/lit/ - Literature

>>14878456
Do animals?

>>14878456
>>14878512
Yes.

>>14878512
>>14878876
How do you know? What about baby animals?

>>14878456
>scientifically speaking
I think that's actually an interesting question. We know that an ability as basic as visual recognition takes time to develop, in a similar manner, one might claim, as how it takes time for an artificial neural network to be trained to categorize the things it's meant to categorize.
In a sense, a newborn is blind because although it has fully functional eyes (I think) and a fully functional brain, the neural networks responsible for identify and categorizing visual stimuli haven't been identified yet.
>qualia
is there a precise definition of this term? I'm thinking it might be possible for an infant to be rudimentarily conscious of certain things, to some minimal extent.

>>14878456
>I have myself seen jealousy in a baby and know what it means. He was not old enough to talk, but whenever he saw his foster-brother at the breast, he would grow pale with envy. This much is common knowledge. Mothers and nurses say they can work such things out of the system by one means or another, but surely it cannot be called innocence, when the milk flows in such abundance from its source, to object to a rival desperately in need and depending for his life on this one form of nourishment?

>>14878908
*the neural networks responsible for identifying and categorizing visual stimuli haven't been trained yet*

>>14878908
>In a sense, a newborn is blind because although it has fully functional eyes (I think)
It has partially functioning eyes. They see everything upside down and I believe they're partially colorblind

>>14878456
It's been proven that infants can feel pain so probably a minimal amount of qualia are present.

A biological explanation for the reason that infants have so little cognitive function has to do with the insulation of neurons. There is an insulating material called myelin which insulates the electrical signals against the extracellular environment. Infants have brains which are still developing, one of the normal developmental steps is to myelinate the neuron fibers (axons). When these axons are poorly insulated, thoughts can't be formed as effectively.

>>14878456
My 10 month old crawls away when I catch him doing something he knows I don't approve. He'll also flip through Green eggs and ham and stare at each page. He's got something going on up there.

>>14878921

They cant see shit and their brain isn't developed. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1993/05/10/to-see-and-not-see has story of Virgil who has a surgery late in his life to restore vision that he's lost for 40 years. He can't see or differentiate shit despite having functioning eyes., the article talks a lot about how the brain develops to see and how much is devoted just to processing vision.

Oliver Sacks has some good books on this, like this one.

>>14878456
Also, I met a doctor once who claimed that young children not forming memories is a sign that they're not conscious. I told her that's retarded since being drunk enough to "black out" the next day is also due to impaired memory consolidation, yet nobody would claim a drunk isn't conscious (unless they're literally unconscious lel)

>>14878921
They see everything upside down and they're colorblind
that's not because of their eyes anon, it's because their brain hasn't learned to categorize sensation

Yes because I remember opening my eyes as a baby for the first time. Have confirmed the details with my parents who were there: where we were, what was happening, what I saw, etc.

Infants perceive qualia. That you even have to ask shows just how far gone the West is. May God have mercy on your souls.

>>14879035
1/10 babby's first bait

>>14878456
Yes, something that does not have qualia cannot develop qualia, humans have qualia -- therefor they had qualia as an infant.

>>14878965
>My 10 month old crawls away when I catch him doing something he knows I don't approve. He'll also flip through Green eggs and ham and stare at each page. He's got something going on up there.
Spiders also crawl away when you catch them doing something and shine a light. As do cockroaches. Do bugs have qualia? Some bacteria have appendages and sensory capabilities. Do they have qualia? Plants know where the light is. Qualia?

>>14879040
lol, you really are fucking NPCs who have their first conscious thought at 25, pathetic

>>14878979
You could argue that getting that drunk means losing qualia. Have you ever sleepwalked? Did you remember it? Did you have qualia at the time?

>>14879054
every outside has an inside. a child understands this.

>>14879035
>Yes because I remember opening my eyes as a baby for the first time.
Physiologically impossible. Great bait mate I rate 8 out 8 :))

>>14879062
So plants have qualia? What is "outside and inside?" Every penis has a vagina; a child understands this

>>14879065
>noooo b-but the scientific literature said

whether or not it was my first time, I do indeed have memories of opening my eyes as an infant and being carried in my father's arms. you're probably not even sapient at age 30

>>14879071
everything that reacts to the environment has a center of intentionality in and through which stimuli are received and a reaction is deployed. if you're telling me the inner life of an organism displaying a pain/fear response is "internally" indistinguishable from a rock's, you live in a fucking cartoon

>>14879076
explicitly ignored
>>14879096
So cockroaches have qualia? PS qualia is the experience of experience. Like you can feel pain when you're sleep walking but you have no qualia.
You live in a fairy tale
>b-but muh baberino has qualia, r-right?!?!?!

I remember as an infant having quality and i have a good memory. This destroyes your argument

>>14879122
>qualia means experience of experience

retard can't even into the sentience =/= sapience distinction. kill yourself.

>>14879134
Not what I'm talking about. Your heckin baberino isn't even sentient. It just reacts but like a computer or a bug there's nothing inside

>>14879145
that's a mirror

It's animism. That's all there is. Just people peopling people until the end of eternity. You can go home now.

>>14878979
When my father was enough beers deep I am certain he was simply 'not there'

>>14879145
>>14879122

Weak assertions and questions, no direct statements or arguments. If you're 19 or younger it's understandable but if you're above 20 I hope you are aware that you're retarded.

>>14878979
>who claimed that young children not forming memories is a sign that they're not conscious.
How stupid. They do form memories, they're just not persistent until adult life. Usually children even talk before they form persistent memories.

>>14879145
just like women and non-whites

>>14879378
Based

>>14879378
rather a woman or non-white than an edgy cringelord

>>14878456
fix