/lit/ - Literature

>>14695345
Not how anti-depressants work

>>14695345
soma =/= anti depressants

soma doesn't make the people happy when they take it which is more akin to just mindless escapism/entertainment

>>14695345
Yeah. There are still plenty of people whose depression is largely chemical and they will always need antidepressants; but I'd say a pretty big chunk of people would be able to do without them if we didn't live in this consumerist-coomerist-doomerist hell. It's not just antidepressants though. See also alcohol + others, television shows, fast food.

>>14695351
Explain your reasoning, because from experience, that is EXACTLY how they worked for me, and I have every reason to believe that's how they work for everybody.

Doctors don't even know the exact way in which antidepressants make people more happy. They just know that they do (and I don't doubt this, from my own experience - I felt a noticeable psychoactive effect, and this is from a couple of different antidepressants I've been on).

>>14695446
>soma doesn't make the people happy when they take it
Yes it literally does.

>mindless escapism/entertainment
That's different. In the book there are the "feelies" which are movies that have a sensation of touch as well, transmitted electronically when you touch some metal contacts. They would constitute "mindless entertainment".

Soma is a drug, not a form of entertainment, although I suppose you could feel entertained from the psychoactive effects of the drug.

>>14695530
>There are still plenty of people whose depression is largely chemical and they will always need antidepressants
I do not think there is evidence for that at all. What there is evidence for is that genetics might play a role in depression; it's thought that 37% of your risk of "major depressive disorder" a.k.a. "major depression" (a diagnosis in the DSM) might be genetic. But the other 63% is thought to be from environmental factors.

Furthermore, we don't know what those genes are (those percentages are from twin studies, they don't actually analyse specific genes). I think scientists are only just looking at what the genes might be, and what they might actually do; a couple of studies on this have come out in the last couple of years.

So we absolutely do not have evidence to say that these genes cause a "chemical" case of depression (by which I assume you mean the body naturally produces lower levels of certain chemicals). The evidence for that hypothesis, to my knowledge, does not exist. Because we have no idea which genes increase your risk of depression, or HOW they do so.

But of course the genes are only thought to contribute 37% of your risk anyway, so even if you had bad genes, it seems that the majority of your risk stems from the environment / events in your life anyway.

>>14695530
Also if you want a source for the 37% / 63% stats:
>https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.157.10.1552

Carisoprodol.

It’s a muscle relaxant.

Soma isnt something you are constantly on like antidepressants though
When you take Soma you trip for a few hours and thats it
Soma is supposed to be MDMA mixed with low yield psychedelics

>>14697406
The purpose is functionally the same though: in the book, they take soma in order to ignore their real problems / the hellish existence they find themselves in.

I would say it's the same for antidepressants. People take them to ignore their reality. Really, if you're depressed, it's your body's way of telling you that you're unsatisfied with your current life. You should take action to correct this. Taking that action isn't always easy, but nothing good in life comes for free.

>>14695345
Replace anti depressants with digital entertainment and you got it right. Escapism is cheaper, easier, has less stigma and is more damaging because it taints your concept of reality with illusions and virtual fantasies

>>14698084
No, digital entertainment is equivalent to the FEELIES that are featured in the book. They're movies that also have a sense of touch. You put your hands on some metal contacts, and it electrically introduces touch sensations.

Remember that Brave New World was published in 1932, just after the "talkies" (movies with sound) had become popular. That's why the name "feelies" made sense at the time.

So I think soma and antidepressants are definitely analogues to each other. They are both drugs that are designed to induce artificial happiness. And both of them inhibit your ability to properly perceive, and respond to, negative things around you.

I say this from my own experience of taking antidepressants, and from having family members who took them. They make you artificially happy about your life, because that's the whole POINT of them. But it means you're not responding to things in the way that your SOBER mind would (again, that's kind of the point).

Living life sober is difficult. But is it not better to face your thoughts head on? To realise what your TRUE opinion of the world is? Only then can you recognise the things in your life that really need to be fixed.

