/lit/ - Literature

>>14359837
>who is anne fausto stirling

>>14359989
She's a quack.

How do transtards deal with gender being a near metaphysical status and that if they point to biological means to why theyre female they are basically pointing out that they are mentally ill?

Reminder to ignore all pseudointellectual rhetoriticians and instead go and read the complete works of Homer, Pindar, Plato, Aristotle, Sophocles, Euripedes, Hesiod, Aristophones, Herodotus, Sappho, Plutarch, Ovid, Virgil, Lucretius, Arisoto, Horace, St. Augustine, Marcus Aurelius, Rabelais, Dante, Petrarch, Boccaccio, Machiavelli, Luther, Cervantes, Chaucer, the Beowulf poet, Chretien de Troyes, Marie de France, Sterne, Burton, Browne, Wyatt, Sidney, Percy Shelley, Tennyson, Donne, Pope, Dryden, Bacon, Novalis, Schelling, Schlegal, Hegel, Pascal, Lichtenberg, Dickinson, Shakespeare, Ibsen, Dickens, Marlowe, Diderot, Jonson, Goethe, Bunyan, Gibbon, Addison, Smollett, Milton, Johnson, Boswell, Emerson, Quincey, Burke, Spinoza, Leibniz, Hume, Kant, Mary Shelley, Wollstonecraft, Racine, Baudelaire, Valery, Rimbaud, Verlaine, Moliere, Montaigne, Browning, Gray, Holderlin, Schiller, Shaw, Voltaire, Hugo, Balzac, Zola, Colette, Duras, Dumas, Stendhal, Nerval, Flaubert, Mallarme, Malraux, Chateaubriand, Artaud, Poe, Wordsworth, Coleridge, Blake, Byron, Keats, Arnold, Pater, Walter Scott, Swinburne, Rossetti, Carroll, William James, Henry James, Hawthorne, Twain, Melville, Dewey, Bergson, Whitehead, George Eliot, Williams, Frost, Cummings, Crane, Stevens, Whitman, Plath, Trakl, Rilke, Celan, Montale, Neruda, Lorca, Tagore, Manzoni, Peake, Murdoch, Wharton, Wilde, Leopardi, Faulkner, O'Connor, Passos, Nietzsche, Marx, Adorno, Bloch, Lukacs, Bakhtin, Hamsun, Pushkin, Gogol, Tolstoy, Turgenev, Chekhov, Andreyev, Bely, Bulgakov, Gonchorov, Camoes, Pessoa, Queiroz, Saramago, Paz, Borges, Bloy, Pirandello, Huysmans, Lautreamont, Schwob, Casares, Bolano, Cortazar, Lima, Donoso, de Assis, Carpentjier, Celine, Marquez, Unamuno, Gracq, Gide, Jarry, Camus, Conrad, Wells, Hardy, Salinger, Lawrence, Forster, Hrabal, Swift, Bronte, Woolf, Bachelard, Roussel, Beckett, Proust, Nabokov, Joyce, O'Brien, Yeats, Waugh, Heaney, Auden, Hofmannsthal, Mann, Musil, Broch, Zweig, Bachmann. Jelinek, Lessing, Laxness, Simenon,Svevo, Levi, Buzzati, Quasimodo, Llosa, Walser, Kafka, Babel, Schulz, Transtromer, Kertesz, Pavic, Andric, Grossmann,Sillanpää, Linna, Mahfouz, Boll, Grass, Canetti, Pavese, Robbe-Grillet, Blanchot, Perec, Calvino, Bernhard, Gass, Barth, Gaddis, Vollmann, Vidal, Hawkes, DeLillo, Pynchon, McElroy, Soseki, Murasaki, Shonagon, Kawabata, Mishima, Akutagawa, Tanizaki, Dazai, Oe, Xinjiang, Yan, Kosztolanyi, Gombrowicz, Ishiguro, Eco, Coetzee, Auerbach, Benjamin, Barthes, Pasternak, Derrida, Deleuze, Bateson, Foucault, Lyotard, Mcluhan, Eichenbaum, Steiner, Munro, Carson, Handke, Theroux, Patrick White, Alfau, Marias, Enard, Claude Simon, Elizabeth Bishop, Markson, Lowry, Bellow, Dara

>>14360350
They don't deal with it. Many of the activists at least are fully aware of the many contradictions in their ideology but they're willing to continue with it. They're not reasonable people.

