/lit/ - Literature

I was also asked to make a poll concerning the translations you would be reading:

https://forms.gle/78pTkW75FeBBKZC47

>To make it interesting, try to understand the Old Testament as if the Messiah is yet to come
be honest, are you doing this becuse of the corona?

>>14609041
> Why did God create Adam first?
Because God resembles a man and not a woman.

> Why was it Eve who first sinned?
No particular reason.

> Do you interpret the primeval story literally, or metaphorically?
Literally.

> What are some metaphorical interpretations of the flood?
I think the flood was a literal flood.

> What is the purpose of God creating the universe over seven days? What purpose does it serve?
I don't think there was a purpose, but I do think he rested on the Sabbath as an example for humanity and not because he actually needed to rest.

Ok I know some of you understand Hebrew, so o have heard that Adam was no nesseseary a man but it was left ambiguous what his gender he or even of he had gender? Is there any true that the translation is worn when it says man

Should probably look into how text is traditionally formatted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parashah

So the first paragraph of Genesis might be from 1:1–5.

One translation which appears to format the text in this manner while still indicating the popular verse and chapter division is the Literal English Version though I wouldn't necessarily vouch for the overall efficacy of the translation but it's still interesting to look at. It's also based on the World English Bible.

https://www.levbible.org/

>>14609041
>Jordan B. Peterson Bible Lectures

>>14609210
>male and female created he them
Might just be interpreted as a general term for mankind.

>>14609257
Yeah all this modern skepticist critique by scholars and speculation by book peddlers can come off as corny and dubious at times. Following classic commentaries could suffice.

>>14609041
The link for the Robert Alter translation was deleted. You should consider the advice I suggested on the last thread.

Here's a link to DSS translations. Should probably make note of BibleHub's text analysis as well.
http://dssenglishbible.com

>>14609187


> > Do you interpret the primeval story literally, or metaphorically?
>Literally.

How? The story is clearly influenced by other religions primeval story, i.e. the enuma elish.

>>14609471
I'll just follow Justin Martyr's lead, and assume Enuma Elish is a demonic imitation of Genesis.

>>14609471
Why assume G-d revealed it only once and only to one people?

>>14609257
The other is that as of the moment it appears that it's been rendered with subtitle captions into dozens of languages.

>>14609471
Or the other way around. Other stories are influenced by it.

>>14609257
Do as you want, I'll be honest and say I haven't watched them myself. However, some people find him interesting so I figured I'd add them to the sticky.

>>14609210
The old testament is actually filled with play on words. Such as Noah backwards is Hebrew for "favor". Adam is Hebrew for earthling. One can thus interpret it as being a story about all "earthlings", or mankind, not just two human beings.

>>14609503

Why? Just because the Enuma Elish already existed doesn't mean the story told in the Old Testament is directly wrong. What I believe is that the monotheistic religion of the Jews already was established and made when these stories where written. To teach the religion in a pedagogical way, they borrowed stories from the near east, and altereted them to fit their view.

One of the ways the primeval story really sticks out compared to other stories alike it, is that it is non-mythological, it does not contain a story about how God was created. This was of course to stick out compared to all the other religions. Gods in polytheistics religions aren't all-mighty like Jahve. In the Odyssey for example, Odysseus catches a god with the help of a witch, to help him home. This is not the case for judaism, where you can't trick God. Possibly a metaphor for saying that there are certain things in life you just have to take, there is no way around what God decides for you.

>>14609187
Do you believe it was a global flood or a local flood? We know that a global flood didn't occur at that time

>>14609515
Watch the Yale Lectures on the Hebrew Bible. Academia is actually quite certain on who is influecing who, and it does not stop the stories from being valuable religious texts, even for Jews and Christians.

>>14609515
The epic of Gilgamesh predates the OT significantly

>>14609564
>>14609568
I don't subscribe to the scientisum cool aid.

>>14609731
>I don't subscribe to the scientisum cool aid.

>>14609568
Just because our existing copies of EOG are older than our existing copies of TOT doesn't mean one is older than the other. I have a copy of the Illiad published in the 90s but that doesn't mean the story of Illiad is thirty years old.

>>14609756
Yeah well it seems pretty partialized to be giving too much weight to an opposing theory as well. The other factor is that the Giglamesh is attested in writing that predates earliest plausible writing for the Hebrew language as well. So all that would be left to argue would be for an oral form of the story predating the written Old Babylonian accounts, which seems more farfetched.

>>14609731
>>14609756

>>14609841
>So all that would be left to argue would be for an oral form of the story predating the written Old Babylonian accounts, which seems more farfetched.
Oral tradition is more sacred and thus belongs in an earlier phase of the current cosmic cycle and thus predates all written scripture as shown by René Guénon in his works.

>>14609860
>Snapchat
>I Frickin' Love Science!!!

>>14609863
Except the text of the Torah would also appear to have gone through phases of revision and compilation.

> Why did God create Adam first?
By the time the OT was written, patriarchy was in full effect and needed to be enforce. There was not a literal garden but the story is symbolic for man developing consciousness.
> Why was it Eve who first sinned?
Likely an enforcement of patriarchy but it is likely that women were the people to develop language (much more useful for gathering spots than hunting) which gave us the path to self reflection/conscious awareness which was the original sin - the moment human became able to sin.
> Do you interpret the primeval story literally, or metaphorically?
Metaphorically obviously.
> What are some metaphorical interpretations of the flood?
There’s lots of evidence for a literal great flood. People applied meaning to it after.
> What is the purpose of God creating the universe over seven days? What purpose does it serve?
A misrepresentation. If someone had a vision of the creation of the universe, it obviously couldn’t be real-time and would be condensed. The order of events is in agreement with modern science.

