/lit/ - Literature

Sure, I've been meaning to read the bible.

>>14599050
Great! Thats what I am trying to aim for as well. Not just reading the Old Testament from a Christian perspective though, but also understanding the point of view from Judaism. If you read the Old Testament thinking about Christ all the time, you'll get different interpretations than someone who are still waiting for him to come. There are so many theological differences between Judaism and Christianity that is rarely discussed.

>>14599017
Im in. Sounds like a good idea.

I read genesis and a chunk of exodus last fall from an annotated version (Quest study bible) I’m borrowing but put it down for sci-fi.

reading the old testament will make you disbelieve in christianity

>>14599095
Reading the New Testament will restore your faith in Christianity.

>>14599095
I dont know about that personally, but the point of the thread is not directly religious. I just want to have some frens to read the Bible with, starting witht the OT.

>>14599095
And that's a ...

>>14599100
well, the new testament is based on the jewish scriptures, it quotes it multiple times. not the other way around.

>>14599017
Yes I would like that, fren

Russel Gmirkin's work on the OT is very interesting. I have read his Berossus... but not his latest. Be warned, his books are expensive! Fortunately my local public library managed to get me a copy to read by borrowing it from Yeshiva U. in New York.

I'm in.

>>14599176
>>14599145
>>14599089


Alright, I'll be busy tomorrow, but will schedule some time for planing it all out on Sunday. Will perhaps make another thread tomorrow with some questions and stuffs if this one gets locked.

Fine by me. I'm now reading Kings 1

Sounds more productive than the usual besd dranslation threads

>>14599095
Only if you want to fit in with the secular world for some God-forsaken reason.

>>14599095
Reading OT made me believe more in Christianity
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sMQa78fY3Y
I recommend Michael S. Heiser's lectures

>>14599017
I'd love to start from Genesis w/ you, anon.

>>14599017
Pentateuch research intensifies

Yes. I try to read the Bible everyday but I don't go to church or mass and desperately wish I had someone to confide in whether it be for study or prayer. The closest thing I have to a religiously open friend are dead Catholics like Flannery O'conner.

"Dear God, I don’t want to have invented my faith to satisfy my weakness. I don’t want to have created God to my own image as they’re so fond of saying. Please give me the necessary grace, oh Lord, and please don’t let it be as hard to get as Kafka made it."

>>14599444
Watching videos like these where people try to retroactively impose their fanfic onto the original made me disbelieve in Christianity.

>>14599017
Yeah, I write autistically long and cited posts on why Jesus was the Messiah on every one of those fucking threads anyways, might as well refresh on the Bible with some like minded anons. You might want to make it a general and have a bunch of links or information in the OP as well.

>>14599017
Yes, I'd love to read the Bible with people. It's hard to get motivated unless I have someone to talk to about it.

I thought different translation might cause issue, but if anything we can decide on a translation and then welcome alternate translations as a means to open further discussion.
>>14600633
Not OP, but absolutely. Make it a general with links to previous threads in the archive and what not.

>>14600663
True. The main issue with the Old Testament is the books Martin Luther removed. Do we include them or not.

>>14600674
>Martin Luther
lmfao. what authority does a random g*rman bugman have to "remove" books from the Old Testament? he wasn't even Jewish.

>>14600633
>why Jesus was the Messiah
Give me one (1) of your strongest citations and explain why it's true and I will convert.

>>14600727
>a single citation
it’s difficult to prove all of Jesus with one citation, the ones in the running prove divinity or maybe very specific ones that only Jesus could have fulfilled. I’ll give you first and second place, which are neither of those, give me an hour.

>>14600750
actually I’ve gotta take a shit so maybe an hour and a half

>>14599017
>Old Testament
Why was Jesus so evil in it? What made him have such a change of heart?

>>14600557
Please give me the necessary grace, oh Lord, and please don’t let it be as hard to get as Kafka made it.

>>14600727
>>14600750
>>14600776
I'm late, it took me a while and I had a familar matter to attend to. I will give you 2 points. I always use the most Jewish-sympathetic versions possible, unless they are deliberately mistranslating a word to fit their narrative, as I demonstrate an example of in >>14543721 .

