/lit/ - Literature

>LOST revived the genre.

You thought you could sneak that bit of trolling in, did you?

>LOST revived the genre

lol no

>Harlan Ellison would fondle your mom if he encountered her in the grocery store, and wouldn't care if you said anything about it.

If he'd try that, I'm not fighting him with words but with fists.

well, you convinced me, OP. Fuck Harlem Allison!

>He's responsible for "Babylon 5," one of the worst science fiction shows in television history and the major show responsible for the sci-fi drought before LOST revived the genre.

OP is a troll, just like Harlan Ellison:

>A friend said “oh gee, you should sell it, they sold Cormac McCarthy’s typewriter.” And I said, “yeah, Cormac McCarthy who ripped off my story “A Boy and His Dog” to do “The Road.” I said how much did they get $20?” And he said “they got $220,000 because they gave it to charity and I said “that’s nice.” So now I’m terrified to throw it out and a dealer came to me and said if you need money now would be the time to sell it because they sold the Kerouac. I asked if they got $220,000 and he said “no, that got $116.” That’s a big difference. He said that mine would be somewhere in between and I said “let’s try it.”

http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2010/12/29/would-you-pay-40000-for-an-antique-typewriter/

>>1435645

I would pay $117 for Kerouac's typewriter.

>>1435649
It wouldn't help you write that novel any better than the computer you're posting from.

>>1435657

No shit, Sherlock. Did you figure that one out all on your own?

>>1435657

oh hai Harlem Allison

>>1435664
Then why pay for an overpriced heavily outdated machine, unless you're starting a museum? Kerouac would probably make fun of you for your fetishism of him.

>>1435645
Trolling implies insincerity. L. Ron Hubbard was a troll; Harlan Ellison is just a dick. Learn the difference.

>>1435699

Ellison is clearly being insincere is his assertion that McCarthy "ripped off" his story.

Learn to read, especially between the lines.

>>1435797
He's really not. I understand how you might take it that way, but you're just wrong.

He's not kidding. He's not being humorously ironic. He's not pretending in any way.

He's really not. You're mistaken. This is coming from someone who appreciates Lenny Bruce and Andy Kaufman. Harlan Ellison is not kidding. Not one bit.

Harlan Ellison is not a troll. He is entirely sincere in his bullshit. He actually believes he has the right to be a huge douchebag, that everyone else is wrong, that fondling your grandma is his prerogative.

He's 100% sincere douchebag. There's nothing disingenuous about him. He believes his own hype.

he looks like a female dutch teacher I had, dunno what that says but he really does

>>1435822
lol

Sure he's a douchebag. Sure he's a pervert. But damn can he write.

FYI: Here's what Ellison said about the McCarthy quote on his forum:

RE. CORMAC McCARTHY CASUAL IMPISHNESS [My caps]

This is something being -- as usual -- blown out of all shape or context by people with too much electricity at their command, and too little history to back it up with a smile and common sense. To these frog-croaks, EVERYthing is a cataclysm, not just a casual throwaway line.

I said it, in context, and I thought it was fair and true and IN CONTEXT -- noting the way the interviewer was trying to lead me -- it was mildly impish and funny and ... who the hell cares?

If they need another reason to pillory someone too good for them, so be it. To quote Dorothy Parker --for the millionth time -- "If it falls in the ocean, well, hell, it falls in the ocean."

I have better things to do with my remaining time on Earth or anywhere else, than to bother myself with the lack of approbation of internet strangers. Here today, gone to...lunch.

>>1435878
That's the thing, though. His abrasive personality amplifies his mediocre writing.

He's not really good at all. What have you read by him that you think is outstanding? I can't think of anything at all.

Lots of great writers are assholes and might be excused for it, but Harlan Ellison? What's he done that's worth excusing his behavior for? His career is based around him being an attention whore. He's in the same class as Puck from The Real World or Snookie from Jersey Shore.

