/lit/ - Literature

I wouldn't have a clue because they're not BOOKS. So discuss them on /v/, a board about VIDEO GAMES not on /lit/, which is about BOOKS.

>>1458865

>goes to /v/: "can video games be literary?"
>"i dunno, faggot, how about you talk about this shit on /LIT/ which is about BOOKS?

I prefer Morrowind to Oblivion. Both are literary, but Morrowind so much more so. The Elder Scrolls has its own literature, history, lore; there's cartography, mythology, religion. It follows the hero quest. Morrowind took me fucking two years to beat (including all the extraneous side quests). It's a fucking epic, it's like The Odyssey.

I don't know if video games can be art, OP. The experience of a book is nothing like the experience of a video game IMO.

goddammit OP why would you put up oblivion instead of morrowind

>>1458923
I've only played a little bit of Morrowind I got off the boat and spoke to someone and quit because I had no idea what to do. Plus the graphics are some of the worst I've ever seen for a computer game.

>>1458865
/lit/'s about literature, not books.

OP, they can be art. I would say that Earthbound was art. However, it is difficult to analyse a video game, since the experience is neither strictly ludological (a game), nor narrative, and, on top of that, there's a massive social aspect too. The emergent gameplay aspects are difficult to analyse as well. Those are the main barriers to claiming it as art.

First, define "art".

>>1458921

I agree, the graphics blow, but Morrowind really isn't about gameplay anyway; you have to immerse yourself in the story.

>>1458954
If games aren't about gameplay then why even make video games? If they aren't about the gameplay, then they should just be made movies instead.

inb4 d&e posts his mwf2 fanfiction

>>1458954
morrowind's battle system is complete bullshit

>>1458996
you mean arcueid tho

>>1459002
Gotta say man. I've seen you around and tried to be nice, supported you a little, said I wanted to read your MW2 fanfic, felt sorry for you when you said your life is sad and lonely and you just sit at home playing videogames and getting high.But you're also a fucking dick sometimes. I don't feel so sorry for you anymore. And I no longer want to read your stories. (I originally thought they were stories involving modern warfare... not Modern Warfare as in Call of Duty Modern Warfare).

Graphics = Art
Music = Art
Literature = Art

Video games are art

>>1459008
>>1459002

>>1459002
Exactly, this doesn't even make sense any more

>>1458996
thread derailed

>>1459015
Gotta say man. I've seen you around and tried to be nice, supported you a little, said I wanted to read your MW2 fanfic, felt sorry for you when you said your life is sad and lonely and you just sit at home playing videogames and getting high.But you're also a fucking dick sometimes. I don't feel so sorry for you anymore. And I no longer want to read your stories. (I originally thought they were stories involving modern warfare... not Modern Warfare as in Call of Duty Modern Warfare).

Deep and Edgy literally wrote a Call of Duty: Moder Warfare fan fiction and has an oddly-shaped penis

Art is experimental forms of communication. So yes video games are art.

this game is art in its purest form

"don't fuck with a witch" is a quote i live my life by

>>1459018
Reposting what someone said to them over and over again is hilarious

>>1458983
The social and narrative aspects. Adventure games weren't about gameplay as much as they were about narrative.

>>1459002
Whether or not you like it's now you, D&E. You wrote a Call of Duty fan fiction

>>1459029
Yes but books and movies can both tell narratives betterly I don't think you see my point

>>1459040
better*

Yes and No. It depends. And now I make my leave. Have a good day /lit/!

Where's the fanfiction I seriously want to read it

>>1459040
"better" no, differently yes. To some degree, the gameplay itself is a narrative, and narrative is, in a sense, a kind of play, so it's kinda all about narrative.

>>1459053
so would I

Video games fall under a category of art known as interactive art.
A primary conviction of Ebert's opinion on the subject was that because the experience differs between player, the message and artistic value contained therein would always be in flux.
Interactive art thrives on the idea that everyone who experiences it will take away their own message.

In short: Ebert is a narrow-minded asshat.

Really, all games are art. The question, as it is with other mediums, is whether a given game is GOOD art.

Shadow of the Colossus

/thread

>>1459057

>>1459024
No ur wrong. Art is negated modes of comprehension. So no video games are not art, since they all rely on predefined rules of game mechanic.

>>1459061

how is killing giant stone monsters art

\thread

>>1459061

loldeep
nah I kid. It was incredible. I want a game that's like that with 100 or so giant bosses to climb and kill.

>>1459060
>Interactive art thrives on the idea that everyone who experiences it will take away their own message.
>The question, as it is with other mediums, is whether a given game is GOOD art.
If every gamer takes away his own message, then one cannot say whether the message of the game is good art or not. Moron.

minesweeper

/thread

>>1459069
If we were talking about games like checkers or chess, this may be true, but we're not, and it's not.

>>1459082
>message of the game is good art
You've changed focus from the game itself to the message taken away. Poor thinking.

This exact thread is on /tv/ and is winding down. Time to migrate.

Anyway, I'm in the "no" camp.

great artists of the world:

poetry and drama: shakespeare
novel: cervantes
music: beethoven
painting and sculpting: michelangelo
video game: some japanese guy you never heard of

>>1459103
>implying the japanese make good videogames

>>1459103
>novel
>cervantes

>>1459103
Will Wright?

>>1459103
But Cliffy B's not japanese, and everyone's heard of him

>>1459106
>i hate everything japanese!
>am i cool now gaise?!?

>If every gamer takes away his own message, then one cannot say whether the message of the game is good art or not. Moron.

Art in all mediums actually has an interactive element: every participant will always have their own impression.
Every viewer of a painting will have an opinion on whether it is good art; they will all have their own message. The same hold true in literature, music and cinema.

Everyone has their own tastes and everyone will have their own opinion on what is and is not good art. If you want to take you argument to the most logical extreme, because of the varying message, no one can say whether any art is good art or not

>>1459082
>mediums

>implying art can be objectively good or bad
That's my whole issue with the "VIDYA R ART" thing.
Are all are classified as art? If so, how can they be given ratings? How is it possible for a piece of art to just be "bad" or rated on a scale of 1-10? It can't be, so video games aren't art.

Or are only some art, such as SotC? But how can you just decide that the rest aren't? It just doesn't make sense. If this is the case, the ones that are "art" are no longer video games because they are classified differently, so video games still aren't art.