>>14359659
transgenderism is religiously motivated. Think how the priests of cybeles cult mutilated their genitals to honour the godess, trannies are basically the same but for progressivism, which ultimately is about replacing the sacred with (specially sexual) self expression and the ritualised acceptance of 'difference'. All standards and all concepts of dignity have been banished stigmatised as 'oppressive'. The sexual hijinks of the left aren't at all about sex, or eroticism, they are a sign of desperation, guilt and self loathing. They might talk about 'pride' but it's obvious it's all about shame, of wanting their sexual 'truth' to be recognised by an authoritarian other. These people are in a state of deep spiritual abjection and cut off from any meaningful tradition beyond liberalism, they grew up with children's entertainment made by pedophiles and instantly available internet porn.

>>14360458
100% this

>>14360458
>replacing the sacred with (specially sexual) self expression
what about (voluntarily) celibate trannies?
i think in general you are right but i think it's worth pointing out that beyond "transsexuality as understood by modern leftism" there is something else which has existed before leftism and will continue to exist after it. all leftism has done is appropriate something that already existed and made it its own, it didn't invent it out of nothing

>>14360362
>Bloy, Schwob, Munro
Such a fine selection of the lesser known, but great authors makes me want to take a look at the people I don't know in this list

Will we ever know the real first cause that makes someone a tranny? Are they to scared to say it might be biological and throwing biodetermnists abother bone?

>>14360742
autistic child + absent father/overbearing mother combo.

>>14360750
people shit on Freud but he was kinda right about everything

>>14360350
>How do transtards deal with gender being a near metaphysical status
the same way they deal with all metaphysical quantities: they reduce them to their base physical representation, grind them into dust and destroy them to the point where it is impossible to even refer to them in dialog because they have been reduced to mere words
when i talk to people about gender i have to say things like "people with wombs and soft features and natural breasts who have never known what it is like to be male or have a penis" because there is no way to evoke the concept of natural femininity unsullied by conscious representation without it. there used to be a word "woman" which fulfilled this purpose, until it was destroyed by leftists like you might pull down the statue of a despised dictator
destruction is all they know how to do, everything they do is about destroying things at a metaphysical level. every time they talk about "deconstructing" or "transgressing boundaries" or being "critical" they are talking about grinding yet another of the last shreds of meaning in this world into dust

On one hand they claim that the real self is something other than the physical body, in a new form of Gnostic dualism, yet at the same time they embrace a materialist philosophy in which only the material world exists. They say gender is purely a social construct, while asserting that a person can be "trapped" in the wrong body. They say there's no meaningful differences between man and woman, yet they rely on rigid sex stereotypes to argue that "gender identity" is real while human embodiment is not. They claim that truth is whatever a person says it is, yet they believe there's a real self to be discovered inside that person. They promote a radical expressive individualism in which people are free to do whatever they want and define the truth however they wish, yet they try to enforce acceptance of transgender ideology in a paternalistic way.

Only a cult could twist somebodies mind so badly.

>>14360742
A few are definitely born with intersex characteristics, just like a few are born with extra chromosomes. But that just establishes a baseline.

A major, but not the only, cause is middle-age declines in test levels. This is where the some of the older, creepier ones like Donald McCloskey come from.

>>14360724
there was a framework for such people in some traditional cultures. but that was swept away by modernity, for exceptions to be recognised and given a place, rules have to exist. I don't really think I'm ever going to view them as normal, obviously very troubled people, but they are fine by me as long as they are not obnoxious identity politics types.

>>14360807
So if they just said that they're ascendant faggots who want to look and or be fem/masc you'd be cool with them?

>>14360458
>authoritarian other

>>14359837
/thread

>>14361662
What the hell are you asking me?

>>14361968
I'm asking if you would be cool with trannies if they admitted they just want the secondary sexual characteristics instead of arguing some nonsense about actually being the other sex.
Like if Buck Angel said they were female despite looking like this.

>>14362049
I wouldn't be okay with degenerate shit just because degenerates are honest about being degenerate.

