/lit/ - Literature

>>14839443
Hope not, it's shitty pseudoscience.

>>14839444
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/jan/07/therapy-wars-revenge-of-freud-cognitive-behavioural-therapy

>>14839444
Well pills and cognitive therapy don't seem to be working much better

>>14839443
Don't call it a come back, I've been here for years

Definitely not. Woke behaviourism is more likely.

>>14839443
Zizek?

He gets cum on his back in the video I think

People with mental problems just need to man up

>>14839499
I dont know about other countries, but here in Norway psychoanalysis is more or less nonexistent and showed down by CBT. I am considering studying psychology to become a therapist, and checked the curriculum. Nothing on Freud or any of the psychoanalyists. Just straight into empirical psychology.

>>14839526
based
taking a shower is the final solution

>>14839526
Yeah man, FUCK suicide being the main killer of men between the ages of 25 and 40, what they really need to do is just CONTINUE to SUPPRESS their PROBLEMS and REFUSE to TALK like they've been DOING for GOD KNOWS HOW LONG because that's worked out SO well for them

>>14839443
>OUR JEWISH HOCUS POCUS KNOWN AS PSYCHOANALYSIS IS GOING TO MAKE A HUGE COMEBACK AND TAKE ACADEMIA BY STORM DESPITE BEING DISREGARDED AS PSEUDOSCIENTIFIC NONSENSE FOR DECADES

The only living Freudian I've read recently is Darian Leader.

Anyone rec other freud/lacan writers?

>>14839537
Im the old days those men would be sent off to war and they would come back as men

>>14839544
Not enough wars anymore for us to die with honour in battle, so you're gonna need to find something else to occupy your weekends or you'll end up as just another statistic.

>>14839539
>antisemite
opinion discarded

>>14839553

>>14839526
And clean their damn rooms

>>14839544
>war
only subhuman larpers who have been never on the frontlines glorify war.

>>14839518
What have you guys actually learned from Zizek? I can't think of anything.

>>14839443
What do you think marketing is?

>>14839575
That god is an aythayist

>>14839527
In America, CBT is also currently the standard. But my gf is a psychoanalyst and as a result I've gotten to see into that world a bit. Basically from the late 80s until 5-10 years ago psychoanalysis was disregarded as fringe bullshit, and I've heard stories about unscrupulous analysts keeping their patients around for years longer than necessary, basically milking them for cash. But recently, there has been renewed interest in it, and evidence that a properly conducted analysis is a very effective form of treatment.

>>14839575
Space is literally the stupidest thing there is

casual hookup culture is no different than using a dildo to fuck a fleshlight

Fisting is the erotic model of the 21st century par excellence

the testimony of a raped woman is more likely to be true if it suffers from factual inconsistencies

an authoritarian daddy who beats you is better than a progressive daddy who guilt trips you into doing stuff

No ethnic cleansing without poetry

>>14839544
Not sure that's true of the wars of today. Nam vets seem uniquely fucked in the head after their war.

>>14839676
They say that serial killers were just the Phoenix program coming home to roost.

It never left.
The last few decades have been one big cope to get away from Freunds Ödipus. It institutionalized, overcoded and imposed on pretty much everything.
Everytime some thot calls her lover daddy while he chokes her, Freuds looming shadow grows more powerful.

>>14839489
this. Literally all science past physical chemistry is "pseudo-science" - might as well let some chucklefucks in an arm chair try to work out these problems through dialogue

>>14839575
I learned what the fuck Lacan was on about. DESU he did a lot of spitballing but there's some really interesting stuff there. In particular as a tech worker, his idea of the self un-centered makes a lot of intuitive sense to me

>>14839539
>jewish hocus pocus
>point aligns with modern psychology's criticisms of psychoanlysis
>basedjack pic
checks out

>>14839562
based

>>14839443
I'd say yes and no. Freud and his progeny were psychological metaphysicians at best, but he was right on some stuff or at least it seems he was. There is already a lot of great neuroscience that does, believe it or not, seem to provide support for some of his claims. If you're interested check out the articles The Four Postulates of the Freudian Unconscious by Arminjon, and Computational Neuroscience and the Unconscious by Weinberger & Stoycheva. Short answer: maybe. There is also a new college opening which focuses on Neuroscience Psychoanalytic therapy opening soon. So I think that the branch could "come back" but only after a long period of weeding out pseudoscience from truth. What results will likely be hard to call "psychoanalysis" anymore

It already has come back and expanding for the past 10-20 years. In Latin America (Brazil, Argentina and Chile) and in China most of all, but in other parts of the globe too.

