/lit/ - Literature

Have these gems

>>14547586
>>14547591
You do realize Tolkien would absolutely hate these memes no matter what the allegory is about

"Are they men he has ruined or has he blended the races of orcs and men?"
― Treebeard[3]


"It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterward [...] Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile."

>>14547598
bollocks

>>14547598
>i know what a dead person would feel
yea sure you do

"The dwarves of course are quite obviously - wouldn't you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic obviously, constructed to be Semitic."
― J.R.R. Tolkien[5

Legend

>>14547607
>>14547621
>>Now goblins are cruel, wicked, and bad-hearted. They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones. They can tunnel and mine as well as any but the most skilled dwarves, when they take the trouble, though they are usually untidy and dirty. Hammers, axes, swords, daggers, pickaxes, tongs, and also instruments of torture, they make very well, or get other people to make to their design, prisoners and slaves that have to work till they die for want of air and light. It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them.

>>14547586
Do people that make this shit only watch the movies or just not read anything Tolkien ever wrote beyond cherry-picked stuff that validates racist opinions from /pol/?

>>14547611
It's unfortunate that /pol/ will never understand this genuinely conservative reactionary ethos and will continue to mirror the radical left on their infantile warpath of deconstructive post-modernism. "He hates SJWs just like me haha!" Absolutely pathetic.

>>14547621
I always saw the dwarves as being based on the Jews, it is especially clear in The Hobbit.

>>14547611
>tfw tolkien predicted the globohomo and despised it

>>14547640
Tolkien knew that culture is downstream of biology. It is just the way of things. Calm down, read some Darwin.

>>14547666
he was catholic, Satan

>>14547586

The only way we'll keep growth at 0.2% per quarter is signing infinite orcs into debt slavery in a giant pyramid scheme.

That is how we save the west according to boomers.

When I first read the Hobbit I saw that the dwarves were based onthe Jews almost immediately. The talk of a diaspora, the beards, the ethnocentrism. What clinched it was this quote, which seemms to me to escribe the Jews I have met very well:
>There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people…if you don’t expect too much.

>>14547641
it's beyond unfortunate, it's actually very depressing. I used to find these sort of ironies funny, not so funny anymore

>>14547641
I fucking despise the way they are attempting to claim Tolkien and middle-earth as "white people stories" no fuck off. Middle Earth is for everyone.

I want the new amazon series to cast loads of dark skinned people just to make the point

>>14547658
>>14548873
I agree but I think the Hobbits are a little Jewy as well- short, hairy and self-segregating like the dwarves, but also sneaky and covetous. probably a little inbred too.
Samwise is pure good though

I mean when the Reich inquired as to his lineage to determine if The Hobbit could be translated he made a big indignation about how great the Jews were and he would disavow his German ancestry if they kept resisting international capitalism. Then wrote Mordor as a metaphor for continental industrialization and effectively pro-war sentiment.

But yes brown people are smelly so based haha

>>14548975
>>14548941
>>14547783
>>14547641
>>14547640
>>14547598
>oy

>>14547621
>Thank you for your letter... I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware noone [sic] of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.
― Letter 30 (Tolkien's unsent response to his German publishers; a more neutral version was eventually sent)

>>14548975
nigger

>>14548975
well isn't the mythology of Middle Earth essentially a Frankenstein of European folklore? I'm not well read on Tolkien, and I'm not exactly arguing against you but I wouldn't consider it a stretch to call it "white people stories" in that case (not FOR whites, but a re-telling of whitey craic by a whitey)

>>14549016
You must be over 18 to post on this website

You know how you can describe someone as 'well-read'? Does 'well journeyed' work? or 'well travelled'?

>>14547611
This is more like anti-American hegemony

>>14547613
Tolkien hated allegories of any kind, he made it clear in introduction. He got visibly upset when people thought Mordor was supposed to be communists or nazis

For example he clearly got some inspirations from personal experiences in WW1 like war PTSD, but that doesn't mean Germans or Turks are Orcs.

>>14547613
he was an incredibly well read nerd who created multiple languages just to give his characters names more depth and symbolism. he would not have like memes full stop

>>14549016
>"I have the hatred of apartheid in my bones; and most of all I detest the segregation or separation of Language and Literature. I do not care which of them you think White."
― From a Valedictory Address to the University of Oxford in 1959

>"As for what you say or hint of ‘local’ conditions: I knew of them. I don't think they have much changed (even for the worse). I used to hear them discussed by my mother; and have ever since taken a special interest in that part of the world. The treatment of colour nearly always horrifies anyone going out from Britain, & not only in South Africa. Unfort[unately], not many retain that generous sentiment for long."
― Letter 61 — Written to Christopher Tolkien who was stationed in South Africa during World War II

>>14547586
>>14547591
>>14547607
>>14547687
>>14547962
>>14549016
>political allegories using Harry Potter or Star Wars
>cringe and Redditpilled
>political allegories using LOTR (the movies, not even the book)
>BASED AND REDPILLED
Explain yourselves, hypocrites.