Example. In the book, the people take soma to ignore the fact that they're living under a dystopian government, in a society that is occupied with trivial hedonism, in order to distract itself from the fact that none of them have freedom.

Similarly, someone taking antidepressants might be trying to distract themselves from the fact that they actually hate their job, or they're being pushed around at work by someone they need to stand up to, something like that.

In both cases, the drug is used to induce an artificial sense of happiness, and to pretend that one's real life problems don't exist. But the problems are still there.

Soma is something everyone takes all the time.

Only a tiny number of people who mostly actually need it get anti-depressants and the goal is to not have them take it forever.

>>14695351
Fundamentally they are occupied with the symptoms, not the roots of what causes them. Much is prevalent nowadays.

>>14698558
>Only a tiny number of people who mostly actually need it get anti-depressants and the goal is to not have them take it forever.
You say that but antidepressant use is rising all the time, and also the number of long-term users has been rising. Pic related.

For everyone in the US above the age of 12, between 2011 and 2014:
>Fact 1 (top left graph)
12.7% of them reported being on antidepressants in the previous month. Given the trend, this number is very likely to be higher now. That's not a "tiny number". That's over 1 in 8.
>Fact 2 (bottom right graph)
68% of those on antidepressants had been on them for TWO YEARS OR MORE.
>Fact 3 (top right graph)
If you find it interesting, white people are much more likely than any other race in the US to take antidepressants, and women are much more likely than men to take them.

>>14698558
>>14699081
Also if that post is too long here's the TLDR:

>12.7% of everyone in the US above the age of 12, between 2011 and 2014, reported being on antidepressants in the last month (and the trend shows that it's growing at a steady pace)
>68% of those on antidepressants had been on them for TWO YEARS OR MORE

>>14698411
Who are you to say that a mind without drugs is more able to see the world as it truly is? It's easy to say it's the fault of society. The point is a sort of compromise, the best you can achieve at least, between your desires are your reality.

>>14698411
Also, drugs should be prescribed ONLY if there is no alternative and the person is not able to recover through psychotherapy, and is at high psychopathological risk (unable to self sustain at all, take care of self, is suicidal etch)

>>14695345
https://discord.gg/B8z4G37

>>14699173
>Who are you to say that a mind without drugs is more able to see the world as it truly is?
A mind without drugs is one that has been fashioned by 4.5 BILLION years of evolution.

It's also a very similar mind to the one that is shared by OVER SEVEN BILLION fellow humans on the planet.

The list of human accomplishments WITHOUT antidepressants is astronomically larger than the list of human accomplishments WITH antidepressants. And that's probably still true even if you just take the past 10 years, when antidepressants are now commonplace, given that the vast majority of society doesn't take antidepressants. To look at some data, in poor parts of the UK, 1 in 6 adults are prescribed antidepressants. In wealthy parts of central London, it's 1 in 21. If antidepressants helped people achieve great success then you would think the wealthy people in London would be chowing down on them, right?

Source:
>[I]n many places in the UK – including Barnsley, Durham, Middlesbrough, Redcar, Salford and Sunderland – approximately one in six adults are prescribed antidepressants. By comparison, in affluent Kensington & Chelsea, it is one in 21.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/apr/13/antidepressants-paper-over-cracks-fractured-society-prozac

Given the success of the sober human mind over the centuries, I think it's probably quite accurate at perceiving reality. I think any sort of psychoactive drug is NECESSARILY going to distort that perception (even just low doses of something like caffeine will alter your perception slightly).

You might say:
>But this is survivorship bias - lots of people killed themselves over the centuries from depression! They weren't all successful!
That's true. But they were probably perceiving reality properly; as Hume said, nobody kills themselves without a good reason. However, this does NOT mean you have to kill yourself, it's just a possible response (of many) to hard times. Other responses include, yes, antidepressants, or turning to spiritual ideas that might help you, or whatever. It's up to you. If you like antidepressants then by all means take them. I am not a fan myself, but many people find them helpful.

