/lit/ - Literature

To be more precise... all I mean by 'biological death' is your own empirical death i.e. your inevitable end. And by cosmic death I mean the death of the universe.

>>1485525

>So my question is this /lit/. What is intellectually more terrifying? Cosmic death or biological death?

I don't give a shit about the universe OP. I'm only worried about surviving high school.

Christfag here, so to answer your question neither of them. Since my beliefs hold that I will ascend to a higher form if my deeds are good enough. If not, oh well, I'll be cast down for my punishment.

However, I do see your stand point from the scientific point of view. I would have to say, that if I didn't hold my current beliefs, that the cosmic death would be more terrifying. Because then it wouldn't be my own failure, and lack of point in existence, it would be everyone's, everything's lack of point in existence.

>The more I think how incredibly pointless the universe is

just because you can't comprehend something, doesn't make it pointless. If there is no objective truth, how can it be objectively true that there's no objective truth?

>The crushing part is that in a cosmic sense my existence amounted to nothing, in the same way that human existence in a cosmic sense amounts to nothing!!
That's because you were led to believe that your existence and your actions matter. You just are. the universe just is. it was never supposed to be anything else.

Everything that ends has a beginning.

>The crushing part is that none of it mattered -- my existence, our existence, the sun, and even the universe itself. None of it mattered, all these big cosmic events amounted to differences that didn't make a difference.
Don't judge things on a cosmic scale. You sound like you're having an existential crisis. Get into some indian philosophy. samsara, yuga, maya, moksha, atman, all that shit. Get into determinism and quantum physics. After you get over this you'll realise hwo you don't actually know shit right now.

Yeaaaah my only answer to you is that you just kind of have to ignore the ultimate crushing futility of existence, the massive pointlessness of human attempts to create anything, the tremendous triviality and unimportance of everything we will ever do, the sting of mortality, etc, etc and move on. Just... don't think about it. Pretend that life is meaningful and that all these tiny things we as humans do actually matter, and that we're not going to die shortly.

http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/b/browne/thomas/hydriotaphia/#chapter5

I can respect this position. I think Primo Levi once said that 'the aims of life are the best defense against death'.

I'm not worried about life though.

>>1485546
didnt Primo Levi kill himself out of survivors guilt?

>>1485542
I thought I liked you but you are just an idiot.

>>1485542

>just because you can't comprehend something, doesn't make it pointless. If there is no objective truth, how can it be objectively true that there's no objective truth?

You are a pseudo-intellect (and it shows).

>>1485540

>Christfag here, so to answer your question neither of them. Since my beliefs hold that I will ascend to a higher form if my deeds are good enough. If not, oh well, I'll be cast down for my punishment.

In a way, this is precisely what I'm against. The christfag, and the secular guy that tell you to just forget about it and just 'enjoy life' are as bad as each other. I'm ok if with people want to flee cosmic death, and the meaningless of life, with poems, art, and speculative rumination about god but I'm more interested in taking the meaningless of cosmic existence to its total end. I don't want to pussey out. I want to think through it and take it right to the end.

>>1485568
thanks broski, you wanna talk about it at least?

>>1485575
Sure. Just answer one question:

If life had a predetermined meaning would it be worth living?

>>1485571
If you're not going to listen to the cristfag or the secularfag, then that's your choice, but there's no one left to listen to after that.

Write a book about it, OP.

>>1485564
>>1485564

Primo pussied out as well. They all pussey out in the end - even my dear Nietzsche.

Rather than hiding from what you know, work on changing how you react to what you know. Learn to want things to be exactly as they are, since it's not the facts that are the problem (you aren't going to change those), it's your reaction to the facts. Work on replacing every "That's how things are" with "That's how I would have things be."

Read Spinoza I guess.

I felt like this for a while. Then I started reading Leaves of Grass. Whitman is just so happy and optimistic that you really can't help but feel hopeful.

>>1485578
Yes. Why wouldn't it be?

