/lit/ - Literature

>>14428888
To add on, Pynchon is typically derided for cardboard cutout characters but m&d is a very heartfelt novel and poignant at times

*is the magnum opus*

>>14428893
That was what I liked about M&D so much. A lot of Pynchon's books center around a lone protagonist thrust into outrageous situations and you're just kind of watching them be bewildered by the situation but in this one you get to see Mason and Dixon respond to all the crazy shit together and bounce things off each other and build rapport that grows and changes over the course of several years. It's funny as hell but all that history gets pretty sentimental by the closing chapters and it really stayed with me months after I finished the book

>>14428945
I really believe it is one of the most realistic and emotional books about friendship.though they had their differences and spent time without seeing each other, they were so bound to one another through circumstances.truly a touching book.i used to love Pynchon but I’ve wearied of him of late and I’m thinking of picking up atd or gr to see if I can rekindle that spark.i will always cherish m&d though.i believe it’s easiest book to read as well so I have no clue why it isn’t more popular

>>14428904
where does one start with Mann?

>>14429284
You might just read him chronologically. I'd say JAHB is maybe something like a culmination of one part Buddenbrooks (inter-generational family drama), one part Magic Mountain (the nature of time and being, seclusion/isolation, introspection, growth, mysticism), although I read JAHB first and it raised my expectations so high for his prior work that there's no way I could then evaluate fairly how I felt about them in its tremendous shadow. But I might be just fanboying JAHB, everyone else here seems to adore Magic Mountain though it's impossible to say if they ever made it to/through JAHB, as the thiccness seems to be a plebfilter.

>>14428888
i like the silmarillion more than the lord of the rings

I think that Pynchon's best book is by far Bleeding Edge. Super cool book imo

By far superior to Gulliver's Travels.

Nabokov has a lot of very underrated work imo. This and Laughter in the Dark stand out to me as underrated.

Nostromo was pretty good, much better than Heart of Darkness

>>14431369
I'm nearly done with Pale Fire right now, my first Nabokov. I'm enjoying it (albeit slightly snoozing at some Zembla asides) but I'm also honestly partially disappointed since it seems his most hyped book (besides the one with the pedophile shock value) and yet it's mostly pretty standard fare.

Like, it's fine, and I like it, but it seems like pretty average for its genre, and you can't pull the Seinfeld type line of "it seems played out since it changed the genre and the clichés came from it" because there are plenty of pieces preceding it with similar techniques, like A Tale of a Tub or Tristram Shandy.

But so #1 I only attack hoping for informative retort and #2 how would you rank Nabokov's books and what are their merits outside Pale Fire and Lolita?

>>14428888
Currently reading it and every page just zeroes in the idea that some writers really are geniuses and unless you are one you should probably just quit and do something else.

>>14431449
What's so genius about this work anon?

>>14428888
Most people go for Feast of the Goat, but this is amazing (as well as Conversations in the Cathedral)

>>14431449
He started it in the 70s at latest—good books take persistent work

>>14431482
some need more time than others

>>14431436
I didn't finish Pale Fire but I was a teenager at the time when I tried - found it too challenging (which is probably where a lot of the hype comes from, pride in being able to finish a "difficult" work).
Prosaically, Lolita is fantastic and much more than just shock value - if anything the paedophilia aspect is just a dark comedy sub-plot. I also enjoyed Despair, Luzhin and Laughter in the Dark around equally. They're all very easy and compelling reads with a beautiful disturbing coldness to them.

>>14431487
Plays are short

>>14431471
Apart from perhaps Nabokov, I can't name anyone with such a stupendously grand grasp of the English language.

>>14431540
>grand grasp of the English language.
What do you mean by this? I haven’t read either of these authors. Does Pynchon accomplish the encyclopedic nature of his writings or what?

>>14431681
I can give you a paragraph from the book itself:

>"Dissolution, Noise and Fear. Below-decks, reduced to nerves, given into the emprise of Forces invisible yet possessing great Weight and Speed, which contend in some Phantom realm they have had the bad luck to blunder into, the Astronomers abide, willing themselves blank yet active. Casualties begin to appear in the Sick Bay, the wounds inconceivable, from Oak-Splinter and Chain and Shrapnel, and as Blood creeps like Evening to Dominion over all Surfaces, so grows the East of giving in to Panic Fear. It takes an effort to act philosophickal, or even to find ways to be useful,-- but a moment's re-focusing proves enough to show them each how at least to keep out of the way, and presently to save steps for the loblolly boy, or run messages to and from other parts of the ship."

