/lit/ - Literature

>>14424948
its not meant for logic but guidance

>>14424948
Yes.

Literally, typologically, allegorically, and hermeneutically.
All four together. You can't deny the historicity, but it is simplified history. That's why you go over to the symbology (typology) the whole Bible is full of signs of Christ and the Gospel; then there's the allegorical meaning, why it has been written like that or why is this detail focused on (it's related to the simplification of the whole story). Then hermeneutics is just what the definition says.

>>14425015
Uuh, I meant tropological not hermeneutically. All of this is hermeneutics.

>>14424948
I think we should interpret it as a collection of ancient political pamphlets. Social activism with metaphysical extra steps. Revolt of slaves against their opressors.

>>14425035
>>14425015
what about concepts like theosis?

Both litteraly and on top of that to can buil allegorical readings

>>14425058
That's not interpretation but read through all those four ways.
>Now the Lord is the Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face seeing the glory of the Lord as in a mirror, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the Spirit.

He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” He said, “Write, for these words of God are faithful and true.” 6 He said to me, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give freely to him who is thirsty from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son.

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you[e] known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

>>14425149
What are some good books to learn proper hermeneutics?

>>14424948
The people are stories are real, and the miracles actually happened. They are also intended for spiritual guidance. Here is a documentary about the evidence for one small part of the Bible (God as fire on Mt. Sinai and the Israelite's escape from Egypt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxwFG10RyF0

>>14424948
The nearest translation of the motto taken from Schiller, would be

>"in the Christian religion I find an intrinsic
disposition to the Highest and the Noblest,
and its various manifestations in life appear
to me so vapid and repugnant simply because
they have missed expression of that Highest."

>ONE might say that where Religion becomes artificial, it is reserved for Art to save the spirit of religion by recognising the figurative value of the mythic symbols which the former would have us believe in their literal sense, and revealing their deep and hidden truth through an ideal presentation. Whilst the priest stakes everything on the religious allegories being accepted as matters of fact, the artist has no concern at all with such a thing, since he freely and openly gives out his work as his own invention. But Religion has sunk into an artificial life, when she finds herself compelled to keep on adding to the edifice of her dogmatic symbols, and thus conceals the one divinely True in her beneath an ever growing heap of incredibilities commended to belief. Feeling this, she has always sought the aid of Art; who on her side has remained incapable of higher evolution so long as she must present that alleged reality of the symbol to the senses of the worshipper in form of fetishes and idols,— whereas she could only fulfil her true vocation when, by an ideal presentment of the allegoric figure, she led to apprehension of its inner kernel, the truth ineffably divine.
>The very shape of the Divine had presented itself in anthropomorphic guise; it was the body of the quintessence of all pitying Love, stretched out upon the cross of pain and suffering. A—symbol?—beckoning to the highest pity, to worship of suffering, to imitation of this breaking of all self-seeking Will: nay, a picture, a very effigy! In this, and its effect upon the human heart, lies all the spell whereby the Church soon made the Græco-Roman world her own.
>...the suffering god upon the cross, "the Head with wounds all bleeding," still fills us with ecstatic throes, in the rudest reproduction.
>Belief devised the necessary miracle of the Saviour's birth by a Mother who, [218] not herself a goddess, became divine through her virginal conception of a son without human contact, against the laws of Nature. A thought of infinite depth, expressed in form of miracle. In the history of Christianity we certainly meet repeated instances of miraculous powers conferred by pure virginity, where a metaphysical concurs very well with a physiologic explanation, in the sense of a causa finalis with a causa efficiens; but the mystery of motherhood without natural fecundation can only be traced to the greater miracle, the birth of the God himself: for in this the Denial-of-the-world is revealed by a life pre-figuratively offered up for its redemption.

>>14425333
"in the Christian religion I find an intrinsic
disposition to the Highest and the Noblest,
and its various manifestations in life appear
to me so vapid and repugnant simply because
they have missed expression of that Highest."