> What is intellectually more terrifying? Cosmic death or biological death?

I guess some people are more terrified by cosmic death. Just as much as humans can not comprehend infinity, they can't endure the thought of an end to all things.
But the point here is death, meaning one's own end. Whether it be cosmic or biological.
People who believe in some kind of afterlife arent even pertained by any of these things, since their metaphysical bullshit dream is not connected to the cosmos of physics.

The realisation that life is "pointless" lead many people into suicide. Be they zen-buddhists or existentialists (the two things are more closely related than any of the people who adhere to either one of them would want to believe). But usually people are outfitted with the ability to suppress such basic insecurities. That lead some people to the conclusion that such existential thoughts are the result of a chemical imbalance in the brain, the same that causes depression.

And yes, its widely believed that Primo Levi killed himself because he could not endure the randomness of his survival of the holocaust while so many others died in the camps. There is not proof of it, though.

>>1485589
Lack of choice.

>>1485525
>/lit/ how do stop thinking about existence?

>>1485540
the Christfag here

>>1485571

So, did you not read the rest of my post? I put myself in your shoes and looked at it the way you are. Since I've gone to college, I didn't have my parents pushing me to go to church anymore, and I gave a good thought about my beliefs, and what you're talking about is something I pondered. And I finally settled on my beliefs. While I am openly admitting to my beliefs, I'm also expanding and answering the question in your post.

Just hear me out is all I'm asking

>>1485525
read alan watts, bro

>>1485579

No I just think we should find some way of talking about cosmic death that doesn't just invoke the whole 'don't worry about it and live life' response.

We shouldn't try to psychologize questions about nihilism or cosmic death or try to blame the arrival of such questions on the post-modern condition, post-industrial capitalism or on the imperfections of modern-mans psyche.

There are no easy outs to this question, and this is why I like it.

>>1485610
>>1485610

I have read and listened to Watts. He pussied out too (with some kind of strange eco-vitalism).

>>1485610
yes and start taking acid every fucking day and move to india
that'll fix your reality

http://lastubermensch.blogspot.com/2010/11/free-will.html

Read and Comment.

>>1485593
>That lead some people to the conclusion that such existential thoughts are the result of a chemical imbalance in the brain, the same that causes depression.

I'm glad you picked up on this. I think the 'chemical imbalance' response is essentially on par with the political response which attempts to blame everything on 'X', be it capitalism or something societal.

there is no difference between life and death

the universe, in logical time, has already ended

I am the best.

>>1485621

well faggettrollOP. Existence obviously amounts to something, otherwise it would not be here. Just because there are other philosophers and people like myself out there that refused to be scared of vast cosmos doesn't mean they 'pussied out'. Quite the opposite. Your the only whiny bitch here. Kindly go fuck yourself

>>1485631

This was Nietzsche's point, when he says humans are just a peculiar type of dead thing.

I'll admit that defining death in a biological sense is difficult, but I think cosmic death is a little easier to define. We can call it negentropic dissipation (perhaps biological death can be defined in the same way).

>>1485625

i dont take acid and i dont live in india.

I am highly content.

I can already tell im living a healthier and more mentally stable life then the op.

but this is funny to watch, so i will sit back and giggle at his naive nihilism phase i went through when i left my parents religion, in the 6th fucking grade.

Fucking faggot.

Honestly, the only reason I get up in the morning is for the hope of seeing/taking a part in creating the technological singularity.

Once that happens I can happily die and/or upload my consciousness to a computer.

It's sort of an out of sight out of mind type of thing for me. The death of the universe is such a long ways off that the threat of my biological death seems more readily apparent.

Death is not an event of life. We do not live to experience death.

If by eternity is understood not endless temporal duration but timelessness, then he lives eternally who lives in the present.

Our life is endless in the way that our visual field is without limit.

>>1485525
I never got depressed over the insignificance of my own life, in a "cosmic" sense as well.

Its no different then finding out that all living things die, or that you will never live to experience technology of the future, or that santa claus is not real.