**Time**
The Messiah should have already arrived. This is not an iron-clad proof for Christ, but propose any other candidate as the Messiah that has already arrived and is not Christ as understood by Christians and you look so foolish that I don't have to worry about people reading this being persuaded of your view. This point is twofold, both from Daniel.
The first comes from Daniel 7 (https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16490/showrashi/true/jewish/Chapter-7.htm)), where Daniel sees four beasts, representing four gentile kingdoms respectively. They are, as the Jewish sage Rashi tells us, Babylon, Persia, Alexander the Great's empire, and as even he admits, the Roman Empire. The problem is, of course, that as the fourth beast arrives in 7:10-27, God personally judges the beasts and the Messiah arrives to establish an eternal kingdom and so on, all while the Fourth Beast has a dominion, and certainly it is tied to historical figures, e.g. Titus and Vespasian. Yet the Jews can find nobody who might fulfill such, a Messiah during the time of the Roman Empire, who brings any kind of judgement to those degenerate pagans, except for Jesus Christ.
The second comes from Daniel 9, particularly Daniel 9:26. Regardless of the Jewish numerology autism Rashi includes in his commentary, one thing is clear to even the most illiterate Louis Lunchbox guy:
26 *And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation.*
The Messiah comes, dies, and is אַיִן or has אַיִן, is nothing or has nothing, all before the destruction of the Second Temple decreed to be rebuilt in 7:24-25. The Second Temple was destroyed by the Fourth Beast, who "trampled" it into nothing, a beast more odious than those who came before, in 72 AD. Where was the Messiah? Who else could it have been but Jesus Christ? I have yet to hear a Jew answer me, and yet I have asked 3 wise ones I know of in real life.

>>14601386
Two Messiahs?
That there must be two messiahs is not foreign to Judaism, e.g. Rabbi Dosa (Babylonian Talmud, Sukkah 52a). This is already obvious earlier in Daniel 9:26 describing a Messiah who dies rather pitifully, but there are also further citations. Zechariah 12 and, famously, Isaiah 52, also describe a Messiah who dies, in the case of Zech 12, is mourned over "as an only son." It is impossible for the Messiah to simultaneously reign over his Kingdom forever, to free Israel and overall be the Chad of Chads and King of Kings and be glorious, yet ride into Jerusalem on a donkey (Zech 9:9-10), as Isaac did on his way to the Binding, or die pitifully before the Second Temple is destroyed. Neither of these messiahs, according to the Jews, came when they were supposed to. The Christians answer that it is not two messiahs, but ONE messiah who comes TWICE, which is much more sensible and is why the "two messiahs" are not spoken of as distinct in essence, but always princes of peace, shoots from David, and in the same messianic language. It also reflects David as One servant of God, as God has never had a consul system, but one King in his name. This, too, I have never heard a Jew answer, despite asking the 3 wise ones I know. One shrugged, the other did not respond, and yet another said that he only knew the verses in Hebrew.

>>14601386
>unless they are deliberately mistranslating a word to fit their narrative
assuming it means virgin and you're not the one selectively translating (as christians do all the time), literally why is it randomly talking about Mary when she will only be born in about 700 years and the prophecy pertains to some jewish war that was happening at the time?

>14601386
>the anointed one will be cut off
>The Messiah comes, dies
>implying "annointed" or "moshiach" isn't constantly used to refer to entities other than "the messiah"
Refute this. Shouldn't be too hard if Jesus or another part of God is indeed inspiring you to write this in English, because as we know God forgot Hebrew and just decided to write his new book in Greek.
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/daniel-9-a-true-biblical-interpretation/

>>14601386
>>14601738

I'm in

>>14599017
>Old Testament Study Thread
You will not gain much from studying it with an idolatrous perspective. You should first turn from your despicable ways and pray to only one G-d.

I've been reading a couple chapters from the book of Isaiah every night. I'd love to have a discussion on the Old Testament (preferably free of edge lords). I'm in.

>>14601759
>one God
>trinitary God
choose two

>>14599095
Not really, it's kino. Only if your heart is closed you will fail.

>>14601767
>has three parts
>is the One G-d
Choose one (i know you dislike that number you disgusting polytheist).

As an Orthodox Christian who did not apostate from Jesus' Catholic Church, I really fail to understand the Anglo desire to try and find Jesus in the Old Testament. It all seems so piss-poor and fanfic-like to me; you know, like those NASA truther websites. I firmly believe He wasn't prophesized there, or even if He was, it is not for our eyes to see until He comes again and reveals all of the hidden meanings of the Bible, the Old Testament and the New.

>>14601475
Great post aways informative

>>14601777
This. I've truly seen the degeneracy of this world recently and converted (in my heart, not baptized yet) to theism and then Christianity. Then I saw more arguments for God's existence and concluded that he cannot have parts, or he would be contingent on them and thus not unique and indivisible.

