/lit/ - Literature

There is a country with only men in it?

Woah he's literally me

>>14502167
No matter how much you pay, niggers will always be niggers

The public education system in this country sucks no matter how much money you pour into it desu

>>14502167
the implication of this quote is that the american public school system fixes that problem

>>14502167
yessssss raise my taxes SLAYYY

>public schools
Big yikes thank god my parents werent poorfags

>>14502184
you'd think a writer would know the difference between ignorance and stupidity

>>14502167
Healthcare shouldn't be any different but burgers are brainwashed.

Mass education is trash

>>14502167
But if there weren’t stupid people who would buy his books?

is this guy ableist?

>>14502179
based

>>14502167
He's like Guy de Maupassant eating lunch under the Eiffel Tower.

>>14502235
what do you mean?

>school=smart
hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

>>14502167
>thinks school is for education

>>14502184

If it’s bad with schools imagine without them. Also, if something is not being extremely effective it can be improved rather than discarded.

>>14502273
He doesn't have to live alongside himself.

>>14502291
It would be better because there would be less self-inflated midwits and retards who think they are smart because they learned a couple of "facts" that they spew again and again and again.

>>14502300
Ha ha at you believing this.

>>14502300
How does that make up for a better society, though?

Kek like schools ever do anything useful with that money in this shit ass country

>>14502167
>he cares about future generations

>>14502167
Huh, I like a restrictive immigration policy and eugenics for exactly the same reason.

>>14502167
I think a eugenics program would do that a lot better.

>>14502291
>>14502291
>ohhhhhh nooooooo where are we gonna brainwash our youth and program them for the workforce now????

>>14502341
genetics doesn't determine that much

>>14502167
i just want to point out what a fucking moron you yourself have to be before you can even think something as fucking retarded as "education makes you smarter"
like holy shit i'd be amazed if this guy could walk and chew gum at the same time

>>14502351
Still useful since shit ass parents wont raise kids

>>14502167

I hate the presumption that one’s intelligence can be determined with a cursory look at their highest level of education. Intelligence is an innate quality, it cannot be augmented or cultivated by environmental factors to a significant degree.

>>14502351
Genetics accounts for about 50-60% of education outcome variance. School quality accounts for less than 5%
>>14502322
Same in Europe and for private schools. Student selection is everything for how well a school appears to be doing.

>>14502167
I dont like living in a country with John Green in it

>>14502356
Based

>>14502351
Are you retarded?

>>14502167
>I don't like living in a country with a bunch of stupid people.

So it is true, libs are the real racists.

>>14502366
He just meant educated. I'm sure he meant stupid meaning ignorant.

>>14502372
Yes, but only because of poor education.

>>14502367
>Genetics accounts for about 50-60% of education outcome variance. School quality accounts for less than 5%
Leaving metric aside, what makes you think that's a good argument? It's not a good pareto argument.

>>14502372
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ

>>14502370
baste

>>14502366
Most people wouldn't read anything if they weren't forced to
Genetic intelligence is a very real thing, but most of what we understand as intelligence is the repetitive process of trying to understand
If you never try to understand more than you currently do you are not intelligent

>>14502300
>things would be better if there were no schools because some people are Dunning-Kruger
easy on the retard juice man

>>14502389

Inelligence is highly correlated with curiosity, meaning that unintelligent people are less inclined to pursue a post-secondary education in the first place.
Knowledge is a byproduct and reflection of one’s intellectual aptitude as well. Ignoramuses will remain ignorant, despite his eagerness fund an optional route of study

>>14502393
>It's not a good pareto argument.
What do you mean? I think the value added by throwing money at schools is minimal, other than making student lives a bit cushier. A school teacher with a text book and a black board is as good as a school teacher in a fully interactive classroom. Most of the improvements in outcomes in pic related are simply due to selection effects.

People that seem to profess this view kind of see taxes as the end all be all of education for some reason, like it can be a step in the right direction but they never seem to elaborate on anything else

>>14502167
what's the context of this quote? was he arguing against people saying we shouldn't have tax funded schools?

>>14502190
you say that as if private schools are automatically better. here in the USA, many people send their kids to private school because they don’t have gangs there (usually)

as long as the money is being spent properly i’m more than happy to spend a lot on schools. better education means
>more smart people
>more writers to write good books i can read
>more doctors to advance medicare
>more scientists to find out more cool and useful stuff
>more socially aware population that will hopefully vote more responsibly, leading to a government that will actually represents everyone
seems pretty good to me

>>14502173
>>14502179
>>14502183
>>14502184
>>14502187
>>14502190
>>14502213
>>14502280
>>14502341
>>14502372
Dont care about this John Green guy but if he makes /pol/ seethe he seems to be somewhat on the right track.