>>14547641
They don't likely even read. Likely underage and just shitpost here to feel smart, deluding themselves that browsing pseudointellectual threads are somehow equivalent to reading classics. I mean just look at OP, he's clearly underage.

>>14549205
Especially since Tolkien hated allegories..

>>14549119
I hate you. I hate everyone who repeats this half understood canard of Tolkien hating allegories. You don't even rightly know where it's coming from, claiming it's in an introduction. It's in his letters where he explains why he dislikes allegory and what he means by allegory, which is an author imposed interpretation of the text, like how CS Lewis does with the Narnia series. He's not against people interpreting the text or making comparisons because that would be fucking stupid.

>>14549222
Oh yeah? I hate you more FAGGOT

Anyways he called that "application", not allegory

>>14547783
And the Papacy approved of Darwin's theory of evolution you degenerated mutt.

>>14549273
Papacy also condemns racism

>>14549278
Could your brain be any fucking smoother? You're the one that barfed an argumentum ab auctoritate on me, I'm not a fucking catholic.

>>14549296
And I'm not OP

>>14549446

>>14549446
>>14549453
These weren't even funny when they were new. This is some boomer conservative shit.

>>14549453

>>14549459
Calm down this is one of the few opportunities where I get to use my orcposting folder

>>14549446
>>14549453
LMAO

>>14548981
The hobbits are 100% a satire of Englishmen

>>14549273
retard modernist gtfo this is a board for authentic reactionaries

>>14549476

>>14549205
My split personalities are different people.

>>14549205
>equating Harry Potter or Star Wars to LOTR
The difference is that LOTR has relevant themes. Redditors try to draw moral lessons from Harry Potter and Star Wars because they're too stupid to realize that those are not didactic.

>>14549540
Tolkien has said multiple times that he hated racism

>>14547598
seething

>>14548975
>attempting to claim Tolkien and middle-earth as "white people stories"
They are. They were written by a white man who grew up in white society with themes based in white culture. This is not meant to be exclusionary, it is simply a fact that they are white stories. You are free to partake, as I partake in and appreciate the art of other races.
>cast loads of dark skinned people just to make the point
The point you're trying to make, no offense, is retarded. When you attempt to claim white art for yourself, you wear your racial insecurity on your sleeve and in essence confirm your own race's lack of relevant achievement. Unless in some strange happenstance you happen to be white, in which case you need help.
>>14549158
I feel like you're trying to make a point, yet I cannot discern it. Tolkien didn't believe in treating people differently based on the color of their skin. Perhaps you're the anon I replied to earlier in this post, given the chain. If so, you may be suggesting that this means that LOTR isn't white, or that Tolkien would approve of an inclusive Middle Earth. It in fact means the opposite.
Anti-racism (not "reverse-racism"), a product of the mental distinction between mind/spirit and body, is a uniquely Western and white phenomenon, seemingly arising from the influence of Christianity. In the rest of the world, racism is still the norm, whether it be in Africa, Asia, or the Middle East. This attitude presents itself in his fiction as the racially diverse fellowship. Inclusiveness is a white concept, and his work is heavily based in white spirituality.
Furthermore, Tolkien's opposition to preferential treatment based on color indicates that he would be disturbed by a politically-motivated motion to cast an adaptation of his work in a discriminatory fashion as described by the first anon I quote in this post.

>>14549793
>Tolkien has said multiple times that he hated racism
So does everyone else. This does not mean that comparing orange man to a tyrannical and genocidal space wizard (a fanciful caricature of evil) is the same as comparing an invasion to an invasion. I cannot fathom how you do not understand their disparity other than perhaps low IQ.

>>14549880
They're equally stupid

>>14547641
>this genuinely conservative reactionary ethos
I don't get it, really. He was opposing cultural homogenization? English is not my first language, so that letter was a bit ehhh to understand

>>14549888
How are they equally stupid? One of them is comparing two things which are actually comparable. This makes the other inherently more stupid.
Also, they're memes. Leftist idiots regularly and genuinely express that their young adult fiction and action movies have motivated them politically. The same cannot be said for right-wingers and LOTR, though LOTR is far more appropriate for ideological extrapolation.
These two things are not equal or close to it, and any claim to the contrary which does not counter these points is a Redditor cope.