>>14609041
Might as well include the last several verses of chapter 11 within the scope of this thread's discussion and resume at chapter 12 with Parashat Lekh-Lekha.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo-YL-lv3RY&list=PLh9mgdi4rNeyuvTEbD-Ei0JdMUujXfyWi

>>14610177
Yup, been watching these while reading. Really great stuff, absolute eye-opening.

>>14610015

Interesting takes. However, don't you believe humans could sin without language as well? Rape, theft, and murder doesn't need language. Perhaps they became sin because of language, as with language one could set rules and organize?

>>14610257
Not him, but following his ideas I'd consider humans pre-language to be more like animals, they cannot sin because they have no real conscience and are merely following the laws of nature
Knowledge of Good and Evil allow men to sin because we have broken out of nature, we can grapple with ethics and understand that there are times in which we must restrict our natural impulses to adhere to ethical codes

>>14610299
This would also mean that before language/knowledge there were no righteous actions either, merely humans living through instinct

>>14610299
>>14610309
Makes sense, interesting interpretation.

I am personally enjoying this thread. Are those of you who have participated so far interested in continueing? (Im OP)

I got a question.

What do you guys think the purpose of sin is at this point?

Hell isn't really a thing yet, and neither is forgiveness of sin. Does sin just mean to not be in Gods favor any more, in a sense, the opposite of blessed?

Also, we haven't discussed that much about Cain and Able yet. What do you guys take out of that story?

I know I am basically asking to be spoonfed but does anyone have a good time map of events/books in OT from Genesis to NT in chronological order?

*ahem*
god isn't real

Bump

>>14610329
Yeah I'm down, maybe we should make this a weekly thing, have a section assigned for each week and then a discussion thread on Sundays

>>14610329
I'm interested. Even if it partially moves into the tranny hive.

>>14610329
I haven't posted yet, but I wasn't ready for the general to be made this quickly. I was baptized but wasn't of faith until recently and I haven't read the OT in months outside of the Psalms for prayerful readings. I've mostly been studying and reading the NT these last few months.
Basically this is a bump and I'll be back later for an actual ontopic post after I revisit Genesis.

I started chapter 4, I have to ask, god is supposed to be omniscient right? So why does he bother asking where Abel is, when he comes up with the answer anyway? I'm reading it as a literary text, and I'm not sure how to think about god as a character. Omniscient, but only when he bothers to be?

>>14609868
>>14609860
Low effort memes like that do not belong here. Especially if you use them as reaction images.

>>14612352
He wanted Cain to respond to his question, whether or not God already knew the answer is unimportant.

>>14609041
>Why did God create Adam first?
Excitement
>Why was it Eve who first sinned?
Self Doubt, she saw beyond God's perfect world, women are indecisive and suffer from alot of self doubt
>Do you interpret the primeval story literally, or metaphorically?
It is pointless to interpret it metaphorically only a brainlet would do it
>What are some metaphorical interpretations of the flood?
Entropy
>What is the purpose of God creating the universe over seven days?
Deadlines
>What purpose does it serve?
Harvesting

>> Why was it Eve who first sinned?
Some of the answers are given by St. Irenaeus and his presentation of Christ as the new Adam and Mary as the new Eve.
>"the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith."
From the virgin Eve's disobedience came death for man and from the virgin Mary came life through Christ.

Anyone have experience with the Ellicott or Matthew Henry commentaries? Might wanna also consider Philon's works.
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book1.html
Required reading

>over 7 days
Creation happened simultaneously, because God is external to time. The days proposed must be of some numerological significance

>>14609210
Its Platonic. He created the Form of Man and then Adam as the instantiation of the Form

>>14613861
The whole story was written to justify the Sabbath.

>>14609563
Global. Pretty much every civilization has the story of
>there was a flood
>a man was warned beforehand and built a ship and survived
Not just the Sumerians and the Israelites. Greeks have it, Native Americans have it, etc

>>14612731
I've heard about Philon. Interesting stuff, but do you know if his works are accessible for all? Or do I have to be a full on rabbi to understand every other sentence?

I take the primeval story as metaphor, maybe not entirely, but I see Adam and Eve and certainly Cain and Abel as metaphor. I've been sitting on this idea that Cain and Abel are to be seen as agricultural vs pastoralism and will be using that as a basis for my thoughts. I'll post a more informed and thought out post that might spark more discussion later today.

~I would like to write a beautiful prayer but I have nothing to do it from~

>>14615381
>I've been sitting on this idea that Cain and Abel are to be seen as agricultural vs pastoralism and will be using that as a basis for my thoughts.
Then you might enjoy what the patron saint of /lit/ has to say on Cain and Abel.

The old testament was written based on what many pagan religions were basing themselves on. Watch "Zeitgeist: The Movie" and go from there, wanderer.

>>14615458
Not sure if bait , just willingly ignorant or dumb.

