/lit/ - Literature

Solo scriptura is so dumb. How does anyone get caught up in it? Everything after the resurrection is about THE CHURCH continuing and growing. Do protestants forget about the Holy Spirit coming down and giving the apostles the power to forgive sins in God's name? Things like this point to a living continuation of the faith instead of letting it rot in scripture.

>>14910050
>Do protestants forget about the Holy Spirit coming down and giving the apostles the power to forgive sins in God's name? Things like this point to a living continuation of the faith instead of letting it rot in scripture.
Not the guys who do the oats. Nor some Unitarians (ironically).

>>14910050
>How does anyone get caught up in it?
well, that's what happens when you believe in God but you don't want to live under His rules.
>im already saved bro, it doesnt matter if i buttfuck another dude
that and tremendous hubris

>>14910050
They argue that at some point (it varies denomination to denomination) the Church lost its divine mandate after it was no longer useful. Yes, this makes God into a schizophrenic psychopath, all attempts to rationalize God do.

>>14910020
>or infallible cause cannot produce an infallible effect,
lay off the socratics LOL
does this mean that God is fallible or that Mankind is infallible? LMAO

>>14910020
Horrible argument. Makes sense that he would say this as he probably thinks Mary was sinless her whole life, and so was her mother, ad infinitum. Here’s a wacky idea: God made the Bible infallible, but not the people who wrote it.

>>14910241
fallible cause cannot produce infallible effect**
I am so sorry, I wrote it wrong

>>14910251
>>14910257

Imagine reading about the Pharisees and still being a papist.

>>14910272
>Matthew 23

>>14910272
cope? cope.
now let's hear the "rational" arguments

>>14910292
Arguments against what? Papist practices? Its called Scripture.

>>14910309
The Church created the scripture. fallible cause cannot produce infallible effect. If you take one you're taking the other one ;)

>>14910020
I like to remind people that their interpretation of the Bible is not necessarily a Heavenly interpretation. Since we cannot get rid of our own perceptions it is foolish to think that the scriptures are some kind of objective plain and simple facts spreadsheet. Those that do not see a depth to the word probably don't have a very good understanding of it in the first place.

>>14910317
Men moved by the Holy Ghost wrote the Scriptures.

>>14910251
So you're saying that God made the Church infallible when writing but fallible when interpreting?

>>14910320
Augustine has a great section in The Confessions on this. There being multiple interpretations, but that they should not be conflicting. His argument used Genesis as an example, but it's quite good. Then again...
>Expecting protestants to actually try and understand their faith.

>>14910327
And men moved by the Holy Ghost interpreted it for centuries until some german retard said that it was no longer canonical and any retard without training could interpret it canonically

>>14910342
So you concede that men moved by the Holy Ghost wrote the Scriptures and not the Church. Thank you. Have a great night.

>>14910342
Martin Luther witnessed the filth going on in Italy a long time ago, who knows why you can't see it for what it is today.

>>14910347
HAHAHAHA don't leave this wonderful conversation yet, my heretical friend...
I have something to tell you...
...those who were moved by the Holy Ghost
...were also...
[Spoiler]The Church!!!! HAHAHA[Spoiler]

>>14910358
>people sin so I leave :(
Is this your last argument? What does your scripture say about forgiving sinners?

>>14910376
Organizations of corrupt people don't repent from sin, because they encourage eachother to continue. It's what we call today "echo-chambers", groups of people that are united under the status quo and fuel eachother. It's much easier to just separate yourself from the filth and ignore their screeching.

>>14910390
>Corrupt people can't repent!
>Because I say so!

>>14910234
Ah, progressive theology. I see.

>>14910390
>Corrupt people can't repent!
And they still haven't, worshipping a dead non-virgin woman and pictures of meek dead servants.

>>14910436
>Calls Marian devotion worship
>Calls the mother of God a whore.
Why do you protties do this? Mary is the perfect foil of Eve(the woman who brought about the ruin of mankind through disobedience) and she is the shining example of what we all can actually be(be part of the salvation of mankind through obedience). Yes, to follow the path of Christ is what we aspire to, but Mary was human. She was not divine. She was the handmaid of the Lord and followed God's will. She suffered, as only a mother can, watching Christ die on the cross.

