/lit/ - Literature

Dude I'm unique lmao

In another book written by Salinger, it's mentioned offhand that Holden Caulfield died a few years after this novel was set on the beaches at Normandy. The book is about the destruction of innocence.

>>14912255
I think its important for the time. It was a relitively unique tale when it came out. I think its lost its luster when its message become so oversaturated in the modern world. I dont hold it against the book itself, I more blame the modern zeitgeist that makes the feel overplayed.

>>14912305
>The book is about the destruction of innocence.
Solid take. Salinger's work in general often seems to portray adulthood as a corrupt, inauthentic kind of existence. At times this portrayal can be pretty withering, too, and he's not wrong.

>>14912255
maybe because you are so phony

What was the deal with the teacher near the end?

>>14912255
I guess my point is so many stuff in this book is so random - e.g. Holden's mishearing of a song "Comin' Thro' the Rye", him asking the taxicab driver what happens to the ducks during winter, it makes very little sense.

>>14912255
>Why is this book important again?
It was on America's national high-school curriculum. For many young americans it was the first and only book they read and engaged with.

>>14912255
>Salinger's Valley Forge 201 file reveals that he was a "mediocre" student, and unlike the overachievement enjoyed by members of the Glass family about whom he wrote, his recorded IQ between 111 and 115 was slightly above average.
figures

>>14912255
You need to have an above average EQ in order to understand the novel. >>14912305 hits the mark but if you're an autistic sociopath you're not going to understand why it is touching to so many people.

>>14912504
you fucking retard

>>14912340
>its message
I'd love for you to tell me what you think its message is.

This book isn't important as a literary text, but it is a very popular coming-of-age story and interesting for capturing how a lot of teenagers and young adults feel about the world. One way of viewing it is as a character study of Holden Caulfield via his (not necessarily reliable) perceptions of the world that act as mirrors of things he is incapable of acknowledging/expressing about himself. The most famous example of this is how Holden Caulfield calls the people around him "phonies" while being unable to tell the truth himself. In the penultimate chapter, he excludes his imagination of an ideal, hermetic escape to only non-phonies ("If anybody tried to do anything phony, they couldn't stay") but the irony is that that excludes everyone, because there's nothing that can't be judged as being phony when Holden doesn't have access to other's thoughts to determine the sincerity of outward actions. This inability to judge moral sincerity is especially true in the treatment of love in the novel: kindness is often tinted with the dark, inexpressible underbelly of sex, while love is marred by the inevitable damages it causes. Holden thinks Mr Antolini was being "perverty", Phoebe is pushed down the stairs by a boy who likes her, and Holden's relationship with Phoebe is oddly hesitantly sexual and intimate ("Sometimes she's even too affectionate. I sort of gave her a kiss"). "The Catcher in the Rye" refers to a bawdy Robert Burns song that Holden mishears and misinterprets as being about saving children, which provides another jarring paedophilic undertone to something innocently kind, showing how kindness and sex can be interrelated by pure mishap, or Holden's obliviousness. No-one is excluded from being a phony because lying, hurting others and appearing to act hypocritically are all unpreventable.

This mishearing and misinterpretation of the lyrics of "Comin' thro the rye" is itself an important aspect of the novel and further emphasises the impossibility of the fulfilment of Holden's dream. Mr Antolini says that Holden is perhaps "looking for something [his] environment couldn't supply [him] with" and Holden is often engaged in quixotic fantasies of escape from his environment (such as the one he tells Sally, and the deaf-mute fantasy in the final chapter). One possible reason the catching dream is so impossible is that its objective lies in preventing the deaths of Allie and James Castle. However, by the end of the novel Holden does reach fulfilment in two ways: Phoebe and in the language of the novel itself. Phoebe shows Holden how there are more subtle ways in which we can be "catching" others in our daily lives, when she threatens not to go to school if Holden leaves ("I think I hated her most because she wouldn't be in that play any more if she went away with me"). Holden, by fulfilment of his social role instead of isolating himself, is both providing support and being a role-model for Phoebe. (1/2)