>>14431729
so grows the Ease of giving into Panic Fear*

>>14431487
middleton and others helped him

this cannot be denied

>>14431369
I prefer invitation to a beheading.

>>14431385

So much better than Catch 22

>>14431385
the best book i've ever read

>>14431806
Seeing as shakespeare's style remained so distinct and consistent through all of his plays, I'd deny it

>>14428888
Wish I finished this book. At the time I attempted it my reading was very sporadic and would often go almost an entire week between sessions, so I couldn't retain information sufficiently between readings. I've been thinking about the book quite a bit since then, especially after finishing IV and GR.

>>14431487
Timon of Athens is one of his best plays and everyone on /lit/ should read it. Personally I think it has a much more Greek character (strangely much like Corliolanus) than his quite oddball Troilus and Cressida, but that in itself should be read too regardless of whether you like Shakespeare's greatest plays or not

>>14433580
It was Herman Melville's favorite Shakespeare. It's pretty clearly unfinished but if you can forgive the inconsistencies it's a nice look at someone disgusted with humanity. It's probably the most relevant play for the whole incel/doomer subculture.

King John is also underappreciated. The bastard is kind of like a proto-Iago for being a clever and engaging villain.

>>14433467
The evidence for Middleton collaboration is about as strong as it can be without any written records of it. A few other plays were collabs as well. Granted, the only major Shakespeare play with evidence of collaboration is Macbeth, and even then it's only a scene or two.

>>14431449
Pynchon and Faulkner really hit that home for me whenever I read them. They come across like space aliens.
>>14428945
>>14429034
Good posts, my feelings exactly. I need to go back and give it a second read. The recollection toward the end about Dixon grabbing Franklin's electrical piles felt like a punch to the stomach.

>>14431373
victory is his best

>>14431495
pale fire is like 1000 lines long. how is that at all "difficult"?

>>14434549
Not that anon, but imagine that you think that poster is only referring to the poem within the novel rather than the poem + the commentary that comprises the novel. Great yob.

>>14434580
dude what?

>>14434589
The poem Pale Fire within the novel Pale Fire is about 1,000 lines long. The anon you replied to is clearly talking about the novel Pale Fire which has the poem and the commentary by the fictional poet’s fictional friend.

>>14431436
you really need to read Pale Fire within the context of 50's-60's literary criticism

>yet it's mostly pretty standard fare
you haven't even finished it yet. be sure to actually read the index

>>14428888
J.G Ballard: Crash

Haven't read it desu but the person who recommended it was enthusiastic. I anyone ever gets around to read it before I do, meme it here pls. I'm just visiting from /x/ but I'd like to know what some of you think

>>14434621
Crash is fairly well received around here, I hear more about it than any of his other stuff. Which is surprising, because I think Atrocity Exhibition is his probably his most well known outside of /lit/.

>>14434602
annotations are for those too dumb to get the references

>>14434641
low tier bait

>>14434630
Cool. I'm reading Second Sleep atm, which is more /x/ related but I won't bring up the themes in that until I finish reading it (that board is crazy btw) but I'll recommend it to you guys here since I think most of you read actual books and not new age bullshit...

Furthermore, are there any general threads I should keep my head up for while I'm here?

>>14431385
genuinely an incredible book
one of the most despairingly sad things I've read too

>>14431495
I found Lolita and pale fire subtlety hilarious.amazing books

>>14434655
Chart threads are helpful if you're looking to get into literature in general, and there's definitely charts floating around that push into /x/-like territory if that's what you're looking for. Also, the wiki that has charts and recommendations.

>>14433496
It’s his easiest book imo.once you adjust to the quirky vernacular speech and can tell each character apart by the way they speak, the book flows nicely with the usual Pynchon stop and go’s.it took me about 50-100 pgs to not even notice it anymore.also the science fiction presented is relative to time period so nothing in it is as complicated as GR

>>14434700
I already got a reading list composed by friends and an ex that lurks this board. I meant to ask if there were any specific "general" threads that pop up every so often that have any interesting discussion...Oh and just because I'm here on vacation, if you're board you should check out /x/ it's my home online.