>>14615381
>Cain and Abel are to be seen as agricultural vs pastoralism
definitely plausible
also, I think it's important to note in the Cain and Abel story that these are literally the first children of humanity and one ends up killing the other
the sinful failures of men is a huge recurring theme in OT, and this story really sets the stage for it (though Adam and Eve eating the fruit did too)

>>14615381
>Cain and Abel are to be seen as agricultural vs pastoralism and will be using that as a basis for my thoughts.
I consider it to be both literal and metaphorical. If you look at Cain's descendents names, he basically builds a city and based on his lack of being able to produce anything of his own (his curse from God) he most likely built the city to steal from others. Again the names hint at his line being rulers of the city.
It's civilization and its wickedness vs a more natural state? I don't know, I've gotta study it more

>>14614724
It does seem plausible that rabbinical writings could help give a better understanding of his works but they do technically precede the written compilation of those traditions.

>tfw you find out the original yahwistic proto-monotheistic "jews" were probably wildmen from the south of judah
>tfw you find out judah probably never controlled the northern kingdom

What the FUCK, so what actually happened in the historical books of the OT? What was the real history?

>>14609041
Question! If Adam and Eve had followed God's instructions, they would have lived forever and bred, eventually rendering the earth overcrowded. What would have happened then? Would there have been a new earth?

The old testament condradicts too much of true christianity (the teachings of christ in the new testament....especially the sermon on the mount).
it should be an appendix in the back of the bible

>>14616789
They wouldnt have bred. They needed to fall before they could reproduce.

Some DSS fragments thought to be of the Herodian era appear to follow the wording in Septuagint in the first chapter.

>4Q8 Genesis h1
[9] [And God] said, [Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together unto one] COLLECTION, [and let the dry land appear: and it was so.]

>4Q10 Genesis k
[9] [....] and the dry land appeared.

>Septuagint
Καὶ εἶπεν ὁ Θεὸς, συναχθήτω τὸ ὕδωρ τὸ ὑποκάτω τοῦ οὐρανοῦ εἰς συναγωγὴν μίαν, καὶ ὀφθήτω ἡ ξηρά· καὶ ἐγένετο οὕτως· καὶ συνήχθη τὸ ὕδωρ τὸ ὑποκάτω τοῦ οὐρανοῦ εἰς τὰς συναγωγὰς αὐτῶν, καὶ ὤφθη ἡ ξηρά.

[14] And God [said,] Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide [the day] from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and FOR years:

>Septuagint
Καὶ εἶπεν ὁ Θεὸς, γενηθήτωσαν φωστῆρες ἐν τῷ στερεώματι τοῦ οὐρανοῦ εἰς φαῦσιν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τοῦ διαχωρίζειν ἀνὰ μέσον τῆς ἡμέρας καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τῆς νυκτός· καὶ ἔστωσαν εἰς σημεῖα, καὶ εἰς καιροὺς, καὶ εἰς ἡμέρας, καὶ εἰς ἐνιαυτούς·

http://dssenglishbible.com/scroll4Q8.htm
http://dssenglishbible.com/scroll4Q10.htm

>>14615381
>I'll post a more informed and thought out post that might spark more discussion later today.
Just reminding you. I find interest in what you're saying but don't completely see your point.

>>14615451
what is this from?

>>14616637

> >tfw you find out the original yahwistic proto-monotheistic "jews" were probably wildmen from the south of judah
> >tfw you find out judah probably never controlled the northern kingdom

sources? not asking as a dick, genuinely curious.

>>14616900
What? God told humans to reproduce before the sin of Adam. Gen. 1:28

>>14616789
Well you can definitely fantasize over questions like these, but as someone who view the story as metaphors rather than literal happenings, it's sort of meaningless. The whole point of the story to begin with is to explain how sin came to being, and how God wants us to act.

>>14616898
Shouldn't you at least have a fair bit of understanding around Jewish theology to claim you understand Christianity? Even though many theological aspects changes with the NT, there is still just one God, there is sin, there is Gods blessing, etc.

What study Bibles can you guys recommend? The only one I've used personally is the Jewish Study Bible.

>Why did God create Adam first?
As a one of a kind unique creation, to be greater than the angels, hence why Lucifer rebelled.
>Why was it Eve who first sinned?
She was created from Adam, one layer removed from God and thus more susceptible. She just thought she wouldn't die from it so why not. The snake wouldn't have been able to trick Adam directly, he only ate it because God have him Eve and so he trusted her.
>Do you interpret the primeval story literally, or metaphorically?
It's impossible to corroborate so I take both perspectives in mind to draw conclusions that resonate with me
>What are some metaphorical interpretations of the flood?
The flood explains why we are "on our own" for now, God has stayed his hand so we can obtain knowledge and grace in a truer fashion
>What is the purpose of God creating the universe over seven days? What purpose does it serve?
Not sure

>>14618021
I never thought about Eve being one layer away from God as the reason for her being able to be tricked. In a sense, it can be metaphoric for how non-godly people can drag people of God down without them being aware of it.

>>14610352
Sin is just disobedience of God. Adam had one command, he presumably could have done almost anything and because he had no directive otherwise wouldn't have sinned. Instead he does the one thing God tells him not to do.

