/lit/ - Literature

>>14777749
Based

>>14777749
retard

>>14777749
If it was an infinitely long chain we would never have arrived at this moment.

>>14778146
>>14778626
Enroll in a remedial math class, morons.

>>14778635
How long does it take to count to infinity anon.

Aquinas's parents, hoping he might come to his senses, conspired to have him kidnapped and imprisoned for more than a year in the family castle. Aquinas got on with writing logical treatises, until his brothers tried to make him see the error of his ways by helpfully inserting a prostitute into his cell. Aquinas, in a perhaps unprecendented display of monkish restraint, did not succumb to her worldly charms, but rather, wielding a burning stick, chased her from the castle. That night two angels were said to have appeared to him in a dream, strengthening his resolve to remain celibate.

>>14778673
How long did god exist before he created the universe?

>>14778673
Count to five billion, starting now. Don't forget, posting might make you lose count and then you have to start over.

>>14778676
Blessed and Redpilled.

>>14778685
Nice try anon, god doesn't exist.

>>14778676
Wtf is that true

>>14778694

>>14778676
I love Catholicism so much.

>>14778673
As short a period of time as needed:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spacetime-supertasks/

>>14778716

Why? The post you replied to indicated nothing worth liking in Catholicism.

>>14778725
Burning prostitutes is pretty /lit/

>>14778731

His family was trying to help him. What is the matter with you?

Anons... I'm confused. isn't one of the testaments not to kill one's brother? Why would Aquinas make such an elementary mistake in logic?

>>14778755
You are seeing not as God sees, but as man sees.

>>14778755
They apparently didn't realize that the correct solution to weirdos in the family is to put them in a cloister.

>>14778775
>Genesis 9:6 - "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed"
>Romans 13:3-4 - "But if you do evil, be afraid, for [authority] does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer."
>Exodus 21:12 - "Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death."
>Leviticus 24:17 - "Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death."
And more. I'd also recommend this:
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3064.htm

>>14778803

Yes. And?

>>14778775
He's a Catholic, not a Christian. The Catholic church is political first, dogmatic second, etc. and then only at the sixth or so do we find Christian.

>>14778685
>Implying the Eternal Actual, upon which space and time derive their very existence to be actualized, is bound by space and time.
You don’t even understand the argument. And speculating on how long God existed before creation is retarded anyways. It’s so inconsequential to the overall argument it doesn’t even bear refuting.

>>14778816
Catholics are the only Christians that really matter.

>>14778676
Thots BTFO

>>14778826

He just explained to you that Catholics are not Christians. Why haven't you understood this?

>>14778826
"Shit the historically illiterate say" for 100.

>>14778813
I appreciate the sources. It aligns.

>>14778820
If god exists outside of space and time, space and and time are not universal properties.

>>14777749
Nigga's holding a church lmaooo

>>14778860
Since God became man through the flesh of Christ, he also existed within. Don't be so hasty in your premises anon...

>>14778860
They’re properties by which we, who exist as material and temporal beings, are universally bound to. God existence isn’t predicated on the material nor temporal, rather anything material or temporal relies on God for its continued reality, again, the Eternal Actual

>>14778879
So if god is subject to time how long was he around before he created the universe?

>>14778896
But you've acknowledged a being that doesn't have a beginning, god, and so can't claim that everything that exists has a beginning. So the universe has no beginning.

>>14778676
inspiring

>>14778920
I'm sorry bro but theologians have agreed to not ask these questions
Hope this helps

>>14778920
The argument very clearly states that anything which BEGINS to exist must have a cause...do you get it yet?

>>14778934
And I clearly said the universe has no BEGINNING.

>>14778937
Citation needed. The consensus very clearly leans towards a creation event, and even if there wasn’t, it doesn’t preclude the Eternal Actual existing alongside space and time, which being material realities still require an outside cause for sustainment. Also, Aquinas even clearly states that there very well may be other universes or realities wherein these things may not exist or may not exist how we observe them...have you even bothered to read the argument or are you deliberately shitposting?

>>14778958
I think this is all goofy semantics and am just pointing out that the argument against infinite regress in time is not valid. This kind of arguing from the dictionary convinces no one and only serves to reassure christcucks who see themselves left in intellectual backwater.

>>14778984
>I can’t understand the argument because there are concepts and words I don’t like so I’m just going to say you’re using big words that don’t mean anything
Sure is reddit in here

>>14778958
>being material realities still require an outside cause for sustainment

>>14778988
>which being material realities still require an outside cause for sustainment.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. Necessary and contingent don't carry the special meanings in normal usage that you want them to. It's like my saying god is defined as that which does not exist then saying your arguments are BTFO.