Is there a sect of Christianity which accepts this view?

>>14601790
Don't embarrass orthodox Christians whit your ignorance please, but read the church fathers or any orthodox reading of the OT.

>>14601803
>read the church fathers
>any orthodox reading of the OT
I do not accept most of them precisely because of them pushing ridiculous views spawned from not understanding Hebrew.

watching this thread. op wanna make a discord?

>>14601812
>discord
Why do you want to involve satanic garbage in a Bible discussion of all things?

>>14601805
It's good that the church does not ask for your opinion then.

>>14601799
theist can be friends, but I'm afraid the argument on absolute status of Christ is real

>>14599017
LETS DO THIS.

>>14601821
It isn't really an unpopular opinion where I am from, I've discussed it with priests before and some are quite sympathetic to this viewpoint.

>>14599017
yes, but make it a critical and unbiased analysis instead of a theistic circle-jerk about how that zeus-tier desert god is somehow the creator of the universe.

>>14601824
>the argument on absolute status of Christ is real
How can God have parts though? That's just completely non-sensical. When I pray I do not see any parts of God. I see only him and nothing else.

Yeah I'd enjoy that. I'm on Isaiah rn, finding it a bit denser than the other books. It's fairly simple when you think of it is a premonition of Christ but it's more difficult in the actual historical context. I've also jumped around and read some stuff that isn't strictly canonical, like every single Maccabees, which i enjoyed quite a bit

>>14601848
Yea marcionism is a really popular herecy at the moment.

>>14601853
trinity is not about three parts. If God decides to become a single spirit in Christ, just let him. he knows what he's doing, I mean, this single spirit sacrificed himself for the Holy Spirit of humanity. So trinity is really a three-step process of a unity within the spirit of God.

>>14601863
>It's fairly simple when you think of it is a premonition of Christ
>but it's more difficult in the actual historical context
Might have something to do with it being only one of those things... I wonder which one...

>>14601877
I'd like to analyze from both perspectives because both are historically significant. I'm not reading the Bible to substantiate an opinion, just to improve my understanding

>>14601853
God trancednds the rule, of and and the many. The moment when you allow God to be all powerful the trinity is no longer a big problem.

>>14601874
Then what is it about? Is Christ not a part of the Trinity? If so, how is he God when the God is the limit of the sum of all parts inside the Trinity? If he isn't, then how is he Divine in the first place? I know that he could incarnate, but he would need to shed his divinity completely and arrange for another God to take his place for that time. Which I believe was the Holy Spirit. I essentially believe in God the Father being one and only one, Jesus being incarnate and not Divine, and the Holy Spirit being God only when Jesus was walking the Earth.

Are there issues with this view?

>>14601868
Do they have special Churches I could go to and talk with the priests/pastors?

>>14601884
God still cannot perform contradictory actions though, as I see it. He still cannot break his own logical laws he himself established, as that would detract from his all-powerful nature.

>>14601890
>Do they have special Churches I could go to and talk with the priests/pastors?
No it mostly comes form theological ignorance, church history ignorance or anty semitisum.

>>14601890
Cute picture. Mary was divine. Prove me wrong.

>>14601890
God still cannot perform contradictory actions though, as I see it. He still cannot break his own logical laws he himself established, as that would detract from his all-powerful nature
I don't see why he can't break his own las that he made a sustains. But if you submit God to thous laws you end up with either the monad or demiurge as the Greeks did.

>>14601890
> the Holy Spirit being God only when Jesus was walking the Earth
never heard this before. where did you get this idea? For Christians God is alive, Jesus is alive, the Holy Spirit is alive. While Catholics believe the Holy Spirit is limited to the Catholic church, which it is clearly not once you judge them by their fruit, the others such as Protestant believe that two gathering in the name of Christ would suffice to manifest the Holy Spirit.

>>14599089
>so and so begat so and so
oh okay thanks g-d for this essential info

Who were the Nephilim mentioned in Genesis 6:1-4? Were they literal giants or did it refer to something else entirely?

Don't forget OP! 28 anons and not a single shitpost

>>14601943
It is essential, even if you don't know how to parse it.

Ok so I was reading the Old Testament from the beggining and having a blast, and suddenly this one jew guy Jacob starts wrestling with an angel, like out of nowhere, and left. what the fuck happened there.

>>14599017
My favourite thing about Abrahamic texts are the angels and the stories and descriptions about them, i don't know why but i find them so interesting, especially Azrael

>>14599017

I am interested, how do I join? :).

