/lit/ - Literature

>Is a claseless society even possible?
No.

It's another Cris thread

>>14408487
All complex systems organize hierarchically, it's literally inevitable that you'll have some form of it, class-based or otherwise. Furthermore, the much-hated Capital is really just an aspect of larger universal laws, even if they somehow got rid of it, it'd be essentially meaningless.

>>14408487
Used to think it's possible, but meeting more people and seeing just how much of a brainlet most of them are, it is impossible

>>14408919
>All complex systems organize hierarchically
Wrong

>>14408487
It's not and it's what "people who read these books" want. It's merely a pretext. These people are intelligent middle class people who are neglected by the elites. They want to be co-opted by the power structure, but it fails to co-opt them due to excess of middle class intellectuals. Therefore they become angry and revolt against the power structure and use the lower class as cannon fodder and a social cause as pretext in order to shake the old system and catapult them to a better position in the new system.

There will always be three classes in society: the ruling elites, the lower class and the middle class always trying to access the elite class. The middle, not the lower class is the only revolutionary class at all times.

They don't want to abolish class, social justice, tolerance, etc. They only and always fight for the egoistic self-interest.

>>14408487
>Is a claseless society even possible?

Better question: why would you even want something so gay even if it was possible?

>>14408919
This. Language's telos is hierarchy and capital is merely the epiphenomenal manifestations of underlying movements of power

>>14408988
>14408988
>1488
Based

>>14408991
This, except calling it a hierarchy is merely labeling according to a narrative model anyway. Yall niggas need to read "the masque of anarchy" and also some essays by Vladislav Serkov

Of course it is possible, my child. It is simply that the historical conditions have not yet presented themselves. The struggle is being won by capitalism, but soon enough capitalism will defeat itself. Then we shall see.

>>14409032
Even ants and bees are hierarchical, dumb nigger.

>>14409032
>Jesus didn't return in the year 2000, but but wait until the year 3000 and you'll see!
Funny how commies talking about their eschatological fantasies look so much like christards

>>14409047
Even inanimate objects are, actually. Not all, but enough.

>>14409047
>>14409062
both anthropocentric projections based on historical understanding of power structures

>>14409067
even animals specialize in some skill, even among animal comunities, dumb nigger retard.

how do u have a complex society without specialization of labour?

>>14409079
>even animals specialize in some skill, even among animal comunities
this is true. so what? specialization of labor /=/ class.

>>14409067
That doesn't actually invalidate anything.

>>14409084
it means your analogy to other animals doesn't justify class in human populations

>>14409082
what do u mean those specialized workers don't make up diferent classes though asociation dumb nigger commie retard?

what are ateliers and medieval guilds, dumb nigger?

>>14409092
how do u avoid having class (a side effect of labour specialization)?

Nah they just want their daddy academics to be socieities top dogs they use weasel words like "Justified Hierarchy" or "Real meritocracy" Their king wears tweed thats it

>>14409098
Define class

>>14409110
asociation of workers into diferent comunities (blue collars, programmers, doctors).

It basically means middle class, blue collar and rich people (working class vs rich).

>>14408487
I knew a guy who firmly believed in this shit, but he was never able to explain the merit behind it without logical inconsistencies. When I'd ask him about how stupid or disabled people would function in a society like this, his response was simply, "Fuck 'em."

I think >>14408977 has the right idea (also, checked). In fact, I don't think I could explain it any more clearly.

>>14409144
>When I'd ask him about how stupid or disabled people would function in a society like this, his response was simply, "Fuck 'em."
kek

>>14409092
I don't think anything justifies anything. I'm being descriptive here, not prescriptive.

>>14409115
Neither anarchist nor communist authors would oppose that. This is the Weberian definition of class (of course actively constructed by him to oppose the Marxian one). Abolishing class does not mean abolishing specialization or hierarchy, even for anarchyfags. Of course, there's swaths of theorylets (mostly anarchists) who will claim different, but generally class in the Marxist and Anarchist theory is defined by its relation to the means of production (worker-capitalist). Social ownership of the means of production does not necessarily entail equality. The Marxist definition of class necessarily implies a fundamental antagonism between those classes, whereas liberal definitions imply the opposite.