>>14912924
Language is what allows us to fulfil our social roles. The novel as a whole has 26 chapters, corresponding to the numbers of letters in the alphabet, and could be viewed in totality as the story of Holden developing a sincere and effective mode of communication with the world. Holden at the beginning of the novel has many idiosyncrasies in his narration ("goddam", "phony", "kid", "boy"," if you want to know the truth", etc.), and he remarks to Mr Antolini that he "flunked Oral Expression". To a certain extent these could be indicative of the particular danger he has of becoming solipsistic if he is unable to connect/communicate with the world around him. There is also an anxiety initially over whether Holden is expressing anything sincerely in the novel, as he says in chapter 8 "Once I get started [in lying], I can go on for hours if I feel like it. No kidding. Hours" which has potential applicability to the novel itself. The novel reaches its solipsistic culmination in "I'd thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend to be one of those deaf-mutes". Here, instead of communicating by spoken words, he'd communicate by a "goddam piece of paper". This fantasy can be viewed both as an attempt to isolate himself in a cabin from society (much like Eustacia Vye in Return of the Native or the man possessed by Legion in Mark 5, two important sources for this novel) and as acknowledgement that some things are difficult or impossible to be expressed orally. The latter seems to lead into the danger of the first. However, it is the novel itself that opens up the channels of communication for both oral and written expression for Holden, because it functions as both simultaneously. Holden has a continuously conversational tone with the reader from "If you really want to hear about it" (not "read" about it) at the beginning of the novel to "That's all I'm going to tell about" (not "write" about). The novel expresses something deep about Holden which he was unable to say during the events of, and perhaps it also fulfils an impossible dream of communication with Allie, who could be the "you" of "God, I wish you could've been there" in the final line of the penultimate chapter, or the intended reader of the entire novel. However, while Salinger appears optimistic in this final message, and it is certainly easy to see an underlying favouritism in the novel towards English teachers and people who enjoy novels/language (from Mr Antolini to the two nuns who talk about Romeo and Juliet with Holden), this final victory of language is not absolutely total. The penultimate line of the novel "Don't tell anybody anything." is most likely to be seen as ironic, but it is followed by the assertion "If you do, you start missing everybody." This final line realises the message that all social communication provides the wonderful channel for true feeling, but one cannot escape the inevitable pain and loss that comes with it. (2/2)

>>14912924
>Language is what allows us to fulfil our social roles. The novel as a whole has 26 chapters, corresponding to the numbers of letters in the alphabet, and could be viewed in totality as the story of Holden developing a sincere and effective mode of communication with the world. Holden at the beginning of the novel has many idiosyncrasies in his narration ("goddam", "phony", "kid", "boy"," if you want to know the truth", etc.), and he remarks to Mr Antolini that he "flunked Oral Expression". To a certain extent these could be indicative of the particular danger he has of becoming solipsistic if he is unable to connect/communicate with the world around him. There is also an anxiety initially over whether Holden is expressing anything sincerely in the novel, as he says in chapter 8 "Once I get started [in lying], I can go on for hours if I feel like it. No kidding. Hours" which has potential applicability to the novel itself. The novel reaches its solipsistic culmination in "I'd thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend to be one of those deaf-mutes". Here, instead of communicating by spoken words, he'd communicate by a "goddam piece of paper". This fantasy can be viewed both as an attempt to isolate himself in a cabin from society (much like Eustacia Vye in Return of the Native or the man possessed by Legion in Mark 5, two important sources for this novel) and as acknowledgement that some things are difficult or impossible to be expressed orally. The latter seems to lead into the danger of the first. However, it is the novel itself that opens up the channels of communication for both oral and written expression for Holden, because it functions as both simultaneously. Holden has a continuously conversational tone with the reader from "If you really want to hear about it" (not "read" about it) at the beginning of the novel to "That's all I'm going to tell about" (not "write" about). The novel expresses something deep about Holden which he was unable to say during the events of the novel but only after the fact, and perhaps it also fulfils an impossible dream of communication with Allie, who could be the "you" of "God, I wish you could've been there" in the final line of the penultimate chapter, or the intended reader of the entire novel. However, while Salinger appears optimistic in this final message, and it is certainly easy to see an underlying favouritism in the novel towards English teachers and people who enjoy novels/language (from Mr Antolini to the two nuns who talk about Romeo and Juliet with Holden), this final victory of language is not absolutely total. The penultimate line of the novel "Don't tell anybody anything." is most likely to be seen as ironic, but it is followed by the assertion "If you do, you start missing everybody." This final line realises the message that all social communication provides the wonderful channel for true feeling, but one cannot escape the inevitable pain and loss that comes with it. (2/2)