You have already died if you stop enjoying thinking about these things just because of some insignificant truth.

>>1485631
please to be proving the universe had ended

From what viewpoint are you seeking validation? You say that nothing ever amounts to anything and existence doesn't matter, but from who's perspective? Life is what you make it, sir. I suggest you look into eastern philosophy which quite directly addresses the idea of overcoming such conceptions as "good" and "bad."

>but I think cosmic death is a little easier to define. We can call it negentropic dissipation

you can call it wibbledywiddledywobblegoo for all I care

>>1485650
Illiterate on my /lit/?

>>1485633

I liked Watts (please don't get me wrong). I'm just not convinced that conceiving of ourselves and our existence as "the earths eye's looking back at it-self" is at all helpful. In the end Watt's take home message is that 'we shouldn't worry about such stupid things as cosmic death'.

How is this reply 'not' just a romantic escape on par with those presented by christfags and secularist pin-heads.

>>1485644

>Our life is endless in the way that our visual field is without limit.

This is stupid.

>Death is not an event of life. We do not live to experience death.
Wittgenstein actually said something like this at the end of the Tractatus. Heidegger had made this point before him though.

>>1485654
No, I am just not interested in conceptual grasping, that much was demonstrated when I said there was no difference between life and death.

>>1485664

That whole post is a direct quote of the Tractatus.

Also, Wittgenstein wrote the first drafts of the Tractatus while Heidegger was still finishing his dissertation, so Heidegger did not make this point before him.

>>1485669
Hmm.

Ok. What do YOU think is the difference between Life and Death?

>>1485643
>Honestly, the only reason I get up in the morning is for the hope of seeing/taking a part in creating the technological singularity.

This is escapism. You are a pussey.

>>1485646
>I never got depressed over the insignificance of my own life, in a "cosmic" sense as well.

This is because you are a dilettante.

>In a billion years from now our universe will collide with the andromeda galaxy

What the fuck am I reading?

>>1485677

ITT: OP no longer wanting to discuss his idea, and now judging everyone's belief's

>>1485657

'cosmic death' is an idea contrived by the modern meme pool. We are literally a grain of dust amongst an entire ocean that is, at the present, incalculable. Do you really think a few moderately adult gangly bacterial life forms on the dust speck earth, looking at telescopes and radiation waves can determine anything for certain about the universes existence 14 billion years in the past or in the future? No one has any record of what this place looked like 10 thousand years ago, which is a single in second in cosmic time- and your dumb ass wants to talk about cosmic DEATH? No scientist has ever seen or replicated any big bang or cosmic death. Its all metaphysical speculation based off of arcane mathematical symbols and rays of radition we've only been studying for less then an picosend in cosmic time. By hard, empirical standards, its miasmic speculation, so stop worrying.

>>1485664

>Also, Wittgenstein wrote the first drafts of the Tractatus while Heidegger was still finishing his dissertation, so Heidegger did not make this point before him.

Literally a few years difference here. I'm not sure you want to compare Heidegger's exploration of death against Wittgenstein's though - given that Witty appears to have written only a few words on the subject, whereas Heidegger gave death pride of place in most of his work.

Witty didn't explicate the various modalities of death proper to man, whereas Heidegger did. I don't care though, since I think they are both wrong when it comes to death (heidegger especially).

The universe is too amazing for something -- a sentient being of sorts -- not to be behind it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6w2M50_Xdk

Or maybe this is all a dream...ooooh

>>1485690
i used to read word up magazine

>>1485685

i like this nigga.

>>1485677
>You are a pussey.

So?

>>1485685
>Do you really think a few moderately adult gangly bacterial life forms on the dust speck earth, looking at telescopes and radiation waves can determine anything for certain about the universes existence 14 billion years in the past or in the future?

Errr...Yes?

>>1485525
>So my question is this /lit/. What is intellectually more terrifying? Cosmic death or biological death?

