/lit/ - Literature

With loss of language comes loss of culture, which is considered a tragedy by humanists.

Esperanto never caught on.

Which language would we pick? English is strong... for now.

BU JI DAO

>>1477345
OK W3LL FOR ST4RT3RS 4 LOT OF P3OPL3 1ND3NT1FY W1TH TH31R L4NGU4G3 ON 4 CULTUR4L L3V3L

1TS 4 P4RT OF WHO TH3Y 4R3 4ND TH31R CUTUR3S H1STORY 4ND WHO4 HOLY SH1T TH3Y 4R3NT 34G3R TO JUST G1V3 1T UP L1K3 4 DRUNK G1RL 4T 4 D1V3 B4R

MOST P3OPL3 1F 4SK3D WH1CH L4NGU4G3 3V3RYON3 SHOULD US3 WOULD PROB4BLY S4Y TH31R N4T1V3 L4NGU4G3 SHOULD B3 TH3 ON3 B3C4US3 TH3Y H4V3 STRONG P3RSON4L T13S TO 1T 4ND W1LL B3 MOR3 CR1T1C4L OF OTH3R CHO1C3S

SO COM1NG TO 4 CONC3NSUS WOULD B3 D1FF1CULT 1F NOT 1MPOSS1BL3

Eu nao sei, mas eu gosto de otras linguas. To aprendendo Portuguese agora. E bem interesante.

Preserving language is useful for the study of linguistics, to determine the ancestry of existing languages and through that to some extent the relationships between ancient cultures. We can determine things about the spread of cultures and populations based on linguistic evidence.

As for day to day usage, I agree that only one language is necessary. Preferably English, for its diversity of expression (and because I already speak it), but any language with an alphabetic writing system is fine by me.

i propose a meshing of languages to be the final outcome. english and spanish are being incorporated currently in america; the internet will make it simple for various cultures to speak with one another. perhaps not in our lifetime but eventually, if we don't blow ourselves up first.

Hey, /sci/. How's it been hanging?

Even if we were to create a global language, and everyone spoke it all starting from the same position, dialects would spring up almost instantly, and within a couple hundred years ago or so we'd have different languages. You just can't force changes in languages and expect positive results to show up. Even Esperanto, which someone mentioned - most people just reject it as a replacement. Kvankam mi amas ŝajniganti mi scii la lingvo.

여보세요

>>1477425
How do these people not even know what boards they're on? What the fuck?

Latin. No one knows how the fuck do you pronounce the words, but it is the core language for almost all of the main spoken languages in the world. Wouldn't it be interesting if we could actually know how to properly have a conversation in such an ancient language?

>>1477395

Botaste no Google Tradutor, não? Ou não é americano. Norte-americanos não costumam gostar de português. De onde és?

Shortly after the fall of the Roman empire the majority of Europe's population spoke one of two languages: Vulger Latin and Proto German. During the dark ages, lacking a unifying empire, these languages divided.

The British Empire and U.S. super power have a similar effect on unifying language, however, when the current world order collapses again (peak oils just around the bend folks) divisions within current languages may form again, creating new ones. (Tower of Babel, anyone?)

It must also be said that the invention of the printing press was a large factor in slowing the diversion of Romance languages (descendents of Vulger Latin). That being said, languages will probably diverge much slower when English looses its current status.

"Preserving" languages, except in the sense of preserving records of said languages, doesn't make sense from a linguistic point of view. Languages aren't static, they are constantly changing and adapting.

>>1477395

Por curiosidade, qual é sua língua nativa?

>>1477431
It was a joke, son. A joke! I- I say the anon's a good kid, but he's about as bright as a sack of potatuhs.

>>1477446
English is my first language too, if you'd prefer we can talk in that. The google translation is really hard to understand.

>>1477457
Ingles, mas eu morei para 6 meses no Brasil. Voce fala Portugues? De onde voce e?

>>1477478

Haha! Eu sei que foi para o outro a resposta, mas...

Eu sou brasileiro e morei 6 meses na Inglaterra. Trocamos :)

(If you're struggling with the portuguese man, let me know, np)

>>1477492
Eu tenho problemas com pasado as vezes. Eu nao posso escrever muinto bem mas eu posso conversar. Porque voce foi na Inglaterra? Foi no intercambio?

>>1477506

Went to stay for a couple years, but got into college so came back. I was supposed to work and study english, but since I wasn't to stay, stopped working and just started visiting places in the fine British Islands.

I love your country, mate. It's simply the best country I've ever been to. I've known France (je parle français aussi), Germany, Portugal, Spain, besides all of South America, but I haven't found a place as beautiful as England.

I'm a die-hard Bernard Cornwell fan also, so visiting the places that he talks about in the books, was simply... perfect. Best. Year. Ever.