I'll pray for your blasphemous and hate filled heart to be softened, brother.

>>14910251
there is no concept of original sin in the Orthodox Church

>arguing over whose interpretation of jewish fairytales is better
lmao

>>14910020
if we follow the logic that
>le anything that comes from an infallible source is infallible too lmao
we must also commit heresy. Are we not spawned by a God who is infallible? Are we to hold ourselves as infallible? Not in the slightest. Does this then prove that God is fallible? Not in the slightest. The element that you are missing in your logic is the human element, which has a tendency to fuck things up quite a bit. Also the church is not an institution or collection of oligarchs, but a congregation. And a congregation is nothing but a collection of congregants. Each individual member composes the body of Christ. Also can we stop shitting up the board by tearing apart the last semblance of the esteemed western civilization we desperately cling to in our reading and focus on other religions? The hindus are a extremely strong faith due to the lack of denominations. The muslims included, I know they have like the two but the one gets shit on by the other one way more so its not really balanced. Daily reminder that Luther didn't want to break off from the catholic church, but thats just where the movement took him. It was called the Reformation. It was an attempt at reform. Why would one be a protestant, why would one protest, if one simply aimed to abandon ship? There are holes every where in your logic brothers fill them with love of God and hatred for the enemys of the church.

>>14910546
typical anglo reductionist take. you cant reduce a whole community, ecclesia in this case, to a single human being, and rebuild construct it upword - thats not how organic structures work. also, that argument is to prove the logical fallacy of proddie sola scriptura. in any case, the Church is infallible, with Holy Spirit working in them, etc etc. and look at what the reformation created - its just falling apart. have you seen burgerpunk churches? true abomination.

>>14910562
brother dont slander my name as anglo, I am a german, I was born into my faith, one has to abide by the traditions of their ancestors. And regarding you argument, how does it follow, now of this I am truly genuinely curious, that a composite of unclean parts suddenly becomes clean? And I am of your opinion with regards to the burgerpunk churches, but that came at a much later date and bears almost no semblance to the Lutheran protestant doctrine, but merely a perverted american protestant spirit, which is much more a ghoul, that supposes itself to be on the right side of history by simply pointing to a single point in time and justifying their own misdeeds by a misdeed that has been remedied at present (the buying and selling of indulgencies and other outdated modes the catholic church once indulged in)

>>14910583
anglo german, tomato to-ma-to. but really, i do see issues with roman catholicism at the day, and that is because they left the true church and the true ecumenical council and followed frankish notion of God, espoused by Augustine. If you think about it, Luther killed God ( I think Nietzsche said it but whatever.) By removing the mysticism, and mystery of God and making Him a mere object, a material to be investigated via the idea of everyman-a-bishop etc, it destroyed the religion. You cannot deny Luther's influence on Calvin, and when you really consider Calvin's viewpoints and arguments, its essentially proto-Marx - a materialism. Think of non-sensical idea of predestination. Lutherans are where they are, because as people branch out, some subgroup of that dissident population build their own mass and momentum and stay where they are. But the overarching influence of protestantism cannot be overlooked. Augustine begets Luther, Luther begets Calvin, Kant, Hegel, and Hegel begets Marx and the rest is history.

>that a composite of unclean parts suddenly becomes clean?
mystery, unironically. read early church fathers, i dont remember who it was, probably gregory nyssa or ignatius of lyon. and as for soteriological issue of western church, consider this

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/the-river-of-fire-kalomiros/

just think of gradient, and eventual consequence of broad, general spectrum of an idea.

>believing bible is the word of God
Time to grow up chaps. Old Testament covers the actions of an imperfect, vindictive deity who is neither all-powerful nor all-loving. Jesus talked about the true, perfect God who is removed from this world, but from which we all ultimately descend from. New Testament is a psyop hijacking of His message, twisted to coerce the masses into following a Kingdom of Man (the Church).
You right that solo scriptura is nonsense, but if you can know a single iota of european history and still think that the Church is the infallible, blessed mouthpiece of God on Earth, then you're completely deluded. Orthodox and Protestant both stray from the divine light.