What is more terrifying is your juvenile responses to other peoples belief grids. "Your just a pussy"? Are you kidding? The mormons who knocked on my door yesterday gave more well thought out responses then you, and they're retarded

>>1485638
>This was Nietzsche's point, when he says humans are just a peculiar type of dead thing.
>dead thing
>dead
>no difference between life and death

way 2 to totally miss the point btw

>>1485703

>Errr...Yes?

well im sure the gangly bacteria on the first few layers of your flesh are freaking out in the exact same way about the 'imminent cosmic death' thats going to come when you collide into mattress in exactly 10 billion bacterial years.

FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR THE UNKNOWN OP. FEAR DEATH. FEAR THAT WHICH YOU WILL NEVER KNOW OR KNOW THAT YOU KNOW NOTHING.

Seriously though if you want to be afraid your whole life that's fine, most people are, but nothing is forcing you to.

>>1485711
Me likey.

Nietzsche was NEVER a Nihilist. He was in fact looking into means to fight Nihilism by introducing the idea of an Ubermensch.

>>1485713
You mean that the sun does NOT heat up the earth?

>>1485677
>This is because you are a dilettante.

Not quite. I guess creative writing is the most artful stuff I produce, but I'd consider myself more /sci/ than /lit/

> /lit/ how do stop thinking about existence?

> What is intellectually more terrifying? Cosmic death or biological death?

I am not surprised that you ask the second question after reading the first. You couldnt judge anything intellectually for the hell of it.

I'm the opposite OP, realizing the futility of my existence gives me the precious "I don't give a fuck about anything" attitude. Cause if nothing matters in the long run, there's nothing to be worried about.

ITT: OP assumes that he knows that the Big Freeze will happen over the Big Crunch

>>1485721
>Nietzsche was NEVER a Nihilist. He was in fact looking into means to fight Nihilism by introducing the idea of an Ubermensch.
no shit, eternal recurrence etc. and totally irrelevant to what I am saying.

>>1485711

I just assumed Nietzsche was being poetic.

>>1485709

I told you I'm totally against the idea that we should forget about cosmic death and live life etc.. etc..

It is clearly a banal type of non-reply that doesn't address the concern but only side-steps it. This is why I called you a pussey. I don't want to deny knowledge in order to make room for faith (a la Kant) or forget the question all together and play snooker (a la Hume). I want to address the questions at hand. I'm sorry if this offends you.

>>1485657

>alan watts blah blah blah

No. Alan Watts thought the universe was completely meaningless. And to him, this was funny. Ergo, he laughs heartily in every single one of his lectures, talking to people about the meaninglessness of the tao, the universe, existence. Now i will read one of my favorite lines from lao tzu's "Hua Hu Ching" which i find entirely relevant to this situation;

"The tiny particles which form the vast universe are not tiny at all.

Neither is the vast universe vast.

These are simple notions of the mind, not universal truths.

the OP is a faggot."

I don't think either has to be terrifying, really. It's just inevitable.
And, rather than focusing on the apparent meaningless of life, the universe & everything, why don't you just try & make a meaning for yourself? In making there be a point for your existence, maybe you can stumble across some profound meaning for the rest of it. Or if not, at least you're better off than the cosmos, right?

>>1485738

hail eris, brother

i am sorry

>>1485722

>Not quite. I guess creative writing is the most artful stuff I produce, but I'd consider myself more /sci/ than /lit/

You can wait for some kind of technological singularity if you want. I'm just not sure if such a hypothetical singularity should be your life's primary motivating factor.

>Seriously though if you want to be afraid your whole life that's fine, most people are, but nothing is forcing you to.

Intellectual terror is a little bit different from existential terror, or some kind of fear.

I don't fear the unknown. In fact I would say the terror happens when there is no unknown. If we know about cosmic death I don't quite see how this can be considered as 'fearing the unknown'.

>>1485657

also, Alan Watts talks about cosmic death all the time. Maybe not in the stephen hawkings way of things; he does it within the hindu frame of mythology- he says this is inevitable, and that it will be a hell of a ride. Do you disagree?