>>14618163
:) I'm happy my words meant something for you, its all a matter of interpretation

I want to read some bible verse
Give some recommendations
And
I will give you a vocaroo

>>14618512
Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 KJV
>To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
>A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
>A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
>A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
>A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
>A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
>A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
>A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

>>14618512
>As the deer pants for streams of water, so my soul pants for you, my God.
>My soul thirsts for God, for the living God. When can I go and meet with God?
>My tears have been my food day and night, while people say to me all day long, “Where is your God?”
>These things I remember as I pour out my soul: how I used to go to the house of God under the protection of the Mighty One with shouts of joy and praise among the festive throng.
>Why, my soul, are you downcast? Why so disturbed within me? Put your hope in God, for I will yet praise him, my Savior and my God.
>Deep calls to deep in the roar of your waterfalls; all your waves and breakers have swept over me.
>By day the Lord directs his love, at night his song is with me— a prayer to the God of my life.
>I say to God my Rock, “Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?”
>My bones suffer mortal agony as my foes taunt me, saying to me all day long, “Where is your God?”
>Why, my soul, are you downcast? Why so disturbed within me? Put your hope in God, for I will yet praise him, my Savior and my God.

>>14618548
https://vocaroo.com/kYkKcmXaAxq

>>14618911
https://vocaroo.com/ltdpu8GtQ2S

It is weird listing to my voice in normal speed

>>14617382
I haven't forgotten. I still haven't done a (re)reading and I want to pull from direct lines; I've just been mad busy these last 2 days and assumed the general wasn't going to be made until later in the week.
I'm watching the thread, taking notes, and committed to not letting the thread die so let's keep it going. I'm sorry that I'm not adding anything of more substance to the discussion, but I've been stressed thin and busy.

~Please give me the necessary grace, oh Lord, and please don’t let it be as hard to get as Kafka made it~

Parts of Genesis 1 read in biblical Hebrew.
https://youtu.be/38GCIWRZSVg
https://youtu.be/xsX3er5TI24

So boys, what's the reading goal for next sunday?
The life of Abraham?

>>14609041
What do y'all think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZY2eeozdo8

Can I get the first threads? I'm sorry if I am bothering anyway. Also, will we study the Trinity and other concepts? Like purgatory and etc...

>>14609187
>Literally
This faggot thinks God is real

>why did God cr8 adam first?
To mirror His image
>why eve who sinned?
Attention whoring
>metphorical / literal?
Metaphoral
>metaphorical inteprtation of the flood?
Flood was literal
>what is the purpose of 7 days creation?
Completeness/wholeness

>>14616127
Gen.4:12 tells us that Cain is cured to be a nomad. How could he still build cities?

>>14618512
>Ephesians 2:8-18 (DRA)
For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;
Not of works, that no man may glory.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.
For which cause be mindful that you, being heretofore Gentiles in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called circumcision in the flesh, made by hands;
That you were at that time without Christ, being aliens from the conversation of Israel, and strangers to the testament, having no hope of the promise, and without God in this world.
But now in Christ Jesus, you, who some time were afar off, are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and breaking down the middle wall of partition, the enmities in his flesh:
Making void the law of commandments contained in decrees; that he might make the two in himself into one new man, making peace;
And might reconcile both to God in one body by the cross, killing the enmities in himself.
And coming, he preached peace to you that were afar off, and peace to them that were nigh.
For by him we have access both in one Spirit to the Father.

>>14619746
No.
Raw bible study is where this at and those enlightened concepts such as that will not be included

>>14616789
Why should they live forever?
Genesis 3:22b
>He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.

Death was part of the creation

Why do people think Gen.2:18 indicates that woman are inferior to men?

>>14619872
No, death came with Sin
>>14617435
It's aesthetically interesting

>>14619904
thats bullshit.
God himself said the should not become immortal, so they needed to be mortal before.
Or do you want to accuse God of lying?

>>14610352
Forgiveness of sin is a thing. To sin means to miss the mark, for us to fall short of the glory of God, that entails disappointing God and no longer being in His favor. But through Christ we may always be favored by the Father, so long as we trust in Him, repent, and obey His commandments.

>>14610257
Consider this, like >>14610299 said about the laws of nature, rape only happens in animals that have a higher brain patterns. If we were like animals then sex wasn't for pleasure and being a one pump chump minute men was evolutionarily advantageous because doing the act of intercourse you were greatly exposed to an attack. With higher brain patterns and language to we assign words to everything physical but also emotions and ideas. The idea of love has greatly change and varies from culture to culture. Only by language do we set a base set of rules for us to engage with. This is why the Tower of Babel is key.

>>14619746
Not a bother at all. This is actually the first official thread, the only previous is a discussion on whether or not there was enough interest to sustain a general.
>>/lit/thread/S14599017
There's some discussion about the Trinity and other concepts in the archived thread I linked, but as another Anon said, these generals will be dedicated to the study of raw text from scripture.

>>14619902
Why might people think that based on that passage? No good reason I can determine.

>>14610352
Sin before the banishment means to want to be God himself or you can say to coup against Him.
That's what i learn from the other bible study

>>14619902
>God create man to help God govern His creation
>God create women to help men not to be alone
It explains itself

Question in regards to babel. So was Abraham alive when babel was going on? It seems abarahams lineage shows his ancestors to be the founders of Ur. But Abraham's dad up and leaves after one of his sons dies. Another one stays in ur but Abraham goes with him. Up till then other sons aren't mentioned in Abraham's line so why is it mentioned then, why is this death listed? Why does his dad leave to go to Caanan but then stop before getting there? Is this related to babel and I'm missing something? If so why is it an earlier ancestor of Abraham who has the name referring to lands being divided in his time?