>ONE might say that where Religion becomes artificial, it is reserved for Art to save the spirit of religion by recognising the figurative value of the mythic symbols which the former would have us believe in their literal sense, and revealing their deep and hidden truth through an ideal presentation. Whilst the priest stakes everything on the religious allegories being accepted as matters of fact, the artist has no concern at all with such a thing, since he freely and openly gives out his work as his own invention. But Religion has sunk into an artificial life, when she finds herself compelled to keep on adding to the edifice of her dogmatic symbols, and thus conceals the one divinely True in her beneath an ever growing heap of incredibilities commended to belief. Feeling this, she has always sought the aid of Art; who on her side has remained incapable of higher evolution so long as she must present that alleged reality of the symbol to the senses of the worshipper in form of fetishes and idols,— whereas she could only fulfil her true vocation when, by an ideal presentment of the allegoric figure, she led to apprehension of its inner kernel, the truth ineffably divine.
>The very shape of the Divine had presented itself in anthropomorphic guise; it was the body of the quintessence of all pitying Love, stretched out upon the cross of pain and suffering. A—symbol?—beckoning to the highest pity, to worship of suffering, to imitation of this breaking of all self-seeking Will: nay, a picture, a very effigy! In this, and its effect upon the human heart, lies all the spell whereby the Church soon made the Græco-Roman world her own.
>...the suffering god upon the cross, "the Head with wounds all bleeding," still fills us with ecstatic throes, in the rudest reproduction.
>Belief devised the necessary miracle of the Saviour's birth by a Mother who, [218] not herself a goddess, became divine through her virginal conception of a son without human contact, against the laws of Nature. A thought of infinite depth, expressed in form of miracle. In the history of Christianity we certainly meet repeated instances of miraculous powers conferred by pure virginity, where a metaphysical concurs very well with a physiologic explanation, in the sense of a causa finalis with a causa efficiens; but the mystery of motherhood without natural fecundation can only be traced to the greater miracle, the birth of the God himself: for in this the Denial-of-the-world is revealed by a life pre-figuratively offered up for its redemption.

>>14424948
Uncivilized people (by which I mean a people who's religion has not been destroyed by rationalism) literally believed their gods walked the Earth and that they interact with the supernatural on a daily basis. They saw aspects of the gods in all things, even the mundane. Early Christianity is no different. Today it is impossible to be truly religious because we are more concerned with the natural world than the spiritual.

>>14425360
japs believe that their gods (kami) live with them and are in everything (sometimes physical objects) are you saying they are barbarians?

"in the Christian religion I find an intrinsic
disposition to the Highest and the Noblest,
and its various manifestations in life appear
to me so vapid and repugnant simply because
they have missed expression of that Highest."

>ONE might say that where Religion becomes artificial, it is reserved for Art to save the spirit of religion by recognising the figurative value of the mythic symbols which the former would have us believe in their literal sense, and revealing their deep and hidden truth through an ideal presentation. Whilst the priest stakes everything on the religious allegories being accepted as matters of fact, the artist has no concern at all with such a thing, since he freely and openly gives out his work as his own invention. But Religion has sunk into an artificial life, when she finds herself compelled to keep on adding to the edifice of her dogmatic symbols, and thus conceals the one divinely True in her beneath an ever growing heap of incredibilities commended to belief. Feeling this, she has always sought the aid of Art; who on her side has remained incapable of higher evolution so long as she must present that alleged reality of the symbol to the senses of the worshipper in form of fetishes and idols,— whereas she could only fulfil her true vocation when, by an ideal presentment of the allegoric figure, she led to apprehension of its inner kernel, the truth ineffably divine.
>...The very shape of the Divine had presented itself in anthropomorphic guise; it was the body of the quintessence of all pitying Love, stretched out upon the cross of pain and suffering. A—symbol?—beckoning to the highest pity, to worship of suffering, to imitation of this breaking of all self-seeking Will: nay, a picture, a very effigy! In this, and its effect upon the human heart, lies all the spell whereby the Church soon made the Græco-Roman world her own.
>...whereas the suffering god upon the cross, "the Head with wounds all bleeding," still fills us with ecstatic throes, in the rudest reproduction.
>...Belief devised the necessary miracle of the Saviour's birth by a Mother who, [218] not herself a goddess, became divine through her virginal conception of a son without human contact, against the laws of Nature. A thought of infinite depth, expressed in form of miracle. In the history of Christianity we certainly meet repeated instances of miraculous powers conferred by pure virginity, where a metaphysical concurs very well with a physiologic explanation, in the sense of a causa finalis with a causa efficiens; but the mystery of motherhood without natural fecundation can only be traced to the greater miracle, the birth of the God himself: for in this the Denial-of-the-world is revealed by a life pre-figuratively offered up for its redemption.