And you? How come you came to Brazil?

>>1477451

Only if you mean it may divide and vary between Anglophone countries, since English, despite being the current lingua franca, is not spoken as a first language outside of said countries.

>>1477514
Eu nunca Falei que eu so de Inglaterra, eu so dos E.U.A. Mas to com acordo que Inglaterra e um pais bonito, eu ja fui. Eu esto no Brasil para fazer intercambio pelo Rotary. Eu tenho cinco meses mais aqui. Eu Moro na Parana. Vc esta no Brasil agora?

Yeah, sure OP, I suppose that's the smart thing to do. You'd better start practising your Mandarin because that's by far the most spoken language on the planet.

>>1477528

Sorry, thought "English" was your nationality. Deeply sorry.

Yes, I'm in Brazil finishing college now. Live in Rio Grande do Sul.

OP better be a fucking troll.

>>1477345

Yeah gentrification's pretty great amirite.

>>1477345
OP, your whole premise is inaccurate. You think that the information age should bring about a unification of language, while it is actually quite the opposite.
The information age makes it more and more unnecessary to have a lingua franca, because it provides more and more tools to translate and communicate. English is the last lingua franca and will be spoken only by scholars around the world in a few decades, like Latin used to.

>>1477565
In a few decades? Are you high?

Seriously all the people who speak English now are going to stop or die in the next few decades?

Hey op?

How do you feel about the people that are having a conversation in Spanish in your thread?

I don't really give a shit about cultural identity. But there are some words in other languages English does not have a word for.

(So we should probably not switch over to English, if we do decide to just choose one language universally to stick to.)

>>1477589
Saudade

I have no funny retort, but I'm sure I'll have d'spirit d'escalier eventually.

>>1477593
>>1477589

I was going to say that one word.

Saudade.

>>1477580
Well, 8 is "a few" in my mind, so yeah most people who speak english now will be dead.

>>1477620
thats still laughable, 80 years. People spoke vulgar latin for 300-500 years after the fall of the Roman Empire.

Whats with all the fucking Lusophones in this thread?
>>1477585
Its Portuguese, dumbass

>>1477593
>>1477612
Its just a noun form of "to miss" quite similar to "homesickness" or "nostalgia".

Its the feeling you feel when you miss something.

>English
>spoken by Chavs in England and Rednecks in the United states of America

Fuck you op

>>1477645

Maybe it's more. There's more emotion to it, but, yeah, it's about the same idea.

>>1477629
Yeah, bad "globish" might linger for a while, but it is by now way rich enough to serve as a primary language anywhere.
The situation is very different from the fall of the Roman empire. Latin was the primary language then and that's why it stayed and evolved into regionalisms.

English will not stay long in countries where it is only a second language.

>>1477661
There's an emotion to "homesickness".
Saudade is homesickness applied to anything. Familysickness or Girlfriendsickness or Grandma'sBisciutsandGravysickness.

>>1477661
Of course not, but more people speak English as a first language than say German or French or Italian. I don't think the U.S. or Britain will stop speaking English for a good 500 years

>>1477681
Oh sorry, by "around the world", I assumed "in non-english countries".
Of course English has no reason to disappear in the UK.

>>1477695
UK and Emirica not on world?

>>1477695
What will be the language used for buissness in Europe?

>>1477708
I didn't care to precise because it seemed obvious enough.
Problem ?

Anyone who can't understand why people would want to preserve knowledge probably shouldn't be posting on /lit/.

>>1477446
>Latin. No one knows how the fuck do you pronounce the words,

Guys, y u no mention David Crystal?

While there may evolve a common language, you will always have regional variations. I doubt any of the larger languages will be killed off by English

>>1477714

That of whichever country becomes richest/most culturally influent, methinks.

Because English is a soulless, dead language that should not be.

IMO everyone should speak two languages, or more if they prefer. One universal language, like English, and one regional/cultural language.

Diversity in language creates diversity in thought.

It's because the government controls language, OP, haven't you heard???

>>1478910
The ultimate self defeating assertion.

So what language should the world be speaking, OP? ESPERANTO?

Because that would be horrible

>>1478948
Well, if I remeber right, the top three spoken languages are Mandarin, English, and Hindu.

So, Manglidu.

>>1478972
Nope. Mandarin, English, and Spanish. So Spangdrin. Or Manglish.

ᓄᓇᕐᔪᐊᑉ ᐃᓄᐃᑦ ᑕᒪᕐᒥᒃ ᐊᔾᔨᒌᖕᓂᒃ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᖅᐳᖅ.