Obviously they are still stupid after getting out of there since Trump was elected and now we need Facebook to fact check news articles because despite 12 years of school critical thinking just isn't possible for the common man.

We need eugenics, not schools.

>>14502589
true

>>14502167
What about a bunch of stupid niggers though?

>>14502472
You can't throw resources at innate unchangeable things like genetics and make them better, so in any Pareto based argument it's useless. It'd be like a company saying they lost a lot of efficiency or cash on having to fight gravity.

Remember that what shitlibs mean by education is better termed socialization.

>>14502589
doesn't make them wrong

>>14502742
Yes, the point was it does make them angery.

Americas weird with this since there are schools that are way overfunded yet still underperform and some really shittily funded ones that have acceptable passing rates. Its not just a muh black and white thing (though this is a factor)

>>14502589
That’s not seething

>>14502773

>>14502723
So instead we throw money at schools, because that's a lever we can change. Bill Gates tried that and achieved less than nothing.
People are concerned about the variance in outcome, so bringing up the cause of that variance IS important.

>>14502788
>we throw money at schools
No.

>People are concerned about the variance in outcome, so bringing up the cause of that variance IS important.
It's actually quite interesting here: because you have to do a natural experiment (you cannot change a variable and see what the effect it) you cannot ascribe cause and effect there.

>>14502343
>capitalism corrupts the purpose of public institutions, therefore we should privatize everything

>>14502801
>because you have to do a natural experiment (you cannot change a variable and see what the effect it) you cannot ascribe cause and effect there.
But you can. Achievement of non-identical twins in the same household but with 50% different genetics can be compared to identical twins - this is a natural experiment, you would expect non-identical twins to have half the correlation of identical twins, and they do. Children can have their genetic capability measured with polygenic scores and outcomes can be compared. Like you say, genes don't change, so a PGS at birth must be measuring something causal. You might argue that the genetic differences are causing something else - i.e. some sort of systematic population stratification, but that is attempted to be controlled for and validation is done in external samples and within family comparisons (i.e. predicting which sibling does better based on their PGS).

>>14502935
>you would expect non-identical twins to have half the correlation of identical twins, and they do.
No you wouldn't (whatever the fuck you think you mean by "half the correlation").

>Like you say, genes don't change, so a PGS at birth must be measuring something causal.
No, unfortunately you cannot finagle shit to make a causal link here.

>>14502960
>No you wouldn't (whatever the fuck you think you mean by "half the correlation").
Lol okay. Let me explain.
You have a bunch of identical twins who grow up in the same households, their grades (or IQ, or SAT score, or height, or whatever you want to measure), have a correlation of 0.8
If this was mostly genetics, you would expect two non-identical same sex twins to have half the correlation - 0.4, as they share 50% of their DNA. If, on the other hand, it was because they grew up in the same household and shared the same environment, you would expect their correlation to be closer to the identical twins, say 0.6. Therefore you can assign variance to the shared environment and to genes.
Pic related is a meta analysis looking at a whole bunch of different traits. On average, traits are 50% heritable and <20% due to the shared environment.
>No, unfortunately you cannot finagle shit to make a causal link here.
Keep pretending that. Same technique can predict your height at birth to within 10cm centimeters.

>>14503050
>If this was mostly genetics, you would expect two non-identical same sex twins to have half the correlation - 0.4, as they share 50% of their DNA. If, on the other hand, it was because they grew up in the same household and shared the same environment, you would expect their correlation to be closer to the identical twins, say 0.6.
There's too much wrong here to even begin, but I guess you mean R^2. It doesn't mean what you think it means, that's how much variance you can claim you can explain with the data. Genetic data as well has a high dimensionality so it's easy to get stupidly inflated R^2s with it.

>Keep pretending that. Same technique can predict your height at birth to within 10cm centimeters.
You absolutely cannot, but whatever you seem to have nailed your colours to the mast.

>>14503099
>You absolutely cannot, but whatever you seem to have nailed your colours to the mast.
Sorry, but you can.

>>14503116
I notice you've cut out one of the things I was talking about, I'm guessing it's hundreds of thousands of variables...

Look up overfitting a model, that's all they're doing.

>>14502864
strawman

>>14502589
This sort of naked spite justifies their hatred, so I'm not sure why you would say this out loud instead of merely thinking and acting on it, like left-wing trash normally do.