>>14910583
you cannot deny the effect of linear, progressive understanding of history espoused by Augustine has led to current of state of being in the west. (which is intrincially tied to occidental church's understanding of salvation, and burger proddies' dispensationalism, but i digress)

>>14910618
What's the issue with everyman being a bishop? God explicitly stated His intention for Israel to be a nation wherein everyone is a priest (meaning everyone knows and engages with God/scriptures). And of course as we know Jesus extended God's favour for the Israelites to the gentiles as well. It follows that God would absolutely want for every human to be a priest in the same sense that Luther advocated for.

>>14910020
yeah it doesn't take a genius to realize sola scriptura is fucking retarded. the real question is why did the catholic church cancel itself because of the fucking flu? has God finally left?

>>14910020
sure thing bro i agree with that bro. have fun being in a church that within 10 years will be staging mass buttfucking orgies in st. peter's square. thanks for the great times btw it was nice getting to witness you guys crumble in real time. its been a real vindication for my ancestors against a tyrannical sodomite monarchy like yours. i assume orthodoxy falls next.

>>14910618
you made a lot of points and connections, which I haven't really read a great deal of every single name you dropped which was a multitude indeed. But Im interested to see how luther killed the 'mysticism' and where this mysticism was present in the catholic church? Do you believe that blatantly lying to the congregations to preserve some sort of mystery to be ethical? O buddy you gotta pay to get outta purgatorio, why, oh because we told you so. If so I can do without that mysticism. And fuck the toenail of john the baptist that shits gross no one wants that, and those fallacies were bound to be exploited by the increasingly skeptic scientific society (not saying I approve of progress to any degree) but simply saying that they were foolish to keep about their cute playthings and they would have caused a lot of fallout later on so it was generally a good thing to dispell those notions early on

>>14910640
its literally in book of acts - the church hierarchy.

>>14910653
im orthodox, not catholic. surely the link i sent you must have been a great hint.

and
>muh skeptic society
>>>/reddit/

orthodox church doesnt have so many weird dogmas as roman catholics do. some even interpret pre-Abraham torah as "allegory" (dispute between Greek and Russian, but whatever)

>>14910655
>Trust the Church, the Church is perfect.
>signed, the Church
And you buy in to that shit?

>>14910670
read the New Testament. thats how the Church started, really. and yes, that is the dogma. (really, more complicated than this, -see ignatius of lyon and etc, but you do you)

>>14910660
the Orthodox Church did not have time to develop such things because they were too busy having Kings over them like Ivan the Terrible. I mean how much Doctrine can be developed when you get murdered for not having a beard?

>>14910660
russian orthodox is protestant retard.

>>14910683
Palamas is actually from 1400s. and the autocephalous nature + greek/levantine tradition makes it difficult to introduce papal innovations via ex cathedral and etc unlike roman catholics. do accept the reality that you know not much about the eastern church, before saying reddit-tier nonsense.

>>14910689
>russian orthodox is protestant retard.

>>14910679
Yeah, an entire book written by the people founding the church, or otherwise compiled and edited by people founding the church.
Learn to trust in and follow Jesus rather than current epoch's Babylon.

>>14910694
cringe

>>14910683
>why no, I've never heard of the Byzantine Empire?
bruh

The notion that a omnipotent infinite god would bother to write a paperback collection of funny semitic stories to allow a small group of anti-mithraist priests to rule over the roman state is beyond ridiculous.

>>14910697
you just know a seething soiboi made that image

>>14910695
>Yeah, an entire book written by the people founding the church, or otherwise compiled and edited by people founding the church.
>Learn to trust in and follow Jesus rather than current epoch's Babylon.
>>>/usa/
if you dont have the new testament, which was compiled and canonized by the church, how do you even get ideas about jesus? book of thomas?

>>14910700

Millenia ago people like tacitus already knew they were nothing more than powerhungry bullshiters..The fact that the catholic church and its heretical branches had such a stranglehold over human tought for so long is nothing short of a disaster.

>>14910713
The NT gospels as well as other Gospels the Church refuses to recognize, all while keeping in mind that each document, if not intentionally lying in some places (via authorship or translation), is inevitably only a biased account of certain parts of Jesus' life and sayings.
Through reading all of them you get a better grasp on the person and understanding, through thematic and psychic overlap, what he was and wasn't actually saying.

