/lit/ - Literature

>>14686701
What are some flaws of marx or are you a brainwashed faggot like every other Marxist?

>>14686722
I guess he’s talking about le universal income chinaman, not Marx.

Marx failed to consider technology.

>>14686701
>the terms capitalism and socialism emerged during a time before self-driving cars
That's literally true though.

>>14686722
>>14686729
Yang literally said that last night on the debate

I was embarrassed when I heard people saying he implied this but then I watched the debate and he literally didn't
He was asked if Bernie's self describing as a democratic socialist made him an irresponsible/misguided choice of candidate
His response was that the capitalism/socialism dichotomy has become tired and useless in public discourse by this point (which it has) and that we need to update our discussions to account for a labor market that will be unrecognizable in the next few decades

Bernie>Yang>>>>>Klobuchar>>Steyer>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Warren>Biden=Buttigieg

>>14686786
>Bernie at first
>Warren below fucking Klobuchar and Steyer even though she's in 90% agreement with Bernie's policies
What did you mean by this?

>>14686786
If we're talking about the DNC debate last night I thought it was

Klobuchar = Steyer > Bernie > Warren > Yang > Buttigieg >>> Biden

Klobuchar and Steyer did pretty well in spite of their lack of relevance and mostly gave decent answers. Bernie did decent but mostly repeated the same shit he usually says. Warren was kind of forgettable, similar to Bernie in that she mostly said the same shit she usually does but in a less interesting way. Yang, as usual, was barely given much speaking time. Buttigieg did okay in the beginning (especially when asked about Soleimani) but got bullied relentlessly by everyone when they started talking about race and funding from billionaires. Biden rambled far too much and sounded incoherent half the time, he also got cornered by Steyer over Dick Harpootlian.

Yeah I'm voting Trump

>>14686786
Warren is the worst because she is mentally ill and her personal character is very poor, being very dishonest. I never seen someone avoid questions like she does. She's worse than Hillary Clinton was in 2016. Warren reminds of this guy I once had as a boss and I tried to ask simple questions (when will this be, or what will this entail), and he would dodge the question or answer something else entirely. I would rather any other candidate win than warren.

>>14686786
They all suck except Bernie. And even Bernie is only decent.
>>14686828
You're a moron.

>>14686786
Warren’s a lot better than Yang

>>14686807
That's exactly why she's there and exactly what they want you to think
Seems strange that the DNC is so terrified of one but not the other if they're so similar, no?

>>14686701
Where did he say that?

>>14686856
Lol

>>14686701
He's right, what the fuck chinky mutt? I thought all americans were retarded.

>>14686855
>They all suck except Bernie. And even Bernie is only decent.
Yeah the cutoff for who I like falls immediately after Yang on that ranking

>>14686756
Source? Video clip?

>>14686771
Yep. Nailed it. And he is 100 percent right. That doesn't mean his solution is, but there is a lot more to the issue than "HURR WHY PROFITS GO UP BUT WAGES NO GO UP" but nobody is gonna talk about it because that means acknowledging that life is gonna change

>>14686903
>>14686771

Bernie is going to win the nomination

Pete can't get minority votes
Klobuchar, Steyer, and Yang are irrelevant
Warren lost a lot of support over her healthcare plans
Bloomberg is a meme candidate
Only Biden really stands in the way and he is tanking after Iowa.

>>14686771
Which is wrong it is more prevalent than ever. He even mentioned we need "human" capitalism right after lol.

>>14686828
Based

>>14686916
It's going to boil down to Bernie vs Bloomberg. Obama is going to endorse bloomberg after Biden loses NH and SC.

>>14686786
I agree with this actually

>>14686881
He didn't. Don't listen to OP

>>14686946
He literally did. I was shitting on the the toilet with the tv on when he said this and I was cringing hard.

>>14686701
He's a Politician.