>>14778992
Because otherwise they couldn’t logically exist. Again, read the argument, try...just fucking try to understand it..,then come back and shitpost.

>>14779002
So what is god's outside cause of sustainment? And if god doesn't need one why do material entities? This is on even shakier ground than god being outside time.

>>14779009
I’m not going to do Aquinas’ work for him. Again, you can find the entirety to the Summa online for free. You can easily read through it if you care to.

>>14778828
>>14778832
One
True
Church

>>14777749
>a series of causes can be infinitely long
How? OP doesn't make sense
>>14778685
>how long does God exist before time?
There's no concept of time before God made time

>>14777749
Accepting an infinite causal chain means accepting that state as brute fact, which is a less elegant solution than accepting a first cause that exists by its nature.
Breaking the principle of sufficient reason has pretty bad consequences for knowledge in any consistent system.
>>14778676
Didn't he also burn a cross into the door with it?
>>14778725
Not rejecting a whore bought for you out of pity would be absolutely spineless.
>>14778816
Are proddie churches baptist or anglican or lutheran before they're Christian? At least with Catholicism it just means "universal Church".

>>14779034
See above. If god can exist outside time so can the universe and infinite regress problem solved.

>>14779042
>Didn't he also burn a cross into the door with it?
>>14778713
It's on the wall in the painting

I feel like gaytheists never contemplate the ramifications of "the universe creating itself" or "having always existed" What proof from the properties of the material universe do we have to support these properties?

>>14779058
Rofl what proof do we have that god has always existed from the material universe. Notice the pattern of all these objections you just replace god with the universe in whatever property you're claiming for god and they still work.

>>14779042
>Accepting an infinite causal chain means accepting that state as brute fact, which is a less elegant solution
How is something that is simpler and easier to understand "less elegant"

>>14779062
> you just replace god with the universe
The purported properties of any conception of God are not the same as the material universe which is why it's not a ridiculous claim. We can directly study the properties of the universe with the fabled scientific method which has lead to conclusions that the universe does not have the qualities to support an infinite regress, hence why this is an issue in the first place.

>>14779062
How many times do anons have to tell that the necessity for an Uncaused Cause is deduced from the argument and not an a priori assumption? Again READ THE FUCKING ARGUMENT

>>14778775
There's obviously an exception. Bankers and corporate executives must be guillotined immediately.

>>14779085
For creating the economic system whose benefits you enjoy every day?

>>14778775
>isn't one of the testaments not to kill one's brother?
No? Where does it say that?

>>14779077
Read what I was responding to. If the necessity for an uncaused cause is a priori why would we need a proof the material universe has that property?

>>14779074
Are you saying Aquinas's argument against infinite regress is a scientific one now lol?

>>14779088
Jesus overturned your table of sophistry, Jew.

>>14779105
retard lol retard lol, go read please and not more science

>>14779118
>We can directly study the properties of the universe with the fabled scientific method which has lead to conclusions that the universe does not have the qualities to support an infinite regress, hence why this is an issue in the first place.

What else does this mean? Is there some scientific argument against infinite regress you're not giving or are you still referring to Aquinas?

>>14779127
No retard, he’s saying that scientific consensus largely agrees that there was some sort of creation event. Even if there wasn’t, you’d still need to explain how the necessary conditions and even particles of matter came into existence in the first place.

This is the point where materialist cucks start resorting to faith in largely unsupported or unobservable phenomenon to escape the philosophers God. The amount of cognitive dissonance is astounding.

>>14779135
I already explained it the same way you explain god. The universe has always existed. I can't prove that with science but neither can you prove that god has always existed with science. And with these kind of goofy metaphysical arguments god and the universe are interchangeable without effecting the conclusion.

>>14778676
LITERALLY "begone thot"

Why are you people still so obsessed with Aquinas? Just let go already.

>>14779062
The uncaused cause deduced in the argument is necessarily absolutely simple, transcendent, etc. It's incompatible with "the universe" as a whole.
>>14779071
Because an entity defined by its existence is simpler than "lol the universe just exists under a random set of scientific principles because".

>>14779330
lol godjust exists under a random set of scientific principles because

>>14778685
God never existed for time before he created anything for time did not exist.

>>14778685
However long He wanted to.
Besides the point is that God must exist in this scenario because of the need for an unmoved mover, despite any apparent logical issues.

>>14778676
God damn.
How can one man be so fucking based.