>>14910691
Palamas condemned every single person that blocked got that wasn't part of the official Orthodox Church. does he love God or does he love his tribe called The orthodox Church? I get so sick of your church condemning others who searched for God. it was only from your people who I've heard condemn Catholic saints for no good reason other than they love their own football team and hate the other team.

This so-called man of God who hates God's children. How hypocritical. I will have to stand in faith and think that he said what he said to protect the young children who do not know any better, those who need some Guardian to help them. I don't doubt his experience but he is certainly not the only one who has seen or heard God. God is infinite which already would account for the essence and energy distinction. Theosis is an eternal process. That's why the smoke of her torment ascends forever.

>>14910020
Why do anti-Vatican II Catholics love The Young Pope so much?
https://vimeo.com/242043559

>>14910459
>Calls the mother of God a whore
You're jumping to conclusions.
Or do you yourself consider all married and bedded women to be whores?

Imagine seriously believing in an invisible sky jew

>>14910459
>mother of god

the eternal papist

>>14911054
Every 4 chan catholic is just an american who thinks all protestants are like evangelicals and has no idea that there are traditional protestant churches in other countries, but he has no other option

>>14910020
> pic
that show was very well-filmed, but weird and unexplainably too american.
that 15 min bisexual sex scene with no sound but breathing was a bit too much for me

>>14910546
This but you ruined the post by giving heathens too much credit. Hinduism (and consequently Buddhism) is weak because of their heterodoxy and Islam is ruined by its hadiths and mental gymnastics about Christ. As for infallibility, we know worldly things are not divine because they do not share the divine essence. Aquinas goes more into detail on this in Summa Theologica. I’ll find the Q and A tomorrow morning tho

The Protestant Reformation only took on because of Political reasons. It could have been just one of many complaints instead of getting so big.

But Northen euros were butthurt that the Treaty of Tordesillas divided the New World between Spain and Portugal. Their elites didn't know how to justify their desire for conqueatst with the faith of his people. So they gave their backs to the Holy Church. Absolutely shameful display of greed, jealously and disobedience, a repetition of the sins of Cain. No wonder Protestant societies got soon infected with industrialism and its accompanied degeneracy for generations and are now spiritually dead and in the process of going physically extinct.

This argument is stupid. Catholics do not believe that the writers of the Bible were infallible either. They just think that, at the time of writing, they were speaking infallibly because of God’s inspiration. This is what Protestants believe also: the writers of the Bible were divinely inspired, which is why they could write divine and infallible texts.

Catholicism relies on a misreading of the New Covenant. In the Old Covenant God had a specific centralised group, his “people”, which were the Israelites. In the New Covenant God has a diaspora of believers all around the world, from all sorts of ethnic groups, with no state or nationality binding them together, only their belief. Catholicism with its centralisation and assertion of itself as a political entity is simply reverting back to the Old Covenant. Trying to establish a new Israel that was already done away with in the New Covenant.

>>14910583
>one has to abide by the traditions of their ancestors
based. I shall remain a heretic then.

>>14910641
The Romans left Him willingly during the great schism.

>>14911312
Do you deny the divinity of Jesus?
Do you deny his incarnation through the blessed virgin Mary?

It is right and proper to call her the mother of God if you believe in both of those.

>>14910020
I wouldn't say that's the best argument against it
t. not a SS larper

I'd say the best argument is that there are a bazillion translations with minor differences which an infallible doc should not have lol

>>14910641
>Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’ ”

>>14911955
How is going to God-ordained mass 'tempting' God?

>>14911502
and i would rebuke you harsher were you to deny your heresy. Your ancestors brought you up in these lands, they died protecting your seed, and you have the gall to betray them? You and me brother have an understanding.

>>14910020
No. It's a good argument, but it conflicts with the notion that the authors of the Bible were guided by the Holy Spirit.

It'd be better to argue that sola scriptura implies a particular (retarded) reading that is literalist and simplistic. Jesus spoke in parables for a reason: he was expressing to man something that is not easily understood literally. Choosing to be retarded like the Protestants have done for five hundred years is not helping anyone, least of all the sinners of the world who actually need help and guidance.

>>14912270
>just ignore a global pandemic and live as you always do
>don't worry
>God will protect you from your own stupidity
Fuck off with thee, satan.