>>14502788
Jesus christ are you so dense you want us to pretend that Bill Gates' project was to FUND schools? The freak tried to implement silicon valley orthodoxy into the public education system and lo and behold; its disgusting there too. That was the issue, "performance" based nonsense. Not some kind of broad public funding of schools.

>>14502167
She also likes cereal with 50 dipped in it

>>14503197
This is actually really smart and based. I never thought that you could improve the quality of schools by just stopping to care about their performance. Holy heck this is a good one I will bring up to my local school board

>>14503426
Half an hour to come up with this, huh?

>>14503439
It took around 2.5 minutes. Maybe you’re talking to whoever was up the thread. I just saw your post and HAD to poke fun

why are intellectuals so easy to intimidate? is it the same way a dumb strong guy is threatened by a smart weak guy in a way he can't quite explain?

>intellectual logic: me smart, make everyone smart, then society good good
>nonintellectual logic: me strong, make everyone strong, then society good good

>me woman, make everyone woman, then society good good

but you hate women?

truly a failure of imagination.

>>14503449
Society can only be great if were /fitlit/

>>14503426
What is even smarter, perhaps even wiser...

Is to consider whether we are actually measuring "progress" or merely fetishizing a series of statistics designed to provide excuses for defunding schools and breaking up teacher's unions.

was it not Chaucer who wrote; "Bill Gates is a satanic ninny whose wealth has so alienated him from society that the idea of trusting him as normal person is tantamount to insanity. Ha, ha, ha, could you even imagine if he promised to improve our schools by running them like a Chink tech factory and people believed it? they would be retards."

>>14503463
Public gymnasiums when

>>14503446
It's not my comment you're replying to, but unless you're retarded you're intentionally posting something obfuscatory that isn't a proper response to that comment.

I mean if we REALLY wanna get anal about this, "stupid" doesn't mean stupid anymore colloquially. Most of the "stupid" posts on 4chan are challenging the status quo of the site and are often intellectual in nature. I believe this is the same usage of stupid as in the quote. He means he wants to live with a bunch of neolibs and isn't actually referencing intelligence.

>>14502179
HURRRR NIGGERS!!!!!! NIGGERS!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAH NIGGERS!!!!!!!!!! ALL THE PROBLEMS ARE BECAUSE OF NIGGERS!!!!!!!!!!!! GUYS LOOK AT ME I HATE NIGGERS!!!!! ISNT THAT SO SUBVERSIVE??? ISNT THAT SO TRANSGRESSIVE????? WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGERDY NIGGERROOOOOOOOOOOOO

shut the fuck up, amerigoblin. mutt. orc. you cant blame niggers for your country being an intellectual dumpster fire. your entire diseased, corpulent dysgenic nation has always been ground zero for decay.
>all my problems are because of niggers!!!
all your problems are because you are the great satan

>>14503478
You make no sense.

>>14502864
Yes.

>>14503481
How so?

>>14503449
>pussyllanimous logic: make everyone a faggot, then society good good

>>14503480
hello based department?

>>14502167
Education never made people smart or stupid.

>>14503515
What it do?

>>14503480
I'll say it... some of our american niggers? are pretty based too. There are less black cucks than white cucks here.

I thought this was gonna be another comfy /lit/ shits on John Green thread

>>14503539
maybe john green is retarded but thats not a excuse to also be retarded with him.

>>14503471
>>14503474
I don’t have any love for Bill Gates and I don’t know anything about his education program. I do know that certain people love to point to whatever blunders people like him make as justifications for a total critique of the possibility and value of educational standards. This is funny to me because of the leveling effect it would (or is intended to?) have between good and bad schools. I might be able to convince people that Alabamian or inner city schools are ackshually the best as long as you stop looking at their numbers, and look to things like the lived experiences of their students

>>14503485
That's a fucking stupid question.

>>14503576
Bill Gates has sunk millions of dollars into charter schools, his education reforms were never in good faith. They were at best an attempt to inject more abstract managerialism into schools and at worst an attempt to eradicate support for public schooling. It provided very convenient logic for defunding schools while pretending to be a part of the solution. He also has had a longstanding hatred of teacher's unions. The creep just wants money, you can see it in his eyes and his weak body language.

This part is more conjecture, but he does these aggressively public scams because its only through an artificial hierarchy that a beta with malformed morals like him could feel dominant.

>Everyone is typing their response on an Education-machine
Encarta taught me everything worth knowing!