>>14549467
Its so fucking sad that this is genuinely funny. Jesus Christ

>>14549991
Politics is gay

>>14549991
>though LOTR is far more appropriate for ideological extrapolation
Tolkien hated that

>>14549540
Orcposting is also a joke, it's using humor to highlight an issue. The people protesting Drumpf carrying signs saying "Dumbledore's Army" are deadly serious.
>Tolkien has said multiple times that he hated racism
You can be absolutely opposed to racism and still oppose immigration.

>>14550085
Yet OP is explicitly about race.

>>14547586
>you'll never be as good of a son as Christopher

>>14549998

>>14550085
They're both strawmen

>>14550125
Based autist posting simultaneously in /lit/ and /tv/

>>14549205
Please don't use Toho for arguing politics, regardless of intent.

>>14547586
>(to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types
Depends.

>>14550455
I rescind my comment. He was probably specifically talking about the ugly Mongoloids.

>>14547631
>If the Orcs had enough time and manpower they would've split the atom and brought Middle-Earth into the Atomic Age

my favourite

>>14549841
Why wouldn't you cast a lot of dark skinned people for a Tolkien adaptation, if the actors nailed the audition?

>>14550625
Well, they couldn't nail the audition if they weren't of European descent. My audition!

>>14550625
They can't nail it if they are non white. I mean, maybe you can cast some of the haradrim, but even those would probably make more sense arabs.
I hate when casting looks like modern day London or muttland when it's medieval fantasy and what's more, people in Middle Earth move about even less than they would naturally would, there are huge swats of uninhabited lands and people sometimes don't even know what's behind their borders.

>>14550969
I have a folder of these. It was fun when harry potter fags were mocked.

>>14550625
>nailed the audition
What does that even mean lol, we seriously need to stop this collective lie we all engage in pushing that "acting" is some kind of art or delicate craft. The Romans had it right I say, actors are one step removed from prostitutes.

There's no one on earth who is so "skilled at acting" (lmao) that you'll believe they're a member of another race

>>14549880
>muh invasion
>>>/r/the_donald
>>14549991
>The same cannot be said for right-wingers and LOTR
Varg
>>14550073
This

Tolkien was a Catholic reactionary, not a globohomo liberal or a racialist. You can't make a coherent and final argument for his pro- or anti-racism because both of these attitudes are present in his works.

From the First Age, we have Finrod Felagund and the houses of the Noldor accepting the Edain (refugees welcome!), a racist elf getting chased around and humiliated by Turin, and the crusade of the Spirit of Fire being put to shame by Beren & Luthien (yay race-mixing!)

Also from the First Age, we have the Easterlings slobbering over the women of the "strawhairs" in Dor-Lomin, the Eldar being referred to derisively as "the white ones" by Morgoth's forces, as well as the obvious, that the only righteous men, those of the WEST, looked like Europeans (woah Tolkien is based and redpilled!).

As you can see...contradictions everywhere! And beyond that, a horrifically superficial analysis. Have some rshame and stop trying to
claim a man who stood apart and alone >>14547611 even in day as being "one of us". People with Tolkien's politics have mostly passed on from the world

>>14551108

Catholic reactionaries are the majority of the modern right. There are entire nations of people just like Tolkien.

>>14551262
the majority of the modern right anywhere is liberals but from 30 years ago. and liberals are protestant rape babies

>>14549205
Because LOTR (the books rather than the films) are actual works of literature with relevant themes to modern society rather than franchises that exist only to provide escapism for children

>>14550625
>Why wouldn't you cast a hambeast as Aphrodite if she nailed the audition?

>>14549092
American hegemony is indistinguishable from globalist democratic liberal capitalism

>>14551309
>Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don’t we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we’re partisans of liberty, then it’s our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!

>>14549446
>>14549453
>>14549462
>>14549467
>>14549496
>>14550129
>>14550969
>>14550992
>all written by (((dwarfs)))

>>14550625
how well does a black person need to act exactly for the audience to actually think they're white

>>14551323
I never said that LOTR wasn’t escapist, my point is that it’s not only escapist, unlike Star Wars and Harry Potter

>>14551341
I know, it just reminded me of the quote.

>>14551309
>>14551341
>As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical.
Foreword to the second edition of The Lord of the Rings

>>14551427
>portrays industrialisation as disruptive to idyllic pastoral life
>nothing to see here
He may not have been totally conscious of it but he clearly did it

>>14551464
it's not allegorical though, it's depicted literally.

>>14547641
/pol/ doesnt consider itself reactionary or conservative. They consider themselves some kind of revolutionary, futurists who blend the natural order into post industrialism.
Well, I havent been on /pol/ in about a year, so I dont really know what the culture is there now.

>>14547962
>Harry Potter goblin instead of a dwarf
Ruined it