>>14408487
>Is a classless society even possible
No. But the general trend of wide class distinctions and vast power structures is a recipe for Mass suffering, so the process of removing them if they get too big is a net positive

>>14409198
>>14409211
how do u remove the natural tendencies of human organizations to seek their own natural profit and benefit over the others?

>>14408487
You seem to be thinking about some sort of market socialist economy, which anarchists and communists are pretty much opposed to. To us, selling your labour force is necessarily alienating, and that's the social force that would lead to a classless, moneyless society. Classless because it's impossible to produce value merely by owning the means of production; ownership is useless by itself and it only produces value insofar as the owner contributes with their labour force as a manager or worker.
Moneyless, on the other hand, because money becomes unnecessary in a society free of commodity fetishism and because working for money, as I said, is alienating. "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need."

>>14408487
>>14409218
the point of a classless (perhaps stateless) society is that the hierarchies no longer become relevant. they still exist, but the existence of hierarchies is no longer dictating society at large.

That is to say, society is conceivably organized such that no matter what kinds of conglomerates, dynasties, collectives come about, no matter how much they seek their own self interest, the game is pre-emptively rigged for their efforts to never raise them into a whole new class.

Of course, commies are resentful little fucks motivated by envy of the successful and pity for the poor, so these arguments should not be taken seriously

>>14408919
If human beings are supposed to organise hierarchically by nature, why does alienation exist?
>>14409198
It's almost as if your only understanding of anarchism came from ML authors who went out of their way to misrepresent them.

>>14409333
>>14409349
how do organize a complex society without a hierarchical structure?

>>14409094
Look at the brainlet seethe hehehahahoho

>>14409359
the original marxist line, considers on an unironically scientific level, that capitalism is SO contradictory, that we will eventually just get to this society the way history is going.

more modern lines say that we either actively enforce this society through a total state, or we have no state and just disintegrate society while maintaining really powerful ideology (the widespread group will enforce it)

>>14409474
so a totalitarian shithole or basically destroy modern society to return to a primitive level.

nice ideology retard.

>>14409349
Post some recs then fag

>>14409474
Is the modern line not directly contradicting the old one, if its not a detached analysis of inevitable development, doesn't it just become an arbitrary goal that might never be reached

>>14409491
you could always take the zizek route and aim for better bureaucracy while we figure out what what a better coomunism looks like

>>14409524
better bureaucracy doesn't stop corruption.

>but then we kill corrupt leaders
doesn't stop corruption.

even china is filled with corruption.

>>14409511
Well, the old line is a bit too prophetic to be contradicted. Like, if we fell into fascism, they would say, "ah but this is just a necessary stepping stone to communism because now people will realize how terrible hierarchies truly are" and so on

>>14409529
true, but that's just a necessary, temporary measure to figure out that better coomunism

>>14409540
doesn't solve my concerns.

How do u have a complex society without a hierarchical structure.

How do u stop more capable members of society (those who are higher on concientiousness and IQ) to reach positions of power?

Will u punish those at the top of the pareto distribution for no reason?

What if some farmer is the richest guy because he makes 50% of all the food?

>>14408487
Yes. Though justifiable hierarchies are not classes.

Ending capitalism will allow for uncorrupted state officials to be more democratically elected and the people will further defuse the states powers in favor of local specialized positions. Or the people will be fools and elect their local preacher to rule them for life. I doubt that sort of thing will be common.

They can organize very well. They do so already. We don’t need government for that.

Non-accumulative currency and even a shared economy where they’re interested

>brown people
>IQ
W/tf/e

>>14408487
this thread is a dumpster fire

>>14409574
Go away tranny freak, humans are talking now

>>14409574
IQ correlates with wealth.

niggers and beaners are dumb, communism can't solve them to stop being poor.

