/lit/ - Literature

>>14447686
Someone has to make more kids

>>14447686
Most Christfags are weird and tend to just not think about stuff like that. They just believe because everyone else around them does and would have just latched on to whatever beliefs their family has.

>>14447686
Because deep down, they know that's just cope, and their children's only lives were just cut short.

>>14447686
No. The death is still a deprivation of the life they were blessed with and a consequence of the sins of their forefathers.

>>14447899
This doesn't make any fucking sense

>>14447899
>3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
but in this case, it is only the death of flesh. Spirit is eternal and irrelevant in this topic

>>14447686
Good for kids bad for you.

The essence of a particular individual being exists eternally; death is not its end nor birth its beginning. Its eternal destiny is union with the One. Throughout the course of life, man is given tests with which to free him from the bonds of his lower will and focus the core of his being on his ultimate goal of re-achieving the primordial unity. Thus, the premature death of a child delays the process of deification. It is a truth universally admitted that a holy man is more virtuous than a holy child, for he has seen evil but rejected it, while the child is holy only from a lack of evil, not a triumphant affirmation of the good.

That's my take on it. I am not a theologian and probably have a different view than many Christians, but I still think that such a framework can exist within Christianity. Jesus has provided the path with which to climb, a path which no human would be able to create himself, but it is up to the individual to embark upon that path and choose to embrace it through living affirmation. While the process of deification and ultimate union with God could hypothetically take multiple lives in a purely metaphysical context, Christianity limits it to one maximally important life so as to stress the importance and ability within everyone at this very moment to become "perfect, as your Father in Heaven is perfect" and realize that "the Kingdom of Heaven is within you."

Once again, I reiterate that I shouldn't be seen as a representative of the typical modern Christian opinion on this topic, but I would input my opinion nonetheless

>>14447686
It depends. The casual view is that it might be good for the children but it's bad for everyone else.

If you're a hardcore Calvinist you might say it doesn't really matter one way or the other.

My personal view is that it is, probably in general, better to have lived as an adult who chose salvation even if by doing so you risked damnation (or somehow a 'worse outcome' than if you had just died as a child/baby/fetus).

A true Christian who believes this life is suffering should be murdering children after baptism. Young souls, cleansed of sin go straight to heaven.

Sure, murder is a sin, but you're accepting eternal damnation to save the souls of others. What could be more Christlike?

>>14448011
Only the Mormons believe in pre-mortal existence. Otherwise this is a pretty common view (including my own). Some who put more emphasis on predestination or less on the possibility of gradations of salvation in the afterlife might say that a child's short life was sufficient for that individual soul.

>>14447686
You know you're not the first person to realize religion doesn't make sense right? Every rational thinker should focus on preventing Christians from getting their hands on nukes.

>>14448028
not bad but you can improve it by pointing out that you can repent of killing the babies before you die so that you don't even have to go to Hell yourself.

>>14448028
Christ did not create additional evil in the process of salavtion. In your case, you are not saving the souls (Christ does that), but only sending them to be judged earlier. The most Christlike way of living would be raising others in virtue. You cause no evil and only virtue for both yourself and others.
Either way, traditional Christian ethics do not believe that the means justify the end. For an act to be good, it must be totally good in all its parts. Any one corruption corrupts the whole act.

>>14448028
I've thought this exact same thing before.

isn't that what the first part of Jane Eyre is about?

>>14448044
I am not really referring to eternality of the human individual, but rather of the transcendent soul; atma is the better word to use, but it is a bit out of its proper context in the current scenario. There are Christians that believe that the soul is eternal, are there not? I am a bit fuzzy on the exact doctrinal specifics between denominations.

>>14447770
The Saints have always said it early death was a blessing and that the only majority of persons to die and make it to heaven are baptized children. Saint Alphonsus considered the majority of all other groups damned. A famous Saint once remarked, that even the road to hell is paved with the skulls of priests. Massa damnata is not a theory controverted by theologians, it is a dogma of faith, confirmed by the words of Christ himself. Even Plato preemptively reasoned the majority of persons deserve eternal suffering.

"Most Christfags" as you call them, are not Christians in the sense that they have repented and follow Christ. They are Christians in name only; for social acclaim or to pretend and rid of bad feelings. The majority of actual Christians have death before their eyes at all times, which is why the skull has traditionally been a companion to the crucifix to meditate on. St. Charles Borromeo kept on his table a death’s head, that he might have it continually in view. Cardinal Baronius had the words, “Memento mori” inscribed on his ring. The venerable P. Juvenal Anzia, Bishop of Saluzo, had before him a skull, on which was written, “As I am, so thou shalt be.” In other words, you are a brainlet.

>>14448124
Based

>>14448067
If evil isn't something created and is the absence of good, then you can't create evil. If Evil is an actual thing that exists, then God created it, and he's a nigger.

>>14448067
Either the child you killed was going to grow up to live virtuously and achieve heaven, or was going to sin and be damned. So either you prevent the child from being damned, which is a positive good, or your just ensure the child gets to heaven sooner, which is still good.

>>14448151
Every one needs the opportunity to sin. I believe it to be worse that a child who would have sinned is murdered before doing so and goes to Heaven than for that child to mature, sin, die, receive judgement, and be cast into perdition.

>>14447686
>Actually why do kids even grow up?
Original Sin. All Jesus did is keep us from the fire, not return us to paradise.

>>14448179
>being tortured for eternity is better than an eternity of bliss

You are wrong.

>>14448087
The overwhelming orthodox consensus is that individual human souls are discretely created at a certain point in time, before which they don't exist, and this takes precedence over any concept of eternality or atma. I think it's similar to reincarnation: there are ways to thread the needle, but basically the answer is no.

