924645
Those philosophies, sayings, bulls etc. are all based within an Apostolic tradition, however. Calling them "an amalgamation" is missing the point. It's all meant to be further elucidation on the work of the Apostles. Nothing is supposed to be novel. This term "amalgamation" implies new things being added, which is not the perception. It might be the case, but it's not the perception of the devout.

>>14924665
Stop trying to have sex with me.

>>14924670
It's sure as heck the perception of the Protestants that is added junk

>>14924683
Yes, but I am interested in the perceptions of the believers themselves. It seems to me that, even within the tradition itself, Catholics promote scholasticism over mysticism; the Orthodox promote mysticism in favour of scholasticism; early Protestantism seems singularly obsessed with this idea of purity. Why the break up of ideas? Why can't Christians embody all three?

>>14924704
Different genres of the same fiction. None of it is real anyway there isn't a logical answer it's just a matter of taste

>>14924683
Burning your entire home down to nothing but the bedrock because one room had paint chipping isn’t making it more “pure”, it’s just retardation.
Which just so happens to describe the mental faculties of most Protestants.

>>14924720
>Different genres of the same fiction.
Yes, but why did each denomination choose its particular genre? Protestantism's focus on purity isn't hard to trace back, but why did the Catholics favour scholasticism over mysticism and why did the Orthodox favour the opposite?

>>14924704

In reality these distinctions aren't as clear cut among actual Christians, people even on an individual level are very different regardless of if they're Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox. You'll find many different attitudes in all branches of Christianity

>>14924741
>In reality these distinctions aren't as clear cut among actual Christians
the perception persists regardless

>>14924747

Not as clear cut as you make it out to be, Catholicism has a pretty substantial mystical tradition, and Orthodoxy has it's scholasticism as well.

>>14924772
Do you have any book recommendations that showcase Catholicism's mystic tradition and Orthodoxy's scholasticism? At any rate, I don't doubt for a second that each has both; I am more interested in why Catholicism favours scholasticism over mysticism and why Orthodoxy favours the opposite.

>>14924502
>orthodoxy is mystical
>t. never been to an orthodox service
It's a literal smoke and mirror show for uneducated peasants who feel like they have to go to church or they'll be socially ostracised, while not even understanding what the priest is saying.
I mean peasants literally by the way.
It only seems mystical when you view it as an outsider
t. have Greek orthodox grandparents

>>14924784
Francis of Assisi is perhaps the most famous Catholic mystic. St. John Damascene in rather scholastic, but he’s technically a Catholic and an Orthodox figure.

>>14924827
You’re an idiot, the entire theology of the church is in the liturgy.

>>14924851
Wtf does it matter if it's in the liturgy if you don't even understand the language it's being said in? Pure superstition is what makes them go to church

>>14924784

Check out St John of the Cross, St Teresa of Avila, Meister Eckhart, St Gemma Galgani

>>14924851
It seems that you're the idiot.
What you said is not mutually exclusive with what I said.
Everyone in an Orthodox church service is there because it's expected of them. They get absolutely nothing "religious" out of it apart from the fact that the social obligation happens to be "going to church".
The vast majority of orthodox christians can't even name a single saint and why he is a saint.
The whole thing is peasants feeling obliged to go because people will start gossiping about then if they don't.
It is not "mystical" in the slightest.
I'm sure if you view it as an outsider, it seems exotic, but it's really nothing special

Oriental Orthodox Episcopalianism
https://youtu.be/6kBkba7Tr8g

>>14924928

Most based and soulful church that still exists, God bless based anon

>>14924502
Its called High Church Anglo Catholicism but if you're not English you'll never understand it.

>>14924860
>what is a liturgy book
>>14924886
You let the people in your parish bother you when you should be focused on contemplation during the liturgy. Peasant.
Also I’m not an outsider at all,the fucks at my parish built a church with a multimillion dollar mortgage and then stopped showing up and giving money. Lel. Similar stories across orthodoxy unfortunately.

>>14924502
Here's a much more important question: which denomination has female priests?

>>14924978

Anglican and Lutheran

>>14924945
Based

>>14924988
>>14924945
Excellent. I am now an Anglican.

>>14925053
Female clergy are an abomination.

>>14924978
Are such clerics to be called father or mother?

>>14925061
Explain Galatians 3:28, nerd.

>>14925077
They’re to be called heretics and anathema. The fruits of Protestantism are the fruits of Satan.
>>14925090
That isn’t in reference to the priesthood, it is talking about our standing before God. This has nothing to do with sacraments.

>>14925061
keep crying nerd

>>14924502
>tfw catholic mystic
screw scholasticism, tradition and orthodoxy

>>14925352
>thinks Pentecostalism is mystical

>>14925061
why does Paul support a female deacon in Romans 16 if female clergy are forbidden ?

>>14925061

>>14924502
>cringe modernist scribble pretending to depict Christ
Yeah, no wonder you can't understand which one of these holds all three qualities without any contradiction or dichotomy.

>>14924978
Those are cringe. Wives of clergy are highly based, however.

>>14924502
Catholicism and Orthodoxy have perceived premium on all of those. Choose between the two and throw Luther and Calvin in the trash.

>>14925419
Deaconate is the only office that has ever had females in it.

>Lutheranism/Calvinism have a perceived premium on purity

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHAHAHHAHAAAAAA AHAHA
AHA
AHAHAHAHA AHAH
AHAHHAH
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHHA

>>14925726
Thanks for your help, you pearl clutching dweeb.