>>14409561
hierarchy still exists, but is ineffectual

positions of power are still there for the most capable, but these positions do not have overwhelming reach

no

one farmer can't make 50% of all food for even a village of 2000 people. he will have to work with other farmers. the fact that he has to work with others means that it's possible that those others will not allow him to obtain massive wealth. this possibility could be institutionalized socially and through government

>>14408977
No.

>>14409613
so your totalitarian shithole wont be rewarding the best workers.

what will make them not work for the capitalists instead?

>inb4 brain drain isn't real

>>14408977
this is kind of a simplification but it does represent seething middle class intellectuals' desires well. The idea that they belong to the same economic class as some blue collar suburban who watches nascar is simply too much for them to handle

>>14409596
>communism can't solve them to stop being poor.
I know you’re not real big on economics, but try to understand that ending capitalism will end poverty.

>>14409667
IQ is related to poverty.

dumb people make less money than smart people.

All the rich people have 120 IQ (millionaries) or 140 (billionaires).

>>14409689
>Someone with poor reading comprehension is lecturing me about the importance of IQ tests validating his racism.
Go back

>>14409630
well, it would, it would reward them proportionally for their work. it just wouldn't reward them with the work of other people

>>14409279
Why would I want to work for free? How are you going to have a large economy without currency?

>>14409349
There's no 'supposed'. It just happens.

>>14409574
>I doubt that sort of thing will be common
You need to get out more, people are morons.

>>14409778
>Why would I want to work for free?
you can answer this question yourself

>>14409743
have u ever realized why black people make the bulk of poor people in all nations (africa, America, latinoamerica)?

>but muh white racism
then how come blacks in africa are literally starvation tier if there wasn't a lot of white people keeping them down like in the US?

>but muh colonization
then why Korea and japan and china become superpowers in just 40 years? (korea in the 60's was a shithole and China was a feudal society).

>>14409772
so, what makes high IQ workers to not just go to a capitalist nation to be rewarded more?

>reward them proportionally
so what's diferent from a capitalist system where Steve jobs and Bill gates produced more wealth than billions of lower IQ people?

Amazon founder has produced more wealth than 99.999... of humans.

The value of windows OS is bigger by trillions of times than the value of the work of the average factory worker or amazon warehouse worker.

>>14409667
There will always be poor.

Commies are retarded. They can't be reasoned with, they need to be physically removed. Arguments are for internal consumption, not external debate. For commietards only bullets.

>>14409792
If your assuming I’m going to work out of the goodness of my heart, the answer is no.

>>14409806
Probably more the community will bust your knee caps

>>14409801
acording to commies you can't be rich from your own work.

so is impossible to become rich of your work, like JKR, or that faggot who wrote game of thrones or stephen king.

so stephen king didn't earned his 400 millions he has.

It was all magic.

>>14409616
t. resentful middle class/petty bourgeoise champagne socialist

>>14409815
>so stephen king didn't earned his 400 millions he has.
HE EXPLORED THE PRINTING INDUSTRY WORKERS OUT OF THEIR SURPLUS VALUE!

>>14408487
No. But the gaps should be kept as small as possible.

>>14409794
Based

>>14409811
Sounds like a community I’d rather not live in.

>>14409561
>How do u have a complex society without a hierarchical structure.
Why does society need to be complex?

>>14409801
When a populace divides up the resources for all according to their needs, no one will go hungry, homeless or neglected.
The reason we have poor is the invention of the wealthy class. Think back to when they were created.

>>14409815
>magic
Or rather it was all spiritual. Money isn’t really valuable. The books themselves are valued by his fans, but pricing is arbitrary

>>14409857
why do u want to live like those starving amazonian niggers in the jungle?

>>14409863
how do u organize and ship resources in an effective manner.

>central planning
lmao, this shit is crank economics.

look at venezuela.

>money isn't valuable
how do u store the excess of production of time?

>inb4 bartering

>>14409835
>idiot posting? I’ll give him. A based!
Fucking poltards

>>14409806
Sit in your house and starve, but don’t go blaming people, ya damn neet.

>>14409864
because the alternative is becoming a meatslave to the AI god

>this many people seething about being losers instead of learning a skill, going to school, or any other way of bettering to make more and work less
Cuhringe

>>14409882
AI central planning is communist BS.

free market already does this for free.