>>14912391
I didn't say anything about 'living' as you always do. I'm talking about the blasphemous statement that partaking in Christ's body and blood is somehow 'tempting' God.

>>14912480
What he's saying is that he cannot believe that the Catholic Church as cancelled mass nearly everywhere.

It is now all but impossible to celebrate the sacraments because of the flu.

you're invited anons

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcaJztFa4Ac

>>14912555
It's not the same, brother. I don't want people to think this a suitable replacement from the true joy that is celebrating mass. Especially on a day like today: The Solemnity of St. Joseph, spouse of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

I almost feel bad for the poor guy, he was the only one in the family that sinned.

>>14912480
>>14912491
Maybe you shouldn't reduce your faith to some stupid ritual and actually live by what you preach?
Next thing you'll tell me unbaptized babies go to hell because they don't fit into God's redemption account paragraph 211 line 75418.
Fucking ritualistic barbarians.

>>14912902
>Being such a bitter protestant and not understanding the joy and splendor to be found in the sacraments.
Maybe you should attend a Catholic mass for once in your life. You will understand how beautiful and moving it is compared to Brother Bob's 17th Street Fellowship of God Twice Reformed services.

>>14913080
>my rituals make me so happy that I can walk though the plague
So go have a mass in the middle of a volcano, you puritan faggot.
Definitely not a temping God situation at all.
Man I despise fuckers like you.

>>14913101
You are being so mean-spirited and disengenious. Why? I am merely lamenting that there is no way to celebrate the sacraments. Just as some people are lamenting other restrictions.

>>14910198
>the guys who do the oats
I chuckled at this

>>14911497

>"Catholics are elitists"
>Catholic literaly means "universal" in Ancient Greek. They called them that, bc catholics admited members of all kind

Not a very good argument, desu.

>>14911497
yes, we do believe that the Church is infallible. any questions?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infallibility_of_the_Church

>>14913131
I'm being mean spirited because I'm calling out literal mad fuckers who says that you should ignore basic fucking reasoning because muh sacrament and risk your life and that of others because of their own vainglory they attribute as God's?
You know what. You're right, I am mean spirited. Can't imagine why.

>>14913363
Yes.
If the KJV Bible was good enough for Paul, is it good enough for everyone else?

>>14911724
She was a virgin vessel.
And then some time after Jesus was born, probably a month or two after, who the fuck knows: Mary's husband, Joseph, fucked her and Jesus later on had brothers because of this.
She never died a virgin. If you think otherwise, you are an idiot.

>>14913363
Wow. You didn't even try to understand what I was saying.
>Catholics do not believe that the writers of the Bible were infallible.
This is correct. Catholics do not believe that everything Paul said, for example, was true. Otherwise they'd literally have to believe that Paul was correct in denying Christ and persecuting Christians when he still did. The distinction that has to be made is what I said:
>They just think that, at the time of writing, they were speaking infallibly because of God’s inspiration. This is what Protestants believe also: the writers of the Bible were divinely inspired, which is why they could write divine and infallible texts.
>>14913265
The etymology of the world is irrelevant and I wasn't attacking them for being elitists. I was attacking them for trying to be a centralised political entity like they've been throughout history and are even now to a lesser extent. The New Covenant did away with Israel; the Catholic Church attempted to reinstate it. At least try to understand what I'm saying before you respond.

>>14913580
This unelequent barbarian is correct.
Caths have a really freaky deal going with Mary worship. I can stomach veneration of the saints, but something just rubs me the wrong way every time someone says 'the virgin mary' and I don't know why.

>>14913683
wikipedia: "The perpetual virginity of Mary is a Christian doctrine which teaches that Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ, was a virgin ante partum, in partu, et post partum - before, during and after the birth of Christ.[2] It is one of the four Marian dogmas of the Catholic Church,[3] meaning that it is held to be a truth divinely revealed, the denial of which is heresy.[4]"

also wikipedia: "Both Catholic and Orthodox Christianity recognise Mary as Aeiparthenos, meaning "ever-virgin".[21] Thomas Aquinas said that reason could not prove this, but that it must be accepted because it was "fitting",[15] for as Jesus was the only-begotten son of God, so he should also be the only-begotten son of Mary, as a second and purely human conception would disrespect the sacred state of her holy womb.[16] The 2nd century Protoevangelium of James has a similar message, describing how the hand of the midwife who attempted to test the holy mother's integrity by inserting her finger into Mary's vagina burst into flames and withered.[22]"

In short: Catholic church kept adding dumb shit ontop of dumb shit, which is why the Catholic version of the Bible should be regarded as a taint.

