/lit/ - Literature

>>14803357
The problem with this is that you can just leave.

>>14803357
feudalism is based doe

>>14803362
illusion of choice. just like everything else in a capitalist system

>>14803375
How is it an illusion though?
You can, actually, just leave.

>>14803357
Presumes capitalism can be changed, it is inevitable and anarchism is the gayest shit ever.

>>14803357
The living conditions of the third guy are nowhere near as bad as the previous two. Thinking this is a fair comparison at all is fucking retarded

>>14803392
but in many ways the oppression is invicible making it much more sinister

>>14803357
>presumes capitalism is emergent from worldly human affairs and not the finger of yaldabaoth inside your mind

>>14803385
How do I leave?

>>14803452
https://www.internations.org/go/moving-to-cuba

>>14803392
The living conditions are worse in 3rd world countries producing for the first world.
It doesnt matter though, out of sight is out of mind to most reactionaries.

>>14803452
Pack your bags and gtfo?
Identity fraud?
Kill yourself?
Stop complaining about a 'system' while not either changing or improving it.
It makes you look incredibly stupid, and in real life you would get laughed at by any respectable individual.

>>14803452
Go into a wood. Join a commune, move contries.

>>14803458
Cuba is capitalist

>>14803357
I don't think I like living under socialism very much.

>>14803357
Masters were not responsible for the creation of food, and feudalism was not responsible for the creation of tools. Capitalism is directly responsible for our degree of technological advancement.

>>14803553
>everything I don't like is gabidull!!!
How about you realize that you're just an incel and would be miserable under any system.

>>14803574
Why you fight so hard to be a wagecuck?

>>14803568
And that's a bad thing.

>>14803589
>he thinks gobbusism wont have its own form of wagecuckeey

>>14803590
Back to your cell, Ted

>>14803609
It doesn't by definition wagecuck

>>14803589
>implying I don't hate everything
Shut the fuck up, incel.

>>14803487
You make it sound so easy for an individual to have a palpable impact on the global hegemony of capital, when its easier to imagine the world than to imagine the end of capitalism. And besides, no economic system is above critique, no matter how engrained it is in our collective experience. The difficulty in positing an alternative just shows how much more work there is to be done, and you won't get very far without first identifying the specific issues that need rectifying in the current system.

>in real life you would get laughed at by any respectable individual
what an incredibly petty thing to say.

>>14803392
slavery is not necessarily some bdsm fantasy. a lot of ancient slaves lived very nice lives, people would even sell themselves into slavery of their own volition. you had value to your master, so he made sure you were doing okay, just like your boss today wants you to go to the gym and watch your netflix garbage so you're healthy and happy and productive. like most people, you're not actually opposed to the idea of being a slave: what you don't want is discomfort, you just don't want to be whipped. comfortable slavery is fine.

it is however possible to object fundamentally to the condition of unfreedom even if your master treats you well, and it is possible to object to the way capitalism subverts and obliterates every worthwhile human value even when the fast food is so tasty and the porn on your phone so tantalizing. there exist values beyond comfort.

>>14803623
Maybe no wages but you will still be a cuck to societies will

>>14803385
sure, you can just leave and go live in a government owned piece of polluted land with no wildlife, yeah lol i feel so free

>I don't think I like living under communism
>But your communal apartment and daily ration of bread is provided by communism!
Capitalists BTFO

>>14803385
leave where?

>>14803689
Vermont

we live in the second worst times in history (the 20th century was pretty terrible)

>>14803628
>You make it sound so easy for an individual to have a palpable impact on the global hegemony of capital, when its easier to imagine the world than to imagine the end of capitalism.
My point was obviously that instead of complaining about capitalism, you should try doing things to improve or change the system.
Or better yet, just stick to your own shitty life.
>And besides, no economic system is above critique, no matter how engrained it is in our collective experience.
Noone is stopping you from complaining like a bitch.
I'm just telling you people dont like people who complain like a bitch and consequently do fuckall to fix their preceived opression / whatever issues.
>The difficulty in positing an alternative just shows how much more work there is to be done, and you won't get very far without first identifying the specific issues that need rectifying in the current system.
It's not hard to pose alternatives to capitalism, it's one of the easiest things you can do.
I'll admit it's futile though, because people don't like it when you steal from them.
So you go ahead and start with that.
Meanwhile, the rest of the planet will go on with their lives.
>>in real life you would get laughed at by any respectable individual
>what an incredibly petty thing to say.
You started by posting petty brainlet memes, so you get paid in full, because we live in a FAIR capitalist society.