>>14699280
True. This isn't always the case though, especially since psychotherapy isn't always available. In my country, the UK, there is a massive waiting list for trying to get talking therapies on the NHS (national health service, the public health service). So a lot of people get prescribed antidepressants.

Which is fine; if it helps them, and as long as it's their own choice to take them, then that's fine. People should always be allowed to do what they want, as long as it's not harming others.

But it's not the only way to overcome hard times. People have known for millennia that hard times are a part of life. That's why people had religion. And religion sure ain't perfect (I see no evidence for a supernatural deity), but it did have a lot of moral lessons and parables that helped a lot of people get through difficult times.

I'm not shilling religion though, I'm not religious, I'm just saying that's one potential answer. Some people turn to meditation and eastern religions. Or just meditation by itself.

Whatever helps you think positive, that's a good thing, but it should be your choice. Staying positive in life isn't always easy but it's possible with effort.

Happiness is happiness, whether it came from some nebulous struggle or achievement, or a drug. If the end result is the same, what does it matter? That’s the thing about BNW— the people there are HAPPY. Is it a false happiness? Does it matter?

A GRAM IN TIME SAVES NINE!

>>14699595
I hope you die a painful and gruesome death.

Antidepressants are nowhere near as fun as Soma
I take LSD if I want to escape from my problems, I take antidepressants so I can get out of bed

>>14700427
You can still get out of bed without them. You just don't believe that you can.

Also if your life is making you so unhappy then clearly there's something wrong with your life.

Maybe you don't like your job. In which case either improve that one or get a new one. You could try upskilling in your current job in order to improve your salary and life prospects. You could even try becoming self-employed if you accrue the necessary skills to do that.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

>>14700644
This is all way easier said than done. The problem is that with depression, there is no will at all. There's barely a will to get out of bed in the morning. Nobody is going to read your post and go "Wow, all I have to do is get a new job? This advice cured my depression."

>>14700644
>Also if your life is making you so unhappy then clearly there's something wrong with your life.
>Maybe you don't like your job.
I don't disagree with your sentiment but if you think severe chronic depression is as simple as 'get a new job' you don't know the first thing about people's suffering.

>>14700644
You don't actually know what depression is.

Likely the effects you felt from taking antidepressants were due to a placebo effect.

There is an issue in how easily anti-depressants are prescribed these days to people who are stressed or in unhappy situations but not actually depressed, I imagine this is what happened to you.

The fact that you think the effects of anti-depressants are comparable to soma speaks volumes.

Unhappiness is not caused by the difficult aspects of life, but by our relation to them. Believing you would be happy if you could get more atoms to do your bidding is ultimately vanity and nihilism. Read Ecclesiastes.

>>14695627
Anti-depressants don't work as happy pills and are thus not likely to be abused, unlike amphetamines, weed, coffee, etc

Your experience is perhaps related to the kind of drug you took and the reason you took it

Does that mean that videogames are vertical tennis?
And netflix is hydroplane soccer?

Penfield mood organ > soma

>>14695530
Hunter gatherers tribes have for all practical purpose no depression. That wouldn't be the case if there were depressions purely caused by brain chemical imbalances.

>>14695351
It actually doesn't matter if antidepressants are the same as soma in practice. The problem in BNW and in our times is that people need to take drugs at all in order to function.

>>14702053
mind altering drugs, even

>>14695345
>And this is what I think of when I see modern antidepressants. People take these happy pills in order to artificially inflate their mood, and to try and ignore the difficult aspects of life, the things that are actually causing their unhappiness.
>Anyone else feel this same way? I can't be the only one.
I don't quite think it's a one one anon but you're right that its expressive of the same thing.

But that's only if Huxley's Brave New World is a dystopia, and not a utopia as possibly him, and at least some of his surrounding people had thought.

