/lit/ - Literature

Plato confirned for a fucking SIMP

Plato falls flato.

>>14911784
Even our queen dissmissed it as phony baloney.

>>14911784
The best people have to become guardians.
Acording to him the best will always be men (that is arguable but whatever) but that doesn't mean the position should be exclusive to men.
An example:
If you need 50 guardians, then the best 30 will be men, as they are superior to women, but maybe the best woman of all will be the 31st if we were to rank the aptness to the position. So she should be a guardian above the next best male, cause she is better suited than him.
It is perfectly logical and consistent with his model.

>>14911830
>that is arguable but whatever

>>14911830
hmmm not bad. I concede to your point.
I did have some retorts but I think it's answered by Plato's logic from earlier chapters where he proposes that people must go to the task which is most in-line with their nature.

>>14911784
There is no problem with Plato's logic here unless you add your own hidden claim of:
>All male guardians are better than the best female guardian
or more weakly:
>There are x amount of male guardians better than the best female guardian, where x is equal to the capacity of guardians in the republic.
There is no problem unless either one of the above is also true.
There may be a problem if we assume that there will be more women suitable individually to be guardians than spots available for them, but the same could be said of all the possible male guardians (i.e. there will be more individually suitable male guardians than the city's capacity for guardians in general). But all this presumably is taken care of by the noble lie and magical Pythagorean birth lotteries.

>>14911784
As his City is only an analogy for the mind the gender of Guardians are irrelevant to the philosophy of the book. He probably just added the part to troll some contemporaries with his "controversial" opinions.

>>14911830
This is what I was gonna say.
It may be that no women are better than men, but it's not unlikely that the best women are better than some men.

>>14911848
Sappho was considered through all antiquity as one of the greatest poets.
She was one of nine lyric poets, you can't get any more canonical than that.
She was better tha Pindar imo.
You need to read more.

>>14911859
>As his City is only an analogy for the mind the gender of Guardians are irrelevant to the philosophy of the book.
This is another question I have. Is the book supposed to be some sort of guide on how to construct a true city, or is it about justice for the individual. If the latter, why did he bother going into to suci incredibly minute details in constructing his city, when most of it has no bearing on the outcome?
>>14911858
>add your own hidden claim
Plato himself states that women are weaker than men. He even made a point to say that the Guardian women should be allocated easier tasks (aka. looks like we're being lax on Guardianship requirements) than the Guardian men, to compensate for their worse aptitude. In that case, is he not compromising the security of the city?

You're so fucking stupid Plato proves that might doesn't mean right, if you read Alcibiades you should know that the best person to rule is the one that brings the most virtue. Plato's point is that men and women are equal morally.

>>14912099
>Plato's point is that men and women are equal morally.
They aren’t though

>>14912110
Imagine being this beta

>>14912146
Simp.

>>14911877
It's very clear that it's not supposed to be a real city.

>>14911870
>Sappho was considered through all of antiquity as one of the greatest poets

Could you provide a citation from a veritable classical source for that, Sir?

>>14911784
unironically have sex

this is why aristotle is king

>>14911784
>lazy, overfed fuck being inept on internet
the book

>>14911877
>why did he bother going into to suci incredibly minute details in constructing his city, when most of it has no bearing on the outcome?
I have 3 theories, equally probable:
a) He wanted to provide some political commentary, so things that are not relevant to the structuring of the mind could be interpreted as commentary on governments
b) Penguin paid him by the page
c) Autism

How is this fucking hard. Republic has to fucking survive, and as this anon says >>14911858 there are going to be times when there some portion of women are better fitted to rule than some portion of the male guardians. The republic's survival supersedes your petty disagreements with women kind. Age will fix your ills, and if that can't nothing will. Judging from your post I assume this is around your first time reading a philosophical work.

>>14912534
Plato was inept on the internet? What did you mean by that?

>>14911877
>why did he bother going into to suci incredibly minute details in constructing his city
the soul is a reflection of the city, just like your soul is a reflection of the larger entities that comprise you and your life. "You" are a collection of habits that only make sense because the state sustains itself, the state makes things make sense. When Plato is speaking of a healthy state, he's painting an ideal image of a city that would produce good people, relations he thinks would be conducive to healthy minds. How you internalize or translate the smaller details of the republic back down to the soul (other than the 3 obvious correspondences) is at least food for thought.

>>14912156
So if it was meant to be about atttaining 'justice' for an individual, via analogy of a hypothetical city, please explain what purpose that shit about lying to children about their origins serves? Or about gender roles in society? Had he never brought up the gender roles I'd accept your point but as it saands there is no analogy that can be made from this.

>>14912809
So, for example, Plato suggests that people should not know their birth parents and should instead be told they are made of gold/silver (with gold being the guardians). The guardians are analogous to our rational mind - my understanding is that Plato's basically saying that our rational mind has to truly believe that we are special, in summary "just be confident bro". Bravo, Plato!

>>14912834
you aren't worth typing a response and you aren't ready to read Plato

>>14912790
fuck's sake, replace "internet" with "ancient rome forum" and "inept" with "inconsistent orator/articulator"
Why do you even read without having or practicing your abstract thinking (that's the whole point or a good read - being able to crack open the contents, encoded between the lines - a good story is the one told without uttering a single word of it... not directly, at least)

>>14912935
>rome
*greece

>>14911784
Women are better than men.

>>14912935
you are retarded, this post is gibberish, and you don't even know the difference between Greece and Rome. Kill yourself you stupid schizo nigger.

>>14913029
>literally no arguments
>REEEEEE KILL USELF
that's very kind of you to filter yourself out as an poorly written NPC who can't into discussion for shit. Toodles

>>14913290
>to filter yourself out
*right away