>>14619850
Vagabond not a monad. And it literally says he built a city and named it after his son. The land they go to basically means out cast, or vagabond. He was forced to flee where those who followed God were

>>14619702
OP here, the next goal is Abraham yes. However, I will just make it once this thread is done, not necesarrily sunday

>>14617388
Guenon's The Reign of Quantity and the Signs of the Times. It's not about the OT or Christianity in general, he just mentions it sometimes. If you want more stuff about Christian symbolism from him then look into this chart.

>>14616789
There is no reason why the garden of Eden is limited like earth. Think of heaven is full because billions of people have died ? No.

>>14617471
I've used two different Oxford ones that I liked
First was Oxford REB Study Bible with Apocrypha
Second is New Oxford Annotated Bible in original RSV with the expanded Apocrypha (pic related)

>>14620881
No, the 'garden of Eden' is a literal garden. They even give a specific location in Genesis. (Somewhere in northern Iraq it looks like.)

Why did God pick Abraham to be his paragon and agent? Abraham displays no particular qualities besides a complete faith in and fear of God, as when he goes to kill his son. He wasn't the first to have these traits, was he?

So does adam means ruddy as some poltards love to claim or reddish like clay?

>That’s what life is. The fundamental sentiment of man is envy. Especially people who are the closest to you. You see, the whole history of humanity is really in the Bible, in the fall from Paradise and then the two brothers, Cain and Abel. It’s all there.
Cioran

>>14621899
Bevan is litteral too does not mean is limited by space.

>>14622270
Heaven*

>>14619497
No worry brother, take your time. I'll wait in excitement.

>>14621889
What is the difference between the two? Which one would you recommend?

>>14620205
> This is why the Tower of Babel is key.

Elaborate. I don't see why the Tower of Babel had anything to do with what you said. They had language before Babel, didn't they, they just spoke different ones after, right?

>>14620539
bumping this for someone more knowledgable to answer.

In the Old Testament does God not care about Gentiles and only care about the Jews? Since Gentiles are not “the chosen”, do they go to hell?

Also why does God love Jacob and David so much when they seem like very flawed people?

>>14609041
> Why did God create Adam first?
Because man is made in God's image, the female is just a companion for man, or the image of an image.
> Why was it Eve who first sinned?
Perhaps because women are more in tune with the material world, being one step further removed from the image of God. The snake is nature/instinct, and the woman listens to it. Man is likely to make the same mistakes due to his love of woman. Woman wanted to be wise, to know the difference between good and evil, and to be like 'gods' - woman is less likely to accept her place, as man does. She wants more, when it's forbidden for a good reason. Woman induces man to be ambitious, and attempt to rise above his place.
> Do you interpret the primeval story literally, or metaphorically?
It's true, that's all that matters.
> What are some metaphorical interpretations of the flood?
I don't understand the question. Why did God do it? Because people were sinful, and it was better to start over -- and to show that He would never do it again on such a scale, and, perhaps, neither should anyone else.
> What is the purpose of God creating the universe over seven days? What purpose does it serve?
Purpose? Maybe as an example, like the other poster said. I don't know.

>>14623201
NOAB in RSV with Expanded Apocrypha includes the Apocrypha used by the Orthodox church, not just Roman Catholic Apocrypha
They both include some useful notes and prefaces to each section, Oxford REB Study Bible has more in this regard though iirc
Both are good, I'd say go with the NOAB if you're interested in getting the most 'complete' bible for study use since it includes the Orthodox stuff
Most Oxford Annotated Bibles are now in NRSV and don't have expanded Apocrypha, so just make sure you get the version I posted a pic of if that's what you want

>>14623403
>Since Gentiles are not “the chosen”, do they go to hell?
There is no hell in the OT, Sheol is where everyone goes after death to rest.
The "chosen people" thing comes from God's covenant with Abraham that designs the fate of his lineage and promises their eventual power over the holy land
>Also why does God love Jacob and David so much when they seem like very flawed people?
They're competent and can continue the line of Abraham/continue the covenant

>>14623649
What is the purpose or benefit to being chosen? Does God care about people who hasn’t chosen?

>>14623649
Why does he care about this line so much? And why does he only have a covenant with one kind of people? What does that mean for the rest of us who are part of neither?

>>14623403
God uses sinners and flawed peoples and David was both but also a great Warrior Poet and a King who unified. He loves us all, sinners or not, God never withdraws his love for the soul is sustained in heaven and hell through that love. God writes straight and even with our crooked lines. Perhaps God should not have to, but he seems more than willing to use us, even in our brokenness. Psalm 37 & 51 are fantastic examples of David's flaws, fears, and love.

>>14620572
Guess I'll repost >>14620539 there then.
Seriously. Land that Abraham and his dad go to has the same name as the son that died. Why did they leave? Abraham's life does overlap with the dude who was alive during babel per Biblical ages. So its possible. I just wonder if they're connected.
I kinda looked up the names and this is what I got
>Terah - means to wander, Abram's dad
>Abram - Exalted father
>Nahor - scorched, snort
>Haran - mountainous/mountaineer
Now, details given
>Haran dies in Ur where Terah's home is and where his family has lived for centuries
>Abram marries Sarai (name means "My Princess") his half sister
>Nahor marries Milcah (meaning Queen, counsel) one of Haran's daughters
>Haran also has another daughter listed named Iscah (meaning She will weave a cover/lookout)
>Terah takes Abram, Sarai, and Haran's son Lot (meaning covering) and heads to Canaan but stops in the land of Haran (south eastern Turkey)
>Terah dies in Haran
So what is the meaning of this and the names? Did Iscah smuggle them out of Ur or something?