>>14803643
>sure, you can just leave and go live in a government owned piece of polluted land with no wildlife, yeah lol i feel so free
I was hinting at you leaving a capitalist society and joining another society that is not capitalist.
But you probably wont do that.
Now will you go ahead and explain to me why you wont?

>>14803727
Another society that is not capitalist ? Which one ? The only ones that remain are decaying and not sustainable

>>14803721
For one thing, I'm not that poster. and secondly, if its so easy to pose alternatives, then why are we still hung up on the big three (Capitalism, socialism and communism)? When I say alternatives I don't mean "reattempting failed economic systems of the past", like you're implying.

>and consequently do fuckall to fix their preceived opression
And I ask again, what is there to be done to fix it? You keep saying this like its achievable, when it simply isn't. capitalism is an entrenched global force, and it needs to be undermined at a conceptual level before we can attempt to implement something different. Any new societal arrangement needs a shitload of theoretical grounding before it can be realised, and that's what critique is, finding the holes in the present system so we know what needs to be patched in the new one. But all I'm hearing from you is the sound of a bootlicker who's learned to love the taste of his superior's soles.

>d-don't critique my master's system or I'll laugh at you!
Scratch that, its not petty, its pathetic.

>>14803785
Capitalism performs its own critique in the process of its reproduction. This is fundamentally different from previous systems like feudalism.

>>14803362
There are better defenses of capitalism. Saying "you can just leave" is like telling me that if I don't like the government I can just move to somewhere without it.
That entails saving up money for departure and a new home. Leaving friends and family behind. Possibly learning a new language. Being surrounded by people with a different culture and values. Adapting to a different climate. I can leave, but I can't "just" leave. I'm paying an arm and a leg for it.

The best defense is to ask the commie "why?" first.

>>14803816
Yes, capitalism is self-optimising, which is precisely what makes it so challenging to change anything. But I still don't think that makes critique pointless, it just means it has to be weaponised from a position of exteriority that is able to punch through a weak spot in its surface. Where that weak spot is, I couldn't tell you, but one day...

>>14803727
>I was hinting at you leaving a capitalist society and joining another society that is not capitalist.
will do, can i borrow your time machine?

>>14803568
No its not. We cannot say to what degree capitalism is responsible for tech advancements because we have no alternative to compare it to. We had been making rapidly accelerating improvements in tech for centuries prior to the advent of capitalism, so the concept of innovation is not exclusive to it. Tech builds on itself and capitalism exists during a historical moment when it can take advantage of all prior tech, when information is abundant, when communication is incredibly fast/easy, etc. etc. we cannot say what kind of tech advancements would have occurred if another system existed under such conditions

>>14803568
Not only is it false, but were it true, it still wouldn't be an argument in favor of capitalism, because technology fucking sucks ass

Left guy in this comic is Icarus. Keep pushing it and where do you think it leads? How much more shit could you possibly want? Or will you not be happy until you're the slave driver in control of the guy on the right? Then you become that which you hated in the first place.

Checkmate.

>just leave dude lmao

>>14803877
>Then you become that which you hated in the first place
Did you seriously just jump from the myth of Icarus to Harvey Dent's arc in The Dark Knight and didn't think anyone would notice? the absolute state of this board

>>14803889
T. lazy

>>14803905
bureaucratic simulation of productivity is the bread and butter of the middle-classes. Doesn't get much lazier than them, a huge percentage of their jobs are entirely worthless.

>>14803912
Fair but nothing suggests communism supplemants these with "worthwhile" jobs either. Basically just conjecture

>>14803860
Capitalism provides incentive for technical advancements. That's not in dispute at all. Specifically, capitalism incentivizes optimizing efficiency and productivity as well as developing new consumer goods (the technology in the iPhone comes from technologies that were first developed for military use, but without capitalism you wouldn't have the iPhone as a consumer product and it wouldn't have influenced other similar products known as smartphones). People who talk about technological innovation being funded by the military miss this crucial factor that incentivizes products which are useful in civilian life.

>>14803916
who's talking about communism ?

>>14803916
Impossible to say what communism would be like in general without evoking "end of history" utopias or fully automated luxury space communism. But presumably the goal is for people to pursue whatever career they want, without the financial insecurity of being in-between jobs. I think employment should still be based on merit and skill level however, if you can't get good enough to get the job, tough shit, but at least you won't starve.