>>1485751

>he does it within the hindu frame of mythology

>>1485758

Really, if you 'read' alan watts, you shouldn't be surprised. and don't know this, you don't 'read' alan watts.

now, will you join our cthuhlu cult?

>>1485751
>>1485737

Watts is a fucking vitalist. He is still concerned with life. I'm talking about the radical end of life and our ability to think that end.

Anthropomorphising atoms, protons, and super-strings is fucking stupid.

>>1485750
>You can wait for some kind of technological singularity if you want. I'm just not sure if such a hypothetical singularity should be your life's primary motivating factor.

I do look forward to it, but thats not my primary motivating factor, which is more down-to-earth.
I have motivations across all areas of life, all of which I find joy in.
It seems childish to isolate yourself into pursuing a single intellectual thing.
Its like being a vegetarian, without the purpose of saving animals.
Or going on a diet, except all you lose is pleasure in life, and possibly intellectual capacity.

Cosmic death isn't anything that would mean universe caesas to be. It will just become even colder, emptyer and darker than it already is or all mater will collapse into single massive black hole, depending on how much dark energy is there in the universe. It's not that reality will cease to be.

>>1485766


All beliefs are phases.

When you run through this one and look back and see you flustered over nothing more than a few phantasmagorical thoughts that gripped your fleeting attention a tad more so then 'vitalism' or 'christfaggotry', you will giggle- even over cosmic death

>>1485775

>a few phantasmagorical thoughts

A nice little pedagogy man.

>>1485682
I know right?

>>1485767
I was the one that said that achieving the technological singularity was my primary motivating factor for living. I'd like to take that back and say that it's not the only reason I live. What I really meant to say is that it's one of the top 3 goals on my bucket list. Is having a bucket list a futile effort? Probably, but I'm ok that with that.

I guess cosmic death doesn't worry me because I'll never experience it. Believe me, I've spent some time thinking about it, but I just decided to stop worrying because it's either inevitable and I won't be able to do anything to stop it. Or the theory of a cosmic death is completely wrong and it won't happen anyway. Either way I'll never live to find out if it's true.

It bothers me more to know that I'll never live to see cosmic death, than the idea of cosmic death occurring itself.

>>1485525
Watch Jersey Shore and listen to Nickelback, then go shoot some hoops with your bros. That should take your mind of anything intellectual at all.

Ignorance is bliss

>>1485642

>more mentally stable life

"Show me a sane man, and I will cure him for you." -- Carl Jung

>>1485843

i read jung all the time. I be stable, but that doesnt mean im not mad

>>1485525

>/lit/ how do stop thinking about existence? The more I think how incredibly pointless the universe is, and how fleeting my time on it is, the more depressed I become.

I respect your thoughts, OP, but I don't think you're really thinking about the end of the universe; you're thinking about your own end. You're part of a greater whole.

Your cells are dying all the time. Should we be sad because they die and are replaced? They have value, but your totality has more, but THE Totality has even more, and All That Is is never lost.

>>1485852

I can hear the OP now;

"Your just a pussy vitalist who ignores reality!"

went to college, watched theamazingatheist, and thought he was smarter then his parents, but can't properly respond with anything other then 'your a pussy'

With logic like that, i'm a believer.

You think that's depressing?

Just remember, the last 2000 years have been defined not by logic and reason like the civilizations of antiquity, but by darkness and superstition brought on by the abrahamic cults that came to power

The language, the art, the architecture, all inspired by some fake stories. Its like we're living in our own little wacco texas. People still say "thank god" or "god bless you" like its no big deal, even though that really makes as much sense as saying "thank l ron hubbard" or "l ron hubbard bless you"

>>1485868
You are of course aware that in every society/civilization before the last 2000 years, religion in whatever form has always had a prevalent role in said society/civilization?

But if you meant that the previous society/civilization encouraged free thinking in a higher degree, I'll meet you half way.