>>14686917
>Which is wrong it is more prevalent than ever.
In a way, yes, but absolutely not within the context of mainstream US politics and the public reaction to the democratic socialist label, which is what the question was about
No one on that stage is going to end capitalism
Democratic socialism as it is discussed in the USA is categorically not socialism, it is an articulation of certain historically leftist values completely within the established structure of modern liberal-capitalist government
Bernie will not, can not, and has never claimed to want to do otherwise
Barring complete revolution which we are a long ways off from if it's even possible, the absolute best we can hope for are continual adjustments to the system we inhabit now that improve the quality of life of working people. Within that context Yang was completely right

>>14686909
Okay, that's not a video clip.

>>14686916
Don't worry, Hillary will come out of nowhere and btfo Bernie.

>every single candidate in both major parties is a contemptible louse
>ever since the 60s the public sector has been restructuring itself over and over as some weird system of corporate governance
>government is a chaotic mess of people cutting each other's throats to meet bottom lines
>all we have to do to fix this is invest in skilled public administrators, party is completely irrelevant
>this will never happen because every single american is a crypto-kike greedily hunched over their steadily decreasing money pile inside a sinking ship
>all my boomer co-workers keep unironically keep saying "WE NEED TO RUN AMERICA AS A BUSINESS"
>feel like i live in a surreal burgerpunk parody of real life where citizens are viewed as customers instead of constituents and war doctrine is approached like video games where progress is based off how many brown people you can kill
>we're doomed to repeat this shit over and over again until the country collapses and jesus comes down from heaven and kills us all with a sword

>>14686916
>Actual leftist winning the nomination
yeah no

>>14686701
>When Yang was 12 years old, he scored a 1220 out of 1600 on the SAT, qualifying him to attend the Center for Talented Youth—a summer program for gifted kids run by Johns Hopkins University—which he attended for the next five summers.

>>14687327
I went there

>>14687286
It's happening in front of our eyes right now
No one gives a shit about left-right anymore, he's going to win because he's the only one who feels even slightly honest

>>14687260
I’m not even an absurdist, but I have to admit that the world has a fantastic sense of humor.

>>14686828
This, but with needlessly large amounts of theory and reasoning behind my choice to vote for Trump for a-political reasons.

>>14687260
(((progress))) is based on how many brown people you can import

How did Warren even make it this far while constantly looking and talking like a total bitch? Has no one told her how unpleasant she is to listen to?

Mayor Pete: a Limerick

This rat does not eat Cheese;
He chomps on S-D-Es!
Designed a phony app
To disappear in a snap
A win that was Bernie's!

>>14687639
>people want honesty
Spoken like a true child

>>14688159
People want people who feel honest, that’s what I said and I’ll stick by it
That’s why Trump worked, to his supporters he just felt like one of their own telling it like it is and taking shit from no one

>>14688059
wow, what an intelligent and well thought out contribution, /pol/. really glad you showed up!

you're welcome

>>14686879
because one is polling at literally fucking .1% and the other is like a 2 to 5 favorite?

>>14686786
Klobuchar is def best centrist

>>14687327
I knew someone who did this. Became a total stoner and I think he totally burned out.
Its weird because he was way smarter than me too

>>14687260
I'm not sure is a Weberian bureaucracy is that desirable either.

None of you faggots have read Marx.

>"when people were talking about these economic models (capitalism and socialism) they did not foresee technology getting stronger, capable of doing the work of a thousand humans in the blink of an eye" - andrew yang last night

>"An organised system of machines, to which motion is communicated by the transmitting mechanism from a central automaton, is the most developed form of production by machinery. Here we have, in the place of the isolated machine, a mechanical monster whose body fills whole factories, and whose demon power, at first veiled under the slow and measured motions of his giant limbs, at length breaks out into the fast and furious whirl of his countless working organs." - Marx, Capital Volume 1 Chapter 15

>>14688547
You were probably more disciplined than him.

>>14689065
The entire thread is predicted on the fact that Marx did indeed consider technology. It really didn't need to be said.