>>1435909

Just for starters, some stories by the old curmudgeon that will outlive _YOU_:

"Life Hutch"

"'Repent, Harlequin! 'Said the Ticktockman"

"I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream"

"The Beast that Shouted Love at the Heart of the World"

"A Boy and His Dog"

"The Whimper of Whipped Dogs"

"The Deathbird"

"Adrift Just Off the Islets of Langerhans: Latitude 38° 54' N, Longitude 77° 00' 13" W"

"Croatoan"

"Jeffty Is Five "

“How Interesting: A Tiny Man”

"Paladin of the Lost Hour"

"The Man Who Rowed Christopher Columbus Ashore"

>mfw anyone that likes this guys writing likes sci-fi and, as such, has no idea what constitutes good writing

>>1437153
And Twilight will outlive _YOU_. What's your point, kiddo?

>>1437184

Gene Wolfe:

What we now normally consider the mainstream – so called realistic fiction – is a small literary genre, fairly recent in origin, which is likely to be relatively short lived.... It's a matter of whether you're content to focus on everyday events or whether you want to try to encompass the entire universe. F you ga back to the literature written in ancient Greece or Rome, or during the Middle Ages and much of the Renaissance, you'll see writers trying to write not just about everything that exists but about everything that could exist.

>>1437203

If you go*

>>1435609

>Babylon 5
>one of the worst sci-fi shows

BSG only wishes it had a consistent storyline.

>>1437184

>mfw anyone that likes this guys writing likes sci-fi and, as such, has no idea what constitutes good writing

>mfw anyone who can't put an apostrophe in "guy's" when it's a possessive understand writing at all

>>1437196

>What's your point, kiddo?

Like Lovecraft, Ellison will have a "Library of America" collection within 10 years. You'll have AIDS within 5.

>>1437259
hurf durf AIDS XD anon is leejun

>>1435808
He hates anything and everyone related to the consumption-side of media (the press, critics, his own readers, etc.) Yeah, that makes him an asshole. But in pretty much any other realm he is otherwise quite pleasant to talk to.

In other words, he is a writer.

>>1437311
>But in pretty much any other realm he is otherwise quite pleasant to talk to.

Yes, you're right: when I met him, he was very civil too.

>>1437311
He grabs tits

This is why I only read Mormon writers. They have a distinct temperament which makes for great fiction.

Even the use of his name OP - it is copyrighted to his Kilimanjaro Corporation

He was creative consultant on Babylon 5, and it was one of the best shows of all time on television you filthy motherfucking nigger
He DID create The Starlost, a hilariously bad science fiction show from the 1970s that was taken out of his control and he changed his credit to Cordwainer Bird

b-but, he wrote I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream

one of the most torturous exercises in dystopian fiction ever

I gotta give him credit for that

>>1438373
I am sure he meant that in a gratulatory way...

>>1438679
Yeah I agree it's a pretty torturous read

Harlan Ellison is angry. That is what drives his writing; he is severely underwhelmed by the world in which he lives and is using writing as a way to cope with the inanities and banality of day-to-day life. That is why his writing has such an anger to it. That is why he is so unbearably endearing (and just plain unbearable) in person.

By the by, every Harlan Ellison work I've ever read I've read as a result of either buying his books or checking them out from the library. Know why? Because he's right. There is no right for anyone to steal his intellectual property. Because of the rise of the Internet those who grew up with it have this delusion that because the Internet makes everything free nobody is obligated to pay for anything. They feel entitled to whatever they want or desire and raise bloody hell when they are denied this.

Intellectual property is property nonetheless and to blatantly steal it is underhanded and grossly selfish.

Not to mention the fucker is a brilliant writer, and this is coming from someone who hates science fiction

The little bastard can write, and he lives in a literal temple to his own childhood. Whatever else, he's entertaining to watch.

That photo is hilarious.

It looks like Mrs. Doubtfire got a haircut and is feelin' so sexy from it she has to coquettishly nibble her glasses frames.

>>1438697
>Intellectual property is property nonetheless

Ooh look, I just stole your intellectual property right there by quoting your post. I feel so sinful

OP's right about Harlan Ellison being a massive cockfag. But he's a damn good writer.

Anyone have the story of him pissing off the Penny Arcade guys and them making him look like an ass on stage?