>>14502589
except it is true that most public schools are trash

>>14503770
>except it is true that most public schools are underfunded and unsupported

>>14503480
b&r

>>14502389
>I'm sure he meant stupid meaning ignorant.
Which is dangerous, because a good chunk of smart people are ignorant due to a fundamental understanding of what's wrong with the current society they live in, but have no perspective on picking out which issues they have in particular.

>>14502568
Underage or Reddit?

>>14504146
Educated, and yourself? :^)

>>14503480
>le ebin 'no amerimutts are truly the niggers'
i can only assume this is transferred rage at not being able to criticize some protected class

>>14504163
Don't pretend to be that anon.

>>14504187
I had a better response than what they would have come up with desu, it was a kindness.

Why would throwing more money at the useless public education system somehow fix it? The problem is the very structure itself. I thought /lit/ was the smart board.

>>14503480
Wow thats a lot of based anon

>>14504203
>i dont know how anything works: the post

>>14504203
True. Where do structures like this come from though? Are they arranged? Built? Assembled? Sounds like they had to be paid for. Maybe if we paid a different sum of money, perhaps more, we could maybe arrange for a new, not retarded structure!

>>14504228
>>14504203
There's an implication that if you spend money it must necessarily be done wastefully, it's austerity ideology.

>>14504215
Yes anon, clearly the problem is we don't have enough money, and not because of standardized curriculum where everyone is forced to work at the exact same pace, useless learning methods hamfisted into every child (i.e. Common Core), and turning the task of learning into a tedious chore.

>>14504228
Doesnt this often lead to stuff like overinflated "administrative" budgets?

>>14504246
It's wasteful because it exists to perpetuate a broken system afloat.

>>14504275
Perhaps if we take a Gatesian managerial approach. A more pragmatic approach that cares for school supplies, lunches, safety and teacher wages is what is needed. And a curriculum overhaul, in the US at least.

>>14504291
Not if you're building a new system.

>>14504228
The flaw in your logic is that you assume that if you funded schools, they would use that money to change rather than fester like a tumor.

>>14504298
Then do that. Funding schools though, is not the answer.

>implying the overemphasis on education is good

>>14504303
So place the money directly into programs and wages instead of administrative budgets. Seems like teachers' unions would be a good counterbalance to the forces of retardation!

>>14502167
>It's because I don't like living in a country with a bunch of stupid people.
Don't these Yanks realize that if everyone was Doctors and Lawyers, there wouldn't be any room for an actual labor force (i.e. stupid people)?

>>14502179
True.
>tfw population IQ can be predicted by genome wide association studies at like 90% accuracy

>>14504328
They have never done anything useful so no.

>>14504309
Uh huh. Idiocy.

NEED MO MONEY FO DEM PROGRAMS

>>14504298
i think he was implying that throwing more money at the current system to prolong it is a waste, and that throwing money wouldn't be a waste if the purpose was to change the structure itself

>>14504331
Not only that, but the actual labor force is getting taken over by robots. In the next 50-100 years there will be almost no jobs for low IQ people, which is a problem because low IQ people aren't going to magically disappear once their jobs are gone.

>>14504340
Shut the fuck up tranny.

>>14504355
>Not only that, but the actual labor force is getting taken over by robots.
Not really, it will almost always be cheaper to pay for Pedro to move boxes for you then getting a state of the art AI to do it.

>>14504352
Doesn't seem that way, guy just hates schools for some reason.

>>14504338
They've been a driving force for acquiring the things I've mentioned that are required for education while being semi-consistent enemies of administration and managerialism.

Tell me anon, why do you WANT people to be retarded? And fat? Im adding fat because you probably oppose P.E as well.

>>14504355
Automation is a choice. A choice between mankind and the elites with their machines. I choose humanity of course! I'm an American for Pete's sake!

>>14504331
if we go by supply and demand in general terms, a decrease in labour force like factory workers and cleaners and other jobs not needing education would increase in wages enough to make them more appealing and then those positions would be filled again. realistically this cant ever happen with illegals being able to just take up those positions as cheap labour

>>14504373
Dumb post is dumb.

>>14504372
>Tell me anon, why do you WANT people to be retarded?
If I did I would support schools.

>>14504401
Yeah only an IDIOT thinks learning is how you learn. Anti-liberty scumsucking ninny.

>>14504407
>Yeah only an IDIOT thinks learning is how you learn.
>Still believing the "Schools are there to educate children" narrative

>>14504443
I like to believe in objective reality, why what alternative history do you subscribe to? I've been the one proposing effective reforms. You've been wallowing :)

>>14504455
No, all you told me is to invest in useless social reforms instead of telling me why I should or how it would benefit anyone like the typical pseudo-intellectual socialist college kid.