>>14361662
>>14362049
Definitely. If it was seen as a pure aethetic choce, a 'Fetish" if you will, i would have much less of a problem with them. There is a certain standard deviation of Humans and we could place them as odd, simple as. In adition, Id wager the nuber of self proclaimed "transexuals" would go way down into the ought point oughts, since again, it is simply seen as a mear want rather than a moral imperative. it would stop a lot of lower midwits from being seduced into something they otherwise would not be susceptible to. either becoming a more masculine female, or more feminine male.

>>14362097
Then why waste your time crafting a complaint about how they're ideologically inconsistent when your hate for them has nothing to do with the inconsistency or paternalistic enfocement?

>>14362118
I'm not "crafting a complaint," I'm pointing out philosophical inconsistency because unlike you dishonest bastards, I value the truth.

>>14362116
Glad to find someone who has a reasonable opinion on this.

>>14362133
You don't value truth or you would not have a problem with them past the ideological inconsistency goof ball

>>14362145
Would you have a problem with pedophiles if they were honest about being pedophiles? From what I'm getting from you it would be wrong to hate them since they're honest about wanting to fuck kids.

>>14360764
>this being typed with phallic fingers while looking at a vagina-monitor and putting phallic cheetohs in your vagina-mouth, only to shit them out hours later into the vagina-toilet-bowl in the form of a phallic tube of feces

>>14362161
Firstly its pretty sad you have to resort to a comparison to pedophila in your attempt to criticise consenting adults participating in body modification.
But to answer your question, I have a problem with pederasts not really one with pedophiles since they haven't hurt anybody. Its possible to be attracted to someone and not rape them, pedophiles are just in the unfortunate position of never being able to fuck what they're attracted to without it being rape. It's a shame that pedophiles, like incels, who haven't done anything to hurt anyone are looked upon with total disgust in our society.

>>14362210
I didn't compare transgenderism to pedophilia you idiot. Mentioning two different things doesn't automatically mean there's a comparison taking place. You asked me whether or not I would accept transgenderism if they were honest about being fetishists and my answer was no because crossdressing and pretending to be a sex you're not is immoral. Somehow from this you come to the conclusion that I'm wrong to point out philosophical inconsistencies in transgender ideology, as if finding something immoral means you can no longer criticize it.

I pointed out how stupid this was by applying your logic to pedophilia. If it's wrong to further criticize something you find immoral then you have no grounds to criticize honest pedophiles who touch kids.

>>14360742
Mostly yes
Most trans people I know in private admit they believe it has neurodevelopmental causes, but don't believe that means there are other ways for it be be treated, and feel that admitting so will add more fuel to the fire of eugenics against them

>>14362279
Fine, we can pretend your jumping to pedophila instead of something like muder doesn't have to do with your perception of degenerate sexuality.


> You asked me whether or not I would accept transgenderism if they were honest about being fetishists and my answer was no because crossdressing and pretending to be a sex you're not is immoral.
They arent pretending to be a different sex retard, they're being upfront about what sex they are.

My issue with your "further critique" is that there is nothing they could do that you would find acceptable. And by using this "further critique" youre hiding that fact. because even if they were ideologically consistent in your view you would still hate them. Stop cowering behind dumb excuses and just be honest that you hate that trannies exist instead of pretending there is some acceptable way for them to.

>>14360742
When it comes to actual dysphoria it's not likely because there is a chicken and the egg scenario. Brain scans show that trannies do have differences but brain scans don't tell us whether they cause transgender identity or are the result of identifying and acting as transgender, otherwise known as neuroplasticity. Even so, these scans say nothing of biological sex. If there is a biological basis for people to think they're the opposite sex, this doesn't actually make it so.

>>14362434
This is so stupid. My personal views towards them are irrelevant to the criticism I'm making. Their inconsistency doesn't go away just because the person making the criticism finds them to be intrinsically immoral.

Murder is intrinsically immoral. When a murderer is philosophically inconsistent it's okay to point that out. Just to be extra clear for your pea brain, this is not me comparing transgenderism to murderers.