We should all speak the language of love

>>1478998
mua

>>1478910
Change
>government
to dominant class

and add the proviso of "tries to" to
>controls
and you are on to something

>>1479021

Stick to your lit crit, D&E. Sociolinguistics evidently involves too much actual science for you.

>>1479046
I have been staying largely in the discourse of lit crit. I'm talking about the centrifugal and ceptripetal in language and how dominant ideology in a society tries to suppress the other or supressed ideologies in order to claim that there is only one unified language at work

>>1479050
*centripetal

dey misspelling evereybady out heyuh

>>1479050
it's not happening in my neighborhood

>>1479053
so fucking what

>>1479050
That's sociolinguistics...

>>1479058
It's also strongly interwoven with critical theory and literary criticism

>>1479057
so i obviously don't respect you enough to share anything better than anecdotal evidence. maybe someone else will inspire me to improve myself. btw u iz buttpained lol.

>>1479060
No it's not.

>>1479066
>>1479070

whatever tards, I am the best

>>1479050
dominant ideology doesn't TRY to do anything, it does what it dies by nature of being dominant. Stop trying to peddle this petty little persecution complex.

>>1479074
Uh, I'd give you a logical argument, but you cannot into logic.

>>1479078
*does what it does

>>1479078
>being dominant
what does it mean to be dominant

>Stop trying to peddle this petty little persecution complex
that is a lot to take from the fact I have just used the word 'dominant' wow

>>1479078
It's also equating ideologies with language.

>>1479086
what else can an ideology be

>>1479080
>I'd give you a logical argument
that would be misguided consider how much of a crock of shit logic turns out to be

>>1479091
An unkown known. Ideology cannot be communicated in language.

>>1479083
I'm not defining words for you that you chose in the first place. If you want to play grade school games of trying to abstract the issue further and further back, do it somewhere else.

And no its not just from the use of the word dominant, its from the fact that you claim "dominant ideology" has some sort of agency that it can actively act to "suppress the other".

Its the same old retarded shit for the last hundred and fifty years at least.

>>1479091

Erm, ideas?

>>1479094
I love how he just goes ahead and proves on his own how much he cannot into logic.

>>1479095
Then you have nothing to talk about. GG

>>1479096
whatever dude, here is what you said
>it does what it does by nature of being dominant
which is besides the point hilariously circular, and more importantly posits a self-containing center for itself where there can be none. A thing cannot be dominant without something to dominate and thus it relies wholly on the thing which it dominates.

>>1479109
*"dominates"

emphasis on quotation marks

>>1479103
cry more

>>1479097
that would be more language

>>1479109
>Then you have nothing to talk about.
Why do you think that?

>>1479109
Its supposed to be circular its asserting a tautology.
"dominant ideology" dominates. Not because it TRIES to do anything, but because simply in being dominant it IS dominant. You asserted that "dominant ideology" actively tries to suppress, but that's just retarded. Its an ideology it has no agency of its own.

>>1479126
>You asserted that "dominant ideology" actively tries to suppress
I didn't say that anywhere

>>1479122
brain activity

>>1479129
Just to point out as well:
>A thing cannot be dominant without something to dominate and thus it relies wholly on the thing which it dominates.
Is pretty circular.

>>1479129
>...how dominant ideology in a society tries to suppress the other...
wow, no you definitely said nothing of the sort.

>>1479135
>"dominant ideology" actively tries to suppress
>dominant ideology in a society tries to suppress the other

put more words in my mouth you shit-eating nitwit

For you to kill language, you need to kill the culture it is surrounded and has created. And same applies for culture and you know how hard this is.

>>1479136
Subject = "dominant ideology"
verb, active voice = "tries"
second verb = "to suppress"
I don't see what you're bitching about, unless you can "try" to do something passively, which is contrary to the meaning of try in any sense I've ever heard. what are you saying I somehow changed your meaning by omitting a pointless prepositional phrase and not specifying what was being suppressed, when the issue I raised was regarding what was doing the suppressing and thus it wasn't relevant either.

>>1479139
>I don't see what you're bitching about, unless you can "try" to do something passively, which is contrary to the meaning of try in any sense I've ever heard.
Your problem, not mine. I love how this is so not a big deal that you actually felt the overwhelming need to put in 'actively' when there's no big difference right haha

>are you saying I somehow changed your meaning
Yeah, you completely changed the meaning

>>1479132
>Can't answer the question seriously
Cool. Guess I win.

>>1479155
I'm not answering the question seriously because I don't take you seriously. Sorry.

What you need is a lingua franca, used by everyone to communicate with foreigners.
Me:french + english.
Brazbro: portuguese + english

That would seem to ba a good idea. HOWEVER, many people have difficulties learning another language.
In france, many kids even have problems in... french.