Jung doesn't enter much of that trend, he has his own theories and so on.

But Lacan most of all and Freud by his influence on Lacan. The reason for this is that psychoanalysis, unlike other areas, pays great attention to the circumstances and to the complex public-private relations, thus it's able to help political and social sciences understand how the current political climate affects people. Another reason is that the internet has changed too much how we deal with information and we are still overwhelmed by this. Psychoanalysis is developped, above all else, around languange, how it affects us, how we use it, how we define, compare and form our values because of it, making it a precious tool to understand our times. A third reason is that psychoanalysis is not alone anymore in its skepticism of other approaches and treatments, for instance, in the current abuse of pills or how questioning the school and work systems themselves are often left out of the equation.

Most people have no idea of what's about, it's incredible.

>>14839575
That sometimes empty gestures are not really empty (example: I step on your foot and say "sorry", you say "it's alright no need to apologize", and we are good. But only because I said sorry you could say I didn't have to say it)

We had a similar thread a while back and it was pretty interesting:
>>/lit/thread/S14569466

Hopefully, this thread will have as much discussion as that one had.

>>14840294
I'm going to assume that the Latin American expansion was probably greatly helped by Carl Rogers' workshops in the 70s.

>>14839637

Is it possible for the two work together for a single treaatment?

>>14839637
please link the evidence, I'm really interested in diving on the subject

Is there a psychoanalysis book chart?

>>14839553
Literally all of the original Vienna psychoanalysts were Jewish. It is very much a Jewish science.

>>14839810
the mind isn't material, so who you gonna call?

>as literary analysis

Yes, psychoanalytical literary theory is the best type.

>as a therapy

Nope

>>14839757
this is the correct answer

the alternative "correct answer" is that the absurdity of post-modernism is a natural defence-mechanism of society to prevent of from degeneration via psychoanalysis

>>14839526
try some lit on anti-psychiatry. you might have some different opinions

>>14839539
the whole id-ego-superego thing has roots in plato (allegedly), but yea the sexual stuff not so much. but per rumour i also hear that aristotle can get pretty frisky at times

>>14839540
my professor is a classically trained freudian. he gives off nice gentle-seriously-grounded vibes.

honestly psychotherapy has more to do with the client/analyst relation, than the specific theories he/she uses

>>14840776
>>14839539
this is factual, but please explain how this is relavant

>>14839575
Zizek is cool but he is literally psychoanalyst of the mass heard, its something he's quite aware of i believe. in any case he has some good ideas but they are presented in hogwash

>>14839637
in a sense having a bad analyst (or at least, analyst/client relationship) is like being in any other toxic relationship, only in this case, the analyst assumes superiority over you, and everything he/she says is right

>>14841505
s3mp4i they are more-or-less the same but i'll let you think about that

alternatively: you analyze the "phantasy" (with a ph-, why?)

>>14840732
i would avoid anything like that like the plague

>>14840693
CBT is basically post-analytic-breakthrough-self-realization without the analytic-breakthrough and arguably without the self-realization either. you are trained to sustain more positive thinking basically, which could be a good thing, but without the basis of analytic-insight, it doesn't seem to be so sustaining

>>14840315
the thing with claims like this is that they balloon beyond the infinite: you could arguably say "the reason why i say hi is s.t. you can say hi back to me" as well; which may or may not have its own validity

>>14840294
i assume its because they have been pretty shielded from its genesis

>>14839443
Freud was good in the sense of his historic place, however Jung is the only good one there. The other two are interesting but almost entirely miss-the-point.

>>14839489
excuse me what

>>14841786
>the whole id-ego-superego thing has roots in plato (allegedly),
I've read Plato and I don't remember this, pls sauce!