>>14504394
it would help to point out the flaws in what i said so that i may learn from my 'dumb' post and become smarter, thats why we are on /lit/, isnt it?

>>14504462
Never went to college, I'm a small town hayseed from a working class background. A REAL American. That's why I have REAL solutions.

And its why you bourgeois superstitions instead of ways to educate :)

>>14504465
>it would help to point out the flaws in what i said
It's pretty much the whole thing.

>>14502167
schooling doesn't do much for IQ. you just have an army of educated idiots.

>>14504552
Actually IQ correlates directly to education, here is just one of many studies indicating this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3258640/

IQ also correlates to things like shelter, food and water.

I guess if you want an educated population you'd want well funded public education in addition to social programs to make sure students can learn and ply their education! Huh, makes me wonder why so many elite education "reformers" like Bill Gates don't just put their money into these social programs or even just the teachers hands!

You...you don't think they'd trick us right? C-classes collaborate ri-right?

>>14504537
wow i have now become enlightened thank you so much you lazy cunt

>>14504566
>if you want an educated population you'd want well funded public education in addition to social programs to make sure students can learn and ply their education!
i don't think that's really the discussion here. i think people here are saying that at some point just throwing more funding towards the education system IN ITS CURRENT STATE won't improve much at all and that the entire system has flaws in the way it educates that increased funding doesn't fix

>>14502167
>Implying money will improve schools
High school English teacher. The funding wouldn't help at all in English because the problem is the curriculum. In each of my classes I'm permitted to select a single book for the students from a pre-approved list and the other four books for the course are predetermined each year. They're all about racism. The problem in K-12 English curriculums is an idealogical one. The only thing more money would change is it would let the freshmen teacher forego the free Ayn Rand books the school gets (which would still be an appreciated change, but still a minor one.)

>>14504598
I think it should be part of the discussion though, we should definitely look at every variable that affects the outcomes of our education right? Seems simple to me but we can table it for now.

What really gets me is this idea that we're going to reform public education, in some so far undescribed fashion, without funding it! And to me that just sounds like Gatesian charter school bullshit and the privatization of learning, another win for the retardation spreading, liberty hating forces of the money machine.

We ought to be ripping money out of the hands of the elites and putting it in the hands of teachers' unions. If you want education reform that works, they've been protesting and working for it and have the experience to follow through.

>>14504627
in my high school maths class there were about 21 students. because of this, a huge fraction of the class didn't bother doing the work and the teacher could never get around to even check if everyone was working or trying to solve the maths problems. ater high school i did a bridge course at a TAFE and my maths class was about 8 people. this gave the teacher enough time in one hour to come around to each student and actually watch them solve the maths problems so they would understand them. just by having the classes be smaller made the students actually be able to engage since the teacher could actually come to each of them and help them individually. i dont know if something like that if doubling the number of teachers is possible in american schools but smaller classes seemed to work well for me

>>14504665
because ur dumb, we have 30-40 students in our accelerated classes and we all finished with above 95. this is the sunken cost fallacy btw, making classes smaller so the teacher can pay more attention to the dum dums just wastes a lot of resources. maths isn't for you and you don't fucking need it. im sure you're way more creative or funny than some stem fag, the education should be catered towards guided self-learning not someone being your training wheels as you're about to take a sick jump off 500 years of theory cliff in a subject you have no talent or passion for.

the obsession with turning everyone into a smart person is making everyone dumber.

>>14504775
Ideal class sizes at Oxford and Cambridge is approx 5 students to one tutor.

>>14502291
it would be better if everyone was homeschooled

>>14502291
As a homeschooler, who grew up around homeschoolers, even the ones who grew up in shitty living situations or with weird christian families at least had some sort of soul, sense of individuality, and historical existence. The smart ones always flew far above what they'd be able to accomplish in school.

School is one of the biggest monstrosities of our era.

>>14502184
>>14502183
It's mainly the education and economic inequality.
Public education is great(even on par with private schools) in posh suburban towns in New Jersey, Boston, and California, but complete shit in NYC slums, rural Mississippi, or other parts of Cali.

>>14504298
These schools receive funding already. Why can’t they transform with what they have? Why assume they’ll need more? Why pay for a system that has yet to be proven successful?

Not everyone wants to pay nor even use public schools. They shouldn’t have to pay for your decision to trust a government institution because you can’t afford a private institution/homeschool.

>>14502291
Education is dangerous in the hands of the stupid.