>>1459110
>He cites Shigeru Miyamoto as his biggest influence.[1
close enough

SOC is art in each aspect you see it. It's art in its minimalistic narrative, its art design, and its gameplay mechanics as well. But that's just one game.
Games still have a big road to follow before they can be art. And the worse part of all, is that the gamer public is the one supposed to do the first step.

>>1459123
Sorry about the redundancy with the rating thing. I missed the first sentence about it when rereading my post before posting so I added it in.

I don't think things are art unless they're intentionally made as a piece of art, especially post-dada and the likes. I often think people diminish the importance of other things by grouping it as art, as if art is the only true outlet of human creativity and the god of Art can only perceive the immense wealth of their singularly divine human soul when their output is primarily Art with a capitalisation.

The main reasonable dispute I have against gaming products as art would be the comparison between art films and non-art films. Both could be easily fitted into either or both categories, but do you do a disservice to either by shoving it into the wrong one in an attempt to level-up.

I'd certainly say that one of the biggest failings of artists is their apparent lack of involvement in the technologies games are made with. I can only think of one working artist who works in this medium.

>>1459144
O yeah, one of the best soundtracks ever too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=147rTHgKmXY

>>1459144
>minimalistic narrative
Space invaders has pretty minimalistic narrative too bro

>art design
Space invaders also has great art design

>gameplay mechanics
Space Invaders plays much more better than shadow of the colossuss

>>1459123
It's because you've attempted first to define something new called Art, rather than recognise that Art already exists, and that any definitions are merely an imperfect description that you're getting into trouble.

>>1459164
>Space invaders also has great art design
no I'd say it's only OK. but no one will deny the importance of Space Invaders in the history of game development, so I don't see your point

>>1459157
All films are Art bro.

>>1459169
Maybe you could fool someone with that shit 2000 years ago brah

>>1459164
I'm SI not it isn't art, i'm just saying that i consider SOC what every game should aspire to be. It had a clear purpose, and the the dev behind was expressing himself.
And Space Invaders had no narrative.

A-FUCKING-HEM

>>1459157
What video games have you played?

>>1459178
It's as much an issue now as it ever was.

>>1459164
>Space Invaders plays much more better than shadow of the colossuss

he meant 'betterly', right stag?

>>1459179
>It had a clear purpose
so has every video game ever made

>the dev behind was expressing himself
So is every dev who has ever made a video-game

>Space Invaders had no narrative.
That's why it was minimalistic

>>1459179
The narrative in Space Invaders is "Aliens are attacking earth, you must defend". That they were aliens, the ultimate outsiders, was a big point in the game, the inspiration coming from Welles' War of the Worlds.

>>1459185
Yeah sure if by "issue" you mean a laughing-stock position virtually no serious philosopher entertains today given the last 70 years of analytic work

>>1459192
>>It had a clear purpose
>so has every video game ever made
What is the clear purpose in the Sims?

>>1459182
I'm thinking about getting a PS3 just for that. Why can't they just release it for master race ;_;

>>1459202
If anything, this idea of the inability of knowing something's true nature is at the very core of contemporary philosophy.

>>1459208
again you're roughly 70 years late.

>>1459209
more like 200 years

>>1459192
It has a purpose other than selling to a large number of people.
And something having no narrative is not the same as having minimalistic narrative. In Space Invaders you just have a premise, while in SOC there's development.

>>1459203
TO HAVE FUN YOU FUCKING NITWIT, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER REAL VIDEO GAME EVER MADE. WHAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS?

>>1459216
So video games are just made so people can have fun Mr. Caps Lock?
Then how do you explain Final Fantasy X?
But seriously, the same "thing" that moves writers, musicians, artists and so, that compels them to this way of expressing themselves, it also happens to game devs.

>>1459216
What about the videogames they have to play in the Army that simulate war?

>>1459227
>So video games are just made so people can have fun Mr. Caps Lock?
That is not what I fucking said. I said that the purpose of a video game is to have fun. This is not the same fucking thing.

>the same "thing" that moves writers, musicians, artists and so, that compels them to this way of expressing themselves, it also happens to game devs
Except everyone who has ever lived has expressed themselves in one way or another

>>1459233
So you're basically saying that everything is art?

>>1459209
Really not. It's a fundamental problem, nothing has overturned it.

>>1459232
that is not a video-game, that is a training program. They are not playing video-games, they are training.

>>1459232

I like Iraq(TM) better than Afghanistan(TM). The latter is just too boring. No big cities.

>>1459237
>It's a fundamental problem, nothing has overturned it
it's a pseudo-problem, it doesn't have to be overturned
again, 70 years of analytic work

>>1459234
no

IT'S LIKE I'M TALKING WITH A WALL

>you're still discussing this
Video games are for sweaty sausage monsters, none of you are exempt from this after posting ITT

>>1459238
They are training using video games. It's really quite simple. Some of it isn't even training, it's simulation and exploration.

>>1459253
>Video games are for sweaty sausage monsters
Not true I am a teen model and I just played 2 hours worth of New Vegas.

>>1459013
Today I have eradicated the insect people who had stolen the sun in diablo 2 and lead my blond amazon further to the exterminate the devilkin from the east. In the first act I had to punish a whole convent of nuns who were lead astray by a big naked lady with poisonous breath. Diablo puts all Wagner operas in shade. Computer games are the motherfucking Gesamtkunstwerk!

>>1459246
It's cool, I'll just wait till next semester when you'll have been told to read something that tells you that's bull.

>>1459255
>They are training using video games. It's really quite simple
Ignoring the fact that you're ignoring the fact that it's a training program, this really does not challenge any point I've made in the least. I could study for my exams or lift weights using video-games and it would not change for a single moment the fact that the purpose of video-games is to have fun.

>>1459257
you are a boareo is what you are
>computer games
that's even worse

>>1459259

>>1459259
I'll just wait for another twenty years until you've read the material I've read that tells me what I've read which tells you what you've read is bull is bull

I mean c'mon you ignorant scum charlatan, name one contemporary philosopher who has given a single convincing argument for platonism

>>1459260
The purpose of the exercise is to prepare them, one way or another, for a combat situation without being in a combat situation. It's a similar role to role playing or Theatre of the Oppressed; to explore. The aim is not to have fun, though that may be a biproduct. And that is not to say the aim is never to have fun, but it is not always to have fun.