>>14362408
transgenderism is an ideologically motivated dysgenics aimed at altering the concept of the human according to liberal dogma.I get some of these people just want to be left alone and live a more or less normal life, but the totalitarian progressive juggernaut isn't going to stop on its own. even if its just a minority of fanatics within these communities, these are the people setting the agenda demanding censorship, targeting children, it is obvious to any reasonable person that these ideologies have to be attacked exposed and confronted.

>>14362440
I think the only usage brain scans have on this topic is with regards to what sections light up with certain behavior and what it correlates with, with regards to those regions.

Like when a schizophrenic hears voices, what part of the brain is being stimulated the most.

But we can't look at a brain scan and say, "Yep, female brain in male body," because that's entirely bunk -- not that I'm implying you said such a thing.

>>14360742
I think it is a problem of parsing in a very self-seen, binary-orthodox view on gender expression. I.E. If I like this thing, I must be gender that likes this thing. It is an easy to digest, absolutist framework.

>>14360316
cope

>>14362468
>Murder is intrinsically immoral.
Why?

>>14362949
Because I said so. It's not important.

>>14362468
You're right it doesn't, what makes it go away is the fact that you've idiotically conflated sex and gender in your critique. Getting into that with you would be a waste of time though, unlike showing to the audience that your (inaccurate) criticism doesn't come from a respectable position of wanting to make corrections to "trans ideology" (by your admission no correction could be satisfactory), but rather from a hate based desire to dehumanize trannies.

>>14362949
murder is by definition bad. it means impermissible killing

>>14363018
John Money pioneered the notion that sex is distinct from gender. He claimed to have successfully raised twin boys as brother and sister after a botched circumcision and used this as proof of "intersexuality," that infants aren't born with a specific gender and that and child might be raised as either boy or girl. In reality the young boy who was raised as a girl always felt that something was wrong, despite all the hormones, surgery, and social conditioning he was subjected to. The boy eventually killed himself.

So yeah, you're right. It would be a waste of time trying to convince me to accept a distinction between sex and gender.

>>14363018
You can find trannies disgusting (failed men, or at least seeming so) and also find the standard justifications inconsistent. I value manhood as a man, you are asking me to devalue myself in not being disgusted (I don't think I have a choice to not be disgusted but if I did I wouldn't go out of my way to suppress it). I will be entirely civil when meeting a tranny but I am inherently disgusted and if asked directly will admit this.

>>14363072
> forcing someone to perform as a gender they aren't comfortable with might make them kill themselves
I agree

>>14362209
this but unironically

>>14363121
I didn't ask you what you thought about it. I was explaining where the notion that sex is distinct from gender came from and what it was based on. To this day it's nothing more than a blanket assertion with no evidence to ground it. People like you say that sex is distinct from gender because you want sex to be distinct from gender.

>>14363018
What exactly is inaccurate about this? >>14360807

>>14360350
The way I interpret it is that they are like a functioning schizophrenic person, who knows something is different about them and knows they exhibit a cluster of symptoms known as schizophrenia.
But they want to avoid a diagnosis at all costs to retain their autonomy.

>>14359659
I have actually read OP's pic related. AMA, can post pic of my copy if necessary

>>14363192
>They say gender is purely a social construct, while asserting that a person can be "trapped" in the wrong body.
This is wrong because transsexuals don't claim to be trapped in the wrong body, they recognise they are male/female and want the other set of secondary sexual characteristics (some opt for an attempt at changing the primary).

> They say there's no meaningful differences between man and woman, yet they rely on rigid sex stereotypes to argue that "gender identity" is real while human embodiment is not.
This is wrong because trannies obviously recognise there are physical differences between how males and females develop or they wouldn't desire to modify their body. This >>14362049 is a man, and pic related is a woman

> They claim that truth is whatever a person says it is, yet they believe there's a real self to be discovered inside that person.
I don't think trannies claim this but even if they did it's internally consistent. If truth is what I say it is than my real (true) self is whatever I discover (say it is).

> They promote a radical expressive individualism in which people are free to do whatever they want and define the truth however they wish, yet they try to enforce acceptance of transgender ideology in a paternalistic way.
This is just a valid complaint, liberals are superduper paternalistic.

But for clarification on the gender vs sex conflation in this example >>14363072 one of these >>14362049 was forced to look and behave like pic related so they offed themselves. To avoid making people kill themselves picrel should be able to look like this if they want to despite having a penis, and >>14362049 should beable to look like that despite having a vagina.

>>14362881
t. mid dilation.

>>14363169
*blocks your path*
Why is it that the people on this board who have the strongest opinions on trannies have never read anything relevant?

>>14359659
Why would you ever give even a sliver of a shit about what literal biological failures think/want?

>>14363419
>more relativism and deconstructionism
wew

>>14359659
Similar to how Muslims are fundamentally opposed to much of the left but ally with them because they give them gibs many trannies don't believe in much of that feminist gender nonsense.
Don't confuse feminist left-wing talking points with the actual beliefs if tranners.

>>14362949
The answer depends on how you define moral and immoral and your understanding of the nature of the universe is structured. You can sit around all day arguing this shit but it's always going to come out to something along the lines of "Because it's bad to do harm to other people."

>>14363446
Absolutes don't exist christcuck/platonist. Have any actual founded criticism? I doubt you've actually read the book.

>>14363419
Gender is a valid distinction from sex insofar as it describes a set of cultural performances that are reactions to sex, but it's completely invalid as a description of some kind of metaphysical man-ness or woman-ness that exists totally independent of sex. There's just no evidence for it.

>>14363472
>"Absolutes don't exist"
>uses an absolute in that statement

>>14363419
>>14363472

queer theory is just slave morality and liberal humanism at its most sickening a mere ideological justification for the progressive managerial state and its programs of totalitarian social engineering. (which we all know are irrevocably leading up to the normalization of pedophilia) you progs have your own absolutes, crude arbitrary, but absolutes nonetheless, ''equality'', ''human rights'' and sexual repression/liberation. In the end, tribalism precedes reasoned argument, this is a war, progs know its a war, it is the right who has been naive in trying to argue in good faith. remember, these people are deranged

> muh politically correct victim lifestyle is subversive and edgy even though it is aggresively promoted by academia and all major corporations

>>14360768
The word 'man' used to mean 'person'. You became a person by owning things, having power, powerful friends and generally being worth listening to.

I asked my mother why someone was referred to as a man in a mediaeval text i found when i was 6 and she was studying Middle English. The whole idea of strict gender distinctions as we know it is only centuries old and shaped by Puritan, then Victorian morals.

In the time of Juvenal, roughly when Jesus lived, there were so many eunichs in the middle east as to constitute a de-facto third gender. Not all were impotent sexually, but usually sterile. Even Aristotle, usually rock solid sensible, explained that a small man is still a man, but a small woman is like some kind of woods animal. Maybe he was roasting someone he knew, maybe he was just working something out.
The whole idea of gender is malleable in the hands of culture, we can shape the shaping being carried out now, without regressing to some savage either/or p[ast that never existed anyway.

>>14362209
>looking at the universe through your anoose makes a funny picture

>>14363762
>I asked my mother why someone was referred to as a man in a mediaeval text i found when i was 6 and she was studying Middle English. The whole idea of strict gender distinctions as we know it is only centuries old and shaped by Puritan, then Victorian morals.
you know words can have more than one meaning, right?

>>14360742
unironically anime

>>14363408
>This is wrong because transsexuals don't claim to be trapped in the wrong body, they recognise they are male/female and want the other set of secondary sexual characteristics

The problem the guy was pointing out was their inconsistent appeals to "gender essence" or whatever you want to call it. Typically they deny gender as being an essential characteristic in order to show people that "men ACTUALLY can turn into women because man and woman are socialized categories". This is consistent in itself, but not when it is combined with their typical justifications for why the change should happen which appeal to internal gender dissonance, that is, a problem of form. The moral justification for transgenderism is always some variation of "society does not recognize my true essence", that is, people are supposed to sympathize with them precisely because their gender essence is not being recognized as "real". But earlier we learned that gender essence is not real, and that is why the transgender project can succeed.

I will admit that all of this only becomes truly problematical through state paternalism, because when the state recognizes their project as moral and possible this contradiction is unleashed. Non-trans people are told by the trannies that their masculinity and femininity were mindfucked into them by their parents, while simultaneously being told by the state that the tranny's identity is a real and essential thing that was not mindfucked into them