/lit/ - Literature

>>14750952
You're overthinking too much.

>>14750963
Fair enough, but I figured I would at least ask before putting it in my backlog.

It's beautifully written and tells a very interesting story.

It's probably the best thing written in the last 300 years.

>A ziggurat lifted its dark head above the trees—yet carried the trees with it, for they sprouted from its crumbling walls like fungi from a dead tree.

>>14751128
>last 300 years

Entirely possible. Off the top of my head, its competitors are The Lord of the Rings and The Sound and the Fury. But BOTNS is indeed a great work. I hope it becomes more appreciated over time. It deserves to be acknowledged as a masterpiece.

>>14750952
It's as good as Gormenghast, yes. Read it.
So Gene Wolfe's initial Book of the New Sun tetralogy is: The Shadow of the Torturer (1980), The Claw of the Conciliator (1981), The Sword of the Lictor (1982) and The Citadel of the Autarch (1983), Lately they're published in two omnibus volumes: Shadow & Claw and Sword & Citadel.
The Urth of the New Sun (1987) serves as a fifth volume, or coda, to the Book of the New Sun series.
Then we have the The Book of the Long Sun tetralogy:
Nightside the Long Sun (1993), Lake of the Long Sun (1994), Caldé of the Long Sun (1994), and Exodus from the Long Sun (1996). These are also published in two omnibus albums: Litany of the Long Sun and Epiphany of the Long Sun.
Then we have the The Book of the Short Sun trilogy:
On Blue's Waters (1999) In Green's Jungles (2000) Return to the Whorl (2001). Those three books were collected in a single omnibus edition titled The Book of the Short Sun.
All three Sun series (The Book of the New Sun, The Book of the Long Sun, and The Book of the Short Sun) are referred to collectively as the "Solar Cycle," which is comprised of all twelve books.

>>14750952
It transcends its genre in a way that Ubik doesn't, really. Quite a good literary work, though it takes puzzling out in a way most don't.

>>14752644
Of those, which would you say are worth reading? Is there a cut-off point in terms of quality?

>>14750952
BOTNS is super good. It's one of those books with perspective shifts that reveal the grander nature of the story.

It really is better than almost any fantasy you could read.

>>14752682
Not him but I would end probably after BOTNS.

I haven't finished all of Litany yet but the first couple hundred pages fucking suck and the intro chapter is cringe.

>>14752644
How are Long and Short Sun?
I only read up to and including Urth, I got Litany of the Long Sun on my bookshelf

>>14752682
If you only want to read BotnS I would read Urth as well, it's a sort of epilogue
Beginning is a bit jarring but I enjoyed it and it's a nice ending to the series

>>14752682
They're all good, but the New Sun cycle ends with Urth, and those books are the best. Long Sun is set on a generation ship and Short Sun features the inhabitants of that generation ship after their long journey. They share a narrator and Short Sun recounts a search for Silk, the Long Sun hero, but they really form a separate series from Severian's saga (same universe).

>>14750952
It's part of the meme quadrilogy

>>14750952
It's good but there are much more profound sci-fi books out there

>>14752682
I can only speak to Book of the New Sun and Litany of the Long Sun. Both are very worth reading.
>>14752742
I'm curious what you'd point to? I've read a lot of scifi and haven't found that to be the case.

>>14752779
The Left Hand of Darkness and The Dispossessed by Le Guin
Nova and Dhalgren by Delaney

I think of Book of the New Sun as being very much like the first few Dune books. It's great but honestly I think anyone who says it "transcends the genre" is just spouting a meme opinion. Wolfe's prose is better than most in sci-fi but imo Delaney has the best style of anyone I've read in the genre

>>14752817
Thanks Anon I will check them out
Personally I liked BotnS a lot and thought Dune was ass

>>14752817
I’m under the impression that Dune is a lot pulpier than BOTNS, is that not the case?

>>14750952
God Wolfe is a really cool last name.

>>14752817
Left Hand of Darkness doesn't seem on the same level as Book of the New Sun, either in style or profundity. It's certainly great sci-fi, just not quite on the same level.
Delaney has a different enough style from Wolfe that it's hard to call one directly better, I'd say both transcend "just" sci-fi and are appreciable as literature as well.
>>14753163
Dune is vastly pulpier than Wolfe's work, though still among the better sci-fi works.

I feel like it's fair to count BOTNS as actual literature given that its themes aren't strictly "sci-fi"-ish. Arguably the biggest theme of the book is about memory and time, and how the former alters, and doesn't alter, the latter. It almost reminds you of Proust. That's different than something like an Asimov book, where the sci-fi elements do directly inform the book's bigger themes. BOTNS feels more "universal" in a way world literature tends to do.