>>14686771
>to account for a labor market that will be unrecognizable in the next few decades
You mean one where 80% of people are unemployed? Why shouldn't we talk about how capitalism is about to 80% of people economically unproductive?

my mom says yang is smarter than the other dems so i'll vote for him

>>14686701
All capitalists are retarded

>>14686751
Technology wasn’t invented after Marx. And the facts of advanced technology are naturally being considered by Marxists of today, like Harvey. Self driving cars don’t nullify Marxian economics

>>14689327
Yer mom likes Sanders for president. Don’t lie

>>14689174
That’s exactly what I meant lol
We’re not going to change our trajectory now without people dying so we might as well start bracing for devastating automation which is Yang’s whole schtick

>>14686701
Probably not, he's just a liar and knows he can get away with it.

>>14688036
Please explain

>>14689390
when are you going to let me eat your ass

>>14689058
Say that to my face and not online.

>>14686786
Buttigieg is my man go fuck yourself

>>14689580
You know HRC alumn are on his staff and helped rig Iowa, right?

>>14686786
for me, it's Hitler

>>14689430
Trump probably has a larger bulge than any of his potential opponents (save Klobuchar).

>>14689580
why are you voting for a billionaire pandering idiotic rodent

>>14686786
Bernie's wealth transfers will be eternally blocked by the whole political system and the only thing he will get done is opening the border with executive orders and maybe banning bayonets on rifles.

>>14687260
It's so absurd, it's almost comfy

>>14689390
She really overplayed her hand

>>14686701
Marxism is a 19th century ideology centred around 19th century labour

>>14687260
>burgerpunk

>>14686701

>>14686701
Marx literally did fail to consider technology. Remember when he said unironically that the workers would rise up first in the more developed nation because as technology increased the output of the workers, so too would increase their alienation?

Remember when the literal EXACT opposite of that happened? Where now the most developed nations are the absolute furthest away from anything that would be even remotely recognizable as a socialist revolution to Marx? Do you remember when the entirety of Ricardian economics was made a mockery of in the 1960s?

Do you remember when the shittiest, poorest country in Europe had a LARP revolution while Germany and Britain didn't? The exact opposite of what Marx predicted?

He literally failed to consider technology. FAILED is the operative word. He may have tried to consider it, but just as he was on everything else, Marx was dead fucking wrong as to its ultimate effects.

>>14687260
Yeah we just need bigger and better bureaucracy. That will fix everything. Then at last I can stop thinking.

How come there's no proud reactionary/regressive candidate?

I'd love to vote for someone who says "Yeah, our end goal is to go back to the good old stone age, but our short term aim is to reach the 50s within the next 20 years. Then we slowly ban more and more technology and save the whole world"

How based would that be? Sadly normies unironically ruin everything

>>14690172
Technology ultimately serves the Right's interests. Social corruption and Jews serve the Left. As we have seen, genuine Capitalist forces have never once failed to benefit from technological processes. Reactionaries are people who (rightly) believe that social "progress" is evil, but enjoy the benefits of machineguns, radio, and most recently the internet.

Actual tech REGRESSION is limited almost entirely to very fringe environmentalist ideologies and all six Anarcho-Primitivists who actually seriously believe their nonsense.

>>14690172
you should check out bernie sanders

>>14687260
>talk to girl who interned in a bunch of startups in silicon valley
>tells me that it's normal for employees in california to give up benefits and job stability, if they can have beanbag chairs and "fun workplaces" in exchange
>employees don't mind being on the clock 24/7, taking their work home with them, as long as they get a keurig that tugs their dick while it makes their coffee
>they all think that "artificial intelligence" and "automation" = "my flamin' hot cheetos will be delivered by Wall-E!"
>everyone supports UBI
>everyone thinks that socialism = everyone has the latest iphone, meanwhile homeless niggers turn LA into a gypsy tent city within 5 years

I want something new already

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oFyI5vlkec

>>14690193
take the tedpill
>>14690199
bait? pretty sure bernie wants progress

>>14690213
>bait? pretty sure bernie wants progress
he's the best chance we've got, unfortunately. he wants outdated socialism from the last century, and has the best chance of collapsing the world economy.
plus he supports that green new deal stuff. he might ban airplanes and guns at least.