>>14695530
>chemicals in brain change because you're becoming depressed
>is depressed
>chemicals are different

>>14695345
want a fun rabbit hole?

https://www.hedweb.com

these folks see it happening and want to advance and increase it under the idea that our brains are the actual cause of unhappiness, and environmental factors that cause unhappiness are created by vestigial behavior. are they right? no idea, but it seems society might be moving closer to that idea than the idea of being sober in an actual utopia.

>>14695345
Sadly the vast majority of people desperately want to bring about and live in Brave New World.

>>14702140
Including Huxley himself. He actually saw it as a utopia. Most people don't realize that.

>>14702140
Brave New World was awesome
>big titty alpha plus gfs
>feelies
>soma
>can go to an island if you dont want to participate in society

>>14695345
>Anyone else read this book?
Yes, and it's scary how much it resembles our world currently

>>14702211
>tfw barely literate delta
>never going to have futurosex with big tiddy alpha plus gf
why even live

>>14700792
>This is all way easier said than done.
Of course it fucking is. Climbing Everest is easier said than done isn't it? No fucking shit, literally every fucking thing is.

>The problem is that with depression, there is no will at all
Then get some will. Decide if you want a shit life or whether you want a good life. Decide if you want to fight back against the people trying to get you down in life. Fight back against learned helplessness.

>>14700844
It's as simple as fixing your life yes, although that might not just be a job, but also your relationships, diet, all this shit.

>HURR DURR YOU DON'T KNOW MAN
Ad hominem - not an argument.

>>14701217
>You don't actually know what depression is
Ad hominem - not an argument.

>Likely the effects you felt from taking antidepressants were due to a placebo effect.
No, I strongly disagree. I've taken a couple and felt strong psychoactive effects. And studies have shown that they are more effective than placebo, so I'm confident (and so are doctors) that they have a psychoactive effect. Also, I have taken other psychoactive drugs in the past (e.g. illegal ones) so I have experienced drugs having psychoactive effects on me before - i.e. I know what it's like to feel a psychoactive effect. But yes that's anecdotal. So just go with what the doctors are saying if you want:
>anti-depressants were all more effective at reducing symptoms of acute depression than dummy pills
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43143889

>The fact that you think the effects of anti-depressants are comparable to soma speaks volumes
Personal incredulity is a fallacy - not an argument: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/personal-incredulity

>>14701342
>Anti-depressants don't work as happy pills
Yes they literally do work as happy pills. But the difference, compared to the other drugs you mentioned, is that antidepressants are slow burners. They take time to work. The effect is not immediate. This is well-known.

They are still happy pills though. The science says that they DO have a psychoactive effect, compared to dummy pills:
>anti-depressants were all more effective at reducing symptoms of acute depression than dummy pills
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43143889

>>14701985
I would guess that Huxley would see video games and Netflix as distractions that keep us from recognising, and fighting back against, the manipulative forces of society. They're like the "feelies" in his book (movies that have a sense of feeling, transmitted through electrical contacts). In fact his concept of the "feelies" is not hugely unlike video games. Also, regarding the name "feelies", remember that Brave New World was published in 1932, just after the rise of the "talkies" (movies with sound). So the name made sense at the time.

>In regard to propaganda the early advocates of universal literacy and a free press envisaged only two possibilities: the propaganda might be true, or it might be false. They did not foresee what in fact has happened, above all in our Western capitalist democracies—the development of a vast mass communications industry, concerned in the main neither with the true nor the false, but with the unreal, the more or less totally irrelevant. In a word, they failed to take into account man’s almost infinite appetite for distraction.
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Aldous_Huxley

If that quote is TLDR, just look at the last bit: "man's almost infinite appetite for distraction". Huxley believed that this distraction would be our undoing. We would be lured in by irrelevant media (like sensationalist news, TV designed to exploit your emotions, etc.), which would make humans passive, and less likely to fight back against the powerful in society.