>>14602579
Sign up for 4chan Gold

What's the importance of reading Chronicles?

I'm working my way through Genesis (I'm reading them out of sync) and I can't help but notice from a narrative perspective how poorly paced it is. Everything from the creation fo the world to Adam and Eve to Cain and Able to Noah and the Flood happens within the space of less than 10 pages.

And God's justification for flooding and destroying the world he just created is articulated in a single paragraph, where he says that man had grown wicked . And following the flood he basically says "I'll make a deal with you Noah. I'll never do that again, honestly I don't know what I was thinking." Does this mean Noah redeemed life in God's eyes?

>>14602579
I will make a thread tomorrow, starting with The Primeval Story.

>>14602275
Thats great to see. I am very excited to make this happen.

A question I got for you guys, are there certain books that you think we would be better of jumping over? There are some essentials, and I think its best to cover it chronologically, but do you want to do all books? either is fine by me.

>>14602735
Because it's not a history book. Everything in the OT anticipates Christ and His Covenant. Therefore Adam and Eve is relevant, Noah is relevant, and Abraham onwards is very relevant. The pre-Abraham stuff is glossed over because it only contains a few teachings for salvation in our current age.

>>14602750
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I may very well be, but isn't the first 5 books of the Old Testament the Torah? How could it then be glossed over? It's not an abridged version of it?

If anyone has any recommended reading, videos, or other supplements that can help enrichen the threads to come, please let me know. I will try to make a sticky with readings etc. that help interpretating the literature.

>>14602791
Do podcasts count?
I listened to an episode of the Naked Bible once and it seemed good.

>>14602816
Absolutely, everything that helps one understand the Bible, provides a interpretation, or further info.

I've already collected some lectures from Yale, the Jewish Study Bible, etc.

>>14599017
http://syz.best

Also interested.

Top 3 OT books?
For me, it's Ecclesiastes, Exodus, and 2nd Samuel

>>14601799
Christians believe that God has no parts. This doctrine is known as divine simplicity, and it is by no means in conflict with the doctrine of the trinity.

>>14603214
>divine simplicity
>also God is a trinity
yeah ok buddy

>>14599017
Can someone explain this verse to me?
>Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her.
Genesis 20:6

Can't be asked to post context but the first 5 verses will explain everything. But the reason why I posted it was because it seemed like God can stop people from sinning if he wants to and so if he wanted to stop the whole world or even just Adam and Eve he could have done so by making them no do it.


Thoughts?

>>14599017
Such a terrible book what else do you need to study?

>>14603192
Jonah, Exodus, Job

Yes this would be great. The motivation and discussion will be nice. I'm currently reading Acts but can switch back to OT

>>14603192
You shouldn't be disregarding the proverbs.

>>14603259
The trinity is a mystery that is beyond human comprehension, but if you are curious how it is consistent with Gods’s simplicity, I would recommend reading Aquinas’s Summa Theological part 1 l, and pic related. The first thing to realize, though, is that the persons of the trinity are not “parts” or “portions” of the one and simple divine essence.

>>14603285
Gods grace shines on everything, but depending on the state of your heart it can have different effects. If your heart is pure it helps you aginst sin of not it can harden like the heart of the pharaoh.
The analogy normally given is how light can harden some resin but melt wax.

>>14603390
I kinda disagree. Wouldn't this mean that when God revealed himself to Paul he should have been hardened?

>>14603390
Also, wouldn't it mean that the king has a purer heart than Adam and Eve since they were not able to resist evil by God's grace but the king was?

>>14600633
Cool.

>>14602736
What will be the frequency and how much will roughly be covered each time?

>>14599017
Open in a new tab and remove the letter m if the image is too blurry to read.

>>14601890
Marcionism doesn't have Churches anymore, the movement died early in the gnostic era, but variations of marcionism are certainly practiced by a few churches here and there.

>>14602753
The first five books basically cover the history of the Jews and the Law. But the Law itself was only a pale shadow of what was to come, namely salvation through the grace of God and the death of his son on the cross.

The OT provides context for a lot of things in the NT for instance when Paul says if the blood of animals was sufficient to forgive sin the priests wouldn't have to sacrifice year after year. Well you can find out about the Jewish system of sacrifice in the OT. And understanding the Law and the impossible standard it sets for you will help you understand the necessity and fundamental goodness of the work of the Christ.

>>14603401
No why would it harden his heart when it is opened to God and he is not a sinner.
>>14603441
Considering they are the beginning off all sin, maybe.