>love Jesus
>admire the saints
>love Mary

Seems like the only logical path forward for me would be Catholicism. Orthodoxy seems a bit to nationalistic from what I've seen, though I could be wrong. Also, Catholicism has people like Dorothy Day.

>>14925985
>Orthodoxy seems a bit to nationalistic from what I've seen

>>14925987

Not all of us are Greek

>>14925989
How does that detract from Orthodoxy being the true historical Church? You don't need to be Russian/Greek to join and participate in church life. It's a highly unfortunate accident that Rome fell to Latinization degeneracy, but ordinary people can still revert it by coming back to the true church en masse and naturally establishing liturgy in your languages. There are also liturgy books to help you understand what's going on. Or you could just learn the language, you know? We're on /lit/ after all where mostly intellectuals gather.

>>14926034
>/lit/
>where mostly intellectuals gather

>>14926034

>being a second class parishioner in a foreign religious ethnic enclave

You could also just become Roman Catholic and go to Latin Mass

>>14926034
Reminder that the 2018 Moscow–Constantinople schism is STILL going on. How can you say the "true Church" and say russian/greek when you can't even decide within Orthodoxy who is correct?

>>14926135

It's funny as well because virtually all the Orthodox Patriarchs gush at the Pope when they meetup at the Vatican, they're all signing joint declarations and embracing each other with open arms. When it comes down to it, the Western pontiff is the boss bishop, and everyone not only knows it but acts as if it were true even if they protest verbally

>>14926135
>How can you say the "true Church" and say russian/greek when you can't even decide within Orthodoxy who is correct?
That's as stupid as claiming that the pre-schism Church cannot be the true church because there were huge Christological controversies which split the various patriarchs for very long periods of time. This is nothing new in history. The Church being true doesn't depend on all of the patriarchs being in perpetual communion at any given point in time.

>>14926213
I am not saying the splits makes it so there can't be a true Church. I am saying that you didn't tell us which one it is. Is it the Greeks or the Russians? Since one of them is wrong. They literally aren't in communion with each other.

>>14926135
>2018
>STILL
modernist accelerated-time bugman detected.
>>14926180
>When it comes down to it, the Western pontiff is the boss bishop
lmao. not even most catholics are dumb enough to believe this.
>acts as if it were true
why are we not in communion then? why do these people who treat him as boss not submit to his Vatican I authority to force a union?

>>14926233
>modernist accelerated-time bugman detected.
Not an argument. /pol/ epithets unfortunately do not add anything to your case.

>>14926213
That is correct. Church being true depends on direct apostolic sucession from Peter, as estabilished by Jesus Christ.

>>14926231
>I am saying that you didn't tell us which one it is. Is it the Greeks or the Russians? Since one of them is wrong.
This is as stupid as claiming that the pre-schism Church is false because of every single layman not being able to tell with absolute certainty that the anti-Nestorian position was correct. Only time and reception (among other things) by the entire Church can give us absolute certainty in such matters. It is pretty clear to me personally which side is correct (just look at who acts more like modernist Rome). We also do not say dogmatically with absolute certainty that the individual churches under Russia/Greece have no grace or no eucharist.

>>14926254
>apostolic sucession from Peter
Good thing Orthodoxy has that from Antioch. It also had it from Rome until Saint Peter's successors apostated.

>>14926249
He's just making a point of you clearly ignoring history by thinking a 2 year old shism to be unheard of in the pre-schism church.

>>14926100
latin mass - where at least everybody has no idea what's being said

>>14926100
>just become Roman Catholic

Why would I? what makes it more appealing?

>>14926100
>second class parishioner
that's just an excuse deluded and lazy "trad""cath" larpers make to avoid going through with conversion. there are plenty of converts who are far from "second class" at their parishes. just find a church with converts who speak english.

>>14926100
>just become a feminized latinized westernized bugmanized degenerate
"No".

>>14926213
By this same logic, why should a western Christian not simply embrace Catholicism?

>>14926341
>just find a church with converts who speak english.
Harder than you think.

>>14926313
> not knowing Latin
You are just embarassing yourself. Plenty of people know Latin at the Church I go to. It is not hard to understand the basics by any means. If you know a romance language you already are a good ways to a basic understanding.
Plenty of eastern Churches use way more complicated liturgical languages anyways. Old Church Slavonic, while rare, is certainly harder than Latin.

>>14926359
There is literally no argument in any of the /pol/ epithets you throw out. Far more appropriate for twitter.

>>14926359

Is this type of pseudo macho posturing supposed to be appealing?

>>14926359
Even the name of that image betrays your real motivations. You're purely interested in the aesthetics.

>>14926368
Because this schism has being going on for a thousand years and has clearly shown its fruits. The schismatics have created protestantism and thus most of the degeneracy we see today in modernity, they have also lost proper divine liturgy on an unprecedented scale. Seems pretty clear which one is the true church even from a basic layman viewpoint.
>>14926387
Classic tradcath excuse. Even if it was as impossible as you describe, it should not stop you from following the truth. Are you a materialist who won't pray to God to lead him to a church and make the process of smooth conversion possible, as it was for countless others before him? Did this stop the first Christians who are supposedly from the same church you are?

>>14926313

You don't need to know everything that's going on in the mass, the entire point is worshipping god and receiving the sacrament. Latin is great because it's the same everywhere you go, many novus ordo masses are begging to reintroduce latin as well

>>14926412
>they have also lost proper divine liturgy on an unprecedented scale
Elaborate.