>>1459234
TV Soaps are art because they are imitated irl. Games today are too banal.

>>1459274
The real question is: Can you give me one philosopher who has criticized it in such a way as to invalidate my original statement?

>>1459282
>It's a similar role to role playing or Theatre of the Oppressed
But we're not talking about role-playing or Theatre of the Oppressed, we're talking straight-up about video-games. When people play video-games, I.E. not training programs, it isn't to "explore"; it's to have fun. You are simply saying things which have nothing to do with playing video games; i'm not playing video-games if a) I'm using it as a training simulation b)studying my exams with it c)lifting weights with it

>>1459305
you should die over not having read aristotle.

>>1459300
Aristotle, Wittgenstein, Ayer, Quine, Kripke, James, Derrida, the list goes on

If you try this shit where you defer answering one more time you can go fuck yourself as far as relpying is concerning, the only reason I entertained your bullshit this time is to show off to everyone how smart I am

>>1459312
Everything I have said so far is coherent and correct.

>>1459314
but aren't the people here subhuman scum who would never understand your brilliance?

>>1459321
I like the sound of my own voice

>>1459326
then just talk to yourself, idiot

>>1459330
It wouldn't be the same without being surrounded by a dumbfounded audience

>>1459305
A rather simple interpretation of what you've said would lead me to believe you think to be a video game, it must be fun (something which is not implied in name, or use, or form). However, I think the real problem here is this idea of play; if it is serious training, it cannot be fun, and if it cannot be fun, it cannot be play, if it isn't play, it is not a game. This is, of course, wrong. Play is fundamentally exploratory, but not necessarily fun, as Boal would tell you.

>>1459314
>It's because you've attempted first to define something new called Art, rather than recognise that Art already exists, and that any definitions are merely an imperfect description that you're getting into trouble.
None of those people would disagree with the above statement. If anything, they would support such a statement.

>>1459338
>think to be a video game, it must be fun
its purpose is separate to what it is

>Play is fundamentally exploratory
There is nothing exploratory about the act of playing a video-game, there is nothing exploratory about, for example. headshotting someone in counter-strike for the 20th time, or jumping over a gap in super mario. Or even in normal games such as football when you score a goal. None of this is exploratory, unless you'd like to elaborate exactly what is implied by the term 'exploratory'

>but not necessarily fun
that is what we call 'work'

>>1459344
Fuck off you posturing shitbird, they would all piss on your narrow-minded bullshit

okay guys this was a pretty good thread, gotta admit deep&edgy, whoops oo err i mean sagltoee, really trolled us good
<.<
>.>

>>1459364
>there is nothing exploratory about, for example. headshotting someone in counter-strike for the 20th time, or jumping over a gap in super mario.
There is in as much as writing a paper or a thesis is exploratory (play in terms of collecting and achievements is very similar to academia). Even in as much as interacting with the world is; the action has some consequence. This simplification also cannot answer why people continue to play a game despite being frustrated.
>Mindset of work vs fun
Okay, come back after you've finished living in the mindset of a late-Victorian capitalist.

>>1459424
*This simplification = The play simplification

>>1459424
>There is in as much as writing a paper or a thesis
Again, that is completely different to the act of playing a video-game

I would like to know what the fuck type of papers you are writing bro because every paper I have written has been a matter of work

Again, we are not talking about academia or that whatever amount of people happen to enjoy their essays. I enjoy some of the dumps I take sometimes, the play of shitting you might say, play in terms of digesting and excreting, but there is nothing exploratory about this. we are talking specifically about the act of playing a video game.

>Even in as much as interacting with the world is; the action has some consequence
aaaand for some reason, some arbitrary truism tossed in for no apparent reason

>this simplification also cannot answer why people continue to play a game despite being frustrated.
frustrated /=/ not having fun. Challenge is often intrinsic to the possibility of having fun in the first place. It's a very obvious Freudian tenet that you need to be frustrated in your desires if you don't want to end up bored to death and killing yourself.

>come back after you've finished living in the mindset of a late-Victorian capitalist.
It's a very simple dichotomy and it has nothing to do with capitalism

bump

Great thread Stagolee. Good job.

>>1459474

i <3 you, D&E. As much as I would probably (ineffectually) disagree with you on various things, your capacity for exhibiting a clear intellect is very admirable. (Not beautiful, which might be the source of your forlornness, but admirable :).

God damn it, /lit/, get it together.

>>1459474
>>1459473
Play vs work is everything to do with a capitalist mindset. Look it up.

Desires =! Having fun (what were you trying to say then originally? That your aims are your desires? That's seriously insightful)

The act of play is part of playing a video game. So to look at what playing a video game is, we must look at what play is. This is very simple, I don't see where you're having a problem picking up on this.
Writing an essay or paper means looking for sources, being assessed, having a sense of progression, exploring opinions, talking to others about the paper also (the act of writing a paper exists in a social space). All these things are analogous to video games; you are assessed in video games by your score, you progress through various levels, you talk to others about a solution or play the game with them, and with emergent gameplay with no clear solution there is the act of exploring opinions or strategies.
The most interesting though, is collecting information, whether it be sources or whatever. This is perhaps the most striking similarity; this drive to collect, in games manifested as objects or facts or even points.

inb4 You still don't understand and write another poor attempt at argument.

>>1459364
>Fuck off you posturing shitbird, they would all piss on your narrow-minded bullshit
No they wouldn't. They'd have asked a different question, but that doesn't change anything.

>>1459537
>Desires =! Having
frustrated /=/ not having fun, srsly bro I am not interested in whatever else you are trying to push into my mouth

>The act of play is part of playing a video game
Play is not an act. "Playing" (which is a stupid word to use, we should be referring to pressing buttons and watching screens) a video-game is an act, kicking a football is an act, writing an essay is an act. Then there is the abstract notion of play you are stamping down on each of these things.
>we must look at what play is
No, because then we are getting away from the act.

>Writing an essay or paper means looking for sources, being assessed, having a sense of progression, exploring opinions, talking to others about the paper also (the act of writing a paper exists in a social space)
No, this is not the act of writing an essay. The act of writing an essay itself is neurons firing and muscular action to press on keys or a pencil.