>>14913683
>worship
We do not worship Mary. We venerate her along with the other saints in heaven that they might intercede on our behalf. Protestants are so dumb in this regard. Why should I ask for those still living to pray for me, but not those already in Heaven?

I see it as a subtle rejection of eternal life and the final resurrection. They view our physical death as absolute. What nonsense.

>>14913660
Paul was infallible when he became part of the Church, not before. The Church is infallible

>>14910020
God is up my ass christtard

>>14910641
Turning God knows how many people who attend to mass into potential vectors for the coronavirus isn't the wisest thing to do.

>>14914000
Still didn't find him up there? Just got to look deeper

>>14913750
Didn't know having a baby was some kind of evil sin and that James was just probably adopted maybe.
At least Aquinas had the decency to admit that it's a custom than anything else.
>>14913797
I get the veneration part, but Mary is a very VERY special case for you guys. Especially the clinging that she was a perpetual virgin after the birth of Christ. I mean, was poor Joseph incapable and James was adopted or what?

>>14914339
The point is that Mary was the Immaculate Conception. That God picked her specifically to make The Word flesh. To then have her blessed womb give birth to another human that is anything but divine... is absurd. Nobody is saying that children are disgusting, that sex between a married couple is an abomination, merely that for Mary, the literal mother of God, to conceive anything other than Christ would be irreconcilable with her role in mankind's salvation.

It just goes back to protestants having some sort of hang up with many parts of Jesus Christ's teachings and life being literal, instead of figurative.

>>14913952
“The church is infallible” doesn’t mean every single member of the church is infallible. Catholics don’t even believe the Pope is infallible except when he speaks ex cathedra. You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.

>>14910020
sola scriptura doesnt mean that the scripture in infallible. It means that scripture is the only infallible source.

Generally protestants do not hold the church of, say, 400AD, to be corrupt.

>>14914456
not every member, but the consensus within the church. The results that the Church promote are infallible. Then, when the Church determines that st. Paul letters are part of an infallible canon, it is infallible.

>>14914471
When you say scripture is the only infallible source you are literally saying that scripture is infallible.

>>14910020
>for infallible cause cannot produce an infallible effect
Did you mean a fallible effect? Anyway, that sounds like nonsense. An infallible cause producing fallible effects is the basis of Christianity.

>>14914520
no, thats a fairly basic logical failure on your part.

My garden contains apples. My garden is not apples.

>>14914515
Yes and Paul was fallible you utter retard. Fallible person created an infallible thing according to Catholicism, which is precisely what this post is saying is impossible.

>>14914710
Tell me how scripture can be the only infallible source if scripture is not an infallible source? You want to talk about logic.

>>14914742
I thought my anaology was clear enough.
Scripture can contain infallible material without being infallible.

If you were asked to write a paper on the government of 12th century Sweden, would you consult the government of 21st centuary sweden, or the primary sources of 12th century sweden? Only one of these would contrain truely accurate material, even if it wasfrequently confused about geography

>>14914728
fallible person who became infallible by the Holy Spirit

>>14914728
If Paul was fallible, then even the sola scriptura is bullshit, as the effect cannot be infallible when the cause is fallible

>>14914687
>>14910257

>>14915168
>blaspheming against the Holy Spirit
Yikes.

>>14915134
YES THATS LITERALLY WHAT I SAID IN THE ORIGINAL POST. Holy fuck you are impossible to deal with. I hope not all catholics are this retarded.

>>14915543
the holy spirit remains in the church, don't forget that

>>14915551
I'm just saying anon is forgetting that scripture IS divinely inspired. And failures of interpretation is why we have Tradition.

>>14915546
i'm not the same anon lol but yeah i think i misinterpreted your post, Hail Mary

>>14914405
>for Mary, the literal mother of God, to conceive anything other than Christ would be irreconcilable with her role in mankind's salvation
Why? It literally makes no sense.
So why have Joseph marry her at all then? Just to cuck him twice?