Ok, so you want to have one language worldwide. How would you do that? How long would it take?
You don't come and say "hey, fags, tomorrow everyone stop speaking their old language".

No, it takes time and shit. The change will come if needed. You won't change the world as you wish.

Deal with it.

>this whole thread

>>1479159
You can't answer the question. I have proven you wrong.

>>1479179
>>1479159

>>1479183
>>1479179

>>1479189
>>1479183

>>1479193
>>1479179 times infinity
I win again.

>>1479196
>>1479193

Don't bother being smart buddy. You and I, we are in this for the long run.

>>1479198
Too bad, you've already lost.

You come into the playground, you play by playground rules. Pic related.

D&E - Are you saying that the dominant ideology (dominant language) in a sense is established as a paragon of what should be, attempting to eliminate all other languages as "invalid"? This is what I infer. But do elaborate?

It seems to me, however, that all (I obviously cannot attest to this) surviving languages claim, within themselves, to be better, or the best in comparison to others. I use the word "language" in broad terms here (as you do - i.e. ideology). I mean there is inevitably a certain elitism that accompanies any "purist" cultural environment - whether it be the dominating one or not. So if one language is attempting to dominate (suppress?) others, would it not be any different if a different language was dominating? Suppression would still exist, but in a different form.

Lastly, what exactly do you mean by "dominant class"? Are you referring specifically to the ones with the best financial status? How is their language distinct, exclusive, then? I mean, even within the dominant class itself there exist ideological differences.

(This reply is probably really fucking circular, sorry about that).

>>1479204
>>1479159

>>1479208
Lalalalalala

>>1479207
I'm genuinely interested in what you have to say, D&E.
(I'm not any of the above anons either)

>>1479207
>Are you saying that the dominant ideology (dominant language) in a sense is established as a paragon of what should be, attempting to eliminate all other languages as "invalid"?
Honestly I think a few of these terms, such as "paragon of what should be" and "invalid" are a bit needlessly removed, but I guess you could think of it like that. I prefer to think of it purely in terms of power relations.

>all (I obviously cannot attest to this) surviving languages claim, within themselves, to be better, or the best in comparison to others
There is probably something to this somewhere along the lines, you could probably slot in a '-centrism' to support that claim somewhere if you know what I mean

>I mean there is inevitably a certain elitism that accompanies any "purist" cultural environment - whether it be the dominating one or not
I don't think it's fair to think of it in terms of elitism; "elitism" is a sort of imposition of power relations negative or hostile to the referer, always favouring the designating side

>if one language is attempting to dominate (suppress?) others, would it not be any different if a different language was dominating? Suppression would still exist, but in a different form.
I didn't say that this isn't so. In fact if you consider the world in terms of power relations or you're invested in a certain ontological view of the world, that almost makes sense except that the notion of suppression becomes another veiled imposition of power relations as I discussed above.

1/2

>>1479266
>Lastly, what exactly do you mean by "dominant class"? Are you referring specifically to the ones with the best financial status? How is their language distinct, exclusive, then? I mean, even within the dominant class itself there exist ideological differences.
I mean the class who have the most power, whatever this amounts to (it is always relative to context, but I hope you know what I mean as I have been talking about power relations etc). I am not saying their language is distinct or exclusive, but some language favors the dominant class, or the master, and is caught up in values etc, while some language favors the subservient class, or the slave. That is not to say this is inherent, saying this is again only on purely contextual grounds.

>>1479266
>I didn't say that this isn't so. In fact if you consider the world in terms of power relations or you're invested in a certain ontological view of the world, that almost makes sense except that the notion of suppression becomes another veiled imposition of power relations as I discussed above.
>I am not saying their language is distinct or exclusive, but some language favors the dominant class, or the master, and is caught up in values etc, while some language favors the subservient class, or the slave. That is not to say this is inherent, saying this is again only on purely contextual grounds.
lolololol

>>1479278
>I laugh at things I don't understand

>>1479278
deal with it

There will never be a unifying language ever. Different languages will always exist, and even in big languages like English and Mandarin, there are still regional and functional differences. And even if one language was left, language is eternally mutable. Variety is the spice of life. Why would you want to make life more bland? :(

>>1479287
I am. I'm dealing with it's hilarity!
>>1479284
Change "things that" to "people who", and yeah, pretty much.

I can understand, OP, but languages are interesting and a part of one's culture.

>>1479302
They all establish cultural identity and community.

>>1479266
>>1479267

Typed out a long response, but then realised it was going nowhere.

Basically:
when you say power relations, you refer to a process of aiming to establish oneself (in whatever context, for whatever reason) as the entity residing in the "top tier", correct?

Would you care to name or link drop, because this interests me, but I am clearly under/unequipped for a discussion?