>All these things are analogous to video games
Everything is analogous to something else in whatever way, what is at stake is the strength of your analogy, which I am contending is pretty weak

>you are assessed in video games by your score
This has nothing to do with the ACT of playing a video-game

>you progress through various levels
This again, has nothing to do with the ACT

>you talk to others about a solution or play the game with them
see above

>emergent gameplay
there is no such thing as "emergent" gameplay. It is one of those buzzwords people like to throw around for hype. All gameplay is pretty much pre-defined and so on.

>this drive to collect, in games manifested as objects or facts or even points.
okay bro that is a weird way to say, "to have fun", which is what someone is doing when they "collect"

>inb4 You still don't understand and write another poor attempt at argument.
spare me the lame occupatio

>>1459577
>They'd have asked a different question, but that doesn't change anything.
lol, at least one of them would have told you to stop being such a fucking moron and stop asking the question

bonus points to the people who guess which one this is

>>1459473
>I enjoy some of the dumps I take sometimes

Only when they happen to be as girthy as your dildo, eh, D+E?

>>1459616

>>1459600
You're starting to focus more and more on what you want the words to mean in the language game. Aside from that, you're spouting off on things you don't understand; there is, for example, no emergent gameplay in an adventure game. That is no more a buzzword that active or passive when describing voice.

I'm bored now, talking to a pedantic aspie does that I guess.

>>1459610
None of them would have. You do know they're not your buddies, right?

>>1459621
>You're starting to focus more and more on what you want the words to mean in the language game
I like how you throw in the notion of language games to somehow imply the terms we're using aren't perfectly fine to use within this specific language game and that I am somehow in the wrong for pointing out how you're misusing them within this particular game

>you're spouting off on things you don't understand; there is, for example, no emergent gameplay in an adventure game
THERE IS NO EMERGENT GAMEPLAY IN ANYTHING YOU FUCKING HALFWIT, AS I HAVE ALREADY SAID

>That is no more a buzzword that active or passive when describing voice
mouthfarting to save your already completely desolated ass

>I'm bored now, talking to a pedantic aspie does that I guess.
Getting shit on repeatedly over the course of twenty posts has that effect also

>>1459628
Whatever, disgusting subhuman; I'm going to lol at your dumb shit now for my own pleasure

Goddamn.

Deep&Edgy is always fucking here! When does the ugly fucker sleep?

>>1459639
Do you think "language game" means "It means what I want it to mean"? If play is not an "act", what does an actor do? Rest of the stuff, go look it up, it's not hard.

I look forward to the next post where you go full retard.

>>1459643
It's interesting how the frog at the bottom of the well thinks he is master of everything.

>>1459651
>do you think "language game" means "It means what I want it to mean"?
That is not what I said nor what I implied. You are mouthfarting some more to buy yourself responses.

>If play is not an "act", what does an actor do?
An actor stands on the stage and moves his muscles, speech and movement

>Rest of the stuff, go look it up, it's not hard.
How about you go fuck yourself come up with actual responses instead of fallacies

>I look forward to the next post where you go full retard.
I look forward to the next shitty piece of occupatio you spew out in between your tears of butthurt

>>1459659

>>1459670
>An actor stands on the stage and moves his muscles, speech and movement
Yet a child understands what it is to act, to play a role, to pretend. A child would understand what is meant by the term "play" as I have used it. You, however, seem unable to, wanting to reduce it for some reason to individual elements. That's up to you I guess, but it's kinda dumb.

>>1459649
people rejected from the rl society seem all to flock to 4chan's /lit/, but rather then learning to apply playful mock-reason, which is the very point of all discussion about life, god, the universe and everything, they desperately try to become the center of attention by acting like an utter ape. I wonder if a ban on all the tripfag could cure cancer.

>Oblivion
>not art

>>1459685
>Yet a child understands what it is to act, to play a role, to pretend. A child would understand what is meant by the term "play" as I have used it.
Meaning =! use, nor are ostensive definitions adequate, you stupid fucking one-trick pony. The child understands behaviour, nothing more. And behaviour doesn't fully account for meaning.

>You, however, seem unable to, wanting to reduce it for some reason to individual elements
No, I just don't prescribe to shitty underdeveloped theories of meaning.

>>1459705
GODDAMNSHUTTHEFUCKUP IM THE BEST IM NOT REJECTED AND I DONT CRY AFTER I MASTURBATE

SHUTUP

>>1459718
lol, now you're applying the language game you learnt when discussing language games. "Mean" doesn't mean the mean you think it means.

And you are prescribing to shitty underdeveloped theories of meaning, if you think a description of speech and movement would tell us what it is to act or play.

>>1459649
people rejected from the rl society seem all to flock to 4chan's /lit/, but rather then learning to apply playful mock-reason, which is the very point of all discussions about the universe and everything, they desperately try to draw the center of attention to themselves by acting like an utter ape.

There is a scene in Dosto's man from the underground that teaches you how to handle trolls. I'm leaving to the brothel, y'all!

>>1459728
>lol, now you're applying the language game you learnt when discussing language games
No shit, this is all that ever happens

>"Mean" doesn't mean the mean you think it means.
More inane mouthfarting, that is a lovely way to say "NO YOUR WRONG" bro

>if you think a description of speech and movement would tell us what it is to act or play.
I have nowhere said or implied that

>>1459731
>playful mock-reason
stupid fucking nigger, there is absolutely no other type of reason

>>1459733
>I have nowhere said or implied that
>>If play is not an "act", what does an actor do?
>An actor stands on the stage and moves his muscles, speech and movement
This is how you would define an actor, simply by his place, movement and speech. However, such a reductionist approach is idiotic.

But keep trying to apply that shit you just learnt about in class to a discussion that has nothing to do with it.

a ban on tripfags could cure cancer

>>1459745
>what does an actor do?
>An actor stands on the stage and moves his muscles, speech and movement

>This is how you would define an actor, simply by his place, movement and speech
>define
>what does an actor do
>define
>what does an actor do
>define
Put some more words in my mouth bro. you asked me what an actor does and I told you. I didn't define anything.