>>14409874
>how do u organize and ship resources in an effective manner.
Quite well, I’m sure.

>central planning
>Anarchist recommends decentralized community control
Anon...
>look at Venezuela
Capitalist. Mixed economy, anon.
>money isn't valuable
>how do u store the excess of production of time?
What is the concern here? You want to store wealth? Wealth is in resources alone. Earth, human and time.

ok commies, how do u share limited resources between two groups in your society that needs said resource (like land or whatever)?

how do u know which is more important?

Let's say artists need some cultural center but their land is also needed for some industry center to produce a vital need.

how do u then decide which is more important?

And let's say a resource is needed by musicians and painters, how do u decide which is more important than the other?

>>14409909
see
>>14409914

how do u pick which class or group to share the limited resources?

>want to store wealth
yes, how do u store your fruits of labour.

how do u store the fruits of labour of a musician so he can get the resources he needs and wants.

and how will he afford expensive luxury items?

>inb4 expensive luxury goods wont be created
so, good bye to expecialized labour like guys who make ancient renaissance instruments?

or the guys who make specialized hand made clocks?

how can u say a hand made reinassance clock that took a year to make versus a cheap chinese plastic garbage knock off to have more value without a price tag?

>>14409899
Learning to drywall isn’t going to end the wars, get people proper medical care, keep our food and water supplies from getting poisoned, stop the growing numbers of homeless, convince a politician to raise taxes on the wealthy or stop China from ascending to the new super power.

>>14409927
In my fridge, my closet and belly.

Have a book

how do commies societies afford luxury items that are expensive to make and are only important for a niche job, skill or market?

what if the resource to make such luxury item conflicts with the need for a more important need of the base society?

>>14409938
so basically central planing is just use the capitalist wallmart mode of production?

why is diferent from a capitalist system?

and how will people afford luxury items?

>>14409944
See >>14409804

Don't argue wth commies. They don't argue in good faith.

>>14409952
I want to know what they say.

How a centrally planned society can afford spending 200 million dollars in a videogame like most AAA games?

>>14408518
fpbp /thread

Communist society would probably even worse at art, imagine every retard who rightfully works at starbucks makes their life about their trash "art" and the society is supposed to hold up what people want to do with their life apperntly.

>>14409901
I think you misunderstood me

>>14409977
I really don't know a single luxury brand made by communists.

like no videogame, no film, no comic, no orchestral music, no ferrary, no sport shoes.

nothing.

>>14409987
>no orchestral music
They actually have plenty I'll give them that, more and better than judaized capitalist societies

>>14409944
They aren’t expensive to begin with. A rarity, say a Chanel shoe of a certain design, can be made anywhere in the world by a competent craftsman, the stupid logo included, and now (in the imagned commune) that there’s no copyright to worry about we have local markets handing out quality local goods again, instead of this race to the bottom of cheapest of cheap.

Have your parents ever decided to feed and clothe a sibling better than you? They have? Horrible parenting.

>central planing
Is the USSR and China. There are some advantages to it, but I’m not a tanky.

>>14409952
Who hurt you?

>>14409876
I’d rather be paid or at least compensated for my work, and it won’t be only me who thinks this way.

>>14409863
> When a populace divides up the resources for all according to their needs

How do you know what my needs are, or anyone else’s for that matter? How do you stop people from wanting more, even if it surpasses their need?

We have poor, for a many reasons, an inescapable fact.

>>14409930
Your implying I care for people outside of my social circle, out side of them I only care about making money.

>>14410259
Which is why it’s fine with me that we use a non-accumulative currency. See book mentioned here >>14409938 for further details. It can work.

>>14410264
>How do you know what my needs are
We’ve done the calculations
>How do you stop people from wanting more
They will have such freedoms undreamed of. With efforts they will have practically whatever they put their minds to
>We have poor, for a many reasons, an inescapable fact.
And they’re all to do with statism and capitalism. This is what it’s all about. You’d know that by now if you’d read anything on it.

>>14408943
Prove it.