>>14803930
>Capitalism provides incentive for technical advancements
As do lots of other things. Huge technical advancements have been made in non capitalist regimes.
What's more, capitalism mostly provides incentive for making profit, and as such capitalism is primarily driven by greed. You can make a profit by inventing new stuff but it's far easier to make a profit by using shady business practices, by manipulating masses with media and advertisement, by lobbying, manipulating political powers, by evading taxes or by making secret agreements with the competition to drive the costs up, etc... You're talking about iPhones, what about planned obsolescence, Apple is purposefully designing shitty products to sell more instead of trying to make meaningful innovations.

>>14804002
>Apple is purposefully designing shitty products to sell more instead of trying to make meaningful innovations.
adding to this, the fact that all of their products are subject to planned obsolescence is a clear indication that their form of "technological innovation" intentionally moves at a snail's pace. We get drip-fed the advancements so that we keep paying a grand for the latest model that is only slightly better than the previous one, in that it doesn't self-destruct after 4 years of use. I'm of the opinion that innovation in commercial industry will massively decelerate as companies try to keep customers on the hook for as long as possible.

>>14803392
Wrong. Its worse.
Slave owners and feudal lords had an incentive to see their people fed and clothed and sheltered. Capitalism affords no such protections. It's worse and more psychologically damaging as instead of accepting their lot in life, they fret incessantly about finances and just making it another day. The slave had no such worries and the serf likewise led a calmer, lower pressure existence.

>>14803392
You're retarded for getting it completely backwards.

>>14803957
Possibly but certain careers will still be unquestionably more important than others and why would they not realize their leverage over lesser career paths

>>14803930
>every technology that makes the iphone possible was developed by state-funded military r&d projects
>but apple figured out how to put it all in a box and sell it!

in your own example the only form of innovation that is driven by corporations is in the realm of convincing people that they need something they didn't need before. "developing new consumer products" is simply the manufacturing of desire and is not a positive development at all; capitalist "innovation" has to create more problems than it solves as a matter of principle, otherwise where is the room for growth?

in the end, the impact of the smartphone on human life is mostly negative. it's not even hard to imagine an alternative use of the same tech that keeps the positives while not turning your brain to mush, but that hypothetical device would not work as a "consumer product".

>>14804030
And you can see the same thing with pharmaceutical companies too. Curing people isn't as profitable as treating symtoms, so that's where research fundings are going to go, and palliative drugs or treatments is what's going to be developed. Well it's the whole idea behind capitalism really, keeping people mildly sick and frustrated and on the edge so that they have to seek relief in consumption. It may not be such a stretch to say that if anything, capitalism deters from true innovation and creativity.

>>14804066
This. All great advancement was state funded and the only possible way technology could be eugenic rather than harmful is if a command economy is inacted and cosoommashit is again gone. If it wasn't for wars, state programs, the Soviets and the Nazis, we'd still be back in the 1910s.

>>14804096
This isn't a defense of any of those ideologies either. We need a hierarchical command economy that is not ideologically limited.

>>14804101
Even the natural tendency of capitalism is total monopoly thus ensuring this outcome. Instead midwits decide to leave things at it's worse possible stage so they can fuel their decadent cooosnomerism.

>>14804112
> Even the natural tendency of capitalism is total monopoly thus ensuring this outcome
Are you including state intervention in this hypothetical situation?

>>14803366
This unironically

>>14804083
People are most profitable if they are alive so they have an incentive to keep people alive

Communist countries don't

There's only two option here, do something ahout or just leave
Go to the woods and go full thoreau, join political activist groups and put pressure on gobberment, start your own company and aim to change industry standards, do literally anything but sitting at your desk crying about it and continuing to perpetuate the thing you hate

>>14803487
>Either cooperate with the capitalist system or kill yourself
LMFAO THE STATE OF CAPITALKEKS

>>14803632
based

>>14803357
I dont think either of the first two ever overthrew their masters though. The first died kaput from barbarians, and the second from rich merchants that were basically nobility in all but title.

>>14804499
Well yeah
The options are
A. Overthrow the government
B. Work within the system to change thing
Or
C. GTFO
This is how all political change is brought about

>>14804454
>>14803932

>>14803357
Name one way living in a communist country would improve my life

>>14804347
-tips fedora-

>>14804586
no hollywood

>>14803357
so you're saying the suffering will never end no matter how much we improve

>>14804818
Who cares if suffering never ends, as long as its aesthetic.