>But keep trying to apply that shit you just learnt about in class to a discussion that has nothing to do with it.
Keep trying to shovel your shit into my mouth, I will still keep lol'ing

d&e don't you have anything else to do

>>1459754
Define is a perfectly acceptable word to use there. You made a claim about what an actor does, that should contribute to the definition of an actor, however you failed to do so, the actions being so obtuse as to be meaningless.

>>1459769
>Define is a perfectly acceptable word to use there. You made a claim about what an actor does, that should contribute to the definition of an actor,
I don't give a shit about your woeful account of definitions.

>the actions being so obtuse as to be meaningless
they are exactly what any actor ever has done

>>1459754
>If play is not an "act", what does an actor do?
Both are required to parse the sentence appropriately. You claim that playing is not an act, if it cannot be said an actor "acts", then what does an actor do? This is clearly saying that, if the word "act" is invalid to describe this particular behaviour, what can we call this behaviour that the actor does?

>>1459775
>account
That's not the right word.

It's not that certain games are or aren't. They just all are.

>>1459760
D&E will NEVER have anything else to do, for the rest of sad, sad life.

>>1459786
>You claim that playing is not an act, if it cannot be said an actor "acts", then what does an actor do? This is clearly saying that, if the word "act" is invalid to describe this particular behaviour, what can we call this behaviour that the actor does?
again, you are simply "playing" (if you will forgive the pun) on the ambiguity of the word 'act' much as you are in the case of the word 'play'. 'Play' is not an act. It is an abstract notion.

>what does an actor do?
he stands on a stage and moves his muscles, speech and movement

>You claim that playing is not an act
Playing is not an act, it is the shorthand language used to reference the act. Playing itself is not the act.

>This is clearly saying that, if the word "act" is invalid to describe this particular behaviour
I have never said that

>what can we call this behaviour that the actor does?
call it whatever the fuck you want for all I care

>>1459808
How has the ambiguity of the word act been played upon (apart from by you)?
>>1459364
You seem to have introduced it. That's kinda retarded.

The verbs play and are even synonyms, which is what I'm getting at. "Putting on an act" is referring to an abstract notion, and is related to the verb.

>>1459830
>You claim that playing is not an act, if it cannot be said an actor "acts", then what does an actor do?
>>How has the ambiguity of the word act been played upon (apart from by you)?
Because you're misconstruing what I'm talking about when I say 'act' in order to say that I'm implying an 'actor' cannot act

>You seem to have introduced it. That's kinda retarded.
God only knows what the hell this is referring to. I don't even give a shit because it's bare assertion.

> The verbs play and are even synonyms, which is what I'm getting at. "Putting on an act" is referring to an abstract notion, and is related to the verb.
So fucking what, what does any of that have to do with anything anyone has said in this thread. stop shitting out general statements in order to buy yourself breathing space you fucking chimp

>>1459843
From >>1459364
>There is nothing exploratory about the act of playing a video-game
>the act of playing
Your own words. I'm misconstruing nothing; I have no deficiency in my argument to hide. You however are unable to make and follow even simple points, and seem to want to wallow in petty discussion over the use of a word.

Now, to return to the original point, play is about exploration, not fun. The act of playing a video game, and the act of play in general show this.

>>1459860
>Your own words
and I stand by them. Playing is not an act.

>I'm misconstruing nothing
From your perspective of course you aren't, but that is simply because you are a chimp

>petty discussion over the use of a word
This is all any argument ever amounts to

>play is about exploration
No it is not, not least of which because not all play is exploration, i.e. see my shitting example
>not fun
This is the only thing that distinguishes work from play

>The act of playing a video game, and the act of play in general show this
That is what you are taking them to show

>>1459872
>Unable to make an argument
>Just lie
>yfw
Meh. I don't see what the point of you discussing this was for you then. If it was just about being right, well, you failed pretty hard at that.

yes but none really are yet. much as i love it, even silent hill 2 is barely even as highbrow as palahniuk

>>1459885
What about Facade?

This is the closest you can get to a book in a videogame

>>1459882
>Just lie
I'd like you to point out exactly where I have lied. Otherwise I will simply take you to have spewed defeatist rhetoric horseshit out of your mouth

>>1459894

LOL I can't take you serious anymore.

>>1459894
>the act of playing
>playing is not an act
>the act of playing
>playing is not an act
>the act of playing
>playing is not an act
>the act of playing
>playing is not an act
>the act of playing
>playing is not an act
>the act of playing
>playing is not an act
>the act of playing
>playing is not an act

>>1459893
Mother and Earthbound were better than a lot of books, and more interesting.

You could argue that the graphics, character models, and environments are art, but a game is more than just graphics.

You could argue that the music in the game is art, but there are games that don't use music.

You could argue that the story within the game is art, but there are plenty of games that have no real story.

So what it comes down to is what all games have in common: Gameplay.

In my opinion, art is something that leaves an emotional impact on you.
I've played games that have had my heart racing faster than any book or movie had ever done, I've played games that have frustrated me beyond comprehension, i've played games where events have made chills run up and down my back.

In my opinion, Video Games are art.

>>1459897
Playing itself is not an act
The act of playing is the act

Where's the problem, besides your myopia?

>>1459889

oh yeah, facade was pretty cool actually, i guess that was art

>>1459906
>>The act of play is part of playing a video game
>Play is not an act.
From:
>>1459600
You've spewed so much bullshit ITT, it's like your arguing with yourself now.

>>1459906
This guy really is a boring loser.

>>1459909
The creators were careful of calling it a video game though, calling it an interactive story I think. But it tends to get thought of as a game. I would call it one.

>>1459910
>"Playing"
You'll note the parentheses which were in the original post as well, I wasn't using the word sincerely or as part of my argument. Nice try tho brah.

>it's like your arguing with yourself now
This is all arguing

>>1459924
I mean quotation marks lololo

>>1459924
>You'll note the parentheses which were in the original post
What are you trying to say with this? Everything is a straight copy and paste from your posts.

>>1459939
>Everything is a straight copy and paste from your posts.
No it is not. I mean, are you going somewhere with this besides shitting out your mouth some more?

>>1459964
I like how it's copying and pasting from your own posts, and now it's "shitting out of your mouth".
That sums you up very well D&E. Very insightful comment into your own work.

U Mad?