>>14603192
Job, Isaiah, Psalms

>>14603300
>Jonah
Dangerously based, also check'd
>>14603313
I don't, they just aren't in my top 3 but I do still value them dearly
>>14604274
Also good taste

>>14599017
I've currently read through Genesis and Exodus in the last two weeks, and I was going to start Leviticus today.

>>14603192
Jonah, Ecclesiastes, Psalms

I'd rather study The Silmarillion. It's just as real (isn't) and is arguably more amusing.

>>14604739
Shut up (((kike)))

>>14604739
To have a proper understanding of Tolkien you need an understanding of Christianity (specifically the Roman Catholic Church in the case of Tolkien)
You must have felt really smart posting that, sorry to be the one that informs you of your retardation

>>14603192
Job, Daniel Isaiah

>falling for obvious bait
Please don't guys

>>14600973
What does this mean? Are you asking as to why God was "evil"? He wasn't, if you read the OT you come to realize the fundamental theme is that of showing God's glory and offering redemption to His people- the NT is founded on it. You can't just read the NT without the OT as that's where the prophecies are, and some books become meaningless otherwise.
>>14599095
Why does Matthew discuss fulfillment of prophecies and Jesus' genealogy? You can't answer that without the Old Testament. Why does Paul write in Romans about the Jews and about the Abrahamic Covenant being applicable to the Church? You need the OT to understand. What is the point of Chirst? You need to read Genesis to understand. Why is the idea of Jews not accepting the gospel, while gentiles accept it rapidly, so important? Why would Paul mention this in Romans? You would need to read the Old Testament.
>>14603259
>>14601777
>God discusses with Himself during Creation
>Jesus still prays to God despite being God
Yep. I'm thinking I'm a Unitarian thanks to these two profound Biblical analyses. >>14601853
One time I decided to prank call a "do you know where your soul is going" billboard and got a rather interesting answer. The guy asked me to envision three infinite sets, each containing different numbers. Each set is infinite, and each infinite is not greater than the other. However, they are still infinite even when all three differing sets are combined into one set. Neither set is more glorious, much like neither part of the trinity can be more powerful. It is all God (an maximally great being), yet each part is also maximally great. I'm still pondering this mathematical method of describing the trinity, but it doesn't have any obvious flaws when compared to other examples that typically enter heresy.
>>14602315
>wrestling an angel
Pretty sure that was God. Maybe. He's named Israel now so that's cool.
>>14603192
Ecclesiastes, Job, Genesis.

>>14604829
To add onto the "evil" thing. After the fall, Man was cursed. We are dead beings, and the destructive acts done by God are only a tiny portion of His wrath and a tiny portion of valid punishment. Hell is separation from God (a truly terrible existence when you think about it), and Revelation describes immensely more painful destruction to Earth.
Therefore, when you read about things happening to Egypt, or the things that happen to Job, it all ultimately advances God's glory and sets the stage for Chirst.
People fail to understand within Christianity, morality isn't truly "objective", that is to say, it isn't an inherent principle of Creation. Rather, sin is rebellion against God. Knowledge of Good and Evil wasn't what damned Adam and Eve. The decision to take a shortcut and disobey rather than walk with God was what cursed them.

>>14601386
>>14601475
I'm back.

>>14601793
Thanks, I try to be above shitposting and shitflinging. While the people I argue against will rarely change their minds, I keep doing it for the people reading like you.

>>14604829
>>14604855
Glad to see you here.

>>14601738
Every time the Hebrew word עַלְמָה is used, it refers to a virgin. Why would it just mean "woman of childbearing age" when a woman who bears a child is by definition of childbearing age? Begone and read the post I linked to in full (http://boards.4channel.org/lit/thread/14539678#p14543721).). https://www.messie2vie.fr/bible/strongs/strong-hebrew-H5959-almah.html may educate you further.

>>14604936
Thanks fren. I try to clear up misinfo and answer questions on the Bible when possible. Many boards have preconceived notions on the Bible, and often do topical reading of a few verses to prove a point.

>>14604936
>Additionally, a birth to a woman of childbearing age is unremarkable, and it is not logical to be so redundant in describing something so important in Isaiah 7
Because the sign wasn't the birth of the child, but Ahaz's enemies getting blown the fuck out before he grows up. The child doesn't have any significance in the prophecy except as a chronological marker.