>>14609041
>What are some metaphorical interpretations of the flood?
God washing away humanity's sins to make a fresh start, over laps with the idea of Salvation and Baptism. Consider, if we are operating under the idea that man is given free will (hence thou shalt not eat, but they can choose to eat) what would a world that had been changed by fallen angels be like?
The Bible only says the world was filled with violence and man thought only of himself.
Thus, it seems God's goal of having man come to him and accepting him as their Lord would be nigh impossible as the fallen angels pretty much displaced the path man had via whatever wickedness they brought. So God hits the reset button so to speak. He kills humanity's civilizations, but brings through on the other side he who had accepted him, Noah.
The flood is a "rhyme" as a result. You yourself experience the spiritual death from sin. Once you accept God, he is your Lord and you are saved from hell, just as Noah was from the flood. Your sins are washed away, just as man's were. You've got a fresh start with God guiding you, as it was with Noah and his sons
At least, that's one metaphorical possibility. I take it both literally and metaphorically along with everything else in the Bible

>>14609187
>>14610015
>>14612407
>>14618021
>>14619836
>>14623516
Why don't you all give the same answers? Why hasn't God made the truth clear?

>>14626320
>Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it
Do you expect every line of a foundational text covering religion and the history of civilization to be easy to comprehend?

Don't know how many anons here are interested in it, I've been curious as to what the preflood world was like. All's Genesis says is there was violence throughout all the Earth.

I have been looking at the Greek myths and, as with other peoples' there are parallels. Im not really sure how much to take as perhaps being true to the account of Genesis but, heres what I got.
Hesiod divides men into different ages before the flood. Golden age men, Silver, and then Bronze.
Golden being under the rule of Kronos. Men lived with the gods, they did not work to feed themselves and lived to a very old age (shades of Eden and the long lived pre flood people here)
Silver and Bronze under zeus
Silver men were raised by their mothers and only lived around 100 years. Men were constantly at strife with each other and did not warship the gods. They were destroyed by Zeus for this reason
Bronze age we hit the last age before the flood of Deucalion. Men of this age were hardened, and focused on war alone, and incredibly violent.
Now, there is another detail in this preflood world. Lycaon, a king of Arcadia and his children were noted for their impiety (similar to the silver age men). Zeus came down to earth to find out how bad things were (in disguise), Lycaon served Zeus one of his subject's children to eat (or according to some versions one of his own kids). Zeus was revolted proceeded to kill Lycaon and his sons and brought the flood down on the world because of this encounter.

Deucalion at the warning of his father Prometheus builds an ark and survives the flood, exits and then stones are cast behind himself and his wife to form new people.

As I said, I don't know how much to take as relevant, but eating of children would speak to the wickedness of the preflood world, a wickedness that we (hopefully) have not reached yet, at least not to that extent and thus makes me wonder how bad things will get before Jesus returns. Anyway, just thought I'd share. Prehistory and Biblical exegeses are tough

>>14624109
> And why does he only have a covenant with one kind of people?
The OT the is a series of expanding covenants form a family to a lineage, to a people, culminating in the opening of the covenant in the NT. So God has a covenant with everyone now. And even befoe you could still enter it, but it was just harder.
What happens to non believer in the OT we don't really know but it can't be that bad because they have the excuse of ignorance.

How important is the Talmud? Is it as important as the Old Testament?

>>14616991
>[14] And God [said,] Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide [the day] from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and FOR years:
I read that as "[14] And Anu [said,]", lads, wtf.

>>14626320
>>14626345
That's a good question desu
For me, as God looks straight into our heart, even same answer with different ulterior motives might bring divine punishment.
As with the question of archangel michael squad which all of the angel except michael get burned with fire for questioning why God created human.
Maybe because God gives space for us to discuss

>>14623403
>why does love Jacob and David?
I'm not sure what this implies, which part of the Bible showed God loves them more tham the others. If anything, God for whatever reason is against earthly kingdom and the part where Jesus died shows exactly where God's love is directed to.
>then what about the gentiles in the OT?
As sorry as it might be, since they didn't live accordingly there were high chance most of them end up burning in purgatory but not for long l, since they didn't get to know anything.

>>14627934
Surely God would not punish you for not knowing something you couldn’t have known? Also I’m not sure about the purgatory thing, I’ve seen in the Talmud that there are people apparently being boiled in semen and excrement for eternity, so it appears there is a version of hell and eternal punishment

>>14628488
You're either saved or your not. I don't consider there to be a middle ground nor a purgatory. Either you're on Heaven or you're in hell for eternity

>>14628862
Probably a good thing you’re not God then lol

>>14626495
Interesting indeed. Do you know if the Epic of Gilgamesh or Enuma Elish mention anything about earth before the flood? I think the flood is a part of both stories, atleast Gilgamesh.