>>14702075
No, he definitely thought it was a dystopia. Have you not read it? If you read it, there is no way you will be confused about what Huxley's message is.

>>14702080
Indeed, all emotions are chemical, so to say "depression is chemical" doesn't mean anything.

If someone committed murder would you say "it was just brain chemicals, so they're innocent"?

Now, some depressed people MIGHT have brain problems, but the evidence for this is really very scant at the moment. Scientists don't yet at all understand the genes that affect the brain.

>>14702143
No he fucking didn't you fucking idiot.
>By means of ever more effective methods of mind-manipulation, the democracies will change their nature; the quaint old forms— elections, parliaments, Supreme Courts and all the rest—will remain. The underlying substance will be a new kind of non-violent totalitarianism. All the traditional names, all the hallowed slogans will remain exactly what they were in the good old days. Democracy and freedom will be the theme of every broadcast and editorial—but democracy and freedom in a strictly Pickwickian sense. Meanwhile the ruling oligarchy and its highly trained elite of soldiers, policemen, thought-manufacturers and mind-manipulators will quietly run the show as they see fit.
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Aldous_Huxley#Brave_New_World_Revisited_(1958)

How the fuck is that utopian, you fucking idiot?

>>14703152
Exactly.

>>14703492
I feel kinda bad for the elites, who believe atom manipulation is worth all that trouble.

How do you get prescribed anti-depressants? Do you literally just go to a doctor an say 'i'm depressed' ;_;

>>14703507
>dude, fucking hot women is meaningless because it's just "atom manipulation"
>dude, becoming king of the world is meaningless because it's just "atom manipulation"
>dude, having a family and spreading your genes is meaningless because it's just "atom manipulation"
Take your pathetic nihilism and shove it up your arse

>>14703542
Depends; these days, I think (and hope), if they think you are only moderately depressed then they will recommend lifestyle changes / diet changes / healthy amounts of exercise.

>>14695345
>Anyone else read this book?
Fucking newfag

>>14703584
>literally nothing to say whatsoever, just butthurt
You are a pathetic imbecile, you fucking dolt.

>>14703589
>reddit spacing
>asking if we've read one of the most popular books there is
>using it as an excuse to ask babys first existentialist question

>>14695345
Lot49 is better

>>14703625
Oh right so you got here literally last week, I see.

You are a seething moron who is throwing a tantrum because you're incapable of saying anything rational.

You are pathetic.

>>14695345
holy newfag

>brave new world
>dystopia

>>14703963
yes, and?

>>14695345
Internet is the real soma

It's not supposed to be dystopian. It's a gradual utilitarian creep.

>>14703677
newfag cringe

>>14703436
"You don't actually know what depression is" is a completely fair to say since it's evident that you don't know what you're talking about.
>if you don't have a will, then get some will
Do you have any idea how stupid this sounds?

>>14703477
>>If someone committed murder would you say "it was just brain chemicals, so they're innocent"?

imagine believing in free will

The last time I stopped taking my anti-depressants, I slid into a rage and sliced my shoulder open with a Swiss army knife. Nigger, I I'm not trying to ignore the difficult aspects of life, I'm trying not to fucking hurt myself.

>>14703963
>>14703997
You've literally never read it have you?

>>14703960
>>14704103
Seething pathetic cuckolded morons cringe.

>>14703477
>scientists

>>14704558
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/personal-incredulity

You can't argue because you're a moron. You can only have an emotional little tantrum.

>>14695345
Seems right to me. Some people need them to get through rough patches though.It's hard to pull yourself out when it gets that bad.

>>14705078
That's unfortunate, but with greater self-control, and by challenging your energy into something productive, I am sure you could live a better life.

Also, if you find your emotions still uncontrollable, I'd recommend therapy or counselling. If you do it, get the things off your chest that annoy you the most. A good counsellor is able to identify the themes in what you're saying, even if you've never noticed them yourself. This is what happened for me. My counsellor was a solid dude.