Some Protestant denominations simply don't address the issue, but these are generally denominations that don't really address much of anything beyond "praise Jesus". I think the only modern Christian sect that explicitly insists on a pre-mortal existence are the Mormons, whom a lot of serious Christians don't consider to be Christians at all (I disagree with this, although I do think they're heretics with a few good points/interesting ideas).

>>14448124
I entirely agree with what you are saying accept on one point: massa damnata being an article of faith. Yes, many Saints have agreed with massa damnata, but the Saints aren't infallible and no mortal, living man truly knows who is in Heaven or Hell. Massa damnata has never been proven true by the Magisterium or the Pope speaking ex cathedra. I do see how thinking of massa damnata can aid some of the faithful, but with such a lack of hope may hinder others from seeking greater holiness.

>>14448028
I heard that someone actually did that and got executed (also he was suicidal so also a way to kill himself after repenting)

>>14448259
A man's being sent to Hell does not detract from God's perfection, nor does his being sent to Heaven add to God's perfection. God's will is man's judgement. When we toy with judgement, we scorn God's will.

>>14447686
Read Tolkien's translation of the Middle English poem "Pearl".

>>14448124
>doesn't even specify saints

>>14447686
It's not a virtue to not commit sins, it's a virtue to choose not to commit sins. You don't get rewarded for accidentally stumbling ass-backwards through life without harming yourself or others.

>>14448028
>but you're accepting eternal damnation to save the souls of others. What could be more Christlike?
Maybe not becoming a sinner whose soul is eternaly damned? What the fuck do you even listen to yourself speak. Rule number one is to not fucking sin, how do you conclude that committing horribly atrocious sins is an acceptable way to live as a christian?
This is some dumbass utilitarian approach to theology. The issue is not how to be the bigger person, but rather how to be the biggest person.
Martyrdom only works if it is motivated by acts and desires which secure your own soul's place in heaven. There is nothing admirable, even through a fundamentalist point of view, about killing babies post-baptism.

>>14448148
In this sense, evil is created when good is made to be more absent. If you accept the wild idea that killing babies creates the most good in the world, then the logical next step is that everyone should be killing babies. Obviously the problem then is that everyone is a sinner, and there is not even a next generation to pass virtues on to. Now, with humanity being 100% sinners, the best case scenario is that they all kill each other and the universe is left at a net neutral. Therefore, an output expression of Good in the universe is not maximized.

>>14447686
more proof that christians are retarded

>>14447686
>They aren't likely to commit mortal sin
>implying
https://www.salon.com/2013/06/20/the_science_of_masturbating_fetuses/amp

>>14449511
>doesn't even read

>>14451309
This is what happens from the mother being impure during pregnancy in deed, thought and action. It floods her body with sex hormones and the fetus responds.

>>14451320
Proof?

>>14448151
Except murder is still a sin, so you've still done evil.

You fundamentally misunderstand how Christian ethics actually work. Helping people live virtuously is good, and living virtuously yourself is good, but there is no precedent for the idea of killing good people just in case they might be evil later.

Also, remember what Christ said about those who harm children. It involves a millstone and the ocean.

God how was Jesus so based?

You're thinking of Christianity and religion in general the wrong way.
That said obviously the best thing is to never incarnate at all

>>14452176
>obviously the best thing is to never incarnate at all
Seems unlikely considering God incarnated.

>>14447686
If you ask me I would say that it’s bad because while they haven’t sinned nor have they done any good. They haven’t had a chance to prove themselves, to prove that they would chose salvation instead of damnation. They just lived their short lives and died before they could prove their worth, only god knows how they would turn out.

Life is a gift. It is the possibility into which the will of the Spirit unfolds. Heaven is not the final goal, only the continued process of choice to be Christlike is the goal. To cut life short is to remove the possibility of the process, and thus remove the goal, as it is the process, and not the destination, which is worth seeking. To assume that Heaven is worthier than the process in which Heaven is obtained is to be stuck in the linearity of the human conception of time. Understand that all being is process, that in God's terms the verb precedes the noun, and you will understand the sacredness of life.

>>14451893
Yeah but what if there's a disease that only kills children

>>14448011
Nice. Why the Sextus Emp. pic though?

>>14448057
>#5 Thou shalt not kill
Seems pretty clear to me desu. Not much in the way of exceptions or loopholes.

>>14448575
The Armitage version is alright too, although not as close to the original it is more accessible.

>>14453035
I've heard "murder" is a more accurate translation

>>14448124
This only makes the religion sound even worse

>>14451893
>Murder is a sin
What if one sin prevents other sins?

>You fundamentally misunderstand how Christian ethics actually work

I'm applying utilitarian ethics to a Christian worldview. Helping people live virtuously is only good if it prevents more people from suffering eternal torment.

>remember what Christ said about those who harm children
I'm sacrificing my own soul to ensure the salvation of others. I think Christ would understand that.

>>14453319
>What if one sin prevents another sin
Sin first begins in the mind of the person preforming the sin, much like an idea. So one can commit murder by fully intending to murder before the victim dies.
>I’m applying utilitarianism to a Christian worldview.
Obvious. That’s your problem. They aren’t comparable because the root of Utilitarian morality is that less bad and more good is better than more bad less good, and that your good deeds and misdeeds accumulate and you are judged by having more of one than another. Utilitarian philosophy attempts to define the value of human life by assigning it an arbitrary numerical value like a used car salesmen selling a beater car.
>I’m sacrificing my own soul to ensure the salvation of others.
Ignoring the fact you’re assuming you could possibly know as much as a all-knowing being. I’m sure he does, doesn’t mean he agrees with it however.

>>14447686
how the fuck is this relevant to literature, fuck off op

YOU FUCKING CHRISTIAN GENOCIDE JACKASS DAMN IT GO TO HELL (IF THERWS ONE)