>>1459983
So you're not going anywhere with this. Lemme yawn some more.

Hey, y'all!

I heard y'all got one-a dem faggots callin' hisself--what's it, now--Deep Nedgy? Man, I jus' love gettin' a eyeful of dem swishy queers doin' all that girly, gay shit. Make me laugh like crazy; I swar to Gaud it does. Y'know, back in grandpappy's day they'd just lynch dem sumbitches. Whenever they seen some perfumed faggy boy, well, dey'd get right down and noose the sodomite!

>>1459989
>yfw it's your bedtime again

>>1459998
It actually is tho. Goodnight.

I am the best.

Why is this thread still here, you horrible faggots.

i didnt quite follow this one.

So what was the answer to the OP and why?

>>1460061

no. no. no, TY. that's the answer...as a general rule:

"Film will only become art when its materials are as inexpensive as pencil and paper."

Jean Cocteau

this being said...certain things transcend their mediums...these things are ART---regardless of cost or process.

>>1460075
The older style video games, and some new ones like Facade are art then. They are/were made in small teams at little cost.

Stag, you bitch. Why don't you fuck off, you attention-whore? Honestly. This is not /v/. We don't give a fuck about vidya and we don't give a fuck about you.

>>1460087

you are correct. as are hezog, godard, et al films... these are the exceptions i spoke of.

>>1460088
If I'm an attention whore for making threads then so is all of Anonymous

>>1460090
Cool!

>>1460090
Godard is mostly a pretentious twit. Please don't compare him to Herzog.

>>1459740
way to prove my point. You are a sad, sad panda.

>>1460351
Say what you will of Godard but that doesn't change the fact that history will look kindly upon his work

western rpgs are cultural poison. take the fallout series: one of the first rpg series to promote the illusion and thus the "value" of free choice aka capitalism. the majority of the choices in the genre are between actions that are obviously either heroic or evil. this leads to a culture of babies who cannot comprehend any ethical complexities. aka conservatives. oh and its set in the apocalypse. nice one.

>>1460362
free choice in capitalism? cracker! you must be trolling!

>>1460362
>culture of babies who cannot comprehend any ethical complexities. aka conservatives
say what

>>1460362
Meh, on the one hand I agree (I would like things to be a little more refined and thought out), but is it the role of media to challenge us?

Actually, now I've written that, I agree with you. Worthwhile Art must realise it's social context.

>>1460367
I'm not saying it has to be too didactic, but yeah it should realise it's social context

>>1460367
I, for one, prefer Wilde to Stalin era propaganda.

>>1460362
I'm gonna play Fallout: New Vegas when I get home, and I'm going to have fun doing it. Enjoy being angry.

>>1460376
The problem with propaganda is that it doesn't challenge people, it tries to enforce the status quo, like trite that's made to turn a profit. I suppose that's part of being socially aware.

>>1460389
Why would there be propaganda if the status quo was fine? Blame Goebbels for this word being so terribly loaded. The Russian 19th century social democrat Plekhanov defined it as the propagation of complex ideas into educated society while Agitation is it's little retard brother.

That said art isn't ought to propagate anything or change any conception nor is it ought to enlighten the locuter about the actual state of affairs as envisioned by the artist or his boss.

>>1460402
Okay, I follow you now. And agree.
>>1460404
This is true, but it's important that it have, on some level, some kind of sophistication. Frankly, it's kinda insulting when it doesn't

>>1460409
Why would the simple things (pulp fiction, jazz music, hero driven rpgs) be so popular? Are the masses masochists? There is an incredibly complex rpg called "UnReal". It simulates the life of a hunter-gatherer and, eventually, that of his family and tribe in medieval finland. There is an incredibly complex and realistic space exploration game called noctis. If only those games are not as insulting why do they only attract a dozen of astronomers and anthorpologists? why aren't they popular at all if the rest is supposedly so insulting? do you have a good, reasonably sophisticated, game in mind?

>>1460421
>simple things (pulp fiction, jazz music, hero driven rpgs)
>simple things
>jazz
Uh... what?

Anyway, I'm with Socrates, just because something is popular doesn't mean it's good. It's important for us to reflect and think about why we think certain things, to be challenged.

>>1458930
>Plus the graphics are some of the worst I've ever seen for a computer game.

Bitches don't know bout mah 40000 game mods

>>1460432
>Uh... what?
It's the classical example given by Adorno. Back in the 30s jazz music was pop music. Saying that true art is ought to be unpopular is false logic just as well. The Ancient Roman essayist Terentius claimed that true art is everything the common slave and peasant cannot understand.
>Socrates
didn't he want to have the artists banned from his ideal state because they would distract it's citizens from science and philosophy and reason?

>>1460460
they do not make the graphics any better. it's strange that internet people claim the elder games with walls of text (baldur's gate, morrowind, fallout and planescape torment) had somehow more depth. Every person of taste will see the texts were worse than that of an average pulp and it's not that player had any choice. the games were incredibly steamlined. does all fermented shit look like gold through nostalgia glasses?

>>1460465
*fuck, it was Loginus, not Terence. My excuses

>>1460465
You've read Plato's Republic literally I see. Considering Socrates was probably a sculptor, and Plato himself was an artist, you shouldn't take that at face value. The most interesting and compelling interpretation I've heard is that Plato is questioning whether the is an ethics of Art; whether some Art is more appropriate to produce. It's been a while since I've looked at that though..

>>1460474
nobody ever has any real free choice in a video game, the problem is how those games address the issue of being "open ended" etc..

>>1460465
>>1460480
Oh and not saying if it's popular it's bad, just if it reinforces the status quo, and that popularity =! good. Jazz music certainly did this; many black musicians played venues they themselves wouldn't have been allowed in, bebop challenged music sacrificing everything but raw melody (or even texture, really).

>>1460474
>they do not make the graphics any better.

DERP

>>1460485
That depends on what you mean by choice. It's possible, for example, to get through the whole of Deus Ex without killing anybody. This wasn't originally intended, but came out of emergent gameplay

>>1460485
>nobody ever has any real free choice in a video game,

how does that preclude its artistic merit? If that is the criteria for art, then the only novels which are artistic are Fighting Fantasy books.

>>1460493
That still doesn't give you any real choice. The only real novels would be what you've written yourself.