>10 Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, saying, 11 Ask a sign of the Lord your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven. 12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, and I will not put the Lord to the test. 13 Then Isaiah[d] said: “Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary mortals, that you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman[e] is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel.[f] 15 He shall eat curds and honey by the time he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted.

Furthermore, the almah in question is already pregnant when the prophecy is being made.

>>14605239
How did Matthew get away with taking that so out of context?

>>14604228
>No why would it harden his heart when it is opened to God and he is not a sinner.
It wasn't though. He was killing Christians and other horrid things.

>Considering they are the beginning off all sin, maybe.
A lack of a pure heart is a result of previous sins that make you fall deeper and deeper into depravity. What was the initial sin that caused them to have an impure heart unless you want to say God created something that isn't good.

>>14604228
Also, if you're the other anon then I'd disagree with the idea that God's grace can harden some and loosen others. God's grace can only bring about good and there's no such thing as it hardening some and melting others. What does cause sin is the lack of God's grace. So I am unsatisfied with your interpretation of genesis 20:6

>>14603192
Ecclesiastes, Job and judges I guess. I like a good story book.

>>14601475

what are some of your favorite or most interesting stories or people in the OT /lit/?

I'd say King David and Solomon are pretty interesting

>>14600674
Yes, you obviously should. Read Enoch as well.

>>14601790
This is a terrible post. Why would you misrepresent my church like this, Fyodor

>>14601916
All Christians who partake in the sacraments are divine, that’s the point.

>>14601983
I am unconvinced it should be understood in the brainlet big guy for u understanding

>>14603192
Psalms, Job, and Tobit

More like this please.

>>14599017
Yes please, I've been wasting way too much time on /lit/, and way too little reading. This would be a nice incentive.

>>14604936
>Every time the Hebrew word עַלְמָה is used...
Do you not even try to read the shit you respond to? That post only concerns people called annointed, nothing about virgins. I assume you have no answer to that Jewish blog explaining common Christian confusions.

Also, you did not answer the other guy who actually talked about the actual contex of the almah quote and how it makes no sense for that to be Mary regardless of what the word even means >>14601713

I want to speed run the bible
how is my voice ?

I am new to reading out loud so there are some slight error and i just finish reading for 1:30 minutes out loud .

>>14604936
>Every time the Hebrew word עַלְמָה is used, it refers to a virgin.
This has to be anti-Christian bait at this point, Christians aren't this dumb. First result in Google of a Jew discussing this (which you would have found already if it was actually important to your worldview as a Christian)

>How accurate is this Christian claim? The only place to explore this assertion is in the Jewish Scriptures. If the Hebrew word alma means virgin, then each usage in the Bible must be either a clear reference to a virgin or at the very least appear ambiguous. The word alma appears in the Jewish Scriptures seven times in the feminine and twice in the masculine. If even one reference refers to a woman who is clearly not a virgin, then Matthew’s rendition of Isaiah 7:14 becomes untenable.

>One of the places where the uncommon Hebrew word almah appears in the Bible is in the Book of Proverbs. The word “proverb” means “to be like,” thus Proverbs is a book of comparisons between common, concrete images and life’s most profound truths. Proverbs are simple, moral statements (or illustrations) that highlight and teach fundamental realities about life. In the following passage, King Solomon presents the following vivid analogy:

>There are three things which are too wonderful for me, for which I do not understand: 19the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a rock, the way of a ship in the middle of the sea, and the way of a man with a young woman [b’almah][/b’almah]. 20This is the way of an adulterous woman: she eats and wipes her mouth, and says, “I have done no wrong.”(Proverbs 30:18-20)

[cont]

>>14606588
>In the above three verses, King Solomon compares a man with an alma to three other things: an eagle in the sky, a serpent on a rock, and a ship in the sea.
>What do these four things all have in common?
>They leave no trace.
>After the eagle has flown across the sky, it is impossible to determine whether an eagle had ever flown through that airspace. Once a snake has slithered over a rock, there is no way to discern that the snake had ever crossed there (as opposed to a snake slithering over sand or grass, where it leaves a trail). After a ship passes through the sea, the wake behind it comes together and settles behind it, leaving no way to discern that a ship had ever moved through this body of water.

>Similarly, King Solomon declares that once a man has been sexually intimate with an almah, i.e. a young woman, no trace of sexual intercourse is visible, unlike a virgin who will leave behind a discharge of blood after her hymen is broken.

>Therefore, in the following verse (Proverbs 30:20) King Solomon explains that once this adulterous woman “eats” (a metaphor for her fornication), she removes the trace of her sexual infidelity, “wipes her mouth, and says, ‘I have done no wrong.’” The word alma clearly does not mean a virgin.