>>14629594
Yeah, good thing no man is God. but then purgatory isn't mentioned, at least in the version of the Bible ive read

>>14629977
I think Gilgamesh at the least does but Im not sure. I haven't read it yet. Have it along with some other Mesoptamian myths in a single book but haven't gotten to it

>>14613852
>of odd numbers the first is the number three, and of even numbers the first is two, and the two numbers multiplied together make six
1 is not an odd number i guess

>>14630330
1 was special in pythagorean mathematics. i dont remember why

>>14630503
He uses 1 an an odd number when he says 1,3,5 = 2,4,6 when ranting about 6 being a perfect number. But all of a sudden its not odd when he wants to make a different point

>>14630534
Post screenshots

>>14625341
Lead me to water, Lord, I sure am thirsty

>>14631259
I even give you meme arrows

Dont let it die

>>14633705
At this rate it'll take us years to get through the whole of the Hebrew Bible. It's like we're going at the pace of a triennial Torah reading cycle.

>>14633763
Yeah but is it a problem though?

>>14633823
Idunno you all and op's choice I guess. Might go faster for certain parts and slower for others.

>>14633877
Yeah, I am OP. I'll just make a thread per part, and make a new one when the previous thread starts to die. Perhaps there is already time for the next one?

>>14634350
If the Anne Frank thread can go on for this long the anything is possible

>>14632745
You misunderstood Philo. He said 6 is the first perfect number. The use of "one" just means individual in this case. All he is saying is that 6 is the first perfect number. He is not talking about the number 1.

If there was an actual Adam and Eve then why isn't this belief perennial? It doesn't show up in any other tradition around the world that I'm aware of. This goes for any interpretation of the story.

>>14634624
>If there was an actual Adam and Eve then why isn't this belief perennial? It doesn't show up in any other tradition around the world that I'm aware of. This goes for any interpretation of the story.

>>14634648
What the fuck is that eternal scab on his face

>>14634624
>Adam and Eve is unique
>he hasn't heard of pandora
>He didn't read >>14626495 where Hesiod pretty much describes Eden
if you haven't looked for anything, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it means youre making assumptions

>>14635196
Have you actually read Hesiod and Ovid? Pandora and some vague allusion to a paradise is a not analogous to the story of Adam and Eve. If you're going to be stupid I'll just ignore you.

>>14609041
>Why did God create Adam first?
Elohim created Adam first because perhaps Elohim had already thought of Adam and desired to create him from the beginning. Adam means man so that was just first. THEN Elohim saw Adam without partner. So Elohim made the perfect partner called wo-man.
>Why was it Eve who first sinned?
I don't know. Maybe that was a strategy of the Satan because Eve first was afraid of the Tree because it meant death. It then became a symbol of growth and transformation so she took it.
>Do you interpret the primeval story literally, or metaphorically? Its both. The scale of measurements and such might be off but it is telling the truth. The creation story closely matches the transformations of the natural world (Universe). It's often a mystery what is what but it brings glory to God when its still verified over and over by science.
>What are some metaphorical interpretations of the flood? The metaphorical derivations we can get from the flood is that the LORD deeply cares about goodness and our own well being. To make everything beautiful and perfect. We should keep loyal to God and stay away from sin.
>What is the purpose of God creating the universe over seven days? What purpose does it serve? Why seven days? I don't know I don't think the number serves a purpose. If God had created the world in 10 days then we would have 10th day sabbaths instead. Everything that is designed on earth to be holy is a mirror of how God does things. Its just to remember that God's glory fills the whole World.

>>14635216
>Pandora and some vague allusion to a paradise is a not analogous to the story of Adam and Eve
>Pandora opens a box and unleashes all the troubles on the world akin to eve eating the fruit and dooming man to a life of pain as well as a spiritual death
>Eden itself was a paradise where he was with that God and was cast out of just as man was no longer allowed to live with the gods of ancient Greece
Theres similarities. If you don't see them I cant help you. Maybe Marvel Comics are more your speed. Nothing to be ashamed of kid, just head out and read some and improve your reading skills

>>14615381
>>14615820
>>14617382
>Cain and Abel as Agricultural vs Pastoralism
Some broad points to think of:
Cain's offering being met with rejection
Cain's name meaning possession or acquire
Cain being described as "wholly intent on getting"
Cain's children who write the song of sword, the first men to take more than one wife, and Tubal-Cain who mastered iron and bronze and in turn created the blade.
Cain became “the author of measures and weights” and the founder of commercialism, ownership, and divisions between public and private life.
Cain “set boundaries about lands; he built a city, and fortified its wall, and he compelled his family to come together to it.”

I'm going to be taking Genesis as metaphorical for the sake of making a point, but know that I am not opposed to a more literal reading.
So through all this Cain is effectively moving from pastoralism to a lifestyle that is more similar to our modern everyday lives. His descendants invent music and metallurgy, but in tandem with this process of 'civilization', Cain and his lineage become more and more sinful every generation.
Cain's offering is rejected by God because farming symbolizes the beginning of a more sinful state of man. Man has fallen even further from the innocence and the primitive simplicity in the Garden of Eden, hence Cain building a city "East of Eden". If we are to take the Garden of Eden as metaphor then Adam and Eve are simply the first man and women to become aware that they are no longer simply animals, they have become hyper aware of their consciousness.
With this is mind, it becomes more clear as to why Adam and Eve's first children would be have such distinct and differing roles in early biblical society.

I have some other points to make and I haven't read the image in>>14615451, but I wanted to get the ball rolling.