>>14841826
sry i can't sauce this because i was told this by a university prof i trust (RS top-20? ~wow~)

in any case, plato said that man was like a joint system of man holding onto a leashed lion, being that you had to tame the lion (also this explanation is circular lol)

or was this socrates? honestly speaking i've pretty much never read a primary source philosophy paper b4

We have entered a new age. The dawn of Petersonian biological psychoanalysis.

>>14841886
>>14841826
You stupid retards it's reason spirit appetite, superego ego id. That's hardly an integration.

>>14841930
i think ur rite, but watch your language f4m: this is 4chan after all, kids will be reading this!

>>14839443
it's still a major influence on psychiatric therapy. at least here in europe..

I value the tailor made approach based in clinical observations and dialogue with the patient, it's much more effective than the pharmaceutical solution imo

>>14841886
>>14842347
Okay I can see it, but it at best seems like a superficial origin in technical ordering, and the actual meat merely being common cultural idea.

>>14841886
>>14842347
>>14843685
>common cultural idea.
Which to be clear finds to a large extent -and equally as much in other present things(like the idea being preexisting already in common thought or practice)- in Plato, but in the same way that almost everything in our lives is formed by Plato, and obviously even the more so intellectual thought.

Why would people go for psychoanalysis when there's based existentialism, phenomenology and CBT?

It seems to me like psychoanalysis as a discourse has become a bit schizoid, through the distance that clinical practice now has from theory. The great psychoanalytic schools of the 20th century are gone, and all that remains are, on the one hand, private clinical practices, and on the other, the influence of Lacan in academia. These two threads seem to have little or no contact with each other. I studied English and Continental Philosophy, two fields where Lacan's influence is very visible today, and even the most intensely Lacanian professors I had would laugh if I asked them whether they were in analysis (this is in the States btw).

And friends of mine who are clinically involved with psychoanalysis talk about the kinds of reading groups that clinical psychoanalysts go to, and they're definitely not reading Lacan, they're reading about empathic approaches to transference, all these kinds of affective approaches that are the literal opposite of free association.

I'm obviously an outsider but my experiences with psychoanalysis have led me to believe that perhaps there will be another revolutionary transformation, like with what Lacan did to Freud, but in its current state, psychoanalysis is doomed to be a footnote. Brazilian friends tell me that I'm wrong though, and that everybody there is in analysis and reading Lacan all the time. So what do I know.

Also, just curious if any of the clinicians or students in this thread have come across a good argument against Adorno's claims that psychoanalysis is fundamentally reactionary?When psychoanalysis poses neurosis as an inability to process stressful situations, it focuses on the stress of the individual, and catharsis of such, rather than a change in material conditions. Is it possible to critically examine world processes, if the problem is always located within your psyche?

I've been going to a lacanian analyst for 10 years, and I'm really glad I've chosen to do it. It's not a meme, it's just really hard to explain, it's not a treatment in the ordinary sense we think of, it's something that gave me more of an emotional maturity or something of that sort. There I've confronted with my own stupidity, my biases, issues with my family, with religion, with relationships and sex, the way I've formed my own values, consciously or not, and even metaphysical questions I had, without being offered any easy answer. On top of that, it has helped with a million specific problems and difficult situations of practical life, it has accompanied me in bad times and good times. I think some issues I might have 50 years from now that I can't predict will be made easier for me for going there.

When I see people dismissing it, I really don't understand it, the only thing I can think of is that one doesn't know what's about. There is no substitute treatment, even if you might go to other therapies and specialists, what they are trying to accomplish is different and does not compare.

>>14843792
Most people dismiss it because of the lack of empirical evidence showing it does anything, or explaining how it works.

I don't say that to be a dick, for all I know(essentially nothing, I read On Metapsychology by Freud and that's it) it really works, but you can't be surprised that people view it that way.

>>14839544
You mean sent of to war and come back with even more mental health problems than they started with. Hell, half the time children were sent off to become mentally ill men.

No, the Zizek-Peterson debate was the last nail in it's coffin.