>In the same way that in the English language the words “young woman” does not indicate sexual purity, in the Hebrew languagethere is no relationship between the words almah and virgin. On the contrary, it is usually a young woman who bears children. The word alma only conveys age/gender. Had Isaiah wished to speak about a virgin, he would have used the word betulah1 (בְּתוּלָה) not almah. The word betulah appears frequently in the Jewish Scriptures, and is the only word – in both biblical and modern Hebrew – that conveys sexual purity.

>Moreover, as mentioned earlier, the masculine form of the noun עַלְמָה (alma) is עֶלֶם (elem), which means a “young man,” not a male virgin. This word appears twice in the Jewish Scriptures (I Samuel 17:56, 20:22). As expected, without exception, all Christian Bibles correctly translate עֶלֶם as a “young man,” “lad,” or “stripling,” never “virgin.” Why does the King James Version of the Bible translate the masculine Hebrew noun לָעֶלֶם (la’elem) as “to the young man” in I Samuel 20:22, and yet the feminine form of the same Hebrew noun הָעַלְמָה as “a virgin” in Isaiah 7:14? The answer is Christian Bibles had no need to mistranslate I Samuel 20:22 because this verse was not misquoted in the New Testament.

>>14599017
I like the Robert Alter version, can we read that one?

>>14601790
>>14605285
I'm reading this Matthew misquotation stuff and it's making me reject the innerancy of NT. Is there a sect of Christians (orthodox maybe? don't know much about them) who do not accept some of the Gospels? I know there were older gospels like Thomas which were not accepted, so there is a precedent for that.
Maybe we need to revive some form of non-heretical Gnosticism so that we can focus more on the esoteric meaning of the Incarnation, Christ's Love for us, his Eucharist and the Holy Sacraments instead of a corrupted text. How would one even in theory go about doing such a thing?

>>14606820
>non-heretical gnosticism
No such thing, but stop getting hung up on notions of orthodoxy and heterodoxy, it's not as if there was a truly Orthodox position until the time of Constantine anyway and why do you care what some roman faggot thought

>>14606936
>No such thing
Why not?

>>14606936
>stop getting hung up on notions of orthodoxy and heterodoxy
There clearly are heterodox forms of Christianity which are highly destructive (see protestantism) so one should at least be aware of these notions in that general sense of heterodoxy.

>>14606576
forgot vocaroo
https://vocaroo.com/76zGiLF2VtR

>>14604802
With all the black and white logic about good and evil, why would you need to have hit up Christianity to understand Tokien? It's so simple. Absolutes are for trogs, namely Christians, like you. Now go die for God in some useless war over vague sentiments.

>>14601890
>God cannot...
Wrong.

>>14607387
>God cannot [delete himself from existence]
>Wrong.
Based.

>>14607400
God theoretically can do anything, but abides by His perfect understandings of Reason and Good, so there are things that God can do, but will not do

>>14607489
>God has unrealized potential
Based.

>>14606576
read some more to us nig-non, your voice is soothing.

no one can be an atheist who does not know all things. Only God is an atheist. The devil is the greatest believer and he has his reasons.

>>14607504
Making any choice realizes a potential over unrealized ones, and God makes choices regarding creation that involve doing just that
read a bit of Leibniz's discourse on metaphysics if you find that interesting

>>14607691
>Leibniz
Guenon actually refuted parts of his thought.

>>14607691
>God makes choices
He does not.

>>14607620
I can tell you're being sincere and it's hilariously sad. I understand that you lack the courage to stand the pain, but worry not for we are all together in this life that seems so treacherous, so disappointing. I hope that you step out of your own way and let grace into your heart.

>>14607041
>>14607041
I can tell you're being sincere and it's hilariously sad. I understand that you lack the courage to stand the pain, but worry not for we are all together in this life that seems so treacherous, so disappointing. I hope that you step out of your own way and let grace into your heart.

>>14605637
Then how does God harden the heart of the Pharo in exodus ? That is where I'm getting my interpretation.

Let’s start at the beginning. Looking forward to sharing my take on the two accounts of creation

Have any of you read this book, it has been recommended to me, but I was never that interested in the old messianic prophexy, if you are maybe check it out.

>>14601852

This is exactly my goal. I am deeply interested myself in how the writers of the OT was heavily influenced by their peers. You don't have to do much research to find the similarities between stories in the OT and contemporary texts, like the Enuma Elish and The Epic og Gilgamesh.