>>14428888
Sometimes a Great Notion>One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest

>>14429284
>>14429330

I wouldn't start with Joseph, I feel that is his magnum opus and you have to have read some of the other works to fully appreciate it. Buddebrooks and Magic Mountain are good places to start, and then I'd read Doctor Faustus, which I consider his best work.

I feel The Moor's Last Sigh is Rushdie's best work, even better than the more renown Midnight's Children and Satanic Verses. It is thematically more consistent and mature.

Also, even if many know Hermann Broch from The Death of Vergil, I'd put The Sleepwalkers much ahead of it – and honestly, I'd put The Sleepwalkers as one of the greatest books of the 20th century.

Suttree>>Blood Meridian

>>14434549
>difficultu = length

>>14431373
Ahem, I think you're forgetting.. The NIGGER of the Narcissus

>>14428888
For Borges it is "In Praise of Darkness". Superior to both Labyrinths and The Aleph.

>>14435494
Where do I start with Rushdie?

Melville's piazza tales deserve more attention, like many things written by that man

>>14430825
What the fuck. It’s pretty bad and lazy compared to his others

>>14436474
Everyone knows Bartleby and it really is great but more people need to read The Encantadas. I haven't even read Moby Dick and I already love Melville

>>14428893
>Pynchon is typically derided for cardboard cutout characters

ONLY BY RETARDS

>>14436681
CAPITAL LETTERS

>>14436463
Start with Midnight's Children and then proceed chronologically. His whole career is splendid, most books are really great. I also really like The Ground Beneath Her Feet out of his later works.

>>14436689
prove me wrong :)

>>14436693
prove yourself right ;=

>>14436694
Read his books and don't be retarded maybe?

>>14436700
solid proof

>>14436707
thanks.

>>14435494
Thank you, I tend to argue that Moors is his best and it always falls on deaf ears.

Shame is also excellent

>>14435436
Amazing book.surprised it isn’t talked about more often

>>14436599
Melville’s writing is very comfy.despite being able to tell that he has a masterful command of the English language, he doesn’t come across as condescending or try hard

It's clearly not as good as melville wanted it to be, but it's good nonetheless

>>14436681
While flat characterizations are often derided, they have their place at times and can add greatly to relevant themes.im a Pynchon fan but his characters often only exist to add wackiness to the story.i wouldn’t even consider his main characters such as Tyrone to be well rounded.that doesn’t take away from Pynchon work though

>>14434604
>you really need to read Pale Fire within the context of 50's-60's literary criticism
Why?
>you haven't even finished it yet. be sure to actually read the index
Nearly done and my opinion's still the same. I will read the Index, yes.
>>14431280
I'm disappointed that nobody has responded to this.

>>14436944
i don't read books like some queer

>>14428888
I'm reading it right now. I won't lie, I was very into it for the first 400 pages but the last 3 chapters I read I have no idea what the fuck is going on

>>14436924
I’ve been meaning to read this for sometime.ive read a lot of Melvilles bibliography and the only thing I didn’t care for was the confidence-man.im gonna reread it again at some point bc i didn’t like the style but I found time and a different mindset can greatly enhance a reading

>>14436924
It was too much for me when I tried to read it right after Moby-Dick. I think there's a validity to fond complaints that it's an unreadable book. I plan to revisit it soon, I think I'll find it much more approachable now.
>>14437019
What

>>14437345
What's his funniest book

>>14437345
>>14437662
Please

Train Dreams by Denis Johnson

>>14431449
I was reading Ficciones (Borges) and believing this too, then I got Historia universal de la infamia and changed my mind.

>>14437662
His books have subtle humor throughout.the first ~100 pages of moby dick, the confidence man is fairly humorous but is fairy difficult, Bartleby I found to have surreal humor, his island novels have funny cultural observations, etc

>>14437662
Bartleby by far is his most humorous

i have a youtube channel about this very subject.
youtube.com/watch?v=yPAE1T-Wpf0
recommend some things.

>>14439710
picture

>>14431449
IIRC writing a book is actually predicted by IQ on some metrics, but don't quote me on that
Anyways a lot of it is still practice and dedication

>>14436944
>>you really need to read Pale Fire within the context of 50's-60's literary criticism
because that's essentially what the book is about. Nabokov is ironically critiquing much of the insanity which was developing within English departments.