>>14690234
the only use bernie has is that he'd probably genuinely try to fuck over a bunch of embedded technocrats/plutocrats in the government, and stir up the nest in the process

>he might ban airplanes and guns at least.
faggot neoliberal, kill yourself

>>14690099
>Remember when he said unironically that the workers would rise up first in the more developed nation because as technology increased the output of the workers, so too would increase their alienation?
Wrong. Before he died, he was writing on possibility of revolution in Russia. Lenin expanded on that both in practice and theory with his work on imperialism.

The missing factor there isn't "thermodynamic" factor of technology, but "kinetic" factor of geopolitics.

>>14689505
Woodrow Wilson understood that real politics is about substantive/value rationality not formal/instrumental rationality. Having a bureaucratic public administration is the latter form of rationality and is, like, mega gay-ass and not super cool at all. each little numpty bureaucrat with a bachelor degree in applied cuckoldry (management/econ double major) preens their own feathers while never being able to step past the dotted line that is their departmental enclosure; efficient cogs in a machine that is its own closed system of managers managing managers finding the most efficient means to increase efficiency. but anon, that ain't livin! you may think a summer bloom lies ahead of us, but it is actually a polar night of icy darkness. say no to bureaus my lover.

>>14690099
this...THIS

Nobody at the time could've envisioned technology coming as far as it did now in such little timespan. Doesn't mean he wasn't wrong, it's just that it would be hard not to.

>>14686701
>>Marx failed to consider technology
No?
/thread

>>14690441
Explain why the biggest marxist erudites all came to this conclusion then. Ellul literally taught marxism for his entire life, yet adopted an anti-tech (christian anarchist) stance. Camatte was leading the italian internationalist party etc...

>>14690473
Based Camatte poster.

>>14688547
He simply knew too much and couldn't handle it.

>>14690099
Are you fucking illiterate?
>>14689065

>>14690172

The people who hold onto existing technology would then have an advantage. It would make more sense to make new technology from an energy source less toxic than electricity

>>14690172
>ban more and more technology
>If we ban shit, it goes away
Based banner

>>14686701
he never said that

>>14689993
Read his fragment on machines, tard.

>>14689990
She’s anti-war. Of course polls aren’t going to reflect accurately how well she was received.
Or are you the Hillary voter again?

>>14689971
Not even on the agenda, jackass. The presidency isn’t even the most important step. Of course congress will stymie anything soc-dem

>>14690473
"Simultaneously, however, technological innovations would replace people with machinery, and the organic composition of capital would decrease. Assuming only labor can produce new additional value, this greater physical output would embody a gradually decreasing value and surplus value, relative to the value of production capital invested. In response, the average rate of industrial profit would therefore tend to decline in the longer term. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tendency_of_the_rate_of_profit_to_fall#Marx

>>14689505
>Woodrow Wilson is considered the father of American Public Administration due to his essay titled "The Study of Administration" in which he advocated for restructuring government into a business-like bureaucracy free from political association
How deep does this go? I'm getting scared, bros.

>>14691257
The presidency has always serves the business class, crossing them at their own peril

>>14687639
>he's going to win because he's the only one who feels even slightly honest
Bernie is a weird sleezebag with an extremely inconsistent political career. You look at his history of supported policy and it's really weird, I really don't think Americans know what their getting themselves into with this guy. He's supported open-carry firearms on public transportation, medieval immigration policies, dumping toxic waste in Texas latino communities, endorsed protectionism, refused to extend tax relief to the working class, etc. Really no idea what this guy's modus operandi is.