>>1460489
yeah but look at something like "killer 7" or "psychic detective"

both games are extremely streamlined but are totally awesome and honest about the limitations of the gameplay

>>1460356

Way to be a stupid nigger with no point.

>>1460496
Monkey Island is fantastic and gives you 0 choice.

>>1460009
>>1460500
>Sleep for 5 hours
>Back on 4chan

>>1460495
ok so we can establish then that your point is of no value then, and only indicates an adolescent solipsism. That's fine, so long as I know.

>>1460496
what I'm saying is the only "choice" you make in a video game is whether or not to play it, anything else is fair game.. I don't see the point in having some multiple choice fallout game that simulates free choice after you've already made the decision to play it

>>1460509
Oh, I'm not the guy you're arguing with, I just thought you hadn't taken the comparison far enough.

>>1460510
You mean whether there's choice in the game is unimportant to whether it's art, or are you saying that all choice in the game is predetermined due to rules?

I don't agree with the second option, since most games have little things that players have taken advantage of in unexpected ways.

>>1460518
yeah but those little things, glitches etc, are still predetermined by the programming of the game

>>1460523
Just like how literally everythign is predetermined by the physical laws of the universe, isn't that right. Three is no emergent reality

JARED LOUGHNER POSTING ITT

>>1460526
I'm just saying, the ability to affect the outcome of a video game has nothing to do with it being "art"..

>>1460523
Well, yes and no. Assuming a perfect system and programming, with no mods and one player, then yes but like any chaotic system, complex behaviours come out of simple rules.

However, modding is common and a part of the way people play these games. There's a massive social aspect to games too which is very important for multiplayer games.

>>1460480
I do see how it is supposed to be eironic. Plato/Socrate claim that reciting Ulysses will bring people to rage and tears while it's author, certainly being smart and sophisticated, couldn't have known everything which is why the emotions stirred by his work are not reasonable.
Enter Aristotle who claims that even unreasonble emotions are fine since they purge your stocks of rage and anger curing you back into reason. But to Aristotle it was irelevant wether your emotions were stirred by Guilherme Figueiredo's slave/artist Esopo or by the ancient demon Dargoth Ur or threatens to destroy the world of Morrowind.
In his poetics he claims writing something about well known myth or about history is good, since popular, but modern markets have proven him wrong, have they not?
>>1460500
The point is that tripfags generally have little interest in the discussion trying instead stir everyone's attention to their presumably great persona. You are barely coherent, you clunch yourself into words and drop badges that are supposedly supposed to be offensive to the people of the USA. (Isn't 'nigers' how the blacks were called in your late 19th century South?) Ofcourse it makes you seem to be a pitiful and lonely person. Schopenhauer and Orwell had both published wonderful manual on decent style which I strongly endorse you to look up.

>>1460539
>The point is that tripfags generally have little interest in the discussion trying instead stir everyone's attention to their presumably great persona
good luck assuming what you haven't proven

>You are barely coherent, you clunch yourself into words and drop badges that are supposedly supposed to be offensive to the people of the USA.
I am entirely coherent
Like I give a shit how you take whatever I've written
>Ofcourse it makes you seem to be a pitiful and lonely person
It makes you seem like a nigger spic gook faggot

>Schopenhauer and Orwell had both published wonderful manual on decent style which I strongly endorse you to look up.
been there done that, what the fuck makes you think I'm obliged to give you anything more than the stylistic shit off my boot

>>1460539
I did hear a very interesting perspective from a classics lecturer last year on the whole Plato's view of art, but I really can't remember it now.

In fact, just looked for it and found it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2nE1brhdaM

why are you guys so mad.

>>1460539
>In his poetics he claims writing something about well known myth or about history is good, since popular, but modern markets have proven him wrong, have they not?
I haven't read the Poetics in about 4 years, but if I remember correctly, Aristotle champions the Tragedy over the Epic, despite the Epic being more popular. So I'm wary of what good means there. Also, modern markets can be misleading, as can terms like myth and history.

So I dunno.

Depends on the video game.

i don't think a video games would be a good video game if it was art, probably boring as shit.

>>1460618
They're boring as shit anyway.

>>1460618
exactly. for example: The Void

>>1460620
i kind of agree but i was playing minecraft for like an hour or two last night, it's pretty fun. What do you do instead for entertainment? i think i do 4chan.

>>1460624
I lie in a sensory deprivation tank until I hallucinate and escape this shitty reality.

>not lit thread
>230 posts and 34 image replies omitted.
Stay classy, /lit/

>>1460633
it's mostly d&e and one other retard's fault to be fair

>>1460638
>one other retard
i've seen anonymous say some smart things from time-to-time actually...

>>1460645
haha yeah because Anonymous is only one person what an amusing and original observation

>>1460656
The majority of Anon's posts are patently and characteristically idiotic so that would not be an unfair assumption

If 2001: A Space Odyssey can be considered art, if the Mona Lisa can be considered art, if Beethoven's 5th Symphony can be considered art, if Homer's Odyssey can be considered art, then by gosh golly I think that a very limited number of video games may also fall into this impossible-to-define category of "art".

It is my personal opinion that System Shock 2 is the closest video games ever went to being considered "art", whatever that really means. It had a truly interesting and original story, with some of the greatest presentation ever to be on a screen, while keeping the gameplay fun (which, in the end, is the most important goal of a video game). Where books use imagery to allow the audience's imagination to transport them into the place of the story, games use graphics and sound. In that respect, I believe System Shock 2 excelled excellently at immersing the player inside its world and terrifying them thereby.

>>1460683
Immersiveness has nothing to do with art.

>>1460694
Entertaining that you're the reigning emperor of what is and isn't artistic, I wasn't saying that immersiveness is necessarily a quality which makes something art. I was merely quoting an example of what many people would consider art - literature. A prominent technique used in literature and one that, if used efficiently, will greatly enhance any piece's worth is imagery. As I understand it, imagery refers to the use of descriptive language to stimulate a reader's senses in order to create greater depth and generate a certain atmosphere within any given story. Comparatively, in video games there are graphics/sounds.

The video game in question, System Shock 2, touches upon a few philosophical issues in its story such as sentience and immortality (with the Artificial Intelligence SHODAN). If I recall correctly, most works of art attempt to convey meaningful messages to their audiences.