>>14912924
Language is what allows us to fulfil our social roles. The novel as a whole has 26 chapters, corresponding to the numbers of letters in the alphabet, and could be viewed in totality as the story of Holden developing a sincere and effective mode of communication with the world. Holden at the beginning of the novel has many idiosyncrasies in his narration ("goddam", "phony", "kid", "boy"," if you want to know the truth", etc.), and he remarks to Mr Antolini that he "flunked Oral Expression". To a certain extent these could be indicative of the particular danger he has of becoming solipsistic if he is unable to connect/communicate with the world around him. There is also an anxiety initially over whether Holden is expressing anything sincerely in the novel, as he says in chapter 8 "Once I get started [in lying], I can go on for hours if I feel like it. No kidding. Hours" which has potential applicability to the novel itself. The novel reaches its solipsistic culmination in "I'd thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend to be one of those deaf-mutes". Here, instead of communicating by spoken words, he'd communicate by a "goddam piece of paper". This fantasy can be viewed both as an attempt to isolate himself in a cabin from society (much like Eustacia Vye in Return of the Native or the man possessed by Legion in Mark 5, two important sources for this novel) and as acknowledgement that some things are difficult or impossible to be expressed orally. The latter seems to lead into the danger of the first. However, it is the novel itself that opens up the channels of communication for both oral and written expression for Holden, because it functions as both simultaneously. Holden has a continuously conversational tone with the reader from "If you really want to hear about it" (not "read" about it) at the beginning of the novel to "That's all I'm going to tell about" (not "write" about). The novel expresses something deep about Holden which he was unable to say during the events of the novel but only after the fact, and perhaps it also fulfils an impossible dream of communication with Allie, who could be the "you" of "God, I wish you could've been there" in the final line of the penultimate chapter, or the intended reader of the entire novel. However, while Salinger appears optimistic in this final message, and it is certainly easy to see an underlying favouritism in the novel towards English teachers and people who enjoy novels/language (from Mr Antolini to the two nuns who talk about Romeo and Juliet with Holden), this final victory of language is not absolutely total. The penultimate line of the novel "Don't tell anybody anything." is most likely to be seen as ironic, but it is followed by the assertion "If you do, you start missing everybody." This final line realises the message that all social communication provides the wonderful channel for true feeling, but one cannot escape the inevitable pain and loss that comes with it. (2/2)

>>14912255
That post killed me.

>>14912305
>In another book written by Salinger, it's mentioned offhand that Holden Caulfield died a few years after this novel was set on the beaches at Normandy.
Catcher takes place after the end of WWII you retard. Salinger himself fought at Normandy but you're just making shit up here.

why did he rape Phoebe?

>>14912504
lol, that's how emotional people are, thinking about stuff and thinking it all has meaning. I could explain it if I think about it enough but most people know what I'm talking about. it's a relatable book, not like, Euclid's elements or something.

>>14912962
yeah, well said, did you write this?

>>14912504

>>14913044
Shes soft pretty girl

>>14913607
Yeah I did, thanks for reading it

>>14912962
I absolutely agree with the first half of your post and find the second half to be very interesting. Quality contribution!

>>14912305
Not technically true. It was mentioned in his early short stories, but were retconned when he rewrote them for Catcher. Those stories were never republished into collections because they were just early drafts of Catcher.

Here's the stories if anyone wants to read them.
https://pastebin.com/AHfRYnf3
https://pastebin.com/GD8Nf94q

>>14912568
>You need to have an above average EQ
I detest people referring to "EQ" like it's a quantifiable entity, but it is astonishing how few people can appreciate the book properly, given its popularity. Almost every time it comes up I'm freshly astonished at the way people judge it as if Holden's outlook is the sincere thesis of the book. He's a sincere guy who's suffering. Some of it's on him and some of it's on the world outside.