>>14424948
It’s a compilation of history, poetry, genealogies, and future history.
Genesis is history, compromisers cry harder.

>>14425422
>As the Saviour himself was recognised as sinless, nay, incapable of sin, it followed that in him the Will must have been completely broken ere ever he was born, so that he could no more suffer, but only feel for others' sufferings; and the root hereof was necessarily to be found in a birth that issued, not from the Will-to-live, but from the Will-to-redeem. But this mystery that seemed so plain to the illuminate, was exposed to the most glaring misinterpretations on the part of popular realism when demanded as an article of faith; the " immaculate conception by the Virgin Mary might be phrased indeed, but never thought, still less imagined.
>The Church, which in the Middle Ages had her articles expounded by her handmaid, Scholastic philosophy, sought at last for means of visibly portraying [219] them; above the porch of St. Kilian (4) at Wurzburg we may see a bas-relief of God the Father transmitting the embryo of the Saviour to the body of Mary by means of a blow-pipe. This instance may serve for thousands like it! Such appalling degradation of religious dogmas to arti ficiality we referred to in our opening paragraph, and this flagrant example will emphasise the redeeming effect of true idealistic art if we turn to their treatment by heaven-sent artists, such as Raphael in his so-called "Sistine Madonna." The Miraculous Conception still was handled in the Church's realistic spirit, to some extent, even when great artists painted its annunciation to the Virgin by an angel, albeit the spiritual beauty of the figures, removed from all materialism, here gives us a glimpse into the divine mysterium itself. But that picture of Raphael's shews us the final consummation of the miracle, the virgin mother transfigured and ascending with the new-born son: here we are taken by a beauty which the ancient world, for all its gifts, could not so much as dream of; for here is not the ice of chastity that made an Artemis seem unapproachable, but Love divine beyond all knowledge of unchastity, Love which of innermost denial of the world has born the affirmation of redemption. And this unspeakable wonder we see with our eyes, distinct and tangible, in sweetest concord with the noblest truths of our own inner being, yet lifted high above conceivable experience. If the Greek statue held to Nature her unattained ideal, the painter now unveiled the unseizable and therefore indefinable mystery of the religious dogmas, no longer to the plodding reason, but to enraptured sight.
>...all effective power to bring about the great Regeneration, can spring from nothing save the deep soil of a true Religion.
>...Upon this road I grew convinced that Art can only prosper on the basis of true Morals, and thus could but ascribe to it a mission all the higher when I found it altogether one with true Religion.


- Wagner

>>14425422
>>14425428

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2apMsvrC0k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfcEfYN6PjU (don't bother unless you're either a complete Wagnerian or speak German)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz4WAyUw_9I (best if understood in German but not necessary)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjxN2Palto4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nhcTllJgIY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB8RcpkFSRY (knowing the libretto shews its true structure however its aesthetic revelation shines through any language and so is advised to read along - is short - but not necessary: http://www.murashev.com/opera/Die_M

eistersinger_von_N%C3%BCrnberg_libretto_English_Act_1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-qoaioG2UA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsCQj0GJ1K8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqk4bcnBqls

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQOfIENN2tk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRmCEGHt-Qk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y-xxhBia0s

>>14425427
Thanks for ruining my streak you enormous faggot.

>>14425428
>As the Saviour himself was recognised as sinless, nay, incapable of sin, it followed that in him the Will must have been completely broken

Utterly anti-Christian.

>>14424948
> literally as if the people and stories actually were real and there is historical/ archeological proof of them or figuratively?

u guys actualy beleve the noahs ark happened LOL

>>14425721
The translation is famously clumsy.

That said, Wagner is not saying Christ was without will, much less that as if it was at sometime literally broken or removed, but that it was a completely self negating one of transcendence. Christ lives a life of belief willed, not to sate his own will.

bhujmp