What I'm trying to do is make logical connections between certain video games and other more accepted forms of art, in order to show that it's entirely possible that some may be considered "art".

The game called Pathologic has novel-scale storyline and, symbolical and meaningful dialogues.
But people still prefer Call of Duty.

Thing is that video games and art have different purposes. When i start a video game, i want my brain shut off, thats a point.

>>1460714
The sublime disagrees. The sublime, by its nature, cannot be imagined.

>>1460694
>immersiveness
surprised no one has said anything :p

>>1460726
>But people still prefer Call of Duty
i don't think being the most popular is a sign of doing something well but yeah trying to have a deep story is usually detrimental to the gameplay & then it just looks shallow compared to an actual novel's plot.

Why is this still going on? Video Games are what you play to procrastinate on projects not art. It like me throwing horse shit on the wal and saying I'm Dali.

>>1460747
Yeah, I wasn't sure... Immersiveness? Immersivity? Frankly, I have NO idea.

>>1459233
Every time I read one of your posts, I find myself hating you just a little bit more. Your entire way of posting show the insane degree of your social ineptitude. I try to imagine you in rean life and when I do, I picture a beardy weirdy loser..

>>1460757
Immersion :)

>>1460761
>Your entire way of posting show the insane degree of your social ineptitude
They are two entirely different ball games

>>1460766
...How could I be so stupid? Just one of those moments, I guess. I hate presque vu when it comes to rather obvious words. I once was trying to remember "placebo" for a week, then finally got it while on a bus and made myself look like an idiot from how relieved I was.

Immersiveness? Damn it!

>>1460761
>he tries to read d&e posts
see, dats your problem

>>1460773
haha yeah it's funny how people say shit like that as if they've ever actually socialized with an actual person

>>1460784
what's your age & major onionring?

>>1460788
That's something only someone without any friends would say.

Why all the needless hate and nonsensical arguing in here?

>>1460550
that is an amazing lecture. in my dorm i had a philosophy student shouting at me to turn it off because they apparently treat them with poetry-supplemented flavour of philosophy 101 every day.

point in case he "would have gladly" invited the poets back if he had "a fine argument" to. but i still think the interpration of a zhdanov and a cromwell is much closer to the truth since the last brutal tyrant of Athens was a patron of arts and a pupil of Socrates', Peisistratos. I would assume the late Socrates was trying to distance himself from his earlier views.
There would be no computer games in a Socratean utopia.
That lecture was only viewed a hundred times. where have you gotten it from? have you attended it live?
>>1460546
>good luck assuming what you haven't proven
but you did proof for me just now. You have devoted a whole post to yourself alone.

Yes. They can be art since any medium can be used for art. If it really is art is up to you, is Pong.. probably is machinema.. sure why not

>>1460798
>but you did proof for me just now. You have devoted a whole post to yourself alone.
More assuming what you have to prove lol

> Can video games be art?

> 253 posts and 35 image replies omitted. Click Reply to view.

... I refrain from my usual social commentary...

>>1460821
What is more sad is it was made my doppelganger stagolee.

Also, Plato was CHRONICALLY full of shit, from his method of argument to his ethics to his aesthetics to his ontology.

The elenchus is a wild goose chase.
His ethics are nothing more than a critique of one society's language game using a completely different language game with different values.

His aesthetics and ontology are the product of life-denying mechanisms that are unprovable, you need only look at the third man.

Never has there been such a deceiving cocksucker in western thought.

>>1460726
>The game called Pathologic has novel-scale storyline and, symbolical and meaningful dialogues.
But people still prefer Call of Duty.
For a game Pathologic as indeed immense depth and an amusing level of awareness of the medium presented by the crow guy and the mime but if it was novel, face it, it would be an incredibly shitty. dostoyevsky is fine, camus' plague is fine, vampire magic gypsies are fine as is call of cthulhu and lord of the flies is OK but it is just wrong to put it all in blender in an effort to convince even the dumbest indie game critic that this 've gotta be "art".
and mind that there is little to no gameplay. you are walking through a polygon wasteland doing chores for hours and hours.

>>1460791
no shit, but I was agreeing with you.

>>1460852
That's something only someone without any friends would misunderstand and agree with

>>1460828
>society's language game using a completely different language game with different values.
what kind of game? a tetris or a point and click adventure?

>dumb and aggressive nerds calling each other dumb and aggressive nerds ITT

>>1460860
well then I guess I understood it perfectly fine?

>>1460860
of course. you should know.

>>1460861
to understand D&Es rhetoric you need to know the rhetoric of analytic philosophy.

Its like talkin to a marxist. They speak their own fucking lingo.
Not that analytic philosophy and marxism have anything in common other than the formation of fanatic cadres...

>>1460821
>social commentary
send it to the "Social Text". It is a magazine devote to haphazard bullshit.

>>1460875
>to understand D&Es rhetoric you need to know the rhetoric of analytic philosophy.
just understanding autism works fine as well.

>>1460797
because it's a place for retards banhammered from real life for good

>>1460874
What you said is something, tho, that only a friendless friendster would say

>>1460891
you are a very exciting person. start a blog.

>>1460891
so what, you said this:

Gotta say man. I've seen you around and tried to be nice, supported you a little, said I wanted to read your MW2 fanfic, felt sorry for you when you said your life is sad and lonely and you just sit at home playing videogames and getting high.But you're also a fucking dick sometimes. I don't feel so sorry for you anymore. And I no longer want to read your stories. (I originally thought they were stories involving modern warfare... not Modern Warfare as in Call of Duty Modern Warfare).

>>1460798
Yep! I knew one of the guys who organised it and went along. I like the Ted talks too, so win all round. I'd read the republic years ago for some perspective of Aristotle's poetics, and that lecture was a series of "I missed so much" moments. Still haven't reread the Republic though...

>>1460875
This is not true. Analytic philosophers would still say he's full of shit.

>>1460892
>>1460897
lmao2friendless

>>1460947
>Analytic philosophers would still say he's full of shit.
That is not very helpful considering analytic philosophers are full of shit

>>1460964
start your own blog! GO!

d&e post "acuid"'s fanfic. i'll read it out in soap-voice on vocaroo if you do