>>14750952
don't bother
sexist crap

>>14752682
>>14752694
Long and Short Sun's protagonist is a supernaturally charismatic space Moses that has lost faith in his old Gods, but found a new God when it spoke to him and gave him a mission
They are way more optimistic than Dying sun,
and feels to be entirely dialogue at times (I like this), so there are less of the rich descriptions you have in the first books

It got a beautiful ending as you come to see how genuinely good the protagonist is

General themes? ..Identity?
About a young man trying to emulate his internal picture of his role model - how he should be - to serve his neighbours as a priest, as he gains more and more responsibility as a community leader
Without ambition, entirely responsibility
Then to eventually become him
Lots of levels to this theme in both book-series

>>14753314
>2011, ahead of the times
These are the weirdest reasons I've heard to call Wolfe a misogynist
Urth is never portrayed as good place, it's a striking dystopia, a 'dying world'
How can you criticize a fictional world, that is supposed to be terrible and have atrocities. have terrible people, for being exactly that?

If you want to pick at things, you got a realer things to pick at.
Like, Wolfe is a writer that writes his own thoughts on things, both hypothetically and in a way to disagree with and attack
It's not obvious when he sets up a thing to be attack, or presents it's as a good idea

He's obviously a traditionalist, to these people, at least. Why not attack that?
Also incapable of writing women to depth, as he is a man himself, and writes stuff from his own life

>>14752689
Long Sun is only OK but the god-tier Short Sun requires you to have read LS first.

>>14752682
All of them, though keep in mind they're three different works with different narrators, prose styles and storytelling methods.

>>14752817
Eh. I like Delaney's shorter works but Dhalgren did nothing for me.

>>14752689
Books 1 and 2 of long sun are pretty okay. 3 and 4 are god awful.

>the tunnels
>the airship female warriors or whatever

Jesus Christ that book got shit quickly and I loved BOTNS

>>14750952
No idea, but just got my copy of the books in and I'm psyched to get into it. Though I wish the books I purchased were larger with a larger font size.

>>14754085
Yeah the typeface is pretty small
It's nice when you read Urth and the letters are all big suddenly

Why is Urth so fucking BORING? There’s seriously such a huge whiplash going from the end of Citadel to the beginning of Urth.

>However, in an earlier editorial in Modern Plant Manager, [Wolfe] revealed the surprising secret behind his productivity. "At the moment of ejaculation, I slide my thumb over the meatus, reserving the substance and spirit of the male orgasm for my own purpose. I find that I gain intense focus and nearly boundless energy after doing this. I recall going out to mow the lawn, sitting down to toss off a short story for Omni magazine, and sending my astral body off to spy on an old college girlfriend, and when I looked up at the clock on my desk, only 18 minutes had elapsed!"
LMFAO at all the mental midgets that still think this is some kind of catholic allegory

>>14754871
The story picks up the pace once Sev stops fucking around in zero-G and goes down to the planet.
>"Okay, let me just walk down this corrido...OH NOOOOOO!"

>>14753800
Boring tunnel stuff is mostly book 2. Book 3 has cool city-state revolutions and foreign invasions.

I thought book 4 dragged though.

>>14754973
>walk down this corrido...OH NO
It keeps happening!

>>14755051
Saved.

So if Silk is a messiah is Horn supposed to be a Pauline figure or a more general example of perfect discipleship?

>>14755082
>book 4

>Silk held a really, really, really great speech for the people to rally them
>No, I'm not going to recite it
Jesus-anticlimax-Wolfe

>>14755051
I just remember being constantly turned on by that whore being completely nude for like a whole book. Gene musta been horny

>>14755133
Horn's role changes in the last 4 books, or rather get's expanded on
It's the main theme of the book, and with a bit more of a scifi-twist for it to fit a clear parallel

The settup for him in Long Sun makes it very satisfying to read Short Sun

>>14755051
What WAS the point of him struggling with his ankle for 80% of the books, when he always overcame it without it being too much of an issue?

>>14755152
Skipping over the important bits is a Wolfe staple

>>14755209
IIRC it was a biblical reference but I'm not sure to whom.

>>14755209
It certainly illustrated that Silk was willing to go through personal hardships to help others, to a fault

>>14754871
What's boring about it?

>>14755209
So you could have the ridiculous image of Silk beating off his ultrasonic ankle-wrap while he's having these deep conversations, or being held at gunpoint.
Also served the plot purpose to tie him to the doctor/spy character. And his athleticism being slightly limited for a while.

>>14755209
>>14755618
I thought is was supposed to be Vulcan/Hephaestus

>>14750952
>transcends its genre in the same way that books like Gormenghast or Ubik
Its much better than Ubik but worse than Gormenghast. I have read the majority of the praised sci-fi/fantasy books here and Gormenghast was by far the best.

>>14751128
>It's probably the best thing written in the last 300 years.
This is what genrefaggots actually believe.