>>14431449
anyone can be a magnificent author, even the mentally disabled. read and write and nothing else and you can easily write several objectively phenomenal short stories over the course of your life. if you're lucky, maybe even a good novel. never give up anons, but never giving up means never stopping reading / writing

Man, I wish I saw in M&D what you guys see. I mean I LOVED GR, IV, Vineland, and Lot 49. Reading AtD right now and really enjoying it as well.
But somehow I found M&D kinda underwhelming in comparison. It's a cozy story with some memorable parts, but I honestly have no mental image of Mason or Dixon. For some reason I just did not pick up any of the characterization everyone raves about.
I get that it's supposed to be Pynchon doing a conventional novel after years of experimenting with whatever the fuck GR and Lot 49 was, but it was missing the exegetic depth that makes Pynchon so great to begin with.
Thoughts? What did I miss? Am I just dumb?

>>14437662
Some of Melville's short stories are lighthearted comedy. Try 'I and my Chimney', 'The Lightning Rod Man' and 'Bachelor's Paradise'. I haven't read them for years so apologies if they stink. Some of the lines in Bartleby are good but I had a grudge against it for being popular among theorycels. MUH THEMES

>>14440089
Scholarly insanity has been prevalent for centuries, anon. Read more old things.

>>14441092
>Scholarly insanity has been prevalent for centuries
Did I say or even imply that is hasn't? I'm talking specifically about New Criticism and the impending air of Post Structuralism, a specific period of academia from which Pale Fire emerges. You're an idiot, anon.

Franny and Zooey

German trilogy > Mort à crédit (whatever it's translated to) > journey to the end of the night
Don't get me wrong, even the journey is close to timeless masterpiece status, but it's one of Celine's weakest.

>>14441140
You're implying that I'm fundamentally incapable of enjoying the book, which is in part critiquing an extremely long-historied intellectual trend, if I haven't read the works of a handful of people from a specific pair of decades. There's more to literature than what your professors are spoonfeeding you.

I just finished Buddenbrooks a few days ago. Thinking about The Magic Mountain next, then Joseph, then Doctor Faustus
Is this the correct order?

Bump

>>14431373
+1, I think the rest of Conrad’s work is overshadowed by Heart of Darkness

>>14431806
Nor proven, so it shall be disregarded

>>14442979
Doctor Faustus before Joseph, Faustus is his true masterpiece. Seriously great work, one of the best I've read

>>14428888
Dump

>>14442979
i'd read joseph last.

>>14438503
I will check it.

>>14442920
>You're implying that I'm fundamentally incapable of enjoying the book, which is in part critiquing an extremely long-historied intellectual trend, if I haven't read the works of a handful of people from a specific pair of decades.
I did not do that at all.

>>14444932
>you really need to read Pale Fire within the context of 50's-60's literary criticism
>because that's essentially what the book is about.
>I'm talking specifically about New Criticism and the impending air of Post Structuralism, a specific period of academia from which Pale Fire emerges. You're an idiot, anon.
Therefore:
>You're implying that I'm fundamentally incapable of enjoying the book, which is in part critiquing an extremely long-historied intellectual trend, if I haven't read the works of a handful of people from a specific pair of decades.

>>14436938
>While flat characterizations are often derided, they have their place at times and can add greatly to relevant themes.im a Pynchon fan but his characters often only exist to add wackiness to the story.
yeah, okay, word, that sounds reasonab-
>i wouldn’t even consider his main characters such as Tyrone to be well rounded.
I will find you. Slothrop is the heart and soul of GR

>>14446043
Allegories

>>14436009
Ok, /pol/

>>14431540
Gaddis.

>>14428888
I liked the first parts, but I couldn't concentrate after they got to America.

>>14446648
Getting too abstract...

>>14445106
no.!!

>>14428888
As my friend on Goodreads put it:

'I'm convinced that Thomas Pynchon is a hack, and the reason we don't hear from him is because he has nothing to say and knows that if we gave him a microphone and fifteen minutes he'd be found out.'

>The Fifty Year Sword by Mark Danielewski
his best release IMO. i am ambivalent towards the others

'Down and Out in Paris and London' is one of my current favorites. While I can't overlook the historical significance of the two Orwell books that everybody knows about, I didn't feel like either of them manage to never miss a single beat the way that D&O does

>>14448891
>my friend on Goodreads

>>14449286
You have account there too anon, stop hiding.