/lit/ - Literature

hemmingway iz for babbys

Brett's pretty rude. Just because Jake is impotent doesn't mean that they can't have a relationship. If she really loved him the relationship would happen, consummation or not.

Love that ending. Only one I like more is Gatsby's.

The baton is his Jake's penis.

The baton is Jake's penis.

>>1436843

>pretty rude

Dude, she's a straight up whore.

>>1436812
what book is this from?

>>1436905
or lack thereof

>>1436917
No, she's not. Are you 16 or just an old virgin?

She's confused. She would love to have a relationship with Jake but permanent impotence really is a problem. She will someday want to have children, but that will be impossible. She will frequently want to make love, but that will be impossible. She can't live a life like that. She can't have an unfulfilled love like that.

That's not being a whore. That's being realistic. I wouldn't be in a sexless marriage. Most people wouldn't want that either.

>>1437403

She sleeps with everyone in the book including the jew. She's a whore.

>>1437409
Ok, she's a whore to you.
>>1437403
I also agree with you.
And I'm pretty sure Jake is a big part of the not-wanting-to-be-a-part-of-holding-her-back lifestyle. It's not just her not wanting to marry him now, but both sides wanting it and both sides finding it impossible to lever their hopes with their reality.
Does that sound like a rant? I hope it doesn't. I just liked this book.

>>1437409
No, she's not. Are you 16 or just an old virgin?

A woman can be as sexually expressive as a man. Having multiple partners is not the mark of a whore. It's the mark of someone who has a healthy enjoyment of sex. Women like sex too. For every straight man that has sex, a straight woman has sex too. Sex happens in pairs (which you might not understand because you've never had sex).

>>1436943
The Sun Also Rises

>>1436943
>>1436943
>>1436943
>>1436943
>>1436943
>>1436943
>>1436943
>>1436943
>>1436943
answer please.

>>1437434
it is, regardless of gender.

>>1436843
A large percentage of people would disagree. Sex is an important part of a relationship. With sex the boundary between "friend" and "partner" is crossed. Jake wants Brett in a way that he can never possibly have her. The war disabled that part of his body, dashing his hopes for a relationship with her. Both of them realize how sad that is but there is no recourse. That's why the book is so depressing. It's a shitty situation, both wish it were different, but there is no possible solution.

>>1437434

She spelt with ALL of his friends AND his favourite bullfighter! She slept with the fucking jew for fucks sake! She basically shits all over him the entire book and he takes it because he is fucking dickless.

>>1437443
No, it's not. Are you 16 or just an old virgin?

Sex is healthy, normal, and a big part of everyday life. There's nothing wrong with sex between consenting adults. Two people may engage in sex for fun, whatever the state of their personal relationship or connection. Sometimes two people will be in love. Sometimes they will be old friends. Sometimes they will be new acquaintances. Sometimes they will be coworkers.

Sex is ok. It happens. People should enjoy it.

If you read the book and didn't realise Hemingway was telling you how destructive he thought sex was you're a fucking idiot.

>>1437452
Jake wanted a relationship he couldn't possibly have with her. He knew that. She knew that. They weren't dating and they could never date. He should have severed contact and moved on with his life. Instead he traipsed across Europe with her like a lapdog.

She knew their could be no relationship. They couldn't become involved romantically because of his injury. They couldn't remain friends because of Jake's romantic feelings for Brett. She wanted to live her life. She also wanted to drive the message home to Jake: "you and me will never happen, and pursuing me will only bring us both pain."

The Garden of Eden is the spiritual successor to this masterpiece. (also by Hemingway)

A Farewell to Arms is poop. Well-written poop, but poop.

AND THAT IS ALL!

>>1437481
Sexual compatibility and personal compatibility are both essential for a relationship to work. The book is about the horrible split that comes when two people are personally compatible but not sexually. It's a common theme for Hemingway (see Across the River and Into the Trees for another example - a very young woman and a much older man fall in love).

Sex isn't destructive, it's essential. What's sad is that being soul-mates isn't enough to sustain two people in love.

>>1437488
I never thought of Garden of Eden that way, but you're right. It has the same sort of feel and larger message.

Farewell to Arms was a great book, though. Don't call it poop. Didn't the ending get to you at all?

>>1437538
Not who you are responding too, but I didn't feel FTW was his best work. Although it is an interesting question if it's a love story that uses war as a complication of plot or a war story that uses love as a complication of plot. The characters are pretty flat, but the ending is very good. I thought For Whom the Bell Tolls was better, and so was the Old Man and the Sea, but I don't think the OMS is comparable.

Just a reminder: Hemingway was very insistent in his interviews that Jake had all the physical pieces required to make love. His impotence was a mental problem, not a case of missing body parts or actual wounds.