>>14755966
>This is what genrefaggots actually believe.
Yes.
Wolfe is also the best American writer of the 20th century.

>>14755966
the only genrefaggots are people who preclude books based on genre

>>14754871
The first fourth or fifth of the book is kinda boring but I couldn't put it down after a certain point.

>>14755209
>>14755906
Severian also got his leg badly hurt and was known as 'the lame' by begging of Urth
He neither got any of Hephaestus that comes to mind

>>14756538
I made the Hephaestus connection because of his limp and being the child of Zeus and Hera in some traditions and in others being a parthenogenous child of Hera. The parthenogenesis connects him to Silk being an embryo implanted in his "mother's" uterus as well as Jesus.

>>14756597
oh and Hephaestus getting married to Aphrodite and then cucked by Ares is mirrored with Hyacinth fugging one of the Tiviguantis.

>>14750952
Why does it matter?

Is Urth worth reading or should I just skip it and read Long Sun?

>>14750952
I read the first book and in my opinion, no it's not good 'for real literature.'

>>14756634
If you felt confused by the end of New Sun it will answer some questions you had while introducing new ones. I like it, but it's not really required as almost everything in there is at least hinted at in the first 4 books.

>>14755954
OP here, Gormenghast is fucking excellent. I didn’t anticipate that BOTNS would be better but I just wanted to know if it was comparably literary.

>>14756633
It’s not that complicated. I just wanted to know if the series was worthwhile and literary.

Is there anything more pretentious than thinking "genre fiction" is below you?

>>14756597
>>14756617
is this a Dr. Seuss book?

>>14756983
probably thinking this is the best thing written in the last 300 years.

>>14756983
> Having standards and not wanting to read purely for entertainment makes you “pretentious”

Go back to r/books.

>>14757858
>if it has magic it has now literary value
I suppose you either:
1. Believe that all good fantasy is actually not fantasy, regardless whether or not it has magic, mythical creatures, Zeus turning women into cows, people just randomly creating worlds, etc. and use terms like "magical realism" and "that's not what we mean when we say fantasy" a lot.
2. Think that Ovid, Homer, Goethe, John Crowley, Peake, Borges, etc. are not that good

Either way, go fuck yourself faggot

>>14758210
I don’t mean genre fantasy as in “any work that contains magic” you fucking retard, I mean genre fantasy as in pulpy shit made for entertainment like Brandon Sanderson or ASOIAF or whatever other dumb shit “fantasy nerds” like.

I even listed Peake in the OP as an author I like you absolute mongoloid.

>>14758210
Not to mention I didn’t even say anything about genre fiction being bad. There are good genre works, hence my comparison to Peake and PKD, I wanted to know if this was one such genre work with literary value.

>>14758426
You define fantasy as "anything bad".
The term has been used for centuries you absolute mongoloid, and no one allowed you to redefine it.
Homer is every bit as genre fiction as Wolfe. Now kys, filtered.

>>14758479
All genre fiction has some degree of "literary value"

>>14750952

I mean this board recommends it in the sticky.

(currently reading The Stand, The gap into power:ADHGA, gulag archipelago, This spoke Zarathustra)

Why did I mention those books? Because while some are fiction and others are non fiction I haven't been able to deduce if any of these works have any meaningful impact on my life/approach to it.

Like is it shlocky if it's entertaining? Like is all entertainment shlock? Thonk about that for a second, kinda depressing. If I'm not making sense; I'm basically asking the same question but about books as a whole, no amount of reading can fix my subpar IQ.

>>14759450
Why does fiction have to make a meaningful impact on your life? Why can't you just enjoy it for what it's doing and trying to convey? From my experience, there hasn't been any book I've read that has really 'changed my life', and I think approaching stuff with the mindset that it will change your outlook on the world can negatively impact your opinion on books.

>>14759410
Literally where have I said that fantasy is bad.

I’m making a distinction between literary fantasy like Homer or Peake and genre fantasy, by which I mean shitty, cliched stuff that easily fits into a prescribed series of tropes/aesthetics typical within the lowest form of that genre. People read shit like Sanderson and Martin for retarded stuff like hard magic systems, meaningless lore, and elves and dragons or whatever. Nobody is reading stuff like Homer or Peake for that same experience and you are absolutely retarded to pretend that both kinds of works should just be blanketed under “fantasy” or “genre fiction” without any distinction. The fact that you immediately assumed I was attacking all of fantasy by making a distinction between good, literary stuff from schlock and consider that “pretentious” is the most Reddit-tier opinion I’ve seen in a while.

>>14759419
This is just antfucking over semantics. Obviously I just meant that I wanted to know whether BOTNS is good fantasy like Peake or something bad and pulpy.

>>14759621
It's a bit of both worlds. It has some pulpy elements (the protag fucks every girl he meets) but also has great prose and worldbuilding.

>>14753314
god I hate women