Serious question: Who wrote the Torah? I don't think it was Moses because the writing style is not his biography. My hypothesis is that it was the Levitical tribe during the 40 year period. But everyone was aware of the creation story, Noah, Towel of Babel, and Abraham to Jacob story. They were common stories shared among the 12 tribes.

>>14635336
As a child I was told the issue with Cain's offering was simply that he did not offer his best, not the method in which he acquired the offering.
Bible doesn't explicitly state this, it is assumed agriculture is not sinful essentially.
Metaphorically yeah, it makes some sense that its bad, but then, I don't think its deridement of agriculture. Consider, Cain's curse is that he cant produce things from the ground anymore.
Agriculture is not an option, which is what God said man would have to do earlier in Genesis after failing in Eden.
So what does he do? He creates civilization likely to steal what others produce through the façade of government. It is here I think it lies, Civilization is evil and corrupts all things, not agriculture its self, though you cannot have civilization without it

>>14609041
>metaphorical interpretations of the flood
Because the flood occurs so early in letters the flood itself is often used as a metaphor more so than itself being a metaphor for some other situation that may have occurred; for instance the contemporary flood of (mis-)information due to the rise of mass telecom and its stultifying (as opposed to its convenient, or positively unifying) effects.
>real, unreal
Doesn't matter how interpreted, really. Like most archaic (or even merely antique) relations it is generally received as a tale. Does it have instructive value? Absolutely. Most tales that endure centuries, millenia, do.

>>14635372
Lots of theories around this. The one most accepted in academia is the Documentary hypothesis.

>>14635372
>don't think it was Moses because the writing style is not his biography.
Well it was a religious document where a God was stated to be God, not Moses. So the thing isn't going to cover just moses

>>14609049
Everyone should at least be reading alongside the original text. This /lit/ obsession with Bible translations is fucking embarrassing.

>>14635787
Is that what Youtube told you? The original documentary hypothesis is pretty outdated now.

where to start if I never read any of the bible but want to start doing so not so much for religious reseaons but more because I am interested in the content of it and seeing how many of it is reflected in other works of art or society/culture?

>>14609187
>literally

So you're a retard then

>>14636323
Get a kjv bible (regardless of translation matters most agree it has the most beautiful language)
Start with Genesis. It covers creation, Adam and eve, cain and abel, the flood, Abraham, Sodom and gomorah, Joseph and his coat of many colors and more

>>14634350
Pls hold until the thread is archived & pls link to previous thread on each thread
>>14635372
Whoever had the need to write it down

>>14636199
My Jewish Study bible says so, as well as the Yale Lectures on the Hebrew Bible. What is the up to date theory now?

>>14637923
No consensus since the late 20th century, probably why they default to the original. There are a number of derivatives but it's hard to tell where research will lead.

>>14633705
working on it

>>14633705
I asked a question. I set out the info genesis gives, no one has answered because everyone is too concerned about literal vs metaphorical when it's obvious it is both

>>14609041
>story literally, or metaphorically?
nonoe of them, the texts are just a bunch of Tales told together with no chronology in mind for the purpose of creating an unified priesthood.

>>14639652
>with no chronology
>trip fag is dumb
Muh shock

>>14639652
Atheists are practically incapable of being more constructive with their bait. It's a bit sad and quite telling.

>>14639409
Can you link your post? I think missed it, but it'd be interested in opening a new lane of discussions.
For me at least, I'm interested in both the metaphor and the literal, I said as much in a long post about Cain and Abel. But I think why I'm so interested in that sort of discussion with Genesis is because I'm a recent convert who struggles with faith daily. Sometimes it's hourly, or even minute to minute, where I truly feel like I can feel the love of God in my prayers and then the next it's gone.
And atheists love to throw out Reddit/Facebook tier arguments as if their thought process on denouncing God and Genesis is some grand wholly original counter point. I think it's worth to have these metaphor vs literal discussions despites them being as simple as they are.

>>14639652
This isn't Facebook. Try again.

>>14641817
Sure these were mine
>>14620539
>>14626164
Im trying to understand this stuff, but its hard to come up with anything beyond pure conjecture. Exegises (stuff people wrote later to provide back ground info) include a story that Abraham confronted Nimrod about Polytheism but, that's not mentioned here, and with the death and running, it seems like God told them to get out of dodge.

I get having issues with faith when youre starting out. Once you get farther in, you will realize how much of a boost he provides to you and you will wonder why you waited so long to seek him.
As to Metaphorical vs Literal, like I said I think its both. How do you take something like the flood non literal only? Or Adam and Eve being made non literal only?
The Bible is tough to study. Ive been taking notes in a note book when re reading Genesis, trying to wrap my head around everything. Its tough to understand it all and this is at least my fifth re read, let alone first so don't get discouraged. Just pray for God's help with your faith, your studies, and help with other aspects of your life and keep goin

>>14641817
>>14642717
At least that's the best advice I can give, seek God.
I would not consider myself an expert. Ive read the Bible cover to cover, pray daily, but Im by no means an expert or a beacon of perfection.

Just picked this up and it is pretty good. Early Christian Readings of Genesis One: Patristic Exegesis and Literal Interpretation. Not as good as What Is the Bible?: The Patristic Doctrine of Scripture by Matthew Baker by Mark Mourachian.

>>14642868
>seek God