>>1437468
by your fucking logic mothers should fuck their sons, GTFO oedipus.

I don't know how to do that red-text respond-to-person-who-responds-to-you-thing (yeah, I know, I suck), but to the person who said Farewell to Arms WASN'T poop:

I disagree. The ending was good, but not, in my opinion, great, or as hard-hitting as For Whom the Bell Tolls or Sun Also Rises (both of which I read before Farewell to Arms)

I feel that For Whom the Bell Tolls was A Farewell to Arms done right. Especially since FTA was one huge wish-fulfillment on Hemingway's part. He was rejected by a nurse in real life, based Catherine off this nurse, and, instead of being rejected, fucked the shit out of her and got her pregnant. The love scenes between the two annoyed the crap out of me. But at least Hemingway recognized the stupidity of this all in the end and decided to kill of both his fantasy-girl and his fantasy-baby (and to give him some credit, the man DID agonize over it for quite a while).

I'm a huge Hemingway fan. Love his short stories, love most of his novel-length works. But A Farewell to Arms and Old Man and the Sea are two of his classics that I consider garbage.

Just my two pennies.

>>1437591
>A Farewell to Arms and Old Man and the Sea are two of his classics that I consider garbage

>>1437591
The main characters are supposed to feel flat. They're both extremely depressed, needy, and dependent. Neither is a whole person. Each is a shell of a human being, empty, void of real emotion.

>>1437579
I ain't that guy, but you're making a pretty stupid implication.

I am 100% sure he didn't even imply that shit. You are really fucked in the head aren't you man. Have you even HAD sex?

>>1438224
F U som1 will be nice to me soon

>>1437693
>A Farewell to Arms and Old Man and the Sea are two of his classics that I consider garbage.
I can understand that you don't like them as much as his other works, but "garbage"? Really?

That's ridiculous.

bump

Brett deserved a hard slap in the face and a hard non-consensual dicking. Why was she such a cunt all the time?

>>1440088
I don't usually support rape and misogyny, but when I do, it's directed towards Brett from the Sun Also Rises.

Brett definitely deserves to be respected for her sexual autonomy, but damn... why on EARTH would you want to sleep with any of the male characters from The Sun Also Rises? If I had to hang out with them, I would be an alcoholic as well.

>>1440088

Brett getting raped would have made this one of the best novels ever.

The whole junk-being-shot-off part of the book completely went over my head the first time I read it, and I thought the main guy was just being a moody enfant perdu.

The second time through I choked up when he got back to his place, look at his non-dick in the mirror and started crying.

:(

>>1440220

True story. Totally went over my head when I was 16. "He's... what? His wang? Oh, bummer."

>>1440220
You should read the thread and see >>1437576. Jake had all the bits, he just couldn't make them move.

ITT: People who actually read the book. It's a /lit/ miracle.

>>1440294

I also didn't get it when I first read it. I totally misseed the fact he couldn't get hard.

Can this book be thought of as a sort of Lost Generation's Romeo and Juliet?

Two people are in love but can't be together due to circumstances outside of their control. Instead of committing suicide, they both pick up destructive life habits (Brett's sleeping around with losers, Jake's extreme drinking) to destroy their own lives.

>>1440323
2deep4lit

I never really liked Brett but when she used Jake to sleep with he bullfighter I raged so hard. She was a flat out cunt when she did that. She got what was coming to her but yeah I hated her after that.

You guys should read The Short Happy life of Francis Macomber. I hate pretty much all of Hemingway's women but that story is rage inducing.

The funny thing about all the more or less misogynistic views found in Hemingway's novels is that he was the one who constantly cheated on and divorced the women in his life.

>>1440877
If I were Hemingway I probably would have cheated too. He had women coming from all directions.

I don't know. I don't have a problem with Brett fucking other dudes, but probably not a great idea to do it with Jakes friends, right? I'm not saying it's not okay for women to be sexually expressive, but it's a little cruel to constantly remind him of what he can't have, and to subject him to having to hang around with people who have had what he really wants. It's not the sex that's the problem - I think she sort of runs away from Jake through trying to fuck her way out of her problem, and for that reason I'm reluctant to feel anything but pity for her.

Plus, she does fuck people over. She was going to marry Micheal or whatever, then she hopped into bed with the bullfighter. I don't blame her, feeling the way I do about the innards of why shes doing it, but the surface action is that of an absolute bitch/whore. I'm not saying she IS a bitch or a whore, just that on the surface she looks like one.