I think the Old Testament becomes way more interesting if you read it like you don't know whats going to happen. Lots of the stories are very well known in our culture, and interpretations have come along with them. Reading them with a fresh view can make one find more interesting interpretations.

>>14606621
Does it really matter that much which version we choose? Personally, I am Norwegian, and will primarly be reading an old Norwegian translation of the OT. However, I have a pdf of The Jewish Study Bible, which I always read the commentary on after each chapter. I will occasionally look on at newer Norwegian translation, since the one I am reading is focusing more on being poetic, than necessarily translating the word 100% correct.

I actually believe it would enrichen the threads if we use different versions and study bibles. However, I will include the Robert Alter Version in the sticky so people have some options to choose from.

> study bible
i'm going for a comfy read, New Living Translation.

Alright, I've planned out the first five books we'll be going through - the Torah.

I've also made the sticky now, and will be making the thread later today.

>>14608392
Should probably use something publicly available as many people might not be willing to invest in commercial editions atm.

As an avid enthusiast of biblical translation, my pick for small portions and individual verses is the ASV and the ESV or RSV-2CE for more extensive reading because of their literalness while being sufficiently simple to read. The reason why I'd hold the Catholic edition of the RSV in regard is partly because changes introduced by it were incorporated into subsequent revisions of the standard RSV, but also simply because of its translation quality. I also see little difference between it and the ESV. I find just about all other contemporary translations to be more sanitized and simplified in comparison. Some of the oft-mentioned 'poeticness' or flowery language of older translations is sometimes the very eloquence of the source texts' languages themselves. The ASV on the other hand was largely a revision of the KJV to incorporate Alexandrian texts in the NT, and is a source to which many multiple translations are traceable to such as the JPS Tanakh of 1917, the RSV, NRSV, ESV, NASB, and the WEB. To finalize it's appropriate to judge a translation by the actual quality of it as opposed to its provenance or the number of books or verses it may contain.

Here are some official uploads of the RSV-2CE and ESV.

>RSV-2CE https://www.catholicstudybible.org/WebBibleTAL/WebPlayer.aspx?bbNum=01001&bVerse=1&F=cbBookPickResult
>ESV
https://www.esv.org/Genesis+1/

>Changes in the Revised Standard Version – Catholic Edition
http://www.bible-researcher.com/rsv-ce.html

>>14608392
Should probably use something publicly available as many people might not be willing to invest in commercial editions atm.

As an avid enthusiast of biblical translation, my pick for small portions and individual verses is the ASV and the ESV or RSV-2CE for more extensive reading because of their literalness while being sufficiently simple to read. The reason why I'd hold the Catholic edition of the RSV in regard is partly because changes introduced by it were incorporated into subsequent revisions of the standard RSV, but also simply because of its translation quality. I also see little difference between it and the ESV. I find just about all other contemporary translations to be more sanitized and simplified in comparison. Some of the oft-mentioned 'poeticness' or flowery language of older translations is sometimes the very eloquence of the source texts' languages themselves. The ASV on the other hand was largely a revision of the KJV to incorporate Alexandrian texts in the NT, and is a source to which multiple translations are traceable to such as the JPS Tanakh of 1917, the RSV, NRSV, ESV, NASB, and the WEB. To finalize it's appropriate to judge a translation by the actual quality of it as opposed to its provenance or the number of books or verses it may contain.

Here are some official uploads of the RSV-2CE and ESV.

>RSV-2CE
https://www.catholicstudybible.org/WebBibleTAL/WebPlayer.aspx?bbNum=01001&bVerse=1&F=cbBookPickResult
>ESV
https://www.esv.org/Genesis+1/

>Changes in the Revised Standard Version – Catholic Edition
http://www.bible-researcher.com/rsv-ce.html

>>14608537
Can you make a poll to see which translation everyone is using? Just for kicks really.

>>14608619
Sure, I'll throw it in the sticky. Which options should I throw in?

>>14608645
The only one I'm confident someone will read is the KJV; the poll should have a write-in option for everyone else.

>>14608645
Don't include the KJV, Douay-Rheims, Message, NRSV, or OSB if you want a meaningful input.

>>14609041
>>14609041
>>14609041

The thread is made.

bump

>>14610072
I've created the actual study thread, no need to use this one.

>>14608322
He doesn't harden it by grace but by his eternal decree. Read Romans 9:17-18
>For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

>>14610915
I guess grace were not the right word to use there. But couldn't d not think of another English one.