>libraries
>borrowing a book from a friend
>all of these are as bad as piracy according to ellison

>>1438761

So Tycho and I are up in front of the audience with Harlen, and Hank (the con organizer) presents us with some jester hats (“Fool’s caps”). Tycho and I put ours on because we are polite, but Harlen - who is apparently too cool for school - refuses to wear his. I turn to him and say, “Don’t you want your hat?” and he tells me to fuck off. This caught me off guard, I mean I have no clue who this fucking coot is. Then he points to a pad of paper he has and asks if I’m aware that his paper is also called foolscap. Now, I’ve never heard that term before, I pretty much just call it paper so I shake my head “no.” This really isn’t a fair question. I mean, it would be like me asking him about Photoshop or if he can remember what he had for lunch. The guy was essentially setting me up to look stupid in front of all these people. So then he asks me if I even attended college and I say “No, I did not.” Then, he says “did you at least finish high school?”
I said that I had, but you couldn’t really hear me because the audience is laughing at me along with Harlen. So once they stop, I turn to him and I say, “While I’ve got you here I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed the Star Wars stuff you wrote.”

>>1438831


I didn’t know him very well but I felt like mistaking him for someone who writes Star Wars books was the sort of insult that would cut right to his brittle old bones. The audience seemed to agree because I could hear a lot of ooooooooh’s and oh no’s over the laughing. Some people in the front even suggested a fist fight was now in order. I look over at Harlen and he’s staring at me like he wants to choke me. He then says “so that’s how it’s going to be.” Now keep in mind that he’s the one that started hostilities when he told me to fuck off. I’m just the one that finished it. The guy tells some pretty funny stories about how witty he is and how he’s always saying clever things at exactly the right moment. When confronted with someone who was unwilling to take any crap from him he had no clever retort. The great writer just glared at me and then walked off stage. I don’t doubt that given enough time he could craft a perfectly worded and extremely vicious response but up there on stage in front of all his fans the man didn’t have shit.
I don’t blame Harlen for not knowing who I am. I honestly don’t expect him to. I don’t expect anyone that old to know who I am. I did expect him to be polite and at least respect the fact that I was a fellow guest of honor. That was apparently too much to ask for from the great Harlen Elison.

>>1438831
Penny Arcade loves to not know. Nothing makes a Penny Arcade guy happier than not knowing the answer to your question. 'Hey man, what's the capital of Zaire?' 'Shoot, I don't know that shit! I'm just keeping it real, just keeping it real.' Yeah, you're keeping it real, real dumb. Penny Arcade hates knowledge. Shit, if you're afraid a Penny Arcade guy will break into your house, and you wanna save your money, you know what you do? You put the money in a book. Cause Penny Arcade don't read! Books are like kryptonite to Penny Arcade. 'Here's a book.' 'NOOOOOOOOO! NOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Not a book!'

>>1438745

It would be, if that were copyrighted and I claimed ownership of it. But since I wrote it anonymously and don't intend to register it with the Library of Congress it's not really theft, you putz.

>>1439647
Lolno. You really don't understand copyright. There is no need to register it with the library of congress, though there is no harm in doing so.

>>1439655

There's a substantial difference between I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream, one of the most reprinted stories in the English language, and a fifteen-word brainfart on an anonymous imageboard. Even you should be able to agree with that.

This is why I admire people for their work, not for their personalities.

Harlan Ellison is a gigantic cockbag and I hate him as a person. However, I respect his talent as a writer and have learned a lot by reading his stories. I think he does good work, even though he's a fat sloppy cunt of a human being. I feel the same way about Julian Assange and Marvin Minsky, who are also wretched creatures masquerading as people, but who happen to be talented.

Basically, the creator is the least important part of the equation - the only thing that matters is the final product.

Also, intellectual property is a bunch of horse shit. You can't fucking own ideas.

>>1439670

You can't own ideas. But you can own expressions. Which is what copyright is about. Saying "you can't own ideas" is like saying "You can't own art."

If I cut down a tree, carve it into art, and generally spend time investing my skill in making it more valuable, I deserve compensation for my labor. If I take a concept, hone it into entertainment, and likewise spend time and talent to make it attractive, I deserve compensation for my labor.