>>14843719
CBT is stupid bullshit where you do worksheets and are given advice that essentially amounts to "don't think bad thoughts." It helps in the short term but does nothing to address the real cause of someone's problems

>>14843860
Very often there isn't an underlying, unconscious cause to a person's psychic suffering and that's where CBT comes in. In the cases there is, existential and phenomenological psychology do a great job at investigating them without depending so much on the authoritarian assumptions and procedures of the therapist and without relying so much on symbolic interpretation of emotional phenomena instead of taking thing at face value. Psychoanalysis has its uses yes but it is too much of a slave to subjetivism and personal interpretations of both patient and therapist to be of use to many people.

>>14843905
gtfo. big words - small brain answer. Your whole line of reasoning is psychoanalytic at its core.

>>14844163
How.

>>14839514
I agree. What we know as the unconscious is an embarrassment to those who possess it in such small quantities. The prevalence of women and non-westerners in psychology today signifies a lack of interest in anything resembling depth. Therefore, all focus is directed on the external, the merely observable. The interest in the source for our behavior has been lost for quite some time now, due to, I believe, the impossibility of understanding it.

>>14839526
Unironically based

>>14843719
CBT has been shown through studies to be less effective in long term effect than psychoanalysis.
Existential therapy is a very specific form of therapy tbat deal with, well, existential issues. Psychoanalysis is more broad than that. You wouldn’t go to existential therapy if you’re dealing with hallucinations or obsessional-compulsive behavior.

>>14844422
That's pretty much what I said.

>>14841819
Yes goy, keep taking those pills and having the same talking points with your therapist. Just become dependent on this and never attempt to cure yourself

>>14844479
What?

>>14843905
Bullshit there often isn't an underlying cause to a person's mental pain

It never left. Freudian ideas about sexual repression are so thoroughly woven into the modern discourse that they have become a kind of folk wisdom. Freudian and Lacanian ideas about mass media and advertising have survived from the 70s just fine (ever read Laura Mulvey's original essay about the male gaze?). Psychoanalysis is still portrayed in pop culture as a proven and powerful tool and Freud, to the extent that he is mentioned, is always portrayed as a far-seeing visionary and not a coke-addled dumpster fire of a human being

"Comeback" implies that the shipwrecked academic reputation of psychoanalysis is common knowledge, it's not at all

>>14839537
>total loss of affect restraint seems therapeutic to women so maybe men need to do it more since there are no salient psychological differences between the sees

Yikes

>>14839757
They call their boyfriend "daddy" because they heard some girl say it in porn you fucking idiot. Porn directors figured out it was a kinky-sounding, easy two-syllable word they could make actresses say without having to pay them more

>>14843846
How? It wasn't even directly about psychoanalysis , despite each of them representing a branch of their own(Zizek being lacanian, and Peterson jungian).

>>14844753
>total loss of affect restraint seems therapeutic to women
Men and women. Even if you don't buy into psychoanalysis, any kind of 'talking cure' can help to ease the tension, regardless of gender. Best thing is you don't necessarily have to pay anyone to do it, a considerate friend or caring relative can often work fine. You're not Atlas, you don't have to carry all that baggage around just because you think that's what "a man" does. And real life is not fight club, you don't have to fulfil this absurd, inflated archetype of the braggadocios male who uses sweaty basement beatdowns to sublimate his anarchic spirit (or just fantasise about it), instead of just doing what everyone does in the end anyway, which is to sit down and talk.

>>14839575
If you make racist jokes to black guys they might let you call them nigga

>>14844753
>They call their boyfriend "daddy" because they heard some girl say it in porn you fucking idiot.

no its because the men likes to hear it, and the girls know it. in turn, there is some connectives in pleasing your bf and pleasing your "daddy"

>>14839452
Forewarning: This article was written by a subhuman dogman.

>>14839526
This actually, also, jews need to be exterminated so the minds of the youth are not polluted by sophistry and constant moral attacks against their existance

>>14839537
>Yeah man, FUCK suicide being the main killer of men between the ages of 25 and 40, what they really need to do is just CONTINUE to SUPPRESS their PROBLEMS and REFUSE to TALK like they've been DOING for GOD KNOWS HOW LONG because that's worked out SO well for them

>>14844917
It's interesting that Atlas is your archetypal picture of any modern man who has failed to produce this excogitated externalized version of his internal monologue and bounce it off someone else

Have you considered that maybe this board selects for men who feel that crushing existential "baggage" more than average, and that maybe that's not a normative state for most people or an inevitable outcome of modernity?