For that reason I don't think the guy thats defending her out of respect for sexual autonomy really has any legs to stand on - it's not about the sex, it's about the pain. I'm all for people being sexually expressive, but destroying lives just to fuck whoever you want to and not trying to minimize the damage (constantly keeping in contact with Jake - not that I blame her for that - but for clearly not having made it clear with Cohn, for having done Micheal in so abruptly, etc.) is a bitch move.

If you really think acting on every sexual desire at such a cost is exempt from the standards of basic decency on the grounds of supporting sexual autonomy, I'd be tempted to conclude that you are just as naive and inexperienced as the people you're dubbing virgins for not thinking highly of Brett's understandable but still poor sexual behavior.

>>1440911
She was tortured. She wanted to be with Jake but couldn't be. He wouldn't allow it, and she needed to think about her future.

That said, she did want an emotional relationship with Jake. He couldn't handle it, and should have left her alone once it was clear they couldn't be frends without his soul aching. Both were self destructive. Both share the blame.

>>1441080
>implying Brett was tortured
>implying Jake wasn't the one who wanted the relationship more
>implying Jake didn't allow the relationship to happen instead of Brett's sexual needs
Did you even read the book?

>>1441107

Did you even read the first post in this thread?

I meant "garbage" when held up against his other classics. On their own, they still shit on a lot of other writers' best works.

GOSH YOU GUYS ARE SO SENSITIVE! (Sort of like Hemingway. Har har har.)

>>1441080
>He couldn't handle it, and should have left her alone once it was clear they couldn't be frends without his soul aching. Both were self destructive. Both share the blame.

Oh, totally. I'm not saying I'm not sympathetic, or even particularly blaming, I'm just saying the sexual autonomy argument is not enough to exempt her from blame, which is what the person I was responding to seemed to be trying to do. As I said, I have nothing but pity for both of them, but while I largely agree with that posters views about her internal issues, understanding someone's reasons for doing things doesn't necessarily exempt them from judgement for the pain they cause. 'Whore' is a little strong, but even if her weakness and need to look out for herself motivated her actions, they're still shitty things for other characters in the novel, not least of all Jake, who, as the protagonist and a first person narrator, will tend to command a lot more sympathy. I don't feel the novel allows for a complete exemption of Brett from the pain of her actions, and I feel that to take it so is as much or more of a stretch than to assert she's just a dumb whore, which I can understand as a knee-jerk reaction to a thoughtless reading of the text. Perhaps I've misconstrued you and you were tempted towards giving less than the full nuance of your opinion, having encountered someone with strongly polar views of a character compared to you, perhaps not.

>>1440323
That's a real stretch but it would make for an interesting essay. Hem would punch you for suggesting it, though.

The idea is beautiful enough that I'm going to reread the book with Romeo and Juliet in mind.

I really think that Jake brought everything upon himself. He should have gotten out of Brett's life completely. That would have been easier for them both.

He gained nothing good from being around her. All he got was a reminder of an impossible dream. I think her sleeping around was a way to force him to leave. It wasn't nice but Jake was in control of it. All he had to do was leave and he wouldn't have been exposed to it, and it might very well have stopped.

>>1441191
>>1441191

You there, I am about to teach you.

Anonymous 01/09/11(Sun)22:59 No.1441191

That is the top line of a post, with the posters name, the time and date they posted, and their post number. To link to another post someone has made, simply click on their post number and the link will appear in the comment box.

Also: This is a pretty good thread. Congratulations /lit/.

>>1441655

Sweet Jesus! I see the light. Thank you.

(Now I can begin my plan of havoc)

>>1440323
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! Hemingway loved Romeo and Juliet (admitted in a few interviews, I think). He was obsessed with doomed lovers and complex, world-is-against-us relationships. Seeing it as a Lost Generation Romeo and Juliet really sets a good tone for this book and explains a lot of the difficulties and tragedy feel.

The definition of tragedy is that you know something will turn out badly but you do it anyway. That's how everyone in the book acts.

>>1441655
>this is a pretty good thread
suck it tripfags

>>1443099
>The definition of tragedy is that you know something will turn out badly but you do it anyway.

Jimmy knew getting drunk at a party the night before his exams would mean failing them but he did it anyway. This is a tragedy and somehow not simply utter stupidity on his part.

Allow me to tactfully say bullshit.

Jake was only in control of leaving the gang behind, which wouldn't really have made Brett do much of anything differently, excepting that she might have done it at a slower pace and without the prestige of having a--ahem--procurer.

>>1443187
Oedipus knew he would kill his father and sleep with his mother but he did it anyway. This is a tragedy and somehow not simply utter stupidity on his part.

>>1443203
>Doesn't know Oedipus
He, despite his best efforts, does them anyway.

>>1443217
>knows he is wrong but tries to weasel out of it anyway

>>1443286
What makes you think that happens in Oedipus?