>>14912568
If you're an intelligent 'sociopath', you absolutely understand why it's touching. The character is numbed to the world and is searching for substance & meaning.

>>14912568
>EQ

>>14912504
>so many stuff in this book is so random - e.g. Holden's mishearing of a song "Comin' Thro' the Rye"
I'm not even a fan of the book, but are you fucking serious?

>>14912255
I did a three month training placement in New York a few years back. Whilst there, I got to know a girl from the university that was administering the coursework for the placement. I knew, and so did she, that our respective careers were too important to us and that neither of us had the patience for a long distance relationship anyway.
In those three months, we essentially visited every New York landmark together, including the Met and the Central Park zoo. I read Catcher in the Rye because Sallinger's depiction of New York vividly reminds me of the time I spent with her.

>>14913025
He's not making things up you just haven't read what he has. There are short stories written contemporaneously with Catcher. In a way they are Catcher. One of them mentions this. I wouldn't call it canon since they are unpublished. Besides, he's right. It is about innocence.

>>14912924
>>14912962
There may not be anyone here who would care about this, but I've always thought that the visual novel Cross Channel was partly based on Catcher in the Rye. There are a lot of little similarities between the protagonists that caught me on to it (the idiosyncratic behavior, prematurely grey hair, etc.) but I was a bit unsure whether they were actually about the same thing -- but reading your posts I think that they actually are, as Cross Channel is about the importance of communicating with people and the protagonist's attempts to become "human," as well as an anti-suicide message. Anyway, it's not a one-to-one equivalence by any means but to anyone who likes Catcher in the Rye I'd recommend reading Cross Channel if you're into that sort of thing. None of the English translations available are particularly good but they manage to get the story across at least.

Phonies on /lit/ like to say that Franny and Zooey is the better book, but it isn't.

CitR is the only novel I've ever related to in any meaningful way.

>>14912292
dude keeping my highschool take well into my 30s lmao

>>14916216
which book mentions Holden dying?

i remember reading the book as a teen but not really caring for anything about the book asides from the beginning and end. a girl i fancied said "owoh you are so like holden claufield" and iirc she liked the book quite a bit. i have a very vivid image of the scene where he and his sister went to the go'round.

what does this say about me anon? ಥ_ಥ

>>14912924
Nice posts. But I disagree with the whole idea of paedophilic undertones concerning Holden's relationship with Phoebe. I don't see how sex and kindness could be related by "pure mishap, or Holden's obliviousness". I mean he's her brother. What made you come to this conclusion?

dude im a teen everything is lame except me im so smart lmao

>>14912924
The misinterpretation of the Burns poem isn't pedophillic, it just reaffirms that Holden's desire to protect children is purely fantastical. After all, Phoebe accurately recalls the poem yet is completely oblivious to its sexual content. Holden's desire to protect the innocence of children is just another facet of his own lost innocence, but also his maturation.

>>14919787
I'm sure if you rub your brain cell you can figure out why a WW2 vet decided to write in the voice of a whiny teen.

>>14918533

NPC detected

>>14912482
The teacher tried to molest him. It shows that even when adults seem nice and like they’re trying help they’re really just trying to get something from you.

>>14916216
>>14912568
>EQ
>Innocence
These things do not exist. They're liberal buzzwords

>>14912962
>Language is what allows us to fulfil our social roles
This is complete babble. People fulfill their social roles by obedience in action, not "language"
> The novel as a whole has 26 chapters, corresponding to the numbers of letters in the alphabet
Not intended, LMAO
CITR was a BTFOing of the neoserf- the abnormal life-stage of"Adolescence" and the schooling obedience-facilities

>>14920799
It's quite the contary. All the NPCs hated that book when I read it in school.
Anyway, why do schools force people to read this book? Must be to normalize its obscenity.

>>14919252
It means you had a missed opportunity to develop a deeper relationship with her.

>>14912255
like broh I'm such a doomer, im like deep and sheeit

>>14912255
I thought it was an alright coming of age book. Not something worth delving too deep on, but its an overall fun experience and gets the broad strokes of its message pretty alright. The stream of consciousness writing style was fun.

>I learned eastern philosophy and was on a quiz show when I was a kid so my life is ruined
>Also I am very smart and precocious ;)