It beats nullifying yourself with drugs.

>>14705253
That's true. But nothing good in life comes easy. Strength of character and determination are needed.

>>14705318
Aye, I'm trying to read a lot more these days to keep my mind focused. I've done quite a bit of therapy over the years. Problem I have is that I often go off the handle before I can even bring myself to use the techniques they teach you. It's been a gradual decline over the years that started off as stress and anxiety then slowly morphed into bouts of depression, tension and anger bursts. It's very hard to control without the medication. My mother and auntie are severely bipolar so that kind of shit runs in the family.

One counsellor suggested I may be on the spectrum as well but the psychologists at the hospital knocked back her recommendation because I wasn't considered a serious case at the time. This was before the shoulder incident, so I may have to open up about that.

>>14705177
>because you found something difficult to understand, or are unaware of how it works
So this is referring to you being unaware of how depression works? Glad we're on the same page

Functionally, Soma is dissociatives.

Which Psychiatric Cult is using right now in Ketamine Therapy in California btw.
The overprescription of Benzos is being used to dissociate people as well. It's an adventure you'll never remember.

Well Huxley and his brother literally wanted to create BNW in real life and spent their lives working towards it leading to what's going on now

>>14705377
No it's referring to you not being able to understand my argument, which is why you're getting butthurt, and why you can't make a counterargument.

Look, you're doing it again.

That's okay, I accept you conceding the argument. If you're too fucking stupid to argue, well, then, maybe read more or educate yourself in other ways to try and improve your mental aptitude. Might not work in your case though, I think your stupidity might be unfixable.

>>14703182
You're too dumb to realize you want sex with a big tiddy alpha plus gf. You're perfectly happy with your Soma-fueled orgies with all the other Deltas and if that ever gets boring, you can always have feelie-sex with a big tiddy alpha plus gf.

>>14705638
Your argument (at least, the aspect of it I am replying to) is to "have the will to change your life." My response was that depression robs you of the will to the extent that it makes it difficult to even get out of bed, let alone make significant changes in your life. Your response to that was, simply, "well then get a will," showing you lack a basic understanding of depression and have poor reading comprehension. It's not so simple as "deciding if you want a shit life or a good life." This was my (and a few others') original point, and there's no point in making another counterargument since you didn't bother to adjust your argument in the first place

>>14705376
Fair enough. Yeah I think bipolar is meant to have some degree of heritability... but that doesn't mean it's fatalistic. People who have genes that are associated with certain mental illnesses do not always develop them.

Medical research into this should really be better. We should be able to understand what exact genes do what. So we can really see whether someone has something physical that is causing them to be a certain way, or whether it's stuff in their life causing them to be a certain way.

Anyway. Fair enough. Hope you manage to get better in life man, however you manage to do it.

>>14705553
>Well Huxley and his brother literally wanted to create BNW in real life and spent their lives working towards it
Source? What the fuck are you talking about?

>>14705741
>My response was that depression robs you of the will
Well, fight back harder. You can, you just don't think you can. But you can, if you believe in yourself.

>showing you lack a basic understanding of depression
This is literally ad hominem. Not an argument.

>>14695345
I feel like our reality takes after the worst elements of Brave New World and 1984.

We have mass surveillance, both self-directed and external. We are constantly lied to by the government and pitted against each other to fight pointless causes. Injustices go unpunished. 90% of people work a lot in return for very little. A small group of powerful people with only their own interests in mind dictate the direction of humanity. To detach from this, we escape into insignificant comforts including mindless entertainment, sex and recreational drug abuse while the world around us is torn apart.

To answer your question, the activity of soma as described in the book is more closely related to recreational drugs like ecstasy or MDMA in my opinion. It provokes feelings of euphoria and in a specific chapter I recall that in combination with feelies it caused hallucinations. In my experience prescription antidepressants aren't quite as similar because they have more of a numbing effect, which make you at peace with your darker thoughts rather than actually happy.