>>14410270
No, I’m implying that these are real issues. I don’t care about such drywall personalities on an individual basis, I mean it’s a real shame such people are turned loose into the world, I’d slap your parents if I could, I care about all of you. I want quality human beings, not worker drones for the oligarchy that’s killing the biosphere.

>>14410293
So a form of currency that will not function.

You cannot accurately predict the needs of an individual, even more so for larger populations. Your system fails due to the economic calculation problem. Your never going to get post scarcity either, this is a planet of finite resources as well as post scarcity implies violation of the laws of thermodynamics. Then how come even outside of statism and capitalism you still have destitute people? You seem very ignorant of history, which is of no suprise.

>>14410301
Your going to have to slap all of humanity first, don’t be surprised when it punches back and resists.

Again what’s my incentive to care for people out of my immediate circle. I have no loyalty to nation, race or creed, only to my wallet and immediate friends and family.

What’s the incentive for a queer individual to care about people who would toss them off a roof?

>>14408919
>Capital is really just an aspect of larger universal laws
Imagine being this brainwashed

>>14410293
Slit your own wrists, commie childkiller.

>>14410306
>You cannot ac
Read
The
Book
(Or he has some videos if your head can’t take it)

>>14410314
>Your
You’re*
>>14410315
It’s a damn religion with crazy fuck liberals.

>>14410336
So you are unable to answer questions then? Therefore I can only assume you have no idea what you are talking about.

>>14410345
What question? The strawman? I gave you a whole damn book to answer all the complicated issues you might think of. Go check it out already.

The two models proposed by commies for managing resources are inherently flawed. The realistic view of having representatives in a centralised government that manages production takes away individual freedom and puts in the hands of a select few, creating a new aristocracy and vastly increases the impact of human error and corruption.

The idealistic view of having no government with direct democracy only brings everyone down to the lowest common denominator. Pick anything even slightly niche (art, video games, sports other than football, etc) and ask yourself if 51% of population would support its funding and the answer is no. This would destroy culture and stop innovation and push power into those who can control the propaganda.

Capitalism is the only system currently proposed that allows the individuality in spite of the government and lessens its control.

>>14410460
>direct democracy only brings everyone down to the lowest common denominator.
Baseless
>51% of population wouldn’t support vidya cultchur
The monsters!
>only 49% of the population would make vidya cultchural innovation. thereby DESTROYING IT.
>Propagandists (mothers and non-vidya game players) would be able to talk smack about muh games!

>>14410360
So you do not know what you are talking about then? You have no confidence in what you have read?

>>14410545
Hi there!
You seem to have made a bit of a mistake in your post. Luckily, the users of 4chan are always willing to help you clear this problem right up! You appear to have used a tripcode when posting, but your identity has nothing at all to do with the conversation! Whoops! You should always remember to stop using your tripcode when the thread it was used for is gone, unless another one is started! Posting with a tripcode when it isn't necessary is poor form. You should always try to post anonymously, unless your identity is absolutely vital to the post that you're making!
Now, there's no need to thank me - I'm just doing my bait to help you get used to the anonymous image-board culture!

>>14410664
Straw. Go read the book. I have confidence in the author, not sure about you.

>>14410716
You’re an idiot

>>14410892
Not straw, merely the truth of the matter.

>>14410976
>I am scared of the book
Then check his YouTube. Geez

>>14410892
Hi there!
You seem to have made a bit of a mistake in your post. Luckily, the users of 4chan are always willing to help you clear this problem right up! You appear to have used a tripcode when posting, but your identity has nothing at all to do with the conversation! Whoops! You should always remember to stop using your tripcode when the thread it was used for is gone, unless another one is started! Posting with a tripcode when it isn't necessary is poor form. You should always try to post anonymously, unless your identity is absolutely vital to the post that you're making!
Now, there's no need to thank me - I'm just doing my bait to help you get used to the anonymous image-board culture!

>>14410985
So you are finally admitting you have no idea what you are talking about? Seems to be pattern with you, someone challenges your ideals, and since you can’t defend them you resort to deflection.