>>14803689
To a commie country like Cuba or China

>>14803357
"Living under capitalism" is a great indicator of how much you're buying into the propaganda.
Capitalism isn't like some political system which you toil under, it's not a culture or a country or a secret ruling cabal. Communism, feudalism, roman slavery, democracy, and every other system of sociopolitical organization you have ever heard of, relies on capitalism. Value and trade have existed since prehistory, and without it, we wouldn't have society, writing, buildings, cities, or anything.

>>14804818
The tower of Babel will never be finished.

>>14804954
Capitalism is the development of open markets, basically unregulated by guilds and such, as well as numerous other developments like joint stock companies. These are by no means the default state of economics.

>>14803574
if he's an incel, he'd be happier under feudalism

>>14803366
Dangerously redpilled post

>>14805025
then why did the Commies have to liquidate all the kulaks who just owned farms

>>14804954
>pfft you're all buying into propaganda
>hey btw let's redefine this political term so that it appears to be an immutable law of human society and not a particular socioeconomic system beneficial to a small caste of fat parasites! just for fun haha

>>14804845
>if you don't like capitalism you must be a communist
Cringe and Jewpilled

>>14805055
Well what else is there. Fascism is just pseudo-communism. Slavery is pretty based but it's just not as efficient as capitalism so any slave country will lose out in the end.

>>14803357
Communism can't succeed without also being a patriarchy. Feminism is inherently capitalistic, for it is the woman's desire to freely set the price for sex and reproduction, unhindered by any sense of equity or restraint. Moreover, it's the elite's desire to freely use their wealth and status to access more sex and reproductive access than would be possible under a more restricted society. Sadly, Communism has be infected by feminism, and any attempt to institute communism will be tainted by that capitalism without any productive advantages, which is called female equality.

>>14803357
Is that a Strasserite shirt?

>>14804845
so you can work servicing american tourists in cuba or building american phones in china? those places are not "outside" capitalism, they're vassals of the global capitalist hegemony. you can't "leave", there's nowhere to go.

>>14805072
why do they have to serve capitalism they have their own countries. Why doesnt America have to serve China

>>14805078
are you asking me why economy operates across national borders instead of each state floating in a separate self-contained dimension?

>>14805064
>pseudo-communism
Depends on the form of fascism desu. But there's other options. Playing to that false dichotomy just irks me something fierce.

>>14804454
>People are most profitable if they are alive so they have an incentive to keep people alive
nonsense, the drug trade one of the most potent capitalist enterprises on earth, so profitable that it continues to operate despite being outlawed and facing severe repression, and they don't care that they kill their clients

>>14803357
(((Capitalism)))

>>14805042
Because they wanted the state to own everything. You do realize there are different economic models than capitalism and communism, and communism still operates under much of the same conditions right?

>>14803610

>>14803628
No, you don't need to change the world. Go join a commune faggot.

>>14803889
"Work or starve" is a function of nature, not capitalism. You're not being coerced because you're too fucking incompetent to take care of yourself.

>>14803392
just world hypothesis midwits should be castrated and sent to gulags for their remaining lives.

lots of bootlickers itt. newsflash: capitalism only benefits the 1%. you are not, and will never be, included in the 1%. you will never even crack the top 10% in this country. you are literally defending an economic system that is actively oppressing and exploiting you. that's the biggest cuck move of all

>>14803632
>>14804048
>>14804059
based posters

>>14806426
You are either cucker or cuckee, there is no other way for things to be. also you guys who say 'bootlicker' always bootlick the fuck out of the Prog sacred cows

>>14806426
Wrong. It benefits the top 20%. The top 20% are all enemies of the working class.

>>14806445
dare i say

>>14803357
Why would you post your retarded fucking thread on /lit/? You completely uncultured ignorant swine; waste of goodly breast milk from a mother whom was better off a childless whore, so as to spare this board and the world renowned your willful ignorance.
Know that under no moon in this dystopian hellscape of an original-post did you make any coherent points, nor provide insight as to a debate. You have not engaged your audience, written a meaningful post, expressed your views or managed to even appear intelligent.
The only thing more jarring that shitshow that must be your existence on this earth; is the fact that you garnished for yourself a plethora of reddit-tier responses from individuals who consider themselves based and red-pilled because they made a sock account on Twitter, and harassed a B-list celebrity over their conformity to a liberal status quo to maintaining their career.
The displeasure you feel will only ever be satiated once in your life, for only once can you fade, wane, and perish from this earth; you absolute cock wagon of a human being. Fortunately you can usher this along faster in many ways, and I distinctly encourage you to do so.