Of course there are times in life when nothing can substitute for a sympathetic friend or a caring arm around the shoulder. Growing up none of the male role models in my life ever told me I wasn't allowed to cry or feel things, and all of them did at one point or another when the rollercoaster of life overwhelmed them - the central question though is to what extent is masculine stoicism performative, conditioned behavior?

For me the only time I ever got a handle on my depression was when I took my feelings off their pedestal, stopped spending hours a day trying to figure out what was causing the feelings, stopped talking to therapists, stopped the solipsistic practice of journaling. Read about sex differences in psychology. Read about what happens to women when they're given male hormones (hint: less frequent crying and qualitative changes in crying ie less tear gland output, less body-wracking sobs etc are just the tip of the iceberg. If you're unacquainted with the literature it's going to upend everything you thought about male social conditioning.) The reason men do these things less is because they're not effective or therapeutic coping strategies - male unhappiness is far more likely than female to be a result of concrete, actionable circumstances and taking the necessary steps to change them will do far more than "talking through it".

In general this is a classic example of these borderline magickal / folk superstition understandings of affect control (men are stoic because they're "bottling feelings up", things that are bottled up - repressed - have to go somewhere or they manifest unpredictably etc) that are a holdover from bastardizations of Freud. It makes my point better than I ever could - he is everywhere, he's in the ether.

>>14839540
Stephen Grosz - The Examined Life
More Freudian

bump

>>14845345
Bitch.

>>14839526
what if they're women?

>>14839526
unironically this

>>14847523
then they need to woman up

>>14839444
Fpbp and stay dead

Jung is not a psychoanalyst

Current trends in therapy.
Clubhouse models
support networks, re:wolf pack
peer support models

Also note that many people in professional therapy have something fucked up about them.
Actually before you can get a degree and certification you pretty much have to develop one.
Also many different treatments
mainly delineated between black therapy, latinx therapy, trans therwpy, womens therapy.

Also note the fracturing of many religious, as well as political ideologies,
re:buddism, hinduism communism etc...

Biggest trend is now is
mindfullness. dbt
Which is cbt, but instead of recognizing emotion it seeks to squelch it, and diffuse it. Good for extree emotions, but everyday use will have everyone walking around like hynotized monks.

We have a breadth of theroies as to why,
we need to wait for neuroscience to catch up with imaging and this connectome hubub.
We also have a depth of techniques to use.
also note that cultural comeptency/sensitivity is very important so much that i hears its pretty much all what into to psych is now.

the trends now will bemore personally tailored

Like it wont be psychoanalysis
or even lacanian, jungian, or reichian.
It will be afrocentric depression therapy, trans schizophrenia group, mexican autism group, bipolar scandanavian unwed teenage mothers with post partum depression and COPD therapy.

>>14847784
Pretty much this. "Mindfulness" as an antidote to the ennui residing in the souls of the masses. What was originally one, universal mind is now being compartmentalized into a separate mind for each identity group, meaning there is now a greater need of therapists to cater to each specific identities' "social and interpersonal needs." The idea of an underlying unconscious has been abandoned in favor of the radical segmentation of surface consciousness

>>14845189
What’s a dogman?

>>14839443
Already underway, picrel

>>14841812
Based

>>14839575
that every true revolutionary is a pessimist

>>14845345
>the only way you can get a handle on your depression is by reading up on sex differences and the effects of hormone therapy
lmao jesus christ, THAT'S what gets you out of bed?

>male unhappiness is far more likely than female to be a result of concrete, actionable circumstances
what are the concrete, actionable circumstances that lead to your depression?

>>14841812
My man

>>14840394
>>>/lit/thread/S14569466
Based tarkovsky and history poster

>>14839537
Divorce-raped boomer detected

No.

bump

>>14848989
Thanks, I guess?