And that's what it comes down to. You're not paying for some abstract concept or bits. You're paying for the person who used their skill to produce something you want or enjoy. You are providing them with a means to make a living so they will continue to produce what you enjoy.

You monumental cock.

Paladin of the Lost Hour is one of the greatest pieces of short fiction ever written. Harlan Ellison is an extremely gifted writer.

Harlan Ellison is also a gigantic cockbag. He has literally spent his entire life being an abrasive, confrontational asshole with a bloated sense of self worth. He also thinks he is a bad ass because he intimidated most of the science fiction writing community in the 60s and 70s. That's like thinking your are a bully because your D&D club is scared of you.

He also thinks that anything that even remotely resembles one of his stories was "stolen" from him.

He's also something like 4'9" which may explain a good amount of his attitude.

>>1435609
Oh hey, I made this thread when /lit/ was still one of the "trial" boards.

But yeah, every time I hear this fuckwit speak it sends me into an uncontrollable fit of rage.

>>1439668
I am not the subject in question. The subject is copyright. Now, does copyright see a difference between those things? It does in how it's written. In how it's practiced then no, but then me downloading the odd album, copying friends' CDs, DVDs and mp3s, playing other people's songs in a bar or whatever are generally not taken to court, and are therefore fine.

The thing is that Harlan is short and in the days before he married his present fifth wife... he could not resist going about with giant showgirl types, all of them topping him by two or three feet.

The story goes, then, that Harlan approached one of these giraffelike women, fixed her with his glittering eye, and said, "What would you say to a little fuck?"

And she looked down at him and said, "I would say, 'Hello, little fuck.'"

-Isaac Asimov

>>1439719

>Theft is okay as long as I don't get caught

Oh wow.

>>1439699
lolno. Why should it focus on the individual at all? I mean, if it was to reward or compensate effort, what about people who make no money from their efforts, because society doesn't want those efforts?

Insofar as what you produce benefits society, you should be encouraged to continue to benefit society. That is what the basis of IP is. Not because you did shit; no one cares about that. That's just an argument meant to emotionally blackmail you.

>>1439728
By one of the possible standards of the guy I replied to. Also, where I live, none of those things is theft.

Either you accept that a "brainfart" has the same status as a masterpiece to copyright, and live by that moral value, or you accept the law in practice is a little fuzzy for a reason.

Oh, Ellison was also expelled from OSU for sucker-punching one of his professors who was critical of his writing.

Rumor has it, Ellison sent the professor a signed copy of each of his published works and when the professor died he tried to make a big scene at the guys funeral.

>>1439719
>If I am not pursued for doing something wrong, then I must not be doing anything wrong.

Nice fallacy, bro. Look, I don't want to rain on your piracy parade, but IP law exists for an important reason - to make it possible for people to be professional producers of IP, and to encourage the production of "good" writing, art, music, software, etc.

The fact that you don't physically remove something from the creator doesn't mean that you're avoiding remunerating the creator for their work. You can argue that you're not creating a "lost sale", but you can't argue that in a world in which all others acted as you do, it would be impossible to make a living by producing intellectual property - and it's easy to argue that the quality of intellectual pursuits would drop once no one could afford to be a professional writer, musician, etc. Specialization is one of the main roads to increased quality - make it impossible to pursue something as a career, and rest assured that quality in that field will suffer.

>>1439736
>implying no art was produced before copyright law

I didn't know we had *IAA gimps astroturfing on /lit/...

>>1439731
>lolno. Why should it focus on the individual at all?

Because the individual produces what you want, and if you want more, the wellbeing of that individual is to some degree your concern.

>I mean, if it was to reward or compensate effort, what about people who make no money from their efforts, because society doesn't want those efforts?

No, it's to encourage effort that produces a result you want to see more. If you like a thing, it's logical to assume you would like to see more things like that thing, and it's logical to give the creator of that thing an incentive to continue making similar things.

>Insofar as what you produce benefits society, you should be encouraged to continue to benefit society. That is what the basis of IP is.

No. Not society. Individuals. A lot of art doesn't benefit "society", but it does benefit some subset thereof. "Society" doesn't owe the creator, but it behooves the individuals to reward the work they enjoy.

>Not because you did shit; no one cares about that.

You don't care that your favorite writer worked to craft a story you enjoy enough to pay him for it? You're an irredeemable human being.

>That's just an argument meant to emotionally blackmail you.

No, it's an argument meant to point out that you're not paying for an item, you're paying for an action. You're just emotionally, morally, and mentally retarded.

>>1439741

>implying art produced before the introduction of IP wasn't entirely the result of patronage on the part of the well-to-do.
>further implying that law doesn't need to adjust to keep pace with technology as society transitions from a world of physical copies to trivially reproduceable bits in a cloud

I don't think anyone's implying Harlan Ellison isn't a raging technophopic Luddite. He's said on several occasions that the Internet needs to be destroyed. I think he's just frustrated (fairly so) that his work is being stolen by people with entitlement complexes.

>>1439765

It's true. He's an enormous cockbag, and so are the pirates he hates. It doesn't have to be either/or.

>>1439748
Those are all false arguments, and you should feel bad. The linchpin(s) are thus:
1. The authors who may spend hours on a story and never get published are not compensated for their efforts. This has nothing to do with my favorite author.
2. Society is the collection of individuals. So, yeah, a collection of individuals, and yes, society, does reward effort which benefits, and only effort which benefits, them. If a small section of society sees benefit, then so long as they have the appropriate economic force behind them, whatever produces that benefit will be rewarded. Then apply cost benefit analysis.

It's really basic shit here.

>>1439775
>1. The authors who may spend hours on a story and never get published are not compensated for their efforts. This has nothing to do with my favorite author.

Except that your favorite author is obviously doing something those other authors don't. Something you want to encourage him to keep doing. Something you want him to get better at. All of which you can encourage by letting him do his thing professionally - IE with monetary remuneration for his effort. You aren't paying for him to do any old thing, you're paying him to keep doing a thing you like.

>2. Society is the collection of individuals. So, yeah, a collection of individuals, and yes, society, does reward effort which benefits, and only effort which benefits, them...

Except your argument is that you don't have to remunerate the producers of IP which benefits you as an individual and the society of which you are a part, because "like, you can't own ideas, man."

>mfw hunter s thompson was a randoid

>>1439791
Who said my argument is anything? I am describing the law to you, and maybe playing a little devil's advocate here and there. My own opinions on the matter haven't surfaced.

>>1439719
>me downloading the odd album, copying friends' CDs, DVDs and mp3s, playing other people's songs in a bar or whatever are generally not taken to court, and are therefore fine.

And WalMart no longer hires "loss prevention specialists" (ie security guards), so stealing CDs, DVDs, and MP3 players from them is also fine.

>>1439804

I'm sorry, since the arguments you are poking holes in were directed at the "you can't own ideas" comment and the "it isn't wrong if you're not prosecuted" crowd, there was a reasonable assumption that you were on their side.

If you can agree that the purpose of IP law's existence is to encourage the production of "good" (at least as dictated by the market) IP, and that this is a reasonable goal for a community, then that's all I really care about.

>>1439815
You, however, are completely unconcerned with the rest of the landscape of IP it's situated in? Sounds to me like someone just wants to be right and others to be wrong. How about you go jack yourself off elsewhere?

>>1439810
Again, if you are going to base your morality on the law, you either base it on the written law, or you base it on the practiced law.

I mean, do you think it's wrong to break any of these laws?
http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~jimella/laws01.htm

Thompson wasn't an asshole so much as impulsive as shit.
You can tell he just flung himself into crazy situations and didn't really give a fuck where it lead.

>>1439829

No, my arguments here are focused on refuting the idea that "you can't own ideas" and "if I'm not punished, it's not wrong." Going into greater complexity than that on a message board is a giant waste of my time.

The "greater landscape of IP law" is not part of the discussion in which I decided to engage. If it's the discussion you want, more power to you, but you'll be having that discussion with yourself. So enjoy jacking yourself off right here, I suppose.

>>1439791

I agree, especially since I have met over a hundred